 Hello and welcome to the shakedown where we discuss criminal justice system from the inside out The goal of this podcast to explain how the criminal justice system works from policing to courts to prison to parole and how they affect all of us The hosts of the shakedown draw from personal experience and share their stories our hosts include Malone Who spent 30 years in Texas prisons and is now a published comic book artist? Dave has been in and out of prisons for most of his life and is a proud dad Both have traveled the country speaking about their experience with Texas prisons My name is Ryan aka rainforest and I spent six years in Texas prisons during which time I studied sociology Criminology and writing I now live up in Colorado where I help with local projects to help those struggling in the community And now here's our show It is a mental health podcast We started off me and my sides to myself, but I say we it's just me um started off educating on borderline personality disorder and just kind of trying to humanize it and Educate people on what it is what it is not Stuff like that and it's just kind of turned into more of a Mental health all around we we've had quite a few different people on talking about Different topics with mental health that you know should be talked about more We've had people talking about postpartum anxiety You know just their own mental health journeys and stuff like that and it's been it's been pretty incredible Very cool. Yeah Something that's definitely a lacking in prison and Texas prison system. Yeah It's lacking everywhere, but I feel like that would be one of the one of the bigger places. It's lacking It's lacking in Texas in general Yes That's why We already said Huntsville. We all thought you were going to a prison. I mean, I mean Huntsville is like no Huntsville associated with prisons in general Yeah, I think I yeah for sure that and the college that's about it. That's a college I Probably I mean I literally some of the worst years of my life was in college. So probably Well, I was gonna say around the country like the the biggest Place where people with mental illness go which tends to be jails and prisons in general Which and which is really sad that it ends up being there's no they don't really deal with the issue They just house them and that's it Well, that's just the system in general from what I understand of it They just you're there and then you're out and there's no any kind of Anything no aftercare exactly. That's that's the word. I was like, I don't want to say So it's I can go prime example that was there was a guy Who Where Ryan and I were on a trusty camp and there was a guy that I worked with in the kitchen who we called him light bulb for lack of better words and me and this guy worked side-by-side for I don't know six months or so and So I get out and I'm working the door working security for a bar And this guy's homeless walking down the street and I see him and I'm like I'm looking at him He's walking up and I'm like it gets up close to me. I was like damn That's light bulb and I was like look out light bulb and he had no recollection of who I was and he was completely out of it and You know as it turns out talking to him later again is you know, he's wasn't on any kind of medication because They didn't provide him with anything except what he left the prison with which was whatever he had left, you know, yeah And it's crazy because he was completely lucid normal, you know for appeared normal anyways I should say however But it no he wouldn't and you know again, you know, it's lack or no aftercare Yeah, it's not I Not like they set them up with psychology or psychiatry after or make sure that they stay up on their meds or any kind of Treatment after the fact for sure and that's a huge problem But they brought you on to try to convince me I needed help No, no, no, I don't I don't really do that convincing that's gonna be We got you Like a lack of mental health aftercare contributes to the recidivism rate As well. Oh, yeah, definitely Yeah, I absolutely agree. There's a lot of things We assume that when something, you know, someone played their breaks law or does something that it's considered a crime And then we just put them away for a while and then they get back out on the street that That's gonna magically prevent the thing from happening again And we're not gonna give them that it's not like we give them a whole lot of tools either when they're locked up Do something different or learn or figure out? A new path because it's it's hard. It's hard to learn something a new way to deal with like Do you talk about like coping skills and mental health strategies on on your show or things like that or yeah We do I actually in a few future episodes. We're gonna be talking with a couple of people that work on like somatic healing energy healing, but also how to manage stress in the workplace and Coping strategies with that and you know stuff like that. We're still expanding with the podcast But that was a huge thing that well while I'm not a therapist and I'm not a substitute for mental health treatment I'd like to be a gateway to helping people kind of figure out Ways to cope with things because mental health in general is not very accessible right now To anybody it is absolutely a privilege and it shouldn't be that way That's true. I agree with it. What do you think some that some people are afraid to ask for the help as well Absolutely. I mean I'm very very open about my mental health journey and my struggles and even then I still get people that are like Okay, you've talked about this enough like It's just you know, people don't want to necessarily hear it. They want to hear. Oh, I'm doing okay. I'm all right They want to hear vague. They want to hear this they hear that but then there's certain jobs where if you get mental health help it's kind of like a black mark or like a blacklist on your jacket or something like Case in point. I know that it's really difficult for people in the military to access mental health help which they all should be but because You know the shit that they see like Somebody's got to be looking at that um So They really can't access the help because you know, they may not be able to get deployed They may not be able to you know, do this that or the third and it Because they're all oh get help get help get help but but also don't get help and that's kind of how it is overall Like if you actually get help for what you what you do what you're dealing with what you're seeing whether it's You know first responders people that have gone through a ton of trauma It's also at the same time Well, don't don't do that because you know, we just want to we just want to kind of put it under the rug And I have a huge problem with that obviously, oh Yeah, I do too, but it's it but that seems to be the norm, you know, and then people also want to put their own Mental health issues, you know sweep them under the rug as well because they don't want anybody to think they're different And I never thought about that like you said in the workplace to where it could impede like, you know career advancement or things like that Yeah, I mean any kind of high-stress job or environment you should be talking to a therapist and Not only is it kind of Unofficially frowned upon it's hard to access because it's expensive and The cost of being alive these days is astronomical. So, you know, it's either pay my rent or go to therapy and You know insurance insurances are a whole other if you have insurance It's a whole other, you know, trying to find a therapist that works with your insurance And, you know, if you're going through the state for mental health help There's only a certain amount of time that you can be accessing therapy before they kick you out because The state a lot of states are just like, okay Well after two years like you should be good to go and it's like no if you're dealing with a lot of complex trauma and a lot of Things that kind of keep happening. It's gonna take more than two years done back that shit a lot in prison a lot of guys I know too they it's like they it becomes a pride issue too like they become it's a huge like if They it like whatever they say it has to be right. They're right They know what they're talking about and even the idea that they're talking like The cop like if you're questioning their like what they would consider their sanity or with or how much they know like that becomes a huge deal and even The few programs that exist in prisons They honestly a lot of times they'll reaffirm that they'll double down in Like there's authentic manhood classes which are meant to be like you're supposed to be the man and you're supposed to be the person who Like runs the household and takes care of this and takes care of that So like then it becomes like you need to have an iron fist and you need to know exactly what you're talking about When it comes to all these things and that makes it makes a bad problem far worse With there's any sort of mental health problem, which there that clearly are going to be coming right out fresh out of prison Yeah, well, I mean you're coming out of a literal institution Into the free world where things are not as regimented. You have more free will x y z I feel like that would kind of screw with you a little bit, but to add to what you were saying I'm I'm not a guy so I don't understand mental men's mental health fully, but I do have a lot of I guess colleagues that are in that Their podcasts are about men's mental health and stuff and you hear that a lot that men are supposed to be tough men Aren't supposed to show emotion men aren't supposed to this men aren't supposed to that and that compounds on the whole Don't ask for help because you've got this you have to handle this and I think that also that kind of twisted I guess toxic mentality also contributes To the mental health issue and why they're not asking for help and why they're not Because then they're seen as weak or they're seen as you know The opposite of what asking for help is which is you're actually being really brave For saying I can't handle this right now. I need to figure out a way to handle this So I can be a better person so I can be a better father husband son Uncle whatever and I just I don't understand why we haven't like Come to that conclusion yet I I don't quite understand that either why that was one of the first things Like I was fortunate enough to actually go to addiction treatment. That was one of the first things I had to break down was Because everyone as soon as they come in they're like no I need to talk to my family No, I needed to reach out to this. I know I'm taking care of this person like no you're in treatment You're in the emergency, right? Yeah, this is your time right now Work on that then you can worry about other people way down the line I mean just bottom line if you can't fix yourself how you're gonna fix that or you know help anybody else Exactly. No the thing with addiction is I know like I'm sure it's a little different now because I I haven't done My research on it lately, but I know that like the big thing was when they started coming out with dual diagnosis treatment centers And stuff like that where they were actually finally treating the underlying Trauma that usually comes with addiction instead of just trying to get somebody clean and send them out the door They actually started working on the mental health and the trauma and you know all the reasons why Somebody becomes addicted to something because nobody wakes up and goes I'm going to be addicted to x y z There's it's usually there's usually a reason so the fact that um You were lucky enough to go to So were were you a was it I can't talk today Was it more of a dual diagnosis where they were working on your mental health or was it just working on the addiction? Well, the the treatment center I went to which I highly recommend it's cedar. It's the colorado Um dependent and addiction recovery. I believe that's the acronym, but cedar in colorado Um, they're great. Um, they basically So to get me in there. So I I had just um, I just killed someone in a drunk driving accident and I and I basically um my lawyer and my parents were like you need to go to this place And I'm talking to them on the phone. I'm like, I am not an alcoholic Um, and they're like, that's all all right. You you may you may not be an alcoholic. That's fine You might not be but you probably have abused substances I'm like, all right. Fair enough like I can accept that and then the way they broke down was they Then once you're in there, then they're it's from every angle. They're trying to they're really they do It is focused on addiction as like kind of like the the backbone of everything But they are working on mental health and general coping skills and and everything and like Once I was kind of like, okay, I need to be here. This is something I want to learn everything I can from this place It was it was skills These are overall skills you could learn You could apply for whatever you're dealing with there were things you could um apply for your day-to-day life Regardless and then they did have people who could um diagnose other like um, they had trauma counselors they had um People who specialized in different sorts of disorders and in compulsions and things like that So if you did have like different issues that were coinciding or like coinciding with the addiction They would have people there for you so you could start working on there from on that and then move If like once you were done because generally it was a 30 to 90 day program You would graduate and then you could go out into the Out and have a counselor and everything outside of there But that's how it definitely should be. I mean you have to work on the underlying and the coping and stuff like that because it's so easy to Be strong in a facility where you don't have the outside influences. But once you're once you're out out there The possibilities are endless kind of thing You're safe when you're in in treatment Exactly Is there around other people that are at least Making the effort to try and get better or putting on a show? But they're at least, you know, they're making they look like they're trying to get better and We'll say they are they're all trying to better themselves. But then when you get out, you know, like I mean, I've run into people like I used to know and you know, and they're all still Some of them are still doing the same things they were but it's like, you know people are gonna just They don't care really, you know, a lot of people don't About your mental well-being because if you're not, you know, like the my old friends are like, I'm not mr. Party fun guy So then I want to hang around Yeah, god forbid you become a like you can still party and be like A good human being at the party just looks a little different you're talking about You get out and it's just like, you know, you go from being incarcerated to being free And there's no transition. There's no going to, you know, wherever you just get out And I got out my friend picked me up And we went to a Bucky's I don't know if you went to a Bucky's while you're here in Texas I did not know For the next trip that is that is on the list for the next trip Make it a pilgrimage. It's worth it. No, I don't know They're huge. So I went to Bucky's and I'm like I walk in It's like, I don't know about 10 in the morning And it's just people everywhere and I'm like just tripping. I just stopped and After I won was like what and I was like There's just so many people and it was you know I'd been gone for a little about four and a half years And it was just so strange to be around all those people just doing what they normally do Yeah, I'm I'm sure you're in a bubble a very regimented bubble And then it's like here's the free world. Have fun You're just like I don't what? Do your thing now Yeah, like you've done your time you've served your sentence model Yeah, six years in in prison and then the day I got out was in the middle of a pandemic I caught a plane to to colorado Like I talked to you that Yeah Yeah, I salmon at the airport right exactly it was great that day was the craziest day I had a full-on Prison beard and then going through The airport with a mask on and then flying out to colorado All like that was the most sensory overload. I've ever had in 24 hours. Yeah Yeah, it's It's crazy. It's a trip Yeah, you know and and you even talk about mental health too. It's like so I've been dealing with just a lot of like stress lately just just with life being alive, right? And you know and I can I can really emphasize with people who You know and I can I get why some people just like, you know the heck with it The hell that I'm just gonna go back to doing what I'm doing because I can't make it the set and the other And it's just the stressors. It's like You know, just life being life It's like paying bills and just taking care of everything and trying to you know Manage your time so I could spend time with everybody that I want to spend time with and still get everything done that I need to get done and I always feel like I'm behind and I can you know and it stresses me out and I can see how some people just You know, there's like the heck with that. I don't care anymore. You know, I'm just going back to prison. Well, not not Literally saying that to themselves, but like I'm gonna go back to doing. I don't care if I go or not right Yeah, and it's you know with proper mental health. They could give them the tools to actually You know know how to deal with those thoughts as they come Exactly and I think um And again, I'm just kind of these are just my opinions. Um But yeah, like you were saying it's it's familiar They know what to do What to think there versus out here There's There's a ton going on And even if you're you know, whether you've been incarcerated or not, it's incredibly stressful So I cannot imagine what it's like to go from that bubble to back out here and it's like Shit, I have bills like what what you know, or you know, just like yeah exactly like you just go from being very right It's almost I don't I don't know what the term is but I I can imagine going from super it's Going from super regimented to not You want to go back to the super regimented because it's comfortable. It's it's safe Like you know what to you know what to do there So what you're thinking is done for you there, you know, you don't have to Exactly And they don't have any they have no responsibilities other than you know going to commissary You know a few responsibilities Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I didn't have any I didn't have a job The the person I think of a lot like we we've talked ben david's been on the show and he's He's a great example of oh my god of like the Someone who could definitely benefit from mental health services inside of prisons because what happens is he has like he can he has seeking behaviors and does not like He knows exactly what to do inside prison and then knows exactly what and then gets out and then still continues it and there's no There's nothing For him, there's no benefit inside or out like there's nothing that's to for him to like change that Behavior or to or reason to change it or anything like there's there's people like malone and I And even Dave I think at certain points. I've been like, you know Trying to like try to help him and he is like he's He's got a heart of gold. He's he's the most likable person in the world and But he like there there's a part of him that is like He cannot stop using And there's that's that's the idea of addiction. You're you know the whole powerlessness against it is the You know, I mean From what I understand about it I Think I mean it's a there's there's literally a chemical situation going on inside of their heads That is telling them that I mean giving them this overwhelming urge to Have this substance over and over all you know all day on they don't have if they're not on it Well, then they all they can think about is getting it I mean, it's too powerful for for an individual to overcome. I mean, you just gotta you gotta think about it from their terms Well and coming from personal experience Even if Even if you try to get off of it, sometimes those withdrawals are so bad that you're like, you know what? I'm just gonna just stay on this shit because I I had It was it was It was a prescribed oxy That turned into an addiction because I was on it for so long and getting off of that I remember looking at my mom and going I can understand why people stay on this now because honestly I don't think I want to get off this anymore because it was it was horrible Those withdrawals were awful So and and I mean even to this day. I've been off of them for I don't think that was 20 so 12 years And I was I was in the it was I I was just determined I had seen my godfather pass away from a pill addiction from three spinal surgeries same as me So when I hit that third when I was like, nope. Nope because I I saw I was like I can't but but I also My mentality was different, I guess And so like I can sympathize with people that are stuck in active addiction because I know how freaking tough it is to get off of that stuff but then you know, even 12 years later I was in um In the hospital for a few days for a double kidney infection and they gave me oxy And I was only on it for three days and I was like three days. I should be good. I should be fine. It should Nope woke up sweating shaking My grain I was like son of a bitch And it's just like that. So I I know how like just addicted to your body. It's not even your mind It's your body your body is like, oh, we remember the stuff We like the stuff and your head's just like no, we don't no, we don't And it's it's hard That stuff starts talking to you it gets in your head It's it's it's communicating to you telling you all it's telling you is how you can get more Yeah, and like I had a surgery and they they gave me oxy and I was just like I'll just take one and I took the one in my you know, you get that little a little hit of serotonin and you're like shit I was like I literally my sister took the rest of him out of the house. I was like, I don't know where they are I don't want to see him like we're not going on this road again. Like I can't do it because it's just it's it's just like that So I can completely understand but I actually have a A question for you guys just because we are talking mental health What what was the access to it it like depending on what? But obviously I I don't know how like In depth you guys go just yet on like your stories, but I'm What was the access to mental health there? Was it just seeing like a counselor? and getting on that if you needed it or You can find shakedown merch graphic novels and other projects at waywardpress.com. That's w-a-y-w-o-r-d Press comm if you would like to support the shakedown get exclusive content and watch episodes live You can support us at patreon.com slash the shakedown like subscribe and leave a comment to give him alone that inner peace He so richly deserves