 What's up, everybody? I'm the hook and I'm the blade and I am sure glad that I did not sniff the air that day and see And together we're You know welcome to the hook played podcast I'm your host Lawson joined as always by your host Timothy and our special guest this week None other than then jacers. Howdy guys jacers mck jacers. Yes. Just jacers. Just jacers. Thanks for having me back on guys Thank you for joining us again. It is it is a pleasure to have you with us for this very special episode Near and dear to all of our hearts. I'm sure In some ways this is kind of I think I joked to Tim yeah, I actually said it in the last episode like in some ways this is what the whole hook played podcast has been building up towards because we've now just finally been able to breach the game that Tim has never played Right, that's true It's interesting. I feel like between the two of you we have some different like some interesting perspectives because Correct me if I'm wrong jacers, but was origins not the first Assassin's Creed game you played. Yes, it was yeah Yeah, I got it for Christmas in 2017. That was my first my first one. That was my first Christmas gift. I Mean I enjoyed it I played it for like hundreds of hours, so whoever did gave it to me. I mean the money was well spent I believe yeah, that's true gave you a whole new hobby and thing to spend your time doing When you're when you're the next Leo K or when you have like a million subscribers watching your stealth runs You got to be like shout out to my aunt Carol who bought me a satin's creed I think I think Swiftie. I think Swiftie unknown is like the big stuff guy right now. Yeah, no offense Leo Sorry, yeah, Swiftie unknown. How many how many subbies does Swiftie unknown have something like 250k? He's on the same level of stealth gamer BR. So those are like those are the two biggest ones Yeah, the pillars of the stealth gaming community I mean, yeah, that's that's one way to put it That's hilarious. Can you imagine people calling themselves the pillars? That'd be so Yeah, we don't need to get on their bad side Speaking of bad side, we're here to talk about assassin's creed origins And so jacers you've put a hot you've put hundreds of hours of into this game It was your introduction into the wide world of of ask creed. What's your what's your what's your take? What's your one sentence review? Where's this? Where's this rank for you? And what do you think best thing? I can say is that origins is just a very solid video game that I enjoy playing My feelings on it have changed since I got more invested into assassin's creed Gotcha, but in terms of just how I appreciate it Like it because it was a game that I it was my introduction to series I think Lawson you probably mentioned this at least once in another episode Is that the first game you play in the series kind of has a special place in your heart? Yes And I think that's an experience that a lot of people share so that's definitely the case for me And I think that if we look at origins and especially after in the context of a halla We can look back at origins and be like, okay Well, this actually holds up pretty well a lot of this does anyway interesting. Yeah, no, that's that's a fair take It's funny to me that I feel like there's a whole alternate universe out there where after Discovering origins and playing a bunch of assassin's creed games You evolved into the other kind of AC fan where you're just like all I was I was just like RPG formula Isn't that my best friend and classic games are no longer cool. That was me for about Six months after I because I played origins I played the games in the most wack ass your order. You could possibly match I played it or I played origins then odyssey then unity then the etseo trilogy in three Then one then foreign rogue. Oh, then syndicate that is and then Valhalla. Yeah, I can't even make sense of that That's bizarre. Yeah, it is very strange But you know I got I got to all of them in the end and My opinions were you know the good ones I guess as I as I like to call them now, so I'm gonna go ahead and throw out my take because I want to I want to Just build up to Tim's a little bit more Luckily somewhat for for me I Immortalized my immediate post gameplay thoughts in a video on my somewhat inactive YouTube channel for now wink wink Story forward where I talked about Assassin's Creed Origins largely from the perspective of the story Which at the time I thought was very bad I'll link that in the description if you haven't seen it and you want some context for like what I thought immediately after playing it But I did I think what I what I said about the game as a whole in that in that video Like the only time I really acknowledged like the entire product gameplay included is I said that it was Like a top three assassins creed game with a bottom three assassins creed story. That was a pretty ballsy quote, I guess What do you think was ballsy about it ranking it so high as a whole or ranking the story so low? Oh the story I totally agree with you at least at least to some extent like There there are a lot of problems with origin story But like in terms of top three assassins creed game in term of gameplay I think that is very ballsy especially considering how different it was at the time like to put that out there right as the game came out That was uh, you know Putting yourself out there Well, you know, it's interesting about that is that's where the community was at the time broadly speaking like the The honeymoon phase that these games always tend to have for a few months after release where everyone's just in love with and Amored with the game like that was really powerful with origins like the origins backlash Didn't really come into full swing until probably close to like when odyssey was announced I want to say and yeah, and like at the time it was it was hailed as a really big step forward It was like There were things about it that really excited everyone like the whole the whole, you know open living world feel of like What's the word I'm looking for systemic the systemic open-world Vastness of it like had a lot of people feeling like it was a bold a bold step and people liked the like witcher three isms of it to be fully clear now Origins is not a top three assassins creed game. It's actually in my bottom three overall Wow I I rank origins above or below odyssey, which is blasphemy to many people I think origins is gameplay is really not appealing to me. I struggle to see what I saw in it at the time Like I like when I try to cast my mind back to 2017 and like try to understand why I thought it was an even a top three Gameplay scenario. I don't know why I did overall, I think origins is quite bad and I don't like it really at all so that's how I feel about it and Tim yeah as a first-time player first-time player What did you what did you feel did it sweep you off your feet? Are you enamored with its? Egyptian setting with its with its self-serious tone. Are you in love with the open-world dynamics? How you feeling? Well, I'm gonna have to answer yes to those questions because I really love origins But but no, but seriously like It's now in my top three What's interesting like as we've gone through all these replays I always I was going to the replay with like I'm I'm looking to enjoy these games I'm looking for the best in them like even something like AC3 that I know I hate I'm like, maybe I won't hate it this time and that was definitely true of origins because Coming off of Valhalla, there are so many problems with Valhalla so many things They don't like about it Valhalla in origins Definitely you can draw a closer line between them than any of them with Odyssey, right? So I was like maybe maybe by virtue of it not being a hundred hour Slap in the face to anyone who respects their time Might earn it some retroactive points like maybe I'll appreciate it more Maybe the fact that you technically play as someone who is a hidden one at some point like Maybe there are things I can enjoy about it No, it turns out. It's still pretty bad And I still probably like Valhalla better and I still probably like what better you like Valhalla better than origins Oh, geez. Yeah, that's a cringe take there Is that really that controversial, I don't think it is I think origins is light years ahead of Valhalla for sure for soon I'm gonna say I respect that Valhalla tried to do things, right? That's the difference I think like I like okay Odyssey not trying to be a good Assassin's Creed game Origins half-heartedly trying to be a good Assassin's Creed game Like it like it is, but it's not really into it Valhalla Fully trying to be fully fails to be but fully trying to be does that make sense? I would argue that origins is actually like Retroactively the perfect compromise between the RPG creeds and the classic creeds. What okay, so here here's a quote from Here's a quote from Leo. Okay, you mentioned this because JV posted a Video about AC origins a while back and in in one of the comment sections Leo Leo wrote AC origins is as far as you can push Assassin's Creed before it just crumbles in your hands Yeah, that's that's kind of how I feel about it. I think that that's true And I think that might coexist with my feelings on it as well Yeah, I feel like Valhalla does definitely come closer to being an Assassin's Creed game in terms of narrative There it is. Yes in terms of how the game feels like to play like I find it much easier to have the Assassin fantasy in Origins than in Valhalla. That's true I think that's true. I've said many times that like story is the number one most important thing to me when it comes to These games and so if we're talking purely in terms of which has the better story I think I would say that Valhalla has a better story than than origins Yes, because yeah I mean it has the Darby character writing in the sense that the characters are actually distinguished from each other You can tell who's who, you know, you you can feel their personalities even if sometimes they're a little one note and You can also feel the structure of it. You can sense that there's an attempt at at character progression at change and Valhalla definitely does not stick the landings on about anything it tries to do narratively in my opinion, but origins is so so so Weak in the story department origins has almost nothing Going on that is remotely compelling to me and I just It's just dog water like I just forget about everything that happens as soon as it happens Yeah, I was talking with Tim about this sort of thing when he was playing the game And one thing he mentioned when he got to the end of the game And there's that scene where all the guys and girls are around the table and by eggs, you know Giving that speech about you know, we'll start our brotherhood and everything and you're just sitting there like I Barely remember who half of these people are and the ones that I do remember who they are I don't know that much about them exactly other than they're like one thing that the game presents about them like The only people that I remember there is like I as cousin because he was that playwright and he actually has some funny Sidequests that tie to him. Yeah, there's another guy like I don't know that that priest from Memphis who we saw like we talked to like three times He's just randomly there. Yeah, there's I think Tahira who I genuinely don't really remember that much about I'm impressed. You know even any of their names. So yeah, honestly metal. I played the game multiple times So this is my third type like for this for this podcast. This is my third play through origins Like at least other main story one of them was new game plus as in as in your third time since we said Hey, do you want to come on and do an Origins episode? You've played the game thrice Is that we don't know no no since I got the game in 2017. Okay. This is your third full play through Yeah, this is this was my first play through Since 2017 I think there are a few points I'll only recite a few points. I made in my video that I feel like hold up particularly well one is I think I said in the video that Assassin's Creed stories can live or die by their supporting cast and that's exactly what you're getting at like you want the people you see around the table to be on the same level as You know when you're in AC to chilling with Machiavelli and Leonardo da Vinci like you want to have that connection to in that relationship with those people and then the other thing is that I already thought it was a bad idea on The grounds of we're doing we're telling an Assassin's Creed origin story I already hate the idea that the origin moment has to happen at the end like in my ideal scenario The Brotherhood gets formed at most halfway through the game And you then still get those assassin trappings and hidden ones lore and aesthetics and gameplay in in that second half game But if you're gonna do it at the end, I want you to have a character story where the decision to found a Brotherhood Dedicated to political assassinations, you know the ideals of the assassins the things that we recognize and appreciate about them like The decision to to create that Brotherhood should be a choice that that is the culmination of a character arc that decision should be a Moment of emotional significance and change for the protagonist it should have some meaning behind it It should not be an afterthought to a Varied by the numbers revenge story that is the biggest failing of this story. I think yeah like this is not an origin story It's a revenge story where the assassin Brotherhood kind of just happens to get formed exactly You could argue that it was important if the story had themes about that sort of thing of the story focused on Oh, well, what's the solution to our problem? What's the so if that was the focus of the game? No, it's just Bayek running around killing people because they were connected to the to the murder of his son Yeah, yeah, it's not he's not doing it for a philosophical reason Which would be part of the reason why you'd want to have an origin story be like how did Where did all of this assassin philosophy come from? Well, it's it came because a guy decided to stab people because they kill this kid. Yeah, like okay That that's a little bit underwhelming. It's just not a compelling back story Yeah And you know, I guess Ia kind of serves as what you're talking about like she kind of finds a higher purpose Throughout finding revenge like she she's actually the first one who's like yeah I kind of want to transcend this murder revenge thing and Figure with my life, but like I totally agree with you Jace's and and off and of course Lawson on this like the supporting cast of not even really existent Yeah, but that's the thing too is when you're around that table Not only are the people there you're not familiar with but Bayek starts using language that he hasn't throughout the entire game He's like yes other hood are creed and it's like what great read you haven't earned that moment yet You have not earned the moment to drop creed. What the fuck is blood poetry, Ia? What is that? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? It's like let's just throw out these assassins creed buzzwords to get fans excited You know and origins has a pretty lengthy story in my opinion I think it's kind of long and it feels like for all the time it takes building up other things It and then it gets to that table scene and it's like oh shit We have to like do some creed stuff So and then it just goes zero to a hundred on the creed stuff and if it were peppered out throughout the story I think it would have been far better hundred percent one thing that I don't remember who said this I'm not gonna take credit for it But origins screwed up sounds like the way they wrote dialogue is they wanted people to quote things So they try to say things really cool so that they end up in quote books Yeah, that's what that's what dialogue and origin sound is a really good way to describe it because I wrote like The writing like my note was that the writing of this game is so clearly aiming for this high-minded Philosophical poetic tone, but it's so empty. There's no meaning or drama or actual thought underlying any of it So like everything Bayek or Ia says in this game sounds cool and moody But like when you think about it, it's all just describing the most basic possible conflicts Then one more thing I like to add about that is the final conversation between Bayek and Ia and Ia says So Bayek of Siwa, what are you of now? Jesus and by X Bayek says a new creed hours is finished What was your previous read? What is the new creed? We have had zero there's zero establishment of this I guess the creed was press creed was bull. He's a Medjai. So I guess it was protecting people But he's still doing that. It's not healing. He's really doing anything different. Yeah Yeah, he's basically still doing a Medjai. He just thought calling himself one I also really appreciated a comment on a Reddit thread recently on our on our Assassin's Creed subreddit where someone was like Yeah, what do you mean Bayek has an arc in this game? He goes from a Medjai who loves kids to a Medjai who loves kids. What the fuck and I'm like, yeah, it's literally That's that's exactly right and that's kind of the I think what you all are kind of getting at is one of the handicaps of an origin story that's like this because there are certain prequel Stories or origin stories that are kind of play formatted in a way that like, okay, so We know that Bayek and and I you know like something of what like something that they are doing is not going to be working And thus that's what causes the creed to happen So that to me makes it feel like there's so many instances of this game where we're kind of spinning our wheels and doing the things We know Bayek and I are eventually not going to be doing like for Bayek It's like how he has been going about this has not been working And so therefore he needs to now be in the shadows and thrive in the darkness and everything and yet I I don't know if that's the most compelling way to do it to do an Assassin's Creed Origin because For half of the game you're doing the thing you don't want to be doing because does that make sense Yeah, no it makes perfect sense And I think you like for sure the other obvious pitch that I would have for like how to actually give that decision some Significance is like just think about how accessible it could have been for this to be a story about Essentially the classic trope of like I don't need anyone's help I'm gonna do this by myself and then the realization at the end being like oh Actually can use a team and we can all make each other better at what we're doing and we can all work together Like that's a very basic simple. It's trope. It's classical, but like you know What do they do instead a revenge quest? That's a tropey and especially for Assassin's Creed at this point Which has been yes bread and butter of which has been revenge quest for as long as it's existed almost Yeah, it's like I would have taken a little bit of fun a little bit of like emotionally interesting You know maybe found family type storytelling where it's a guy meeting the people that he Builds a brotherhood with and they're building their relationships with each other like that would have been better than this But I'm sure like what's possible In an ideal scenario there are just so many better directions that an origin story could have gone in and to your point There's that line that bike says about how he will be to all the sons of Egypt He will be the father that he was not that day in Siwa I think that's a that's a really good line And I think yeah had that had that scene had a better build up I would have loved it even more Yeah, like to that type of thing that you're describing it could very well be that like bike loses his son and His relationship with IA is kind of fractured, but then he's able to kind of take on this Higher purpose, you know and use those and use those paternal instincts to like make the world a better place I don't obviously it's not the way that they went obviously, but I'm I'm glad you mentioned IA because their relationship is another Really obvious failing of the story where there are kind of two things wrong with it One is IA gets so much more actual like stuff to do Story-wise Regardless of how interesting you might or might not think that story stuff is the fact that there are political machinations at play She's working with people like Cleopatra and and Caesar like you get the sense Especially in the moments where you're switching to play as her like she's the one who's actually doing a story and then like Bayek is like a side character in her world. It almost feels like sometimes. Yeah, which at that point Which is you know, you start to ask the obvious questions of like why aren't we playing as IA? You know so on and so forth. Yeah, I was gonna say it's reflective of you know What happened with Ubisoft right exactly the creative direction that sort of stuff Yeah, but the other thing too is that it's it's even more bizarre to me in this game Because it represents one of the only conflicts in the game besides the the nebulous goal of like avenging Hemu and bringing down the order because for the entire game Bayek is like I love you, baby Please stay by my side. Let's be together and and she's like no man. I'm doing my own thing I'm like helping Cleopatra. I've got bigger things to do and this tug-of-war between These two different things they want is present throughout basically every scene that they have and the ultimate resolution To that conflict is Bayek deciding almost arbitrarily that like he's okay with it Like there's there's not much cathartic or satisfying about that It would have been more interesting if they were you know Like he's a strange because of Kimu and and then by the end there they rediscover their love for each other And doing this assassin shit why if they're both in the end deciding to Form the brotherhood and they're now for the first time in the entire story united in their goals Why is that the moment that they decide to not be together anymore? It doesn't right none of these things fit together in any Intuitive way yeah, and you know speaking speaking of their love for each other if you did a drinking game Or how many times Bayek like fawns over her simps for her tells her how much Love her tells her how beautiful she is like every there's so much dialogue where it's like wow That sounds like my beautiful wife. I would like to spend the night with you It's just yeah like you're you're there's one point You're literally like you're sailing across a river on a falooka and Bayek says yo, let's fuck. Yeah, like yeah You you are a queen you're like and that's fine I don't know I feel like like unity is the romance where there's like no chemistry And this is the romance where Bayek is like way more in love with Aya than she is him It's mostly just like you said it's it's like Bayek sweet talks her She's distant because they need that sense of conflict to propel the scenes forward like In all I mean this is really common in Especially these games where you feel like a conflict has been invented just so that there's something interesting happening in a scene And that really is what it feels like for most of the time that Bayek and Aya are Discussing that whole concept of like should we stay together and keep doing this You know and and there might have been something profound to say about the idea that that their relationship was consumed by their lust for revenge And that once that need was sated there wasn't much left bringing them together like that could have worked It's just that they didn't it didn't execute any of their ideas well enough certainly not that one Yeah, it feels like that's what they tried to do But it's just they didn't spell it out well enough. They didn't build it up properly Yeah, and it left a pretty like a dissatisfying conclusion. It's just mechanically not there. Yes. We give not building things up properly Flavius Who who's that flabby Origins is that was he like a side guy? Do you give you some side missions? What's who's that? He's the main villain and no one knows who he is Yeah, no one knows who he is sit on Flavia. He's literally He's he's basically Caesar's butler for the two times that you see him and then all of a sudden he's the main villain of the game You know nothing about him Literally nothing like you they and Bayek acts like oh, yeah Flavius. I know who that guy is he's so I hate him It's like you've seen him twice and he did literally didn't even interact with you in the two times You saw him and I'm somehow supposed to believe that Bayek is like it's it's like that scene in Batman and Robin where Commissioner Gordon explains like oh, yeah, there's this new villain He's turning people on the ice blocks his name is mr. Freeze and then George Clooney because he doesn't know how to act in that movie He's like, oh, yeah, mr. Freeze I know who this brand new villain is before anyone's even told me that he exists Like it's tone of voice is completely wrong The way he speaks is like he knows who this person is like he has a long history. Oh, yeah My age old enemy Flavius freeze. Yeah Yeah, literally when like the entire game also is like the whole kind of Loop of it is to find out like who the scarab is or who the crocodile is and so you're not even going to know their Identities until you kill them especially when to like here's here's the other thing that I just realized kind of Takes the the bite out of that whole mystery It's like if you've decided that anyone involved in this group because Someone in this group murdered your son You've now decided that by virtue of that fact they you know, they sniffed the air that day in Siwa All of them are going to die at that point Does it matter one goddamn iota which one of them killed your son? You're not going to spare one over the other You can kill the entire group of that's a great point never actually know who killed your son But know that because one of them did and all of them are dead whoever killed your son is now dead So there's no urgency or importance to this mystery. It's barely qualifies as a mystery at any level It's just a good reason for him to kill this entire group of people But you know as as as as thoughtful consumers of media and storytelling we might want to ask the question Why should everyone in this group of people die? Are they doing anything? Particularly evil like we don't get any of that world building for what the order of the ancients are actually about What they want to do all that we know is the context that we can bring to it as assassin's creed Players which is that they're basically proto-templars which means they have to be evil and they want the pieces of Eden they want the apple they're probably gonna do something bad with it But like the game is not interested in any level about thinking about any of that stuff, you know Yeah, and at the end of the game when you go to you know Kyroneica and the Green Mountains that area Yeah, you're supposed to go in and Flavius is apparently controlling all this stuff with the apple and You know all that all like the whole area is just like completely fucked It's supposed to be anyway, but then you go there and it just looks normal outside of like a few West Yeah, it's the first time you're like seeing fucking grass in the game which feels notable. Yeah Yeah, and then if you go to if you go to like AC1 you look at memory block 7 you go to Masyaf That's what it should look like if someone is fucking everyone over with the apple Yeah, I should be gray like usually there should be no color anymore Everyone should be walking around like zombies be to the master like they are in AC1 But that's not happening like that's just not happening You can go and climb that building and do weeps of faith and those six like those ten-year-old kids are like you're the flea of Cyrene it's like okay. Well, this is some solid consistent world building like okay Oh, okay, so I agree with you completely But I also will say that some of my favorite story elements were that you could just come across a town or an area that he had been through and just see the and see the wreckage behind like there were some instances where I Distumbled upon a dude and he was forced to kill his son through the apple and I and you can just listen to him Grieve and like cry and then at the end of it Bayek is like I will kill him for my son and for yours and like so some of that stuff is pretty dope Yeah, I agree with you completely though. There is some stuff They're doing that detail work, but they're not actually selling the emotional Necessity of what you should be feeling in that in that section of the game Which is urgency and you could stop right there and go do like a hundred side quests So that sense of urgency is actually only present in that one memory That forces you to play as I have for like an hour And I can't I can't fault them too much for that because to some extent that is the the burden of Every RPG like there is always the world-ending quest that you can ignore for exactly as long as you want to unless you're playing Ocarina of time and or not Ocarina major is mask and you have like seven days or whatever however that game works I've never played it, you know like very rarely in fact That's why I give some points to and I'll I'll keep this mentioned very brief because I don't want to get too deep into it Odyssey because the overarching story of Odyssey is reunite your family and there's no urgency to that you can do whenever you get around to it So, you know, go ahead do some side It definitely doesn't it that structure definitely doesn't do any favors for the lack of urgency in that moment, too For sure exactly for sure. I lost my train of thought. I'm sorry. We believe in you pull it back Imagine the train oh Well, okay, not to backtrack too far awesome But I did want to mention to you that what you were saying about how you could possibly do how Bayek and Aya like they are They're being fueled by this like, you know want for revenge and once they get it They can't exactly like be a couple anymore. They can't be together like, you know They what they've lost and suffered through is too much and they have to part ways I think that could have benefited if Bayek is has Hemu and that's his son and he's not married and then he meets Aya along the way And she has also been fucked over by the order and then him and her fall in love And then they they write blood poetry and at the end they realize that they've lost too much And that they have to part ways and then so they both are avenging something and Aya obviously is gonna want to avenge Bayek's kid because they fell in love with each other But that that you that that stops you from like the awkwardness of like well They've been they've been husband and wife for a long time like why why aren't they getting back together? There's no need for them to part ways now that they've gotten what they wanted, right? So anyway, right, right, that could have been interesting and there are any number of like small tweaks Of course, that would of course probably improve things Yeah, but that is an interesting thought that hadn't occurred to me something else about about the story of this game I don't know necessarily works. I feel like it delves into the abstract a little too like to without warning like There's a lot of Egyptian mythology stuff. I don't feel like it's explained very well There's that whole sequence where you're you have like the mystical bow and you're fighting the lizard and it's like What what does this have to do with anything and can you explain it to me, please and like a lot of the Memory corridor sequences are like really cool and spooky and like Valhalla is but there's not really an in-universe Explanation as to why they are spooky and scary and all that and so what have been neat grand I saw that on it would have been neat if if yeah I saw them the song it would have been neat if if kind of similar to like the feather thing as it does in this game if they Tried to give some kind of explanation as to why you know, you can have these long conversations with someone that you just stabbed in the face Like obviously that's the that's like the assassin's creed thing and I'm not at all That's yeah, I'm not saying I don't want it to be a thing I'm just saying like Egyptian mythology thing where it's like we now have 60 seconds to make out before you die officially You know, I mean, yeah, I could be something the explanation I believe aya off like does a passing mention that they're in the do ought That's the thing like they talk about the do on the field of reeds and I just don't really understand what those things are Exactly And I'm sure someone could school me and and I'd be like, okay cool But you know, maybe some of just maybe some of the emotionally crucial scenes in this game Would have been more impactful if I understood what those words meant and like the other thing too is Why is the animus presenting this stuff to us if they actually are in the do ought of the field of reeds? Yeah, like where does the animus come into this which is another forgotten aspect of this game? Yeah Yeah I've always want like I actually think when I was playing Valhalla My mom was just like in the living room at the same time and she was so confused by the the memory corridor concept of like Are you guys in heaven? afterlife and I'm like Okay, so there's okay, so an animus. This is like a simulation. This isn't really happening They're not really having this conversation if they are it's not like They're not I feel like The original intent behind that whole device was maybe that like because you could be killing this person any number of potential ways the animus is showing you a conversation that really happened but But you know ensuring that it happens as it did Despite how you may have killed them in a different place at a different time with a different weapon so on and so forth That gets really muddy when they get all when they get all what's the word surreal with the way they present them Like especially in origins in Valhalla or it's like, you know, oh crocodile ladies chilling on a big-ass crocodile That's not something that really happened But you can see it because it's fun to look at But it's something you can't really think about too hard or else it all falls apart like many things in Assassin's Creed You know and in that and I think that this game specifically kind of actually even more than a war is like Bayek clearly is You know loves his Egypt. He loves his Egyptian mythology stuff. And so like one thing about Bayek He really loves his Egypt It's he does loves him some Egypt It's like every AC iconography thing is like a like a lot of the Assassin's Creed iconography stuff is linked to this Egyptian mythology stuff, which I don't think is exactly universal to any like the 11 time assassins are not utilizing the field of reeds or Any shit or anything like that, you know, I mean, right, right, right? So yeah, I think it gets a little too bogged down in that stuff. Yeah, but hey Bayek is exceptionally acted. Yes. Good. Very good. Do you agree, Lawson? Oh, yeah. No, I love Abu Bakar Salim in this game. Me too. He's a great actor. He's a great actor Very good. Probably one of the best Assassin's Creed protagonist performances in a long time For sure. Probably one of the best ones which is remarkable for a character I give so little of a shit about him that I actually like his actor So he has a great amount of range. He has this warmth and empathy to him that really like he just nails that archetype of the Stoic But kind leader Protector, he's just I like that's the thing. I would have been okay with seeing more Bayek It's just that the story of origins didn't know what to do with them for the most part. Yeah, for sure You guys want to talk about gameplay? I have a yeah Let's let's jump into that and I want to start with a question for you jacers that I think you are Sure, best person to answer this question I need you to confirm or deny my subjective feeling of The particular gameplay mechanic, okay? Is it just me or does parkour in origins? Feel better and faster than it does in both Odyssey and Valhalla I think Odyssey feels relatively the same, but Valhalla is definitely much slower. Okay, definitely definitely worse JV talked about this in his Valhalla ultimately disappointed me video. He like recorded clips of it or maybe it was the clips were on Twitter, but Yeah, he talked about this nonetheless. Gotcha. Yeah, it is definitely slower because Origins reuses like the for example when you pull yourself up onto ledges Origins just reuses that animation for immunity. It's quick. It's simple in bit. It works, right? Valhalla adds a new animation where you're like Quickly yank yourself up like you do like a muscle up basically instead of just pulling yourself up Yeah, and you or and another thing is in Valhalla. You can't roll manually, right? So what ends up happening is that you just you'll just like land really clumsily if you jump from anything more than like What the game considers to be a quote-unquote safe distance you just land and it feels really awkward and That's the main thing. This is parkour in origins. It's very simple It's very basic, but it it feels clean. It's responsive. It does what you want it to and it works It does honestly feel good sometimes I had more moments than I was expecting in in my replay where I felt like I could actually Enjoy the navigation enjoy moving around feel like I was moving quickly and responsibly But at the same time like it makes it almost even more of a slap in the face that just just barely the cities and environments don't Like they just don't expect you to be able to travel that far via rooftop So even though I can genuinely kind of enjoy climbing a building and walking across some ropes and jumping between some buildings Like inevitably I'm going to be interrupted by a white-ass street And I'm gonna have to get down and at no point in the game and no location Is it faster to get somewhere by by the rooftops? That's that's what makes it so Underwhelming, but I think both Odyssey and Valhalla are even worse in that regard. So yeah for sure I retroactively give origins a bit of credit for being not the worst it could possibly be but it's still pretty bad Yeah for origins the I think the main thing if you look at the way Montreal three kind of designed their games black flag is kind of like black flag and revelations are kind of the pre-tourses to this but ever since that the focus has very much been on Usability they want parkour to be usable So if you look at the way that I think the the the most useful place for parkour in origins is in stealth Areas and enemy camps in forts and stuff like that That's because what you want what you're looking for is the height advantage that is The most useful place for parkour in origins. It's not useful for general traversal That's that's like the main thing that I've deciphered because of course Yeah, horse riding through streets is going to be faster than you know running across rooftops Hoping there's gonna be a rope on the other side when there might not be yeah, right? It's just yeah So it's very much a utilitarian thing. I mean parkour always is but origins much more so because realistically There is very little expressiveness to the movement in origins Right like there's some stuff that it retains from unity very limited ways For example in unity you can wall run at a diagonal, right? You can like wall run up like at a diagonal. Yeah, you can do that in origins But you can only do it if you're on like a fence or something that drives directly into a wall interesting No idea why they made it that way, but that's how it works. Um, what else you can side eject But you have to be on a corner of something and there has to be a valid platform for something or the ground below You has to be a quote-unquote safe distance meaning you wouldn't take fall damage from it if you don't roll That's that's a safe distance because which is especially dumb because you can just roll and negate a lot of the fall damage Right that you would normally take am I missing that you can roll manually in this game? Yeah, you hold parkour Oh, I you hold didn't you think I could do that either Yeah, you just could have been rolling this whole time You telling me I could have been fucking rolling You can roll manually in origins. I hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'm about to manually roll my eyes Ha ha ha Yeah Can I make a I want to make a declarative statement? I hate the combat in origins. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. It never felt good. It never felt satisfying. It never felt Deep or strategic. I would take odyssey's combat over it Forever and I would definitely take Valhalla's combat over it. Are you are you What are you doing Are you telling me you think origins has a better more satisfying combat experience in Valhalla? I think it's it's probably got the best combat in the series dog Origins, are you okay? Are you fucking with me? Let's let's look back at this Let's look at it from an objective standpoint, right? Cause I think this is important Because origins was the first game that really shifted the combat paradigm, right? Yes The first hit it was the first hitbox based combat system and the worst one look at it From a hitbox based combat system standpoint, right? Yeah It feels like an attempt at a hitbox based combat system. It's It it does some good things. It does some bad things It does some things that or it I should say it doesn't do some things that it should Yeah, uh, if there's this really great reddit post From fatal fate where they talk about I believe it's called a critique of origins combat or something like that Where it was written around the time the games released and they've admitted to me that they feel that they're a little bit too harsh on the game Then yeah, then like they should have been but What essentially origins as a hitbox based combat system is kind of just it's all right In terms like if you compare it to stuff like ghost of Tsushima or dark souls or Or Sekiro stuff like that. It's kind of just all right It it's fine. It works. It does the job it needs to and that's that It's not like amazing, but you know, it's there that and I think that I mostly agree with that I And I feel like this is probably just part of this is just I I kind of quote-unquote grew up on origins combat because it was kind of the first game I played with a proper melee combat system, but Yeah, just in hindsight I used to enjoy fighting in origins and I think that there is some stuff that it does well I think the I think it entirely is a matter of animations and also a mechanical depth because and when I say a mechanical depth I'm talking about like what are the sort of like extra systems that allow you to make the combat expressive, you know Ghost of Tsushima is a great example where it's expressive. You have different stances you can use you have uh different moves special moves and like combos you can do Origins has like none of that and even odyssey just by giving you those like Those timer based special abilities feels like there's at least something you can think about in that game other than Block dodge parry hit like it's just origins is complete sandwich of basics And every single encounter feels like I'm just slashing dodging slashing dodging And then on top of that the actual experience of landing a hit Or dodging an attack just has no Weight to it. There's no juice. There's no satisfying curve to the animation at all whatsoever And I just did not did not like I think we're in Jacer said this as well, uh to me I I think Whereas vahala is like it's it's really crunchy and raity and it's and it's really it's really heavy combat system Origins has that way more so than vahala does. I think origins is pretty weighty Yes, and it's pretty rewarding and fun and great. It's a great combat system I I I love how you know in jacers in jacers. There's like nothing to think about other than hitting and dodging What difficulty are you playing on? I'm playing on normal well me too. I I don't feel like it's that mindless I think it's super engaging Especially when you're when you're fighting the falakis If spamming the dodge button is all you need to be engaged Maybe even in vahala just the fact that there are like two different health bars You can reduce different ways and then stun and stun attack an enemy Like that is an example of there being at least something you can strategize about Or think about on a different level like that's something I like I do think that vahala does do a bit more with the combat because they put so much more focus on it there's also the whole like Crazy-ass dual wielding thing that at least lets you be more expressive With the way you choose your style or how you fight or whatever Yeah, the thing is do I think that vahala does a good enough job Justifying its length with the additions to the combat system. I don't no no not at all I don't think it justifies its length I'm just saying like if I'm going to compare the experience I have in one and combat encounter Uh between the three games origins. I'm having the worst time Yeah, I do I do think that vahala is probably an objectively better system if you look at it from Like just as as a hitbox based combat system X Y and Z. This is like it does this better I think vahala did learn from some things at origins, but for me, I still prefer origins Entirely subject subjectively. I also think too like In vahala, I never really had as as much and also to be clear I don't want to suggest that origins does everything better than vahala does There are some quality of life improvements that vahala has Over the you know origins odyssey system that would be nice In origins, I feel like there was a lot of care put into like You have you have these different kinds of weapons and like they all operate differently I was using a scepter at the beginning and then I Transferred over to dual swords and then now I'm using a regular sword and shield and like That's super rewarding to me And I feel like my my combat strategy changes on it because if I'm using dual swords, I'm super quick I can just keep moving around if I'm using just a sword and shield I might be a little bit more Open to just standing still and dodging with my shield and whatnot. I'm sorry I'm sorry. I don't like the combat system I really enjoyed it and and I guess to clarify what I was saying about like best in the series I'm always going to have a soft spot for ac1, but in terms of I'd rather go back to origins combat than any other game Maybe besides ac1 and I think there's more to do in origins combats than there is an ac1 combat So, yeah, I think ultimately probably so I don't want to give it to concrete because I might change my mind later But I guess for now I'll say so. Yeah, I feel like origins has the same problem all the other modern games do of just The looking cartoony, you know because you're Spliting across the field and and that cinematic quality that even ac1 had is something I still desperately miss Well, how did you feel about stealth? How'd you feel about stealth in origins? Yeah Not terrible. Okay, but not great I I didn't have the worst time with it But I also didn't try to like really be as stealthy as possible all the time Just because I wanted to get through the game faster And it almost never is the fastest way to get through. I mean, I try I did my best I I don't hate the stealth experience in these games to be honest I think valhalla has probably the worst stealth, but odyssey gets frustrating because Something that's true of odyssey stealth that I don't think necessarily is true in origins in origins. You're in a fort You get seen by somebody Okay, and then if you kill them or you run away from them Then you're good in odyssey. I felt like I constantly had the whole fort on my ass if somebody saw me Like one person sees me and then they go bring the bell and then everyone's On me until I until I leave the area completely and come back Yeah, detection spreads very quickly and odyssey and valhalla which is in origins. It's a lot. It's a lot more localized. Yeah, exactly You know, it's it's the it's the bush stealth. You're just you're hiding you can whistle You you can whistle was like frustratingly inconsistent for me I had a lot of times I whistled and just nobody could hear me and it didn't feel right and That's you know was a pain in the ass fairly frequently Did you know that you could shoot projectiles from haystacks? Yeah, you can okay jacers told me about that and I had no idea until I did it All right, so here's my take on origin stealth the stealth and assassins create origins Is held back by its sat gating that is a fact No one can argue that the biggest that is that is the system's biggest problem because number one Stat gated stealth kills like assassinations not being guaranteed killed Guaranteeing kills is a problem. The second thing is that there are a number of tools Yeah, I'd say mainly flush decay and poison dart Which simply do not do enough damage to kill most people that are at your level So there isn't really a reason to use them The best thing that origins does for stealth is that it has a few tools that are really useful Mainly sleep darts smoke bombs Eagle harass and whistling and then of course your hunter bow Hunter bow is basically just like the fastest way to to instantly kill weak people because assassination animations take way too long in this game And another thing that's worth mentioning is that senu Like this game added that mechanic and that that mechanic is really useful for stealth because It lets you not need to look at a mini map all the time You can just scan out the place and then you can see everyone through walls And you can just like rush through the area sleep darting guys You know dropping smoke bombs off of ledges into groups Throwing sleep darts into camp campfires to make all of them fall asleep with sleep gas You know, you can do all that sort of stuff. I'm broadly speaking a fan of the bird vision So I I guess I guess before we like kind of get final thoughts going I did want to talk about the RPG elements because That's going to be important attention for this game and these games my biggest thing with RPG elements in this game is I think what we should consider And I know I talked I talked a little bit with jacers about this privately and I know he agrees with this They're way less agree just in vahalas like everything in terms of like armor And things that up up damage in terms of like your bow and in your melee and everything that's all craftable stuff You don't have to go and fight a level 100 beaver to get a certain To get a certain pelt You know what I mean like you just can go and shoot a deer and upgrade your stuff And if you want carbon crystals go ready to camp and so that's all very controlled by how much effort you want to put in And like in vahala, you're not only constantly having to manage your weapons But you're also having to constantly manage your armor sets making sure that they all fit together appropriately And then you're also having to put runes on those weapons, you know, I it's it's in terms of compared to odyssey and vahala it's very interesting to Go throughout the entirety of origins and barely looking different because I still have the base outfit, of course And I have a breastplate. Yeah, and it's not like there's really armor. You just have outfits and gear That's true There's just less to have to worry about and the the weapons I always felt like I always got a weapon that was useful and so I could just sell or dismantle origins Yeah, and so I could just sell or dismantle another weapon and Always keep my inventory pretty clean and vahala inventory management is held and it's not in this game And I think that's a part of wanting. Uh, I highly disagree on the grounds of whether or not inventory management is held I appreciate that vahala All the loot from the weapons to the to the armor It's a one item that's in one place that you can get once origins Even though it's just weapons in this game Is randomly constantly generating Different iterations of the same weapons with the same models but different stats and different levels based on where you're at And just filling your Your inventory with various copies of the same weapons over and over and over again And I did definitely did not even the first time playing through Feel like every time I got a weapon it was useful to me in some way Like I was constantly having to go through and like oh haven't looked at my weapons in a while Time to fucking dismantle them all Guess I'll spend a good 20 minutes doing that. I will clarify what I meant by useful I didn't necessarily mean that like this weapon is now better than what I have what I mean is They are sure it's not like I'm getting a level 12 weapon when I'm at level 20 So like the progression is is clear when I'm in a higher level area I'm probably gonna get like it's worth it for me to loot stuff because I'm probably gonna get something That's high enough for my level But also I'm pretty sure that that that scale of like what you loot Has nothing to do with where you are and entirely just to do with what level you're at So if I go back to C was level 60 meji I'm gonna get a level 60 sword in that chest So I don't even feel like it's connected to the world at all You know perhaps process isn't the case because it's you know, I have played origins now more recently in vahala But I felt like in vahala I would get more things that just Weren't like because there's certain gear sets that are around a lot I felt like I would you could stumble upon a gear set that's clearly like useful for a lower level character Right, you know, I mean, I I understand you don't fuck with it Clearly like it's not my first choice for an ac game to have these elements in it I know I know I did think that they were fun and engaging and I also it's just it's so strange because it's like Origins is like the vahala sequel that I want. It's It's a bridge between that and classic ac for me And it's so crazy that it came out before those games Like if I had played origins Like if origin that had just come out and I played it my my my opinion of the series be way different. I think Really? That's so interesting to me. I think that's fair I definitely agree with the idea that it's a bridge because there are still some of those classic ac elements they're carrying you through but Man, they're like as just one example of a of a thing that I vastly Prefer vahala's approach to is I just hate the whole mentality and origins and odyssey of clearing locations That any fort you show up to has a checklist of activities to complete and then you can consider that fort checked off I I hate that because yeah, that's fair. That's kind of annoying. Yeah I I feel like I have to do it all the time But it's not like fun or rewarding or engaging. It's just busy work It's just checklists And then in vahala it was a breath of fresh air that I could see a location on the map that was a fort And there's no status of whether that fort is cleared or not cleared There may be something in there that I want Be it a mystery or a wealth marker and if I wanted I can go in and get I agree But I don't have to feel like that fort is an activity on a checklist to be completed for sure 100 percent I agree with you for sure. Yeah, that's definitely a benefit of vahala Yeah, I I I totally agree. I mean, you know even like jesus was telling me jesus was telling me like just don't clear all the locations It's really tedious For that reason I'll clear every location that the story brings me to naturally if I have to go to this fort for a quest I might as well clear it out while I'm there But yeah, no trying to clear every location, which I did eventually do Uh in origins is a nightmare of stupidity and time wasting. So it's even worse in odyssey It's a lot worse in odyssey and I have done both I think I think what sells the whole fort clearing thing for me is that In case you don't know, I'm a pretty big stealth guy So when I see a stealth when I see a when I see a stealth a fort. I'm like, oh cool stealth level And the level design in origins is actually pretty darn good most of the time so Like I I just enjoy doing that sort of thing now if if it's not Something that appeals to you like very heavily like sure like lost and I'm sure you appreciate salt But I don't know if you appreciate as much as I do. I'm not as good at it as you are I appreciate it in the sense that like you I would like it to be my main mode of interacting with an ac game or a game in general But I will fail at it most times out of that. I tried to do it So I'll end up having to do some combat It is not common for me that I get through a fort or assassin's creed level without having to kill someone in combat But I try my best that's fair But yeah origins because you can see through walls really easily it actually like Enables me to do that and I feel like The the level design is really well suited for that purpose It's that you know if you use the height advantages you use the tools, you know The bushes that are like they're not actually super like gamey in the way they're placed Like it doesn't feel like a video game that like oh, it's like, you know Do you know some tailing sequences in black flag? We're like and then you run to this bush and then you run to this bush and you can like see like The invisible hand at the developers origins doesn't feel like that And I can really appreciate that in the forts in those in that game So I feel like that's that's what makes like I enjoy doing forts I don't plan on 100%ing the game again because that just takes too long But you know the forts although the checklist isn't good I feel like they are still a good part of the game if you if you're into like, you know Clear and stealth levels and stuff one thing tim mentioned to me is that origins would really benefit from having a manual save system Because then you could like reload a save it then like if you if you mess up like you were talking about like If you reloaded a save and all the guards are in the same spots Then like try it just try again. It's like resetting a checkpoint But origins doesn't write that because because there's many times in origins where I felt like I You know, I was doing particularly well and I would love to just be like, okay, let me save who I'm safe, you know, and then like now I can be a little bit more experimental and Like maybe let me try this and it doesn't work Then I can I understand it could be cheap just to always be able to fall back on a save But it it isn't when you consider that origins When you die and you respond any number of enemies can respond to me I'd never noticed a Any rhyme or reason to it So it does suck that like you mess up once and perhaps you die or If you're like sometimes what I would do is I would just let them kill me because I want to like stealth at all And then like a bunch of them will will respawn and it's really it's really unfortunate So yeah, I think a manual save would have would have benefited At least for the stealth sections Can I just say something I briefly thought of too is that, you know Something they really hyped up with this game is this idea that You know all the NPCs they have their set routines and their paths And and there's that persistence to the world where you know, if you get a target that target has a routine They do something different at night than they do at day and and that can create a different setup for for how you plan to kill them I wish that that had Any like actual meaning or purpose or significance to it or changed the way you play the game at all But it really kind of doesn't Uh, you see the blurbs of info that you get for the quest and and sometimes you take advantage of it But it's not like you're going to have a drastically different experience if you ignore those or you don't Um and that if there was actual social stealth or or a game that was designed around social stealth Those things could be more meaningful because it could mean that like based on a certain time of day or location You'll have more opportunities to blend in or more more sure things you can do but But ultimately it just doesn't work Yeah, the crocodile assassination really sticks out to me for that one because Her estate like there are people partying at it. Yeah, like that's the perfect place You know sneak into a party assassin's creed for you know, there's that party you sassinate that dude from the bench But what is it? What's roger's assistant name? Yeah, you dress up as the governor Yeah, stuff like that like where you do that social stealth like origins has What what's another example the bath house assassination? Yeah, that was that was a good one There's stuff that feels like it was designed for social stealth to exist in the game But it's just not there. Yeah, I agree Which is really strange like it feels like an assassin's creed assassination But you can't play it like one, I guess, you know, I will say lesson I I I agree with you partly. I did utilize some of that stuff like, you know waiting till night time It's always easier at night time to do stuff like that I had a really fun anecdote at the like very beginning of the game Like the first assassination I was clearing a fort and I was doing like a separate quest Like I guess I was extracting some dude or whatever it was and I had no idea that the guy was just patrolling And I I cover assassinating him because I thought he was a normal guard And then I get a memory quarter sequence. I'm like, what the fuck is happening? And it's it's the assassination and and then by like just starts beating him with the apple. I'm like, what the fuck? I did not mean to do this. I did not mean to do this at all And so like there's definitely some some like there was some fun moments like that about it, which is cool like I I was not expecting to be able to kill him that in that moment And speaking of once you realize that every single actual gameplay mission in the game Is going to require you to go to a location that already exists and that you could clear at any point and Either kill someone or free someone there or loot something there Like those are the only verbs of gameplay that you actually get As far as reasons to be in these locations things to do in them I mean outside of those little Investigation moments, which are few and far between and also aren't really gameplay. It's just a different way to present information Uh, yeah all in all just yeah So so boring and bland and so much of this game Which is why which is why I praise the the bath house assassination Because they actually built something completely unique as same thing with the julia cesar assassination is they actually built this entire area Just for this level more limited set piece where Where you're in a level it almost starts to do the things that that that style of design does to your brain of making you feel like you're in a a curated designed Gameplay moment that was created for you to experience in a particular way And the the open-ended persistent thing can be exciting and fun in a different way Really what they wanted this game to do and be is is replicate the sense that black flag gave you with the open sees That sense that it's an anecdote factory that things could go any particular way that you might have a close call That would be an exciting story on its own But I don't really ever feel like in any of these three games Like that I have that experience on any level. I had one I I had an anecdote factor experience and I actually told I message jacers when it happened I said i'm gonna save it for the podcast because I didn't want to So like well, you're welcome for setting you up for it right now. Thanks, dude I so I was doing it was a side quest and this guy who's in a fort And I know you love it when quests take you to forts and so He was in this fort and he was being held captive there and so I was like, okay, well I thought I had an opening and so I ran to his cage and I was gonna stab him And uh, turns out I didn't have the opening and people spotted me And so I dodged at the right moment and the sword swing Missed me and hit his cage and so he goes running I run away and then the guards chase him stab him and I walk up afterwards and I confirmed kill on it It was incredible And then That's what they wanted you to do. That's the experience. They wanted you to have Yeah, and then once I kill him I get like a memory corridor sequence and everything for a side quest I mean, what the fuck it's it was amazing. It was like that was that was when I was like Oh origins You're in my top three now The god And actually I'll say that when the other two games introduced things like the cult and the uh, and the order of ancients trees Those almost bring out some of those moments for me of like, oh, I found one randomly And I didn't even know I was killing an order of the ancient or or anything like that Like those are those are those almost work and even the mercenary system and in In odyssey get some of that the falake system in in origins. I Almost never interacted with in new game plus because it's kind of pointless too But uh, there's something nice about like, oh, there's only 10 of these in the whole game So when you kill one it feels significant Yeah, I had the exact feeling like when I when I saw that there was a quest like when I killed one finally I think that's when it starts the quest to kill them all and I'm like Oh my god, that's amazing I think the approach that origins tries to take to Just to designing stealth levels is something kind of like hitman where the player is given a lot of There's kind of an open-ended thing but the issue is that hitman has, you know, their opportunity system And origins doesn't really do that it kind of doesn't it's good to give your player freedom and lots of agency In the in the way that they conduct their stealth sequences, but in the absence of any curated, you know Like unique level design it just feels like doing open world content and which if you like that Then you're gonna enjoy it But if you're getting tired of it, then you're gonna be doing a lot of that. Yeah, you're doing the same thing over and over again It's like the building blocks are all so plainly visible You see how all of this content was arranged and produced for you and you don't feel like there's that artistic touch to it And that's the thing we've lamented so many times is that if every assassination mission gives you total freedom Then you find the one way you like doing them and you keep doing them that way forever And without in the absence of a system like opportunities or achievements or whatever to like actually encourage you to experiment with the tools You're just gonna keep uh, you know killing guards with hunter arrows and calling it a fucking day I wanted to ask What you guys thought about egypt we haven't really talked about like egypt Yeah, egypt is interesting because I definitely found myself appreciating the atmosphere and the aesthetic of the world the ambiance of it I definitely appreciate that the you know really harshly color graded vivid sandy like world but It's hard not to be disappointed by Obviously just how much of the world is sand dunes that have nothing interesting to do in them So while I appreciate the ambiance and it's probably a more aesthetically rich Location than either of the other games in this trilogy provide you I still probably felt like I got to engage with the world more in both other games as opposed to just You know running it underneath my feet while I go from point A to point B. That's fair I think if I had to describe the way that I feel about the world in origins I think the main thing is just It feels like you said that said this at the beginning of the episode loson It just feels systemic and what I mean is like if you look at the way that The world is designed like there are there are guard patrols going around. They'll just walk down the street They'll you know get out of the way. They're carrying like iron or wood or stuff like that There's ships in you know the oceans and the lakes transporting goods and stuff and that's just Always happening, you know civilians are going to the market. They're going to sleep like this actually feels like They they they put effort into making the world feel like it's alive and feel immersive and like Stuff happens when you're not doing anything which I think is is interesting and I feel like Vahala kind of doesn't do that as much because it feels like all of the content is very very Contained to you know the dots on the map It feels like you know the enemies are at the dots and that's kind of the only places where they are Or like if they're in cities, you know, they're just kind of in cities But they're not really doing like there's no There's no patrols. There's no Like beyond like, you know basic guards walk here. This is their patrol road. There's not like dynamic, you know convoys There's no and of course there's a deep decreased focus on naval But there's none of that at all in this game. So it just kind of feels Like the world is more alive. I guess as a way it's not like you know red dead too alive But it does feel more alive. I agree in in in origins And definitely more so than odyssey for sure odyssey's world is It has some shortcomings Pretty much where we're jacers is that I I really enjoy it sometimes. I mean, I just it looks beautiful There are some parts where it's like, I mean, you know, it kind of looks the same But I feel like there's a better excuse for that here than it is like in vahal in vahal It all looks the same like the entire map But I yeah, I do like Egypt and I like being in it. There's some cool parts of it and the I I like going in the pyramid sometimes. I feel like vahala does have that better like puzzle labyrinth Exploitation going in it, but I did like that. Anyway. Yeah, that's it overall to kind of wrap up and give my final thoughts Considering that I haven't played this game Since 2017 I was ready to reappraise it in the context of Is it better than odyssey? Is it better than vahala? Is it really the best of the mythological trilogy and I was kind of Expecting it to be more or less on this playthrough because Of a lot of the things that tim that you like about it Same as you jacers as far as the aesthetic and the ambiance goes the slightly more Grounded in classical ac elements of it The movement being a little better the the combat being a little simpler the the stealth, right? Or just the fact that there's no fucking dialogue options. That's a big plus Or that the story is only 30 hours instead of 60 or 100 All these things I was ready to be like, yeah origins is a better game but in the end I kind of can't because The story is still just it's just piss. It is just buttery piss There's nothing going for it in the story department. Never any narrative connection for me and then I just as far as the gameplay differences go between this and the other games Not only for me was it not substantially better in any real regard other than except parkour sometimes a navigation But even then not that great of a time I it's just ultimately I've got to give the story points Uh to the other games and I generally enjoy navigating their worlds more To me for from what what's important to me and for what my criteria are Origins is the worst Mythological trilogy game. I know that's controversial. I know that's not a popular opinion, but you know what? We're here to say the real shit. We're here to say how we really feel. It's time to be brave It's time to speak out not Lawson's cup of tea not not for me not my cup of game Not my type of tea Yes, what about you tim? Yeah, I mean, uh I uh, I really enjoy it. I really love it. Um the kind of now Stories awful But look Yubi soft does not care about good stories for ac I think that's present by how many of them actually do have good stories I think they they just kind of put a little money and a little effort into like making some cut scenes So like people don't think it's too too, uh detached from their normal gaming experience But yeah, I don't think they care about their story and and then having good ones great stories and ac are Sadly few and far between very much so And yeah, I uh So I'm making my way. I finished hidden ones. I'm making my way through fairs now And then I'm going to start a new game plus after that. So Uh, really? Oh, yeah, I'm I'm probably playing this for a while So you're actually liking it quite a bit. Oh a hundred percent. I'm hooked I'm going to finish Faro's and I'm going to start a new game plus and then We'll see what happens. I might just replay it on like an annual basis maybe but I don't know but Yeah, so So, so are you I mean, where would it sit in your rankings now if you had to guess? I thought I thought I said that already. I don't think you did. I said earlier. It was in my top three He said top it's in your top three now. Yeah, it beat rogue Can I be clear about one thing? You've said a number of positive things about origins that in this episode that I thought you were being sarcastic So like I'm kind of only realizing now that you actually really like it really Well, keep in mind, you know, our conversations over text about origins have been very minimal, you know For good like because I wanted to be surprised. I wanted to know in the episode recording But in the conversations you and I have had they've not been positive I was doing that so that you wouldn't think I liked it. I didn't think you like it And they still didn't until just now Yeah Tim talks about how much he likes origins for like like more than an hour and a half and then Lawson's like I still don't I get it. He's actually being serious with me until This is a real plot twist Tim just M. Night Shyamalan's my ass. So okay, you love it. You love origins Yeah, I said that at the beginning I know you did but I didn't believe you. Yeah, I 100% Yeah, I'm on team origins right now. Holy shit What the all right, uh, my final thoughts Assassin's Creed origins is a game that I will always really like it's a game that I I built a deep connection with because it was my first time playing an assassin's creed game And you know, it's just a pleasure like the the game plays well. It comes back to it's like It's a very polished experience and it doesn't really do a lot of stuff that I don't like it doesn't it does what you tell it to basically is it's one of which You know isn't always the case with assassin's creed games So it's unfortunate that that's like a selling point but you know it kind of is and you know, it just It appeals to me in a way that you know, just a lot of other games don't it's not in my top five it's probably number six or seven but Yeah, it's it's you know, it's the middle of the road I enjoy quite a bit But I am perfectly willing to acknowledge the many flaws that it does indeed have because you know It has a bunch of my brain still has just not caught up. I'm so fucking I'm gonna be listening to this in editing right after we're done just going What were the signs? What did I miss? Holy fuck So all right Yeah, Lawson's like my Tim just going to call this So your list basically goes revelations ac2 Origins yep, and then like rogue and then black flag Yeah, probably Holy fuck, dude. Well, okay. I have to consider that now. I have to make a new list, but yeah that tentatively Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, but I we're gonna have to refresh our lists when we're done with all this just a little Yeah, I I'd say like, you know some some time in the next couple episodes We'll just do a little a little listy update, you know But but it's time for you to confirm it's time for you to answer the question that's been on everyone's mind Timothy You know the question Am I gonna play odyssey? Are you gonna play odyssey? Are we doing it? Can we do it? Um, all right. Well, I'll say I'll say here now that I will play odyssey Damn for for what it's worth. I have not known until this moment that Tim would play odyssey I've just been trying to get him to for For months. I asked him about he said who says I'm playing odyssey, so this is new for me as well Yeah, I was like, okay So when you play odyssey for the next episode he's like Tim's just like who says I'm playing odyssey I'm like, okay fair enough. We're gonna play odyssey and then cancel the show because at that point like why bother continuing Yeah, if we're not getting a new ec game until 2023 then like no, uh, don't comment God, I'm trying to I'm wondering how different this episode would have gone if I knew the whole time that you were dead ass about liking origins I feel like it might have been a bit different But you know I I'm gonna blame it on the fact that I'm tired and And also that tim lied to me several times repeatedly the whole time. I'm like I'm like I actually lost and I disagree with you About origins. You're like, wait, do you still dislike this game? But we are all in agreement that the story Sucks, we're all in agreement the story sucks and yes, and I get it tim and I have always Had very different levels to which we prioritize stories. So that's normal. That's fine But damn for sure top three and y'all and y'all are going wow in 2017. You said this was a top three I'm sorry jacers tim's saying it right now That's what he just said With that in mind, I can't wait to see what you think of odyssey because I think I'm gonna like it less probably Yeah, we'll see. I've committed myself to it. So I guess there's not any getting out of it. Yeah You heard it here first folks. I just got to find a way to get it for really cheap I don't want to I don't want to buy it hit up the donate link in the description to get Tim's tim's odyssey fund going I Please I don't want the money started go funding Are we getting a hook played patreon real soon? Well, I've been the blade I I've I don't know what I've been anymore. I don't know what anything is. I'm questioning my reality I'm in a mirage I've been the hook or so I or so I'm told and I've you know Still really glad I wasn't in sewer that day sniffing that air because you know that bike He's a madman come for you whether you were ancient or not Well, it's been fun. I guess. Thank you for listening Thanks for supporting the show Like us comment on it Follow us on twitter at hook played And tell us in the comments What you thought about that 2017 game assassins creed Oregon's We'll see you next time Oregon's because mommies and stuff Yeah