 Thank you. Thank you, Johnny. And thanks, everybody, for being here today for this event. And let me just say a quick word of appreciation to Johnny Carson, who really has spearheaded this project and USIP's Putting Nigeria at the, near the top of our list around the world. And to Oge Onobogo, where is she? Oge? Where's Oge? Well, Oge, who deserves an enormous amount of credit for putting this program together. And I would say put the meat on the bones of this project by working tirelessly to bring it together. So thank you both and thanks everybody who's been participating. This panel, which we renamed, if you have an old program, you don't have the right title. This panel is now titled Good Governance, Justice, Democracy, or Economic Opportunity, or Must It Be All Three? And we want to pick up on the excellent discussion in the first panel, where people talked about what makes societies more or less resilient. There was a discussion of exclusion and widespread inequality. There was talk of the need for people to have voice, to have a voice in decision making. We're going to, in this panel, we're going to try and focus on what are the responsibilities of good governance. And what we've all agreed upon is that we're going to stay away from platitudes. We're going to try and delve down into what do we mean by good governance? Do we mean justice? Do we mean democracy? Do we mean development? What is most important? And in particular, what are we saying to people in office and governors in particular in northern Nigeria, but elsewhere, when everybody says to them, good governance is important, what is it that they should do most, and what is in their power to do? So with that background, let me introduce this really fine panel. We have Professor Adihiro Mohamedu Jega. Professor Jega is, I think, known to, should be known by now to everyone, was leader of the Invented Nigerian Electoral Commission for the election of 2015. He has a long distinguished history as a academic, particularly associated with Bayero University, where he is today, a professor of political science. He has taken his experience and expertise around the world. Most recently, he's been to Ghana. Three times, he tells me to Kenya in relationship to the recent elections there, a real outstanding combination of scholar and activist. And I've asked him to start dealing with the political aspects of good governance. What do we mean by that in terms of justice or democracy or elections? And then next will be Kingsley Mohalu. Kingsley is an extraordinarily prolific scholar, writes continuously and speaks his book Emerging Africa, which I would recommend is really an outstanding assessment of the meaning of governance, particularly with regard to development, but in the broadest sense of the word. Kingsley was the deputy governor of the central bank in Nigeria. He was very recently named by UNCTAD to the Intergovernmental Group of Experts on the financing of development. And he has a number of distinguishing, distinguished connections to Fletcher and other academic institutions. Now, and then, and he had asked Kingsley to speak to the development aspects of good governance. What does that mean? And what's feasible and practical in terms of the situation in Nigeria? And then my colleague and friend, Sandra Clark, who is the director of the West Africa Office of the State Department, has a long career. She has previously served as deputy of our mission into car. She has worked on Europe. She has worked on Asia. She's worked really around the world. The most important thing, of course, is she worked with me in Nigeria a long time. But Sandra is an extremely fine officer with a great deal of experience in the economics of development and politics. So Sandra, thank you. And I've asked her to speak a little bit to how the U.S. government looks at the issue of good governance. And what does that mean in terms of when we provide support or advice? So let me begin, if I will, with Ambassador Jaeger. And thank you again for participating. Thank you very much, Ambassador Lehmann, and distinguished ladies and gentlemen. It's a pleasure to be back at USAIP and to participate in this very important discussion on peace in Nigeria, how to build it, and America's role in this. I want to preface my contribution to the discussion on governance with what I consider to be an excellent framework presented by Dr. Jibrin Ibrahim in the earlier panel. And in particular, the fact that Nigeria has been constructed by British colonial authorities on the notions of unity in diversity. And what is clear is that throughout Nigeria's history, one of the major challenges has been the management of that diversity. The second issue which he clearly articulated is that it was also built on the premise of being a democracy. Of course, that was challenged for a long time, not only by crisis, but also by a long history of military rule. But since 1999, for almost 19 years now, Nigeria has been through a democratization process, unbroken, by previous tendencies of military incursions into politics. But still, that transition to democracy has been very tumultuous. The democratic institutions and the processes are very weak and very fragile. And of course, in spite of these 19 years or so of democratization. And I think the consequence of all this is that the state itself has been ravaged by bad or poor governance. And there is no doubt, I think in the mind of most Nigerians, if not all Nigerians and friends of Nigeria, that good democratic governance is required, both for the management of diversity and for addressing the fundamental needs and aspirations of our people. And of course, to have good democratic governance, we would require visionary, inclusive leadership. We would also require strong institutions for deepening democracy, for managing diversity, and of course, for demanding transparency and accountability of leadership, of government, and of institutions of governance. So I think the key question as framed by Ambassador Lehmann is then what is good governance and how do we understand it in the context of Nigeria and in the management of violent conflicts and for building peace? Obviously, good governance is one of those concepts that are quite opaque. But to me, I think whatever else good governance can be said to mean, I believe that first and foremost, it is about an elected leadership that competently and judiciously harnesses societal resources and utilizes these through governmental institutions to equitably address and satisfy what I call the fundamental needs and aspirations of citizens. So to satisfy these fundamental needs and aspirations of citizens, obviously, it means that we have to go back to the basics and interrogate the question of what is the fundamental role of the state in terms of satisfying the fundamental needs and aspirations of the people. And I think those of us who are familiar with the theories and discussions on the role of the state, particularly in the liberal democratic context, know that one of the key roles of the state is protecting lives and properties of citizens. Secondly, it is regulating a broad range of relationships within the framework of the rule of law. And thirdly and also most importantly is what I call provisioning of public services to address collective human needs, whether in the areas of education or health or social welfare services or even in policing in addressing the issue of security of lives and property. So, hence, I believe that good governance is both about and coming back to the key question, I think with this definition, good governance is both about democracy, about justice and equity and also about economic development. Poor or bad governance, I believe, is when political leadership is characterized by lack of competence, by lack of capacity and efficiency in harnessing societal resources through governmental institutions to address those fundamental needs and aspirations of the people. So, I think the challenge in countries with deficit in governance and certainly with countries like Nigeria is associated with at least three things. One is how to nurture and deepen democracy and its institutions. And this is very, very important, whether in the management of diversity or in harnessing resources to meet the needs and aspirations of the people. The second area has to do with how to reform governmental institutions for competence and capacity with responsibility and responsiveness in addressing those needs of the people. And the third area relates to how to strengthen the rule of law and the role of the adjudicative regulatory institutions such as the judiciary and so on and other agencies of government. And in a country such as Nigeria, I think all these issues come to prominence. And if we talk about the need for good governance and that's why I've qualified it good democratic governance. Because I think in discussion of good governance, we tend to forget that there was a time in history when authoritarian regimes in Southeast Asia were models, you know, because you can provide development and provide needs of the people, but without inclusion and the participation in the process. And I think clearly that model has been shown to be not only out of date but counterproductive. And what we require is a democratic basis for good governance. Because that is the only way you can harness societal resources and you can use efficiency and effectiveness to equitably apply these resources in meeting those fundamental needs and aspirations of the people. So I think in Nigeria, really to move in the direction of good governance, we have to seek to increasingly improve the competence in leadership because there is clear deficit in leadership competence for quite a number of reasons which time will not permit to go in. So we have to constantly interrogate how to get competent visionary leadership that has the capacity and the competence to really deliver the expectations of people in governance. And also how to continuously reform the leadership selection processes. And this is why I bring the issue of electoral integrity. I think obviously the electoral process in many countries that are in transition to democracy have somehow lacked that capacity to help the selection process in bringing about this visionary, competent and effective leadership. And unfortunately, I think for a long time also, many theorists of electoral democracy have tended to assume that once you have regular periodic elections, then that is good for democracy. And not considering the fact that it is not elections per se that are really important but the integrity of the conduct of elections. Because otherwise, you won't get what is required in terms of the delivery of good governance and all of the positive things that come with it. So I believe that really in the Nigerian context we have to pay attention to that. I think in the last few years we've been able to break the cycle of very bad conduct of elections, not only by the consensus that has emerged within Nigeria amongst stakeholders for the significance of having credible elections, but also with the support of the international community. And so we've come some way, but the challenges are still there. And I think the greatest challenge is how do we ensure that there is not a reversal to the old tendency of bad conduct of elections? And how can we keep on improving upon what we've already been able to achieve? And how do we continue to address still mounting challenges in terms of a sustainable process of credible elections? So really for me, this is a very, very important issue for our desire, for good governance in our country, for good leadership, and for addressing managing diversity and also addressing issues of violence, violent conflicts, and for peace in our country. The other issue, apart from focusing on electoral integrity, and it's an issue again that Dr. Jibrin Ibrahim raised in his contribution, police sector reform. I think you cannot protect lives and properties in a country like Nigeria with the kind of policing arrangement that we have. When clearly the police is ineffective, is inefficient, is riddled by all sorts of challenges, and we have to continue to rely on the military to do policing duty and their own actions and preparations and training further complicates matters in terms of violation of rights and and, you know, feeding into the questions of ethnicity and religion and other identities. So I think this is an area that for long requires fundamental tackling, but which for a long time we haven't been addressing. I think security sector reform generally, but addressing policing is fundamental to the Nigerian state being able to discharge that role of protecting lives and property and ensuring compliance with the rule of law. Protecting citizens, you know, to discharge their obligations and to also enjoy their rights and duties as citizens. And if you don't have an effective policing, you cannot protect, you cannot enforce laws and you cannot also create that environment that is required for the expression of rights and the defense of these rights. And obviously, restoration of increasing equity and justice in the governance process is important. So obviously a focus also on justice reforms, the judicial process for adjudication, for enforcing regulatory frameworks is also very important. I think specifically one can say that Nigeria has come a long way in electoral reforms, but they are still formidable challenges and the striving for electoral integrity has to be sustained and strengthened, especially as everybody has been talking about, we approached the 2019 general elections. And we also have to address these issues of institutional strengthening, you know, that can help the process of having good democratic governance in our country. Thank you very much. Professor, thank you very much. You've raised a number of really important concepts that I know we want to come back and discuss more. Kingsley, can I turn to you please? Thanks. Thank you. Thank you very much, Princeton. And Johnny, thank you for this conference. Thank you for the invitation. I'd like to, before I make my remarks, also to just recognize and express my respects to his eminence, Cardinal John Onayekon and the Sultan of Sokoto, Saad, represented by Dr. Osman Bughaje. Let me say that what I want to say here is really not addressed to the government or to our political leaders. I want to say a few things, some of which will be explosive, and I want to address them to the Nigerian people. Therefore, the memo is to the people. The memo is no longer to the government because the government or our governments, I think, have shown that they do not have the capacity to take Nigeria to the next level. We come to these meetings and we celebrate the fact that Nigeria is still standing, that we're still one country, that we're still existing. We defied the predictions of US intelligence analysts that in 2015 Nigeria will go bust and we think we're making progress. 57 years, 50 of independence, and this is the kind of discussion we're still having. We should be ashamed of ourselves, includes those who have supposedly been leading us and those of us who are the lead. We should be ashamed of ourselves because we haven't done what we should do. Power in any democracy belongs to the people. Therefore, the real challenge that Nigerians and Nigerian citizens have now is to exercise their power and exercise that power to bring about the type of leadership in Nigeria that can take Nigeria into the future. The leadership we have now simply is not wired to achieve that aspiration. Why is this so? The process that produces Nigeria's political leaders is a process that is not based on competence. It is not a process that is based on vision. If there's any vision, I'd love to hear it. It's not a process that shows an understanding of what leadership actually means. As Professor Jager has said, there's need for real leadership to have vision. There's need for leadership to be able to inspire and mobilize citizens to a desired future state. There's need for a leader to be able to organize citizens. That's the organizing principle, to be able to actually achieve concrete goals. All of that is absent. What we have is a process that's based on ethnicity, it's based on religion, based on vested interests, and every cycle they come to power to perpetuate their misrule. Let me make a few comments about the economy. 57 years after independence, our GDP per capita is $1,600 and something. This is Nigeria, supposedly the biggest country in Africa. We need, first of all, to bring about a new leadership class in Nigeria. The current political leadership class, I think they've let's just be polite and say they've done the best they know how. We can invite them to go into retirement. We need a new leadership generation in Nigeria. Otherwise, all these things we're discussing here will end up just theories. That's why this memo is to the citizens. It's for the citizens to actually act in the collective interests of our country. Now, Princeton, in the framework he set out for the discussion, talked about whether we need justice, democracy, and economic development, justice, democracy, and development. Almost we have all three. Of course we must have all three. Development and progress, these are interlocked processes. If you don't have justice, the protests, the feelings of indignation, the feelings of exclusion lead to destabilization, and that's what we're having in Nigeria today. We're talking about democracy, but we don't have justice in Nigeria. It's obvious we don't have justice. That's why the country is very tense. There are lots of separatist agitations, and people are feeding into these agitations simply because they've given up hope that they can ever be justice. That's what's feeding the agitations. There's nothing else. It's the absence of justice. You can't have peace without justice. Now, if you are able to establish justice, then you can talk about running your democracy the way it should be run, as Professor Jagger has said, the integrity of electoral processes. But if the purpose of democracy is all politics but no leadership, how do you think electoral processes can be fair? Because the purpose of politics is not for the people's will to prevail. The purpose of politics is for vested interests to prevail and entrench those interests further. So justice is important, democracy is important, and development is important. A lot of people are feeding or participating in the separatist agitations or in the activities that are destabilizing to the security of the country because they do not have economic security. And so you cannot separate these things. That's the point I'm trying to make. 29 million people out of jobs, out of jobs in Nigeria, they're unemployed, and this is a conservative statistic figure, statistic. So when you invite them to become parts of militias to blow up oil pipelines, they're willing and ready. What else is there for them to do? When you invite them to declare a Biafran enclave, what else is there for them to do? It's because they have no hope. So I believe that our number one task in Nigeria is for the people of Nigeria to really rise up, exercise their democratic rights as citizens, and begin to look at leadership selection with very different lenses. For that to happen, we must be able to move beyond the things that divide us and focus a lot more on the things that unite us. We must now want different things. We must now think differently. We must now want different kinds of people to lead us to produce those different things that we now want. Again, this memo is to the citizens. And so educating the citizens for them to take up their responsibility to say, look, we want a leader who can give us inclusive economic growth, not just GDP growth. GDP growth is important. But in and of itself, that does not result in economic transformation. It's inclusive economic growth that brings about economic transformation. So I would like to say that the focus in Nigeria, a country of 180 million people, should be on all these three things at the same time. Justice, democracy, economic development. But that cannot happen until and unless we have the right kinds of leaders. No one can give what they do not have. If you don't, you know, as a man think it, so is he. So we should begin to look at, in the political process, people who think and act in certain ways that are consistent with the possibility that we can create a different future for our country. If we continue to do business the way we've been doing it, we can have a lot of conferences and talk a lot about Nigeria. But in another 10 to 20 years, it will still be fundamentally the same problem. So I conclude by saying the memo is to the citizens of Nigeria, rise up and take action. Vote in good competent leaders who are visionary, who understand what leadership means, who have economic competence. In a number of African countries, we've seen results. Because leadership in the context of Africa must be result oriented and it must be transformational. We've seen what is happening in countries like Botswana, Mauritius, Rwanda, Ethiopia. I know there are controversies over rights and political spaces. But there is progress because there is some level of competence. There's some level of understanding what makes an economy actually grow inclusively. And that's what I think we need in Nigeria. We have very entrepreneurial citizens, very dynamic. And then let me also say that if we don't address, and this comes back to justice, if we don't address the issue of restructuring Nigeria, it's going to be very difficult for our economy to actually grow in an inclusive way. Because the model, the constitutional model we have is fundamentally geared against economic transformation. It's a model that is based on sharing oil rents. It's not a model that is based on building wealth. So if you don't change that model, it's going to be difficult. So it's very foundational. Thank you. Kingsley, thank you as always. You're provocative and raising some very fundamental issues. Thank you. Sandra, can I turn to you? Please, thanks. Well, first let me thank you Ambassador Lyman and USIP for the invitation to participate in this panel. It's an honor for me to be here among such distinguished panelists. And I very much have enjoyed the morning so far. So thank you. The United States government looks at Nigeria and sees a country with enormous potential, but also a country with great risk of falling short of that potential. And I would say that governance is what, or good governance perhaps, is what will make the difference and what would tip the scale in either direction. Nigeria is already Africa's most populous country, and it is projected to be the world's third largest by 2050. That trend brings enormous opportunity to Nigeria, but only if the population is healthy, productive, educated, and contributing to a prosperous and peaceful Nigeria. If, on the other hand, the next generation of Nigerians feel that they have few opportunities or that their government is not responding to their needs, and if there is a widening gap between rich and poor, or if they don't feel safe, then there is a great risk of increased instability and unrest. You asked us, Ambassador Lyman, to think about the definition of governance. And I listened carefully to my fellow panelists and how they talked about governance. And we, in my office, did some research about governance and had a discussion as well about what does it mean. And I think what definition should we use for governance? I think, to my personal view, at its core, governance is about the relationship between citizens and their elected officials and government. And so I see good governance as institutions that are and are perceived as acting fairly and effectively to respond to the needs of the population. The State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development, we see our job in this context as supporting Nigerian-led efforts to build more effective accountable institutions that are responsive to the Nigerian people. And to help Nigerians build the institutional capacity needed to support this highly educated and healthy and productive population, the United States invests about half a billion dollars a year in foreign assistance, which is one of our largest bilateral assistance programs in sub-Saharan Africa. As Under Secretary Shannon said earlier this morning, the Free and Fair 2015 election was a turning point in America's relationship with Nigeria. And it is critical that Nigeria build on that momentum as the country heads into state elections and then the general elections in 2019. As we have in the past, the United States is ready to support free and fair and peaceful elections to expand current technical assistance for elections institutions and civil society organizations and to use our convening power to foster stronger collective engagement in support of a transparent inclusive electoral process. But free and fair elections, they are an important part of democracy and government legitimacy as they give citizens a say in who represents them and an opportunity to change. But also important is the effective and fair implementations of the policies between those elections. We hear from Nigerians that the drivers of conflict are poverty and unemployment, corruption and a sense that they are not being listened to, that they are excluded from the governance systems. And we hear this from Nigerians across Nigeria, from the Northeast to the Middle Belt to the Southeast to the Niger Delta. Good governance is not only essential to Nigeria's future stability but also to its economic growth. The two are interconnected. Throughout my career, which has been primarily as an economic officer, I've seen how important governance is to businesses and investors. Good governance means predictable economic policies and transparent and well functioning judicial systems. And I think Nigerians know how important good governance is for their future prosperity. Polling tells us that Nigerians believe their leader's top priorities should be improving the economy, creating jobs and addressing corruption. Security falls behind those three priorities. Nine in 10 Nigerians believe corruption is a serious problem but over 60% are optimistic that that can change. The U.S. works to support Nigeria's economic growth at national and state levels. This includes support to small and medium businesses and also efforts to expand the power sector. We are helping Nigeria, excuse me, recover assets stolen under previous regimes and also building the capacity of civil society organizations that audit governance expenditures and demand accountability. So in conclusion, I'd like to say that we see good governance as fundamental to sustained sustainable resolution of conflict throughout Nigeria and fundamental to Nigeria's continuing to flourish as a democracy and an economic powerhouse. We see good governance as the factor that will ensure that the Nigeria of 2050 is one that has achieved its full potential. Thank you very much. If I may take the first question here and because you've raised this question about a somewhat pessimistic view of the current leadership class and think it needs to be changed but radical changes in leadership classes are not easy to achieve and in democracies like our own here in the U.S. you often elect people and you wonder how they got elected but they get elected and people tinned in you to vote for them. So I want to turn to you Professor because you've pointed out something I think is very important and you did too, how important are the institutions? How important is it to improve those institutions steadily, the integrity of elections, not only the integrity of elections but you all mentioned competency, managerial capacity and you don't have to be a great Democrat or even a great leader if you are a good manager of those things which matter to people. So I wonder if you could comment a little bit on how does one bring about change or even improvement in existing class through institutional development? Thank you very much. There is I believe absolutely no doubt that building institutions and strengthening them in terms of their competence and capacity to discharge their core mandates in governance is very, very essential because even if you have leaders with all the good intentions they can't get much done if the institutions are so weak and so fragile and so incompetent and lacking in capacity to drive a process of change. It's not an either or situation but obviously reforming institutions in fragile democracies it's one of the most important requirements for sustainability of the democratic transition and also for the emergence of good governance. In terms of how to do it we shouldn't forget that for example in the Nigerian context and this may apply to many other countries there was a period in time when the recklessness in governance with the support I regret to say of some of the leading global financial institutions has led to the depopulation of the technocratic class either through voluntary exit and a brain drain or through the syndrome of if you can't beat them join them and by compromising professional competence in the service of mediocratic leadership and you have a situation in which things have been so bad for so long that the basic professional competence required in a bureaucratic setup really is lacking in many of these countries. So it's a fundamental challenge to begin to revive these institutions to reform them and to through training and better recruitment processes you know and a lot of other creative measures of really building that I believe is a foundation you know reforming this leadership selection process helps because you need that leadership to provide coordination and direction with the vision to move but if institutions are not reformed and strengthened you know leadership will come with all the good intention and lack the capacity to really substantially move forward. So how do you do it is there are no easy solutions but I always say going back to the basics it's very very important and what is going back to the basics you know understand that there is a deficit in technocratic and bureaucratic competency and even in the organizational setup of a lot of our institutions and they begin to revive that process you know of course driven internally but with the support you know and again we need to avoid the mistakes of the past because in the past reforming of institutions driven are great again to say by World Bank for example and the other institutions would mean flying in experts who would come and do this you know but there is a lot of local expertise that in partnership can drive these reform processes so it's very very important to recognize this and to pay appropriate attention to it. I'll let you comment but let me add a question to you because you've talked about the fundamental structure of the economy which you've demonstrated in others is based on basically a venture economy based on oil and even the states all exist on that kind of thing so we talked in the first panel about more power in the states do the states have the power to do anything about the structure of the economy since they live off that same venture I just add that to whatever I think. I'd like to address the question by coming back to one basic fact we witness to the economic problems Nigeria is having and has had after 57 years of independence but we know that Nigeria has the highest arguably the highest level of human capital in the African continent brilliant economists local international they are not lacking and yet we are where we are why it comes back to the fundamental question of the leadership political leadership class and the leadership vision and that's why I said and I say it again the memo is to the citizens send them into retirement there is no other way now how do you let's take an example of one institution that I am not exactly unfamiliar with the central bank of Nigeria you have today a central bank that has lost completely its independence because it is under a political leadership that obviously this concept is foreign to the instincts of the political leadership are not to allow any institution of the state to be independent of direct political control for the achievement of certain interests the central bank inclusive so a member of the monetary policy committee of the central bank has recently written an explosive statement making clear that the central bank is basically piggy banking the government of Nigeria against its own statute some of you may have read it what's happening about this revelation your guess is as good as mine is are some people bothered about it your guess is as good as mine let us go back to 1999 when Ulushagon Obasanjo there are no perfect leaders anywhere in the world not in America not in Europe certainly not in Nigeria and so the statement I'm about to make does not necessarily ascribe perfection to chief Ulushagon Obasanjo but the truth is that so far since our journey from democracy in 1999 he is the only leader in my view who has shown economic vision it was under his leadership that we established some very important institutions the economic and financial crimes commission the you know central bank independence established legally by the legislature he sent the bill and a number of other institutions so we had what might have been called the golden age of the economy in terms of economic growth working of course with vice president at Iqababaka so but ever since then things have gone downwards so the point I'm trying to make is that if we don't address this problem at the source we can talk about it all day long but it's not going to be addressed because the process that produces leadership in Nigeria is a process that is wired against these goals that we say we have if a leader feels that his ethnic group has been marginalized for so long and the reason he is coming to power is to rectify the marginalization of his ethnic group how can you expect good governance from such a leader it's not possible it is simply impossible because equity cannot exist under such a leader because the DNA is pushing something else it's our turn it's the winner take all and every ethnic group sees leadership selection in this in this context and until we change it and have a leader come up who is Pan Nigerian who has technocratic competence who has a vision who has a world view and knows how to quote unquote manufacture the consent of the Fisi Paros disparate 389 ethnic nationalities in Nigeria we cannot move forward so to your question Princeton and the governors solve the problem without a constitutional amendment some governors will be able to make progress perhaps aided by some natural endowments we know that Lagos has made a lot of progress even on that this this system but Lagos has some natural factors aiding it but without good leadership without competent technocratic leadership Lagos would still not have been able to make use of its endowments again you may say what you like about Bola Tinubu the Jagaban but he began this process and was able to select a leadership succession cycle that has maintained performance in Lagos at a certain level so at the end of the day the leadership is everything and that is why I keep saying the memo is to the citizens so the states about 30 states out of 36 states in Nigeria today are not economically viable they cannot pay salaries how do you get out of that without restructuring the strongest argument for restructuring Nigeria is an economic argument it's not even all the other things much as they are important but just to say that Nigeria under its current constitutional structure based on a rentia economy based on oil a commodity of declining strategic significance cannot rise economically on this model we must we must free this federating units the states and the regions and I believe in the regional approach because that will give you economies of scale a lot of the states were created some would say don't quote me some would say well you know pressure from girlfriends pressure from relatives pressure from friends and yeah okay I'll give you a state and you know so but the point is that so the current state structure many of those states are actually not viable so if you if you devolve if you have a constitutional devolution of powers that could help to some degree and like I think it was wise he said there is some consensus around devolution of powers but devolution of powers is not restructuring no restructuring Nigeria has to go far more beyond that I believe my this is just my own personal suggestion that they have Nigeria has to be based on a regional structure because economically that's how you get economies of scale in the north for example they have massive amounts of solid minerals think of what could happen if those solid minerals were not exported raw so that we don't repeat the sad experience of oil but they were value-added in northern Nigeria think about what could happen in the north think about what would happen in the west think about so so you know the politics the constitutional issues still come back some states can do fairly well with competent governors but broadly speaking the structure is weak and cannot sustain an economic rise I'm going to open it up now after we got some lively things let me start with this gentleman and then you and then we'll go on from there thank you my name is Simon Atiba from Simon Atiba news Africa so many things seems to be right with Nigeria and we see Nigerian dominating Africa as someone who was born in Cameroon I see Nigerian music I see Nigerian movies I see so many great things that Nigerians are doing my question goes to Professor Jigga what are some of those things that unite Nigerian more can you talk to those things that unite Nigerian more than those that divide Nigerian thank you okay that unite Nigerian more I'm gonna take two or three questions thank you my name is Deirdre Lupin I'm a long-standing student of Nigeria I might say for 45 years a good part of that time and lived in the country and I've worked with or in the public and private sectors as well as academia in Nigeria um my memo uh Dr. Kingsley would be not so much to the citizens but to those very competent managers with vision of which there are so many as you pointed out throughout the country as to why they do not present themselves as leaders so that the people can choose them and make this change that you're looking for is there a reason why these folks do not offer themselves for public service and can that be changed okay let me take a couple more questions gentleman right there his microphone is coming sir my name is Samara Solomon from Creative Associates International I would like to hear your insight as to an assumption that is widely entertained by the international community and many scholars where there is a standing feeling that the states the 36 and half states in Nigeria have lost their economic independence or some for a very obvious reason because resource is usually centralized and it comes from the oil proceeds and they get their share in accordance with the population the size of the population right and at the same time as you rightly said all of us even the previous panel vibrant economy an extremely energetic human resource asset quite a great deal of natural resources and all that but at the end of the day we come to the states why they have lost their economic independence for the simple reason that they are not able even to collect taxes the World Bank statistics indicates that the percentage contribution of revenues or tax revenue to the GTP in Nigeria is only one percent compare this with Botswana 29 percent compare this with Kenya 23 percent anymore so how do we how how how how how can Nigerian or the 36 states regain their economic strengths by simply applying one simple tax collection mechanism where they can collect and serve their constituencies and that's what democracy is all about I want to get us I want to get on to thank you I think we got the question thank you thank you I'm going to let the answer those three then I'll pick up those two back there and then we'll probably run out of time so that's taken the first question I think was to you about what unites Nigeria regrettably a lot of the narrative is about what divides Nigeria rather than what unites Nigeria so it's good to focus on those questions of what unites Nigeria when the question was posed my neighbor here quickly said football and no doubt football unites Nigerians especially when we are competing with Ghana or Cameroon and and so on but I think on a more serious note I think what unites Nigeria and that we should all be talking about is the resilience of communities and the energy boundless energy of our youth across the nation and their aspiration you know for having opportunities to contribute to the development of their communities and their own countries and unfortunately because those opportunities are not created and the and the efforts are diverted and the youth are frustrated by lack of inclusion lack of employment and capacity building then obviously they also lose sight of the benefit of that focus and they end up in smaller enclaves and some of these passionate discussions about divisions and so on and so I think it's difficult to be more specific than what I have said but I think it's a big challenge for us really to think about that question of what unites us Nigerians and focus on it you know and and move on for example when we were youth you know in universities and growing up not only were we excited by what role youth can play to transform their countries which were manifested in some of us wearing a red berets and pretending to be Castro and and the tear govara but but but really in terms of saying that look with education and a lot of it funded by state resources we have the capacity to also add value to the progress and development and transformation in our countries and our deliberate efforts to build what I call bridges across the Niger you know at the student union movement levels you hardly find the tendency we see now where in the universities the prevailing platforms for dialogue and discussions are either ethnic or religious but you have Pan-Nigeria movements you know with membership across the Niger you know across the divides you know and and and that was a spirit that was driving the youth patriotism contribution changing society for the better and and so on and and so forth and unfortunately a lot of these have been dissipated some of the bridge that bridges that have been built had been dismantled or destroyed so it's a serious effort to begin to to build that process but more quickly I wanted to say something about this point yes obviously the states have resource challenges but I think the question to ask is why this thing about 30 out of 36 states not being able to pay salaries even from the collections of rent from Abuja you know it's not that the monies that come to them cannot pay salaries but it's because of misplacement of priorities by the governors and the other you know state agencies in the state they will rather divert the resources to some other things than to pay salaries and catalyze a process of generating revenues and making progress in in society so so so frankly I believe that with good visionary leadership you know even under the present context all the states in Nigeria can be viable given the resource base but the scope is there when you begin to rearrange the federal system for them to have more resources and therefore to be able to do more in in the process of governance and I tend to ask myself a question when for example the point was made about reverting to original structure and the fundamental question is how are you going to do that how do you revert to original structure that not only subsumes but also dismantles the states you know and we have to ask ourselves as to whether the benefits will outweigh the costs of doing that you know very dispassionately objectively and realistically you know so so so the more I think we interrogate these questions more passionately the more for me it becomes a question of how do you devolve power resources and responsibilities from the center to the states and how do you develop the capacity of the states then to build upon that you know and be more viable in terms of leadership and other challenges because we shouldn't forget you know the process of that management of diversity that has resulted in the creation of this number of states clearly we've got a point where creation of more states will be counter productive but dismantling already created states you know how how how what are the consequences in terms of even that challenge of management of diversity so so we need to really address these questions I think the challenge is we have 36 states and the federal capital territory you know we can create political mechanisms which can say if you can set up a very good constitutional process and there is a referendum and people of one state and another state want to merge and they can go through the constitutional process then that's inclusive participatory and it does not close totally the possibility of summary arrangement structural rearrangement you know that is fine and good but to just wake up and say go back to the regional structure forgetting the real reasons that have led us to having this number of states really would be counter productive because as is clear to everybody there are still also demands both shuffles demands for creation of more states you know so so I think we really need to to be engaging these questions I'm not going to be able to take my question I'm sorry because we have to finish at 1230 sharp so I'm going to let Kingsley and Sandra have a final word let me just make one quick comment professor because there's another way of doing this and we see that sometimes in the United States states themselves get together and form regional economic we do it on water in the west so there's even without constitutional change if you get leadership at the states they can form regional economic plans etc but Kingsley and Sandra last couple comments and we'll have to break it and I apologize too yeah sorry we've run out of time but so let me just say in response to Professor Jager that I believe like Princeton said that we can create regional governments in Nigeria without abolishing the states and that is one of the options we have to look at and then allow as Professor Jager said a possibility within the regions for restructuring themselves that is that is possible you can have a regional government state governments and local governments it's it's it's possible or call the state's provinces or something there's a lot of innovative ways we can do this without abolishing and creating a lot of pain you know from things that already exist rightly or wrongly but they already exist so so just to just to say that now on what unites Nigerians quick comment I believe that our diversity actually unites us this is one point we fail to appreciate enough that there are many Nigerians who would not really want to live in ethnic enclaves the diversity the beauty of Nigeria is it's many people and they're different ways when when Nigeria was Nigeria this is what a lot of people enjoyed a lot about it now so so that's one uniting factor and one evidence of this is that we can debate all these political histrionics but the rate of inter-ethnic marriages in Nigeria is huge is huge so you know but the political level it looks as if we're at each other's throats but our young men and women rather fancy each other so isn't that a contradiction I think it is so that's diversity is a uniting is one of our uniting factors plus of course soccer now to answer very quickly yeah just one minute the point about why don't capable people step out to be counted in terms of I believe that trend is beginning to change in the past it wasn't so because people were afraid politics is dirty people were professionals often didn't have the type of money to go into politics I'm not wealthy so how can I win so but I think a lot of young professional people we have this build this thing now called not too young to run so in Nigeria and I think it's encouraging the youth to step up to to the leadership plate and so I believe that we're going to see a new trend probably starting from this election and going into 23 23 in which non-traditional politicians begin to step up forward step forward increasingly to take the mantle of political leadership because many of them recognize that only in this lies our salvation as I said those who have been at it for the past 40 50 years I mean come on if you've had a 40 50 year career in politics you should retire I will be very brief I started by my remarks by saying that Nigeria is a country of great potential and I would just say that the discussions that we've had this morning underscore the diversity but also the dynamism and the great potential that Nigeria has and I know is that US government we look forward to continuing to work with our Nigerian partners on a wide range of issues to ensure that Nigeria to help Nigeria meet its potential thank you I appreciate the panelists I hope you'll join me in thanking them and and for this very lively discussion thank you very much let me also join ambassador Lyman and thanking the the panelists the one thing that we have seen this morning aside from a rich rich discussion with a lot of profound insights is one of the things that I think one or two of the panelists mentioned and that is the enormous amount of human capital that exists in Nigeria today and you've seen it on display in both of the panels in terms of the intellectual depth and the profound understanding that they have not only of the issues around Nigeria but how those issues interact with global issues as well we too here in the United States could learn a few lessons from some of this discussion anyway thank you Paul