 I invite Katie Clark to open the debate around seven minutes, Ms Clark. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I welcome this opportunity to raise serious concerns currently facing the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. I thank all members who signed the motion, which has enabled this debate to take place today, and put on record my gratitude to the Far Brigades Union Scotland for their briefings and tireless campaigning work. Last week, they published the Firestorm Report, a state of the nation report on the fire service, which almost 1,500 serving FBU members in Scotland participated in. It makes grim reading. Over the last decade, there has been a real terms 22 per cent cut to fire service budgets. That amounts to around £64 million in real terms going by the Scottish Parliament's inflation calculator. Over 1,200 jobs have been lost, which is around 15 per cent of the entire workforce, and another 780 are at risk if the Scottish Government proceeds with the planned budgets, according to chief officer Ross Haggart, when he gave evidence to the criminal justice committee. When you speak to firefighters, they tell of less firefighters on every shift and less available for each incident. They often speak of how there are delays when the first appliance has arrived and insufficient firefighters are available to proceed to fight the fire or deal with the incident without acceptable risk. There are delays while they wait for more colleagues to arrive. Isn't it right that the Scottish Government will say that the number of fires has gone down over recent years? The reality is that this is the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, and recent inclement weather and floods have shown the importance of having a diverse responsible fire service that can respond to the needs of the people. Katie Clark. The member is absolutely correct that the challenges that the fire service faces with climate are going to be greater, but also, as I will demonstrate in my contribution, the response times to incidents have been increasing as a result of the budgetary pressures. The number of available appliances across Scotland has also diminished, and the chief officer says that dozens of further appliances will have to be withdrawn if the current planned real-terms cuts proceed. Many stations are in a state of disrepair due to the lack of adequate capital budgets. The impact of all of this is clear. Last year, it was revealed that the average time to attend 999 calls was eight minutes and eight seconds, a significant jump from the six minutes and 50 seconds that was recorded as an average in 2013. That is far from the stated policy intentions set out when the service was centralised. In the policy memorandum that accompanied the Police and Fire Reform Bill in 2012, it said that the intention was not cutting front line services. Chief Officer Ross Haggart has indicated that, as a result of the flat cash budgets, the service will be required to make savings of £36 million across the next four years to balance its budget. In September, second or third appliances were temporarily withdrawn from 10 fire stations across Scotland as part of an £11 million package of cuts for this year. The number of high-reach appliances was reduced, and that means more risk. Since then, concerns have been raised about the increased time for high-reach appliances to attend incidents, for example, in the air, at East Kilbride and elsewhere. Freedom of Information answers recently released to my office showed that full-time fire appliances were off the run—in other words, unavailable £6,272 times in 2022—a 138 per cent increase since 2019. In his evidence to the Criminal Justice Committee, Mr Haggart told us that, if further cuts proceed next year, they may have to reduce the number of appliances by a further 17 per cent. Five fighters have also had a pay cut of about 12 per cent in real terms over the past 10 years. We know that those workers put their lives on the line for us. Earlier this year, firefighter Barry Martin died as a result of injuries sustained in the Jenner's fire. Research shows that firefighter cancer rates are 1.6 times higher than the rest of the public due to the exposure to dangerous contaminants. And yet, in many cases in Scotland, firefighters don't have adequate spaces to wash or adequate equipment. In the Firestorm Survey, many firefighters say that they only have access to baby wipes after incidents. Several describe decontamination as the biggest issue for staff, with others admitting that they are extremely worried about their health. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service have a duty of care to their employees and a duty to provide safe systems of work. I understand that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is currently working on guidelines and I would ask the minister to provide an update to ensure that the service is meeting its legal obligations as an employer. Research by my office found that three quarters of stations are assessed as being of bad or poor suitability, indeed not a single station in the region that I represent is assessed as good. Tackling those issues will take sustained investment and yet there is already a capital backlog of £630 million. The fire service has faced a decade of cuts. Response times have increased and the chief officer says that that will continue to increase if those proposed cuts go ahead. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is failing in its duties to provide a safe system of work as an employer. I call upon the Scottish Government to bring forward an emergency funding package. Ms Clark, we now move to the open debate. There is a lot of interest in this evening's debate. I would be grateful if members could sit broadly to their time allocation. I call first Stuart McMillan to be followed by Shan Dowie around four minutes, Mr McMillan. Thank you very much. I also first want to commend Katie Clark for securing the debate. Since the changes were announced earlier this year, I have been contacted by many people across the constituency, including serving and retired Scottish Fire and Rescue Service officers, FBU members and members of the public. Like all the people who have contacted me, I was concerned about the changes that have been proposed and now enacted. I will focus my comments on my own generic number-clad constituency and share the FBU's concerns with regard to the generic fire station. Following the announcement of the proposals, I wrote to the chief officer, Ross Hagart, along with a few MSP colleagues. I met with the area commander, David McCarrie. I met with serving FBU members and retired the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service members and also almost recently attended a meeting organised and attended by the minister with the assistant chief officer, David Farries. I have listened to what each person has had to say and also read intently the written correspondence that I have received. While I understand that the SFRS rationale for removing the aerial rescue pump and replacing it with a dedicated high-reach appliance at the generic fire station, I do not agree with it. It was explained to me that the aerial rescue pump is deployed often but used infrequently. That might be the case, however. I feel that when the dedicated high-reach appliance is deployed and is needed to fight a fire from above, this will require a pump to supplement this. I also have concerns about that there has been a greater reliance placed on the retained crews and their appliances. The Parliament this afternoon debated the rural and islands action plan. Invercip means bear two villages in the south-western part of my constituency, and they are covered by the retained crews from the Gurwick in my constituency and also Skermerly, the latter being in Kenneth Gibson's Cunningham North constituency. For context, there are proposals to build 650 new properties in the site of the old Invercip. I do not support that proposal, as I believe that it will have a long-term detrimental effect on Inverclyde's economy. Alongside that, the 400 additional homes to be built at Spango valley, which I do support, already has a railway station on site, will increase the future challenges for the Scottish fire and rescue services retained crews in addition to the full-time crew in the Gurwick station. I did pose the question when we had the meeting that the minister hosted. I did pose the question to the assistant chief officer during that meeting that if the Scottish Government were to give the Scottish fire and rescue service extra money today, it would use that to reverse the recent changes in the stations, including Greenock. The answer was no. The money would be used to invest and modernise the service, as he states that those changes are not about saving money. That told me, that clearly indicates that the decisions that have been taken are taken as an operational matter and are not decided by the Scottish Government. Following the meeting, I responded to the FPU setting out my position. The response that I received from the FPU agreed that there is need for modernisation, but the point was made that if extra money would not lead to the changes being reversed, they are in fact not temporary. That is something that I hope that the minister can address in her comments. From my conversations with the serving Scottish fire and rescue service officers, both recently and over my 16 years as an MSP, the service was working well to reduce fires through the increased preventative work. There are 11.3 firefighters per 10,000 of the population in Scotland compared to 6.1 in England. Between 2011 and 2012 and 2021-22, the number of recorded fires in Scotland dropped from 32,339 to 27,771. That is a 14.1 per cent reduction. That demonstrates the role of a fire and rescue service in keeping my constituents and the people across Scotland safer. However, in the eyes of some members of the public, there might be the perception that there is less need for personnel or appliances due to reduction in fires. I do not agree with that. I want the preventative work to increase, as I believe that it has contributed to a reduction in fires. In conclusion, the assistant chief officer told me that he was comfortable with the level of cover that we have in Inverclyde. I am in no way questioning his belief when he said that, but I am also in no way questioning the position taken by my local officers who have shared their concerns. I firmly believe that our emergency services are critical to community safety, and I want to thank every single one of them for their actions in helping to keep my constituents and everyone else in Scotland safe. We owe our gratitude to brave emergency workers who put their lives on the line to protect us. When incidents like the recent blaze at Air Station Hotel occur, firefighters step up to keep us from harm. They deserve our thanks, and as much support as possible from the Scottish Government. I was pleased to meet firefighters locally at both Addrossan and Air Stations to talk to them about the work that they do, offer my support and make sure that they know how valued they are. The fire at Air Station Hotel is just one incident where Scotland's fire service came to save the day, but there are so many others happening all the time, from house fires to road traffic accidents to industrial incidents. Imagine how much worse these situations could turn out if we did not have such brave front-line officers, or if there were not enough of those brave front-line officers, or if they did not have the equipment that they needed, or if they had to wait for specialist appliances to come from far away, or if they were operating out of crumbling stations. Unfortunately, we do not have to imagine those situations because they are happening right now. SNP cuts have left Scotland's fire service on its knees, and you do not have to take my word for it, you just need to read the recent firestorm report. Response times to incidents will inevitably get worse, and why? Because firefighters no longer have the resources they need. The recent firestorm report from Fire Brigades Union revealed a service in crisis. It found that we are already down 1200 firefighters under the SNP, and in the next few years, absolutely. Minister. Thank you for taking the intervention. I just like to ask if the member acknowledges that the 36 million savings that is based on the assumption of inflation pay increases is from the resource revenue that is predicted for the next five years, and it is not the actual budget. The Scottish Government has got the biggest block grant that they have ever had, and it is their political choice where they want to go and spend that money, so when they are doing the budget, we need to make sure that the fire service is suitably funded. In the next few years, the service could lose nearly 800 more jobs. We hear a lot of comparisons between Scotland and the rest of the UK, but, as the FPU pointed out, the FM's comments regarding firefighters per head of population fails to recognise the divergence of risk across the home nations. In 2021-22, which is the latest data set, Scotland suffered 5,068 fires per million of population, a significantly higher level of fire incidents than Wales at 3,456 and England at 2,702. A decade of underinvestment means that it would now cost 800 million to bring stations and the wider infrastructure up to the required standard. The FPU report found morale is at a terrible level as firefighters struggle to cope with the scale of the SNP cuts. Firefighters are dealing with the consequences of that in their daily work, but all of us could easily suffer the consequences of those cuts too. Any one of us could be trapped in a nightmare situation and need their help. We do not often think that those moments will happen, but when they do, we all want to note that the fire service will be there to protect us, that there will be enough firefighters with the resources and the equipment to ensure our safety and that they reach us quickly. If the SNP keeps on this path of cutting fire service budgets every year, then there is no doubt that it will increase the risk to public safety. No matter the amazing efforts that firefighters go to, those cuts will increase the danger of accidents and unfortunate incidents, so I urge the SNP Government to think again and reverse cuts, give firefighters the support that they deserve, invest in the service so that it can be there to protect people when trouble strikes, and put public safety high on the agenda and make sure that in an emergency our front-line services can respond swiftly. I thank you for your tenacity and determination in once again raising the grave concerns, not least on public safety grounds, of the cuts being inflicted on the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. I say to Siobhan Brown that the policy of the Scottish Government, of which you are a Minister, was to remove the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service from local democratic accountability. That was the policy, that was the political choice, so you cannot turn up in Parliament and plead that you are not accountable, that these are operational matters. You are the only line of democratic accountability which is left to the people we represent, and that is the choice of your Government, so you cannot wash your hands of it. The Fire Brigades Union's outstanding new report, Firestorm, reminds us that when the single fire service was created, the Scottish Government promised that it was about, I quote, stopping duplication of support services and not cutting front-line services, but that is precisely what we are witnessing today. So let no one try and tell us that these are operational choices, they are political choices. The political choice to impose a disastrous flat cash settlement on Scotland's Fire and Rescue Service, the political choice over the last decade to cut in real terms the fire service budget by 22%, the political choice with the result that over 1,000 jobs have been axed, another 800 are now at risk and the retained duty system is in crisis. So when we are told that the removal of high-reach appliances is about a modernisation of the service, we do not believe it. When we are told that the removal of appliances is temporary and not permanent, we frankly do not believe that either. We see it for what it is, another attempt to subvert then sidestep the democratic process. So I say to the minister that we are not having it, the fire crews like those I met at the Hamilton station recently, they are not having it, their trade union is not having it and our communities are not having it either. And then there is the IT system catastrophe. In recent months I've taken up with the minister the reckless waste of public money on a new command and control IT system for the service with a value of over £12 million. I've been told that these are also operational matters, but at least £1.7 million has been squandered in milestone payments for a system that was first ordered in June 2014, supposed to have been delivered in March of this year but which was scrapped in December of last year. And now over £18,000 has been spent on external legal fees alone. With next to nothing to show for it except for mounting legal costs, this is a failure on a monumental scale and the government is asking us to place our faith in the same people who now want to cut back on appliances. I know that the Scottish Government will blame Tory austerity for much of this and they have a point, but whatever Jeremy Hunt announces, this Parliament has in train a process of setting our own budget, a budget of over £40 billion. So this evening I call on the minister for victims and community safety to do your job, protect our communities, keep them safe, stand up for your department, stand up for this service, listen to what is being spelled out by the Fire Brigades Union, fight your corner and let some decisive political leadership before it's too late. Thank you. I now call Maggie Chapman to be followed by Stephen Kerr up to four minutes, please, Ms Chapman. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and my thanks to Katie Clark for securing this evening's debate. Before I begin, I want to apologise to you, Presiding Officer, to Katie Clark and to the chamber. I'll have to leave very shortly after speaking this evening, but I am glad to be able to participate and I'm grateful to the Presiding Officer for his understanding. In my role as just a spokesperson for the Scottish Greens, it has been a huge privilege to work closely with members of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the FBU. I'm grateful to all of those personnel who have spent time with me talking about the service, showing me around different fire stations and teaching me so much about what they do, the vital, life-saving work they do. I never fail to be inspired and uplifted by the commitment they show to their work, to each other and to the people they serve. Because our fire fighters, fireies, as we affectionately know them, are among the most trusted public sector workers in Scotland. They are welcomed into our homes and communities. We trust them to keep us safe. So I say thank you to all our fireies and operators. Thank you for being there when we need you. Thank you for your commitment to your work. Thank you for walking into danger when most of us would choose to run away. Thank you for being on the phone talking to us when our worst possible nightmares are happening in front of our eyes. We owe our Scottish Fire and Rescue Service personnel our lives. We've heard from others already this evening that the service is already under strain, with too many appliances off the run, shifts not being fully covered, watches having to travel further afield to support other stations, more and more of this happening than ever before. Longer response times, low staff morale, stress at work and more. In conversation with fireies, I've heard so many stories of near misses, things that nearly went wrong with tragic consequences but didn't, just. Thanks usually to their ingenuity, commitment and dedication. These near misses do not feature in the modelling or statistics that the service has undertaken or provided. They aren't captured in the data, but they are very, very real. I also know that the service is having to adapt to deal with the increasing risk and severity of wildfires and floods due to climate change. We've seen the realities of that so clearly in recent weeks and months. Earlier this year, I laid a debate on the FBU's DECON campaign, the campaign to raise awareness and get action to ensure that our firefighters can decontaminate effectively after instance so that they do not put themselves or their friends and family at increased risks of cancer, heart attack and other diseases and conditions. I commend Professor Anna Steck for her excellent and on-going work on this. Firefighting is a carcinogenic profession and we need to treat it as such. One part of the service that is not often talked about are the control operators. People might not know this, but these operators will stay on the phone with callers while they wait for firefighters to arrive at an incident for as long as it takes, even if that means the worst outcome for the person on the phone. All of this is taking its toll on the mental and physical well-being of our fire service and staff. All of this puts pressure on already stretched resources and the service does need to evolve and adapt to deal with new challenges and threats, but service redesign and resource allocations have to be done in collaboration, in partnership with those on the front line. We should not have to wait for a disaster or tragedy to happen to ensure that they have the resources they need to do their job safely and effectively. Instead, we must invest in our fire and rescue service. I was proud to host the launch of the FBU's Firestorm report last week, and I urge the Minister to heed the warnings in that report, because they are warnings. We owe our firefighters and the communities they protect, nothing less. I congratulate Katie Clark on her motion, which I was pleased to sign, and I am delighted that she brought that motion to the chamber. I nearly agree with everything that my old sparring partner Richard Leonard had to say in his, as usual, energetic and convincing speech. The reality is that the Governments are responsible for the difficult business of setting spending priorities. That is a reality. Before we hear rebuttals from the front bench about, you know, if you are going to take money from, spend more money here, you've got to take it from here, that same old tired argument that we get from nationalists and green ministers continually, the reality is that the public expects the Government to set true priorities. They expect the Government to do the right thing by them, and despite the wider claims, wilder claims of members in this chamber, there will always be greater demands on public spending than Governments have the resources to satisfy. There is no bottomless pit of money, and to suggest otherwise, is to be fundamentally dishonest with the public. However, I say again that the public rightly expects Governments here and at Westminster to do what is right based on the information that is available to ministers. Government is about making difficult challenges, taking on difficult challenges, and to stop pretending that they do not exist. We do not negate the fact that the Government has to make difficult decisions, but the way that the SNP and green ministers bleed on about how difficult it all is, I wonder whether they have not grown tired of being in the business of Government and making those tough decisions. They certainly come across as a Government that has run out of steam completely. Fundamentally, I believe that the first duty of Government is public safety. Sensible spending priorities begin with the basic obligation of public safety, properly funding and investing in essential public services, and that means the blue light services, the first responders, the people who are there to protect life, to save life and put their own lives on the line to service all. Why does this Government refuse to prioritise services? We have senior officers in the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service telling us that the service is catastrophically underfunded, yet all we have heard. Last week, for example, in First Minister's questions, the First Minister claiming that he and his ministerial colleagues know more about what is happening inside the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service than the people who work in that service. This is the same ignorant dismissal that is given in response to the voices of concern raised in the other essential services that the public expect us to properly fund, most notably Police Scotland and the Scottish justice system, all of which are in crisis. I thank Stephen Kerr for taking the intervention. I surprisingly agree with Mr Kerr on his point regarding putting more money into the services. It is probably the first time that I have agreed on something in the time of Parliament. However, there is also the point of coming back to his earlier comments about the Government's what to take difficult decisions and spending priorities. What budget would he take money from to put more money into that particular area? I have agreed with Mr McMillan on other issues. He is somewhat ungenerous in what he says, but I will have to say to him that he has brought out the same old tarred line about how difficult it is to be in Government. If you cannot stand the heat of the kitchen, you get out of the kitchen. If you cannot be in Government to make governmental decisions and to set priorities, you get out of ministerial office, because that is why you get paid the big money to make these decisions. There have been, frankly, too many examples of ministers in this Government in recent weeks of dismissing, lightly dismissing, the right concerns that people are raising about the state of our public services. In fairness, I have run out of time, but look at the example of what the SNP has done to the fire and rescue service. Just a snapshot of that report that has been quoted quite a few times and the reflections of colleagues. By the way, well done, Katie Clark, on uniting all of us in all the parties in demanding that the Government sit up and pay attention and do something more to fund our essential public services. Fire stations closing, tenders being withdrawn, staff not being trained adequately, response times stretching dangerously, morale in decline—none of this is sustainable. It is time for the SNP Government to prioritise the national interest and not their nationalist interest. I now call Claire Baker to be followed by Jamie Greene in four minutes. I thank my colleague Katie Clark for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I also thank her for a comprehensive description of the state of Scotland's fire and rescue service. I do not have time this afternoon to address the issues of the capital backlog or the health and safety of firefighters, so I will focus on the recent changes that have been introduced to the fire service in my area. The motion itself highlights the temporary withdrawal of appliances, a description that is used by the Scottish fire and rescue service, and it is one that the First Minister also referenced last week in the chamber. However, in my conversation with those within the fire service, it is clear that this is not the case, and the continued claim that it is temporary is at best a misunderstanding and at worst it is disingenuous. Because what is happening to the withdrawal of appliances during this temporary period are firefighters who have relocated as a result of appliance withdrawals, including compulsory transfers, doing so on a temporary or permanent basis. Describing those changes as temporary has allowed the changes to happen very quickly. A change as significant as this would require a consultation, but the scale of the budget cut has required immediate reductions to capacity. The public will only be consulted on the changes if there is an intention to make them permanent, and it is anticipated that that will happen. However, what is being done to assess the impact of those changes ahead of that. The erosion of funding for Scotland's fire and rescue service over a number of years brings us to this point. The case for the shift to a single service in 2013 was that it would protect the front line, but since then we have seen massive job cuts, slower response time and changed conditions of service. The policy aim of a single service was to protect and improve local services despite financial pressures. Can the Scottish Government really argue that that has been delivered? In mid-Scotland and Fife, we have seen second and third appliances removed at Methil, Glenrothes, Perth and Dunfermline. While Cercodi's height appliance was withdrawn literally hours after it was deployed to respond to a fire at former Kitty's nightclub at the start of September. After the serious incident, I was really supposed to accept that it is no longer necessary to have this appliance. Across my region, within the past 12 months, there have been a number of larger fires, including at the New County Hotel and Shore Recycling Centre in Perth, at Kitty's in Cercodi and the Pound stretchers on Leven High Street. The fire at a block of flats in Logheli earlier this month was devastating for residents and for the local community. Thankfully, all those who were in the flats were able to get out safely, but their homes have been ruined and their lives have been turned upside down as a result. This dreadful fire demonstrates the vital importance of the fire service in keeping our community safe, but it also underlines concerns about changes to the service. To extinguish the fire, a high-rise platform from Dunfermline was deployed, now the only such appliance that is in Fife, with an additional height appliance having to be brought from outside the region. Although the fire service states that appliances attending high-rise incidents have always been sent from multiple stations, the removal of the local appliances from Fife will have an impact, whether in terms of response times or in the remaining cover for the surrounding area. We saw that when the fire happened in Logheli when another fire then took place in Leven and because all the crews were in Fife dealing with a very serious fire, in Logheli, a crew had to be sent from Dundee to go to Leven. Assessment work earlier this year found the time taken for second appliances to respond to emergencies would be two minutes and 40 seconds longer for urban areas in Fife, but we know that for those who are trapped in a fire and needing rescue, every one of those seconds will count. This delay also puts increased pressure on the first responder appliances and the firefighters who are having to make urgent decisions about what their response will be. From speaking to those on the front line, it is clear that the changes already made have put them under additional pressure to carry out what was already a very difficult job, but if we continue in the same way, it will only get worse. I am urging the Scottish Government to listen to those on the ground and to improve the funding settlement urgently. As I indicated at the outset, there is a great deal of interest in this debate. I am conscious of the number of members who still wish to participate, so I am minded to accept the motion without notice under rule 8.14.3, to accept the motion without notice, and I invite Katie Clark to move such a motion. The question is that the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes. Are we agreed? Yes. We are agreed, and on that basis I can now confidently call Jamie Greene to be followed by Mercedes Villalba up to four minutes, Mr Greene. Thank you Presiding Officer, and I thank Katie Clark for bringing this debate to the chamber and also to the FBU for their Firestorm report when I attended their event. Last week in Parliament I spoke to some of their reps from the union. He seemed a bit surprised perhaps to see me. He said, we don't often get folk from your benches around here, but I want to be clear to him and all of his members that he has perhaps an unlikely friend on these benches, because let me assure them, every one of them, that we will always stand up for their hard work and their sacrifices to our constituents no matter what our politics and differences may be. The issue that we are debating today primarily stems from the issue of capital underinvestment over a prolonged period of time. That is not a new issue. We have been talking about that for a long time in here. It did not become a 600 million plus backlog overnight. It took many years of chronic underinvestment. I think that the Government acknowledged that. We had a debate earlier this year where we spoke about the decon issue, which Maggie Chapman brought to the chamber. We spoke about the horrendous situation in which many front-line firefighters are in, the lack of basic facilities to shower, to clean fresh water, lack of facilities for female firefighters, the inability to decon properly and the toxins that they are taking home to their families. It is all unacceptable. We all agreed that it was unacceptable at the time. The then Minister for Public Safety, to her credit, acknowledged that and understood that that level of underinvestment had gone on for some time. When we grow the minister further on the budget, on the potential for a flat-cash settlement for four years, if that was a real potential scenario, she made clear to us, and I quote, the current level of funding will be protected. The problem is that it has not been. Because it had been protected properly, we would not be having this debate tonight. We would all be in the garden lobby having a glass of wine. The firestorm report that the FBU brought to us would not have been required in the first place had those budgets been protected. Far from being protected, we are now seeing impossible decisions, now masquerading themselves as operational matters for the fire service, operational in the sense that they are having to do it. Why have they been able to do it? Because committees of this Parliament grilled fire chiefs year after year about the consequences of what a flash flat-cash settlement would look like. I do not disagree with anything that I heard in Stuart McMillan's speech when he spoke about his concerns about the Greenock station. I share many of his concerns. However, I do not agree with the difference of what extra cash would do in making amends. We know that because interim chief fire officer Ross Hager told me and this committee when asked what the flat-cash settlement would actually look like in real terms. His response was worrying. It was worrying to committee and it should be worrying to us even yet today. In his own words, after a four-year period of flat-cash, he said that about 25 per cent of the whole-time firefighting establishment would probably become unaffordable by the end of that four-year period. That has also taken into account five per cent pay rises for the next two years. We are not asking for money for the sake of it. The devastating consequence that capital under investment has is the removal of appliances. It is the removal of retained full-time positions. It is the lack of training. It is the lack of investment in important upgrades for stations. It is all of that. It is not just about pay rises. Pay rises are important. The money has to go to the infrastructure. If the money is not spent, then years down the line, that £600 million will become a billion very, very quickly, and no Government on Earth is going to find a billion pounds down the back of their sofa these days. The local effect that it has on each and every one of our constituents is worrying and it is devastating. It is not a political point that we are making. This is the view of the firefighters themselves. They told us this. It is all on the report. I read it page by page, cover to cover. I hope that the minister did too. We cannot ignore them. We cannot ignore them because all our blue light services are there for when we need them. We should be there for when they need us, Presiding Officer. I thank Katie Clark for securing tonight's important debate on the subject of fire service cuts. Like many others in the chamber, I am compelled to speak tonight out of alarm over reports that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has ordered the temporary withdrawal of fire appliances at 10 stations across Scotland. One of those appliances is set to be removed from Kingsway East fire station in Dundee in my region. Although these changes are reportedly temporary, firefighters and their trade union, the FBU, know all too well how easily temporary solutions become permanent. So, like them, I am extremely concerned by these proposals. I fear the impact they will have on my constituents and the significant risk to both firefighters and the public that these changes will cause. I also fear the impact that a reduction in appliances will have on staff numbers. Staff whose essential skills and expertise could then be lost from the service forever. We know that recruitment and retention are already an issue within the fire service, which has lost 1,100 firefighters in the last 10 years. According to the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service's own financial projections, a further 780 job losses are still to come. Fewer firefighters mean longer response times and greater risk to both the public and firefighters responding to emergency incidents. In the event of any major incident in Dundee, there is very real concern that there simply isn't the cover needed to keep our firefighters safe and protect the public. It is simply not good enough to refer to appliances elsewhere, because mobilising appliances from other stations has an impact on the service's ability to respond quickly, and it could leave those other areas vulnerable. We simply cannot allow further cuts in this emergency service to be taken. It is imperative that the Scottish Government provide immediate and sustained investment in the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to enable it to retain all 10 appliances and maintain the personnel required to staff them. But when I wrote to the Minister for Victims and Community Safety to urge her to act, she was unwilling to meaningfully engage, stating that, quote, operational decisions on the number and location of appliances are entirely a matter for the SFRS board and chief officer, end quote. But these operational decisions don't take place in a vacuum, Minister. They take place within the context of budgets, and it is her Government that sets the fire services budget. At this summer, the SFRS published their organisational statistics for 2022-23. Those statistics show several concerning trends that further highlight the impact of shrinking budgets and firefighter numbers. That report doesn't even include the further cuts that have taken place over the course of the summer. Let's be clear. The problems facing the fire service are the result of chronic underfunding over a sustained period. The service has been operating with a massive double-digit cut in real terms in its budget over the last 10 years, which is why it is in the position it is now. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is an emergency service. It requires urgent investment from the Scottish Government, not cuts. I stand with firefighters, I stand with the Fire Brigades Union and I stand with the public, and we are saying, stop the cuts. Pam Gozel, to be followed by Monica Lennon in around four minutes. I am honoured to contribute to today's important debate on fire service cuts. I thank Katie Clark for bringing the matter forward for members' business. As we have heard from across the chamber today, fire services play a vital role in keeping our communities safe by responding to emergencies and providing medical assistance. They are always there when we meet the most, protecting lives as well as property. I think that we all recognise that they often go far beyond their duty. In my community, they play a huge role in water safety and rescue teams. In East and West Dunbartonshire, we have 45 stations with 460 officers and 120 volunteers, all of whom are truly community safety advocates. Just this year, I was lucky enough to attend a Clydebank fire station open day. There, I met some of the real-life superheroes in our community from the west of Scotland. There were also army cadets in attendance with their vehicles and the ambulance service, as well as members of the community. All in all, it was a fantastic day and a perfect for educating the community. There were lots of activities for people to watch and get involved with, including fire engines with water hose displays, fundraising activities and live chip pan fire display, which caught the attention of everyone at the event. It was great to hear about the impressive multi-agency approach to school education. The timing could not have been more appropriate. In West Dunbartonshire, more than 170 deliberate fires have been recorded in this year so far. That figure is already more than the annual figure in 2022. Play areas, school grounds and nurseries were among the sites being targeted. Those are areas that our children play in and we expect them to be safe. While this open day certainly raised community awareness about the dangers of fire, it also showed everyone the risk that our fire service personnel take every day just to protect us. Just as the motion outlines, they deserve to be well equipped, well resourced, well protected and well paid to do the job that they do, but we know that the SNP has cut the services budget to the bone. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service expected to receive a flat cash budget settlement from the SNP over the next four years. A flat cash settlement will see the fire services have to make millions of pounds worth of cuts, which the firefighters union has warned will threaten the lives, the livelihoods and the homes of everyone in Scotland. All we need to remember—and we need to remember—are already stretched to breaking point. The number of personnel is down, levers are on the rise, attacks on service personnel are up, the number of vehicles at their disposal are down, the majority of buildings that are assessed are being of bad and poor suitability, and there is a huge backlog in the services capital investment. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to outline why the fire and rescue service is vitally important to my community. Quite the opposite of the SNP cuts, our fire service needs to see significant investment. They risk their lives every day to protect our communities and make them a better, safer place to live. I urge the Scottish Government to provide a fair funding deal for our fire and rescue service and return to negotiating table with unions as soon as possible, so that the lives, homes and livelihoods of Scots are not put at risk. Our fire and rescue service deserve better treatment than this. I am grateful to my Scottish Labour colleague Katie Clark for securing this debate. From listening to Ms Clark and the other speakers, I think that it is very clear why this debate is so necessary. I am also grateful to Maggie Chapman for hosting last week's FBU Scotland event, which did indeed launch the firestorm report. For me, firestorm is more than a report, it is a call to action and government must act. The truth is that firefighters do not feel supported or valued. Scotland's firefighters feel abandoned and ignored. After last week's First Minister's questions, I fear that they will feel more frustrated than ever. Let's recap hundreds of firefighters, FBU members and other supporters gathered outside this Parliament last week, demanding that MSPs and ministers listen to them, understand and act. Instead, in this chamber, we heard the same predictable spin from the First Minister when we need honesty, because those cuts are costing lives. The reality is that £57 million has been cut in real-time since 2012. 1200 firefighter jobs scrapped, response times increased and five control rooms closed and an increasing number of fire appliances are unavailable. I am glad that the firestorm report has been published, because it is not the voices of MSPs or ministers, it is the voice of serving FBU Scotland members. I urge all colleagues to read it, because when you read it, it is a menu of cuts, lack of recruitment, crisis and retained service, decline in training standards and the necessity of responding to the climate emergency. All of that has created the perfect conditions for a devastating firestorm. Like colleagues, I am here because this is affecting my constituents and my local community now. Mercedes Villalba talked about Dundee. In my case, Hamilton, where we have lost our temporary appliance—we do not know when we are going to get it back—is having an impact on crews in their families right now, as Richard Leonard also can speak to. We have had a devastating fire in East Kilbride recently. That is six homes that have been destroyed. That is six families that have been put at the heart of this. Luckily, no lives were lost, but we have heard that the cuts have had an impact on response times, so public safety is being compromised. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is not well-equipped to respond to the demands of the climate emergency. Our firefighters need appropriate PPE, equipment and training to tackle wildfires. We need to expand capacity to deal with the predicted increase in flooding incidents, and the capital budget must be increasing significantly if the service is to meet the demands of net zero targets. I know that members of the FBU are proud of the work that they do, but are they proud of us? I do not think so, so no ifs, no buts and no more fire service cuts. Thank you very much indeed, and I call on Siobhan Bryan to respond to the debate minister around seven minutes, please. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Let me start by paying tribute to all the firefighters who work hard and play a vital role in keeping our communities safe. It is clear from the comments tonight that we are all aware of the important service plays through working in partnership with others and preventing and responding to emergencies to improve the safety and the wellbeing of the people throughout the whole of Scotland. The bravery and the passion of our firefighters has never been in question, and I do not recognise the negative picture of the service that has been painted by others this evening. I am confident that the Scottish Fire Rescue Service has and will continue to deliver the high standard of service to keep our communities safe. I would like to make a little bit of progress if I can. I have a lot to address with all the debates and all the contributions for tonight, if I may, Presiding Officer. I would like to turn now to some of the issues raised starting with the budget. Since 2017-18, there has been a substantial year-on-year increases in funding to support a modern and effective fire and rescue service, and the budget for 23 to 24 the Scottish Government provided the Scottish Fire Rescue Service with a total of £14.4 million additional funding, bringing the total funding to £368 million this year despite the challenging financial environment we are currently in due to the UK Government austerity and inflation. It is clear that all our public services have been hit by these inflationary pressures. This has meant that the SFRS has had to look at making efficiencies to deliver a balanced budget, and this is across every single portfolio at the moment. Whilst we have a cash increase in 23 to 24 budget of £1.7 billion, the impact of sustained inflation meant in real terms the block grant at the time the budget was set was 4.8% lower than it was in 2021 to 2022. The UK Government's autumn statement must take more substantive action to increase investment in the services that people rely on and in turn feed into our budget so that we can better align spending and deliver for the people and the organisations across the whole of Scotland. While Scotland's public finances are tethered to the decisions of the Westminster Government, we will always be working with one hand behind our back. We must balance the budget each year and we are committed to doing that with all the powers at our disposal to ensure public finances are on a sustainable path. In relation to future budgets, as Members know, that will be part of our annual budget. Thanks to continued UK Government austerity, these are difficult financial times and money is likely to continue to be tight for the next year. We have limited levers available to us to increase our spending power in the face of the UK Government's failure to ensure public spending responds to the real challenges facing everyone's life. We recognise this means taking tough choices to ensure that our resources are focused on the three critical missions outlined in the policy prospectus and driving reform to secure value for money for the taxpayer. The financial position on the capital funding is equally challenging and I'm sure that we would all like to see the fire service along with transport infrastructure, schools, prison, hospitals or receive additional funding. This illustrates the difficult choices that need to be made on the allocation of scarce resources. We have maintained the SFRS capital budget of £32.5 million and we will continue to strive to provide SFRS with the funding it needs to ensure firefighters have the equipment and the buildings that they need to keep safe. If I could turn to pay and firefighter numbers, I'm pleased to say in February 2023 firefighters accept an improved two-year pay offer at 7% for 22 to 23 and 5% for 23 to 24 to run to the end of June 2024. We are maintaining frontline services with the highest number of firefighters, other in the other parts of the UK. At 31 March 2022, there are 11.3 firefighters per 10,000 population in Scotland to 6.1 in England and 8.4 in Wales. A number of members have brought up the issue of the number on location of fire appliances. The number needed to keep communities safe is obviously an operational matter for the Scottish Fire Rescue Service, and I do hear Richard Leonard's points, but I'm sorry it would be totally inappropriate for me to get involved with operational budget. Yes, is Scottish Government operational decisions? No. I am aware that Scottish Fire Rescue has recently withdrawn 10 appliances. It is important to highlight that these changes are not all about saving money. By withdrawing appliances in a planned and measured way, the Scottish Fire Rescue Service can ensure that full crews are available so that more appliances can always be available to keep communities across Scotland safe. The operational changes were implemented at the start of September, and the Scottish Fire Rescue has provided to MSPs that the operational changes were chosen to minimise the impact on communities. In some areas, as we know, there has been an over provision of resources in comparison with the rest of the country, and it is right for the Scottish Fire Rescue to look to deliver on an effective and efficient services that deliver value for money for taxpayers on the public purse. His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Fire and Rescue Service in Scotland has provided independent assurances that these temporary changes are based on a robust analysis of activity level, historical demand and the ability to supplement any initial responses with an acceptable time. I would like to give to Stuart McMillan and also Mercedes Villalba that this morning I was in Aberdeen for the annual performance of the Scottish Fire Rescue, where this was brought up and they did consult that there would be a full public consultation to any public, any permanent changes, and to Claire Baker just on your comments regarding is it being reviewed, they are constantly reviewing and I have had insurance from SRF areas on the river withdrawal of the 10 appliances. It's also important to note that these changes are being made in the context of the fire and fire deaths in all domestic premises reducing in the last 20 years. Claire Baker. Claire Baker. Thank you very much. While there might be a view taken place, if the review comes back to see, actually we do need those appliances, are the Scottish Government going to fund that? The operation is for the Scottish Fire Rescue, it would not be for the Scottish Government to do it. So they are reviewing it and they will, in September after one year, it will go to a public consultation if they want to. Minister, could you resume your seat a second, can I ask you to resume your seat? As all members in this chamber will know, it's up to the member on their feet whether or not they take an intervention. That is not an invitation for other members to start having bilaterals across the chamber. Minister. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I do have a lot to get through but I do want to say in context of fires and fire deaths in all domestic premises reducing, they have reduced in the last 20 years and statistics out today show that there were 26,825 fire incidents in 2022 to 2023, a decrease of 3.5% on the previous year. There's been a 11.9 decrease in the number of primary fires over the last 10 years and dwelling fires have been consistently reducing over the last 10 years of the 26.1 reduction since 2012 to 2013. Presiding Officer, I do want to address some of the member's points. Is that all right? I don't know how I'm going for time. I can give you additional time here. Thank you. Just Katie Clarke, if I could just get to you with the capital backlog. As I have mentioned, we did protect, even though we had a cat flash settlement, we did protect the capital investment this year at 32.5 million and there's five fire stations currently being refurbished this year. We will continue to work with Scottish Fire Rescue to identify the capital funding it needs for its building fleet and equipment. Richard Leonard, as I said, it would be inappropriate for me to get involved in operational matters, but the Scottish Government is responsible for the budget. Maggie Chapman, just regarding the FBU Firestorm report, the majority of the points raised in the FBU report, including the allocation of resources, along with the recruitment, retention and training of firefighters, are a matter for SFRS to consider and address, but we do, after reading the report, there are a lot of issues in the report, which the Scottish Government do agree with, such as keeping the community safe, believing that bullying and harassment is always unacceptable. We want to see our firefighters receive a fair pay, so there's a lot in the report that the Scottish Government does believe in, and also Mercedes Villalba. The member did not accept my invitation herself. I've been meeting with MSPs during recess and for the last few months with SFRS, so I extend the invitation again if you'd like to meet more than happy to meet you. I would like to address Pam Gossel's point of getting around the table with the FBU. I've met the FBU in June, met the FBU last week and I'm meeting him again next month, so it's not an issue of not getting around the table with the FBU, always having discussions with them. I will conclude. Scottish Fire Rescue Service is a service that continues to perform well, and I firmly believe that it is in everyone's interest to have an efficient and effective service. The Government will ensure that fire rescue is a priority now and in the future, so let me finish where I started by commending all those who work in the Scottish Fire Rescue Service and thanking our firefighters for their dedication and work day and night to keep the people and communities safe. Thank you.