 Welcome and aloha My name is Mark schlaufe. I am the host of think tech Hawaii's law across the sea program Today we will go across the sea to Seattle To talk with Dan Harris the founder of Harris Brickin an international law firm with offices in Seattle and other US cities And also in foreign countries with cities like Barcelona and Beijing hosting their law firms Dan and other lawyers in his firm share their extensive knowledge and experience on their website blogs The firms China law blog is one of my favorites It's a great source of information and intellectual discussion about law and business in China Dan says that keeping it simple is what works I've asked him to share his knowledge and experience and the insights Gain from him his firms international law practice and To keep it simple Aloha Dan, how are you? Good. How are you mark? Okay? All right, and I don't feel appropriate to say aloha because I Don't I think my sweater compared to your Aloha shirt really evidences the difference. That's a little colder in Seattle. I guess, huh? Yeah, I'm just assuming it is Okay now Tell us a little bit about your firm first Harris Brickin what what it is how many offices you have Where and and what it does give us a little background, please Sure We think of ourselves as a small to mid-sized firm. We have about 35 lawyers offices in Seattle Portland Los Angeles basically along the coast and Also in Beijing and Barcelona because so much of our work involves China and Spain and what we do is help foreign companies Navigate the United States and We help American and European companies navigate Asia Okay, and I you know in you also do some work in Latin America. I understand from your website and Cannabis law I Mean that's a little interesting especially for us in the 60s, but what what is that all about? What is Latin American law? What what do you do there? Well, Latin America has become sort of a logical extension. We're actually working on Opening an office in Mexico City, which we hope to do fairly soon. What's happened there is Our Spain work is pushing us to Latin America And in the last year and a half or so our Asia work has been pushing us to Latin America as well because so many of our clients that manufacture in China are looking to get out of China and we're very bullish on Mexico and Colombia and various other countries in Latin America and so we're doing more and more in Latin America and previously we've done quite a bit with Latin American companies going into Asia where we've represented them Well, that's really interesting. I'm sorry. Yeah, go go on to the cannabis boat that Latin America is really interesting To hear now what's happening in real time that China Business contacts are interested in Latin America that that's an interesting in insight. Yeah, but Because just about 10 minutes ago, I finished reading an article in Forbes I can repose one of their senior contributors who If I were to summarize his article, it's basically China is done over to put as an international manufacturing center and he is Positing that Mexico is going to be the country that most benefits from that and that has been our position as well We're not saying China is completely done It will never be completely done, but a lot of companies view the coronavirus as simply the last straw in terms of their Manufacturing in China and certainly in terms of they're doing all their manufacturing in China Okay. Now, what about cannabis law that I mean, I was a little bit surprised to see that on your website What does that mean? Well, it means that I believe it was back in 2009 We had a Dutch client that Essentially insisted we needed to get into the cannabis business. This was a large relatively large Dutch cannabis company and they were telling us that Washington State was going to be at the forefront of this and My first thought was well, that's ridiculous and then we determined that wasn't so ridiculous so we helped them and one thing led to another and We became essentially the first and biggest cannabis business law firm in the state of Washington basically in 2010 and That practice has spread to Oregon and California as well We have a blog the Canada law blog that writes about this and now our big push is Internationalization of cannabis because Canada is big Mexico is going legal on a in April So our two neighbors are going to be completely legal China is a huge producer of hemp and CBD products and a lot of cannabis Ancillary products like vape pens Filters, etc are made in China and We're we've done actually a lot of customs work helping clients get their products unstuck from US customs when customs has seized those products Alleging that they're illegal like for instance, we have a big retail cannabis client and their paper bags got seized by customs because they had pot leaves on them and They were saying that the bags were Essentially illegal and our response was no bags cannot paper bags cannot be illegal We could use these or anyone could use these to take their lunch to work or to school and and we ended up getting the paper bags released and so we Formally call ourselves probably the only international cannabis law firm out there because even on the cannabis side So much of our work is International we expect that to only grow as well and and basically it sounds like your job as Cannabis lawyers if you will Is to keep it keep your clients out of trouble keep them legal Whatever they're doing That's our job with all our clients And many respects it's it's really no different with Canada's Even when I mean in countries like Canada it is no different But in in let's say Washington State, Oregon, California where it's legal in the state We make very clear to our clients that it's still federally illegal and we emphasize that if you're in Oregon You have to follow Oregon law Ditto if you're in Washington or in California, okay? I personally don't do cannabis work Well, other than I've helped cannabis manufacturing companies with China Yeah, and and and China is kind of your field, right? I mean, that's your area of your basic area of law, right? Yes, mostly China a little bit of some Vietnam some Cambodia some Thailand a lot of of manufacturing Contracts a lot of intellectual property contracts intellectual property registrations and also Technology licensing yeah, it a lot of it sounds like a lot of what you do is contracts in a way I mean the the the industry may be different But what you're doing is you're negotiating or helping write the contract in China or is that correct? That's that is a lot of what we do. I mean we have At least a dozen lawyers who focus on China most of them are fluent in Chinese and English and We help our clients with whatever help they need in China. I mean we've done M&A deals We have one lawyer whose focus is almost exclusively Employment law in China we draft manufacturing contracts licensing agreements Distribution agreements a lot of what we do in China for our clients is the same Sort of thing that lawyers do for their clients in the United States It's really not as exotic as it sounds. Well on the contract side I'm sorry We just do a lot of it in another language. Yeah. Yeah, and so how do you manage that? I mean your contracts? I mean, is there a problem with that having a contract in Chinese or how do you deal with that? What do you tell your clients about contracts and doing business in China in that respect with respect to the language? Okay, well, it's interesting. You should ask is there a problem doing the contracts in Chinese the answer is no the problem usually arises when American companies put the contracts in English because that causes problems in China American companies and even American lawyers have essentially been trained to Believe that the best court to have a dispute resolved in is the one in your hometown That is not true when dealing with China because if you have a contract with a Chinese company That says the dispute will be resolved in Honolulu or in Seattle And then it's resolved in Honolulu or Seattle. You think you've won a lawsuit. You have won a lawsuit Sort of you've won nine-tenths of the lawsuit You have not won the most important remainder and that is actually setting yourself up to be able to collect And so you win that lawsuit in Seattle or Honolulu Then you take that judgment to China where your Chinese Defendant or counterparty has all its assets You take it to a Chinese court and they won't enforce it. So a good contract 98 times out of a hundred where the Chinese company is one that's written in Chinese Written under Chinese law written for Chinese law for the dispute to be resolved in a Chinese court Sometimes it makes sense for it to be resolved by arbitration But less often than most people would believe and the interesting thing about Chinese courts Is they're way better and way fairer than most people would believe the world bank Last time I looked ranked China something like number 16 as in one six in terms of enforcing contracts and They're pretty good unless you're up against a Really powerful Chinese company in its hometown where it's losing It's losing that case might cause it to have to fire people or be badly harmed Then it gets much more marginal or if you're in a critical Technology field and you're suing a Chinese company for stealing your technology Then you're gonna have a tough time But if you're suing a Chinese company for suing your technology for making shoes and they really did steal it You'll almost certainly went well that that is kind of contrary to what you hear a lot and I guess that comes from your experience and background and What you've learned from actually doing business in China Is that yeah, yeah, that's on the ground experience Yes, but I don't want to denigrate those who say that I mean the word is China steals technology. Yeah, and There's a lot of truth to that but China I mean you really have to look at the technology and what I'm about to say is Commonly believed by lawyers who deal with China a lot and that is some people call it the 90% rule Some call it the 95% rule and that is with most technologies if your Chinese company steals it You can sue and win. It's just things like artificial intelligence robotics cutting-edge Computer chips, etc Something that is really Important to the Chinese government your chances of prevailing are very low Oh Dan I want to take a one-minute break and then we're gonna come back I want to ask you what you tell your clients about that when they come into your office and ask how am I gonna protect My intellectual property, but we'll take a minute break. We'll be right back My show is designed to teach you the simplest and most effective treatment strategies to get you out of pain And if you or someone you know is having pain in a certain area of the body It would like a free assessment in treatment over media or in person and then come on the show to talk about it Email us at think tech movement matters at gmail.com Or if you have a topic you would like to know more about please email us My goal is to decrease pain all over the world Inspiring people to take better care of their bodies to enjoy life to the fullest. I look forward to hearing from you Welcome back. I am talking with Dan Harris founder of Harris brick and law firm He's in Seattle, but his law firm is all over the world basically and I think he's Following his clients and helping them wherever they're being established now Dan when we left off We were talking about intellectual property in China. What do you tell your client? What do you tell your your client comes into the office and says he has this great Idea intellectual property wants to protect it. What what is the reality of that? I mean, I hear you saying what you know interesting that you feel that there's Protection available for certain intellectual property and it's not as bad in courts as you sometimes hear But what do you tell your client coming in about intellectual property protection? I Tell them exactly what I just told you a minute ago And what I also tell them is that even if I'm not a hundred percent right on this What are your options your options are to do something or to do nothing? And I know that I'm a hundred percent right that if you do nothing You will have no recourse if someone steals your intellectual property And so what's really interesting about China is it doesn't have much Law outside of contracts dealing with IP so for instance if you go to a manufacturer and say I'd like you to manufacture These widgets here's a drawing of my widgets And then that manufacturer goes off and Manufacturers through widgets and sells them around the world and doesn't sell you a single one You have a lousy case so You can say that the N and N agreements that we tell you you need these are agreements that you Provide and get signed by your manufacturer before you show them anything it prevents them from competing with you It's a non compete. It's a non disclosure It's a non circumvent so they can't go around you and sell to your clients Which they often have the names of because they directly ship to them if they if you don't get them to sign that I Can guarantee you won't have a good recourse and I can almost guarantee that you'll be facing big problems very shortly so You really do need a contract Also, you really do need to register your trademark in China Even if you're just manufacturing there because if you don't someone else will and They can use your trademark, which isn't yours because it's yours Maybe in the United States or Canada, but not in China They can take that trademark and stop your product from leaving China because your product violates their trademark And so I'm sorry. I kind of I kind of hear you saying We we do as much as we can up front Yes, which is true everywhere in the world I always think I used to start a speech I would give on intellectual property by saying big companies in China want to steal your IP Small companies in China want to steal your IP Medium-sized companies in China want to steal your IP Government owned companies want to steal your IP privately held companies want to steal your IP and That factory owner who you like so much who's invited you to his or her Sons or daughter's wedding that factory owner also wants to steal your IP But I was giving that talk at a law school and afterwards someone came up to me and said they felt that that was too anti-China So now I add a sentence saying this is true everywhere It's just that it's easier to do it in China and in the United States because the laws are not are different So it's not a cultural thing. It's it's human nature Hear you saying I hate it when people say something's a cultural thing It's it's it's human nature coupled with laws if you want to call that legal culture fine I don't know American American culture involves downloading Movies off of for whatever Chinese culture involves the same thing. I think that's human nature Okay, well one thing I found interesting on your website was under your name. You you say keep it simple That's what works. What do you what does that mean? I mean, how can you keep it simple? because people Have this strange natural tendency to want to complicate things and Part of that strange when it's in the form of when it's our clients who do that I think it's strange meaning we'll have clients who will call up and They're starting off With a small business and they'll tell us we you know, we're calling you we want your help Want to form a British Islands company a Virgin Islands company? Evi company to own a Hong Kong company to own a Chinese company to manufacture widgets in China and I'll ask them well 99% of our clients that are manufacturing widgets in China Do so just with a US company in a contract. Why do you need? Companies in three different countries to manufacture widgets and they'll give these complicated tax explanations or liability avoidance explanations and Those explanations might make sense for some massive company like Apple or something like that but they do not make sense for the overwhelming majority of companies and Companies think they're being smart by being more complicated lawyers and accountants like to be more complicated because it makes their clients believe they're more indispensable and It allows them to charge for more things Keep it simple keep it less expensive get it done. That's what I hear you saying Exactly and and I mean It's and that's I'm sorry that that's kind of a that that that's your philosophy really isn't that I mean Is that correct am I saying that right? Well, it's one of my philosophies definitely and it's one of the philosophies in the firm I remember an American company came to us. They had a 30 page memo from Their Russian lawyer and it was in English and it was in pretty good English and They wanted our help and I said to the client. Do you understand this memo? And the client said no And I said I don't either. I promise you if you hire us our memo will be four pages or less And you will understand it and it will have a conclusion That's keeping it simple. Okay. I don't know that we have so charged any less I mean, I think it's Mark Twain or at least it's been ascribed to Mark Twain like every other quote that's ever been I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have enough time So, I don't know it's always cheaper, but it's always better Yeah, well Mark Twain also talked about relationships and I noticed that Are at least quotes ascribed to him Talk about travel and going around the world and meeting people and it affects you. How about you? I mean our our relationships important and You know, how does it help your your practice and your clients? Well Relationships are incredibly important and I almost hesitate to say that because there's this idea That relationships the term guanshi in China means you don't need contracts. Nothing else matters. That's not true Relationships are important in China. They're important in the United States. They're important in Mexico. They're important in Spain. They're important everywhere They're important to us as a law firm We had a client who had provided fuel to a russian vessel The vessel we learned was coming into South Korea we The client had called their regular lawyer who said there's no way we can get it arrested in a day We called a law firm in Korea with which we've had a relationship for probably going on 20 years We said please Help us arrest this vessel. We cannot get you the money In advance because we don't have enough time But i'll tell you it's a good client We know they're going to pay and I will tell you that if they don't pay we will pay They said fine. They arrested the vessel that would never have happened if we had just called somebody off the internet I can tell you 20 stories like that it It matters. I can call a lawyer in russia in Colombia and say hey, I've got this question Do you have an answer and oftentimes they'll say yes, the answer is very clear It's this that saves tremendous amount of money as opposed to having to actually hire a law firm in Colombia now if it were not so simple We'd have to hire the law firm and pay them But we can get quick answers from a lot of countries around the world and a lot of these lawyers who we get quick answers from They get answers from us too. It it it goes back Uh, what comes around what goes around comes around and we've had relationships with lawyers around the world for a long time We trust them. They trust us. It makes for A much smoother much more effective representation of our clients and their clients Yeah, that's I like the mutual Mutuality of it and I like what you say about it and it makes a lot of sense Now we have about a minute left A couple questions one What have you learned from your china practice or are just life in the law? And and if somebody wants to contact you about china, how do they how do they contact you about Having getting some help in china or I guess cannabis or Marcellona or wherever Well, I'll answer the easy question first while trying to think of a good answer to the complicated The way to reach me is very easy go to the blog china law blog dot com go to our website Harris brick and dot com um And email who you think you should email off of our website in terms of what I've learned um, I think I'm going to get very Philosophical here what I've learned is and it's it's not terribly legal I've learned that generalizations about people Um Are for the most part even if somewhat accurate are pretty worthless You really have to judge people as individuals and um People tend to be a lot more similar than they are Different so long as they have not been And I wish I could think of a better word corrupted by an extreme ideology and Even china in the u.s Um, people think we're so different I think we're very very similar and I think a lot of our disputes arise from the fact that we're very very similar We're big countries that are used to being able to get along well without having to Um, worry too much about the countries around us Well, Dan, I want to thank you for sharing your knowledge. I really like that last part Uh About people and how we're pretty much in a way all the same With those certain exceptions and with the caution that you put in there And uh, I really appreciate you keeping it simple for us And uh, we look forward to talking to you again. So as we say in Hawaii, Aloha See you later. Okay