 From the SiliconANGLE Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. Welcome everybody to this CUBE conversation here in our Malboro offices. I am very excited today. I spent a number of years at IDC, which of course is owned by IDG. And there's new book out, relatively new called Future Forward. Leadership lessons from Patrick McGovern, the visionary who circled the globe and built a technology media empire. And there's a great book, a lot of stories that I didn't know, many that I didn't know. And the author of that book, Glenn Rifkin, is here to talk about not only Pat McGovern, but also some of the lessons that he put forth to help us as entrepreneurs and leaders apply to create better businesses and change the world. Glenn, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Thank you, Dave. Great to see you. So let me start with, why did you write this book? Well, a couple of reasons. The main reason was Patrick McGovern III, Pat's son came to me at the end of 2016 and said, my father had died in 2014 and I feel like his legacy deserves a book. And many people told me you were the guy to do it. So the background on that is I myself worked at IDG back in the 1980s. I was an editor at Computer World, got to know Pat during that time, did some work for him after I left Computer World on a one-on-one basis. Then I would see him over the years, interview him for the New York Times or other magazines. And every time I'd see Pat, I'd end our conversation by saying, Pat, when are we gonna do your book? And he would laugh and he would say, I'm not ready to do that yet, there's just still too much to do. And so it became sort of an inside joke for us. But I always really did wanna write this book about him because I felt he deserved a book. He was just one of these game-changing pioneers in the tech industry. He really was and of course the book was even more meaningful for me as we and I started right in the same time, 1983. And by that time IDG was almost 20 years old and it was quite a powerhouse then, but boy we saw really the ascendancy of IDG as a brand. And the book reviews on the back covers our tech elite, Benioff wrote the foreword, Mark Benioff. You had Bill Gates in there, Walter Isaacson was in there, Guy Kawasaki, Bob Metcalf, George Colony. He actually worked for a little stint at IDC for a while, John Markoff of the New York Times. So the elite of tech really sort of blessed this book and it was really a lot to do with Pat McGovern, right? Oh, absolutely. I think that the people on the inside understood how important he was to the history of the tech industry. He was not a household name, first of all. You didn't think of Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and then Pat McGovern. However, those who are in the know realized that he was as important in his own way as they were because somebody had to chronicle this story. Somebody had to share the story of the evolution of this amazing information technology and how it changed the world. And Pat was never a front of the TV camera guy. He was a guy who put his people forward, he put his products forward for sure, which is why IDG as a corporate name, most people don't know what that means, but people did know Mac world, people did know PC world, they knew IDC, they knew computer world for sure. So that was Pat's view of the world. He didn't care whether he had the spotlight on him or not. When you listen to leaders like Reed Hoffman or Eric Schmidt talk about great companies and how to build great companies, they always come back to culture. The book opens with a scene of, and we all at IDG remember this, well, we're hanging around waiting for Pat to come in and hand out what was then called the Christmas bonus, back when that wasn't politically incorrect to say. Now, of course it's the holiday bonus, but it was, it was the Christmas bonus time and Pat was coming around and he was gonna personally hand a bonus, which was a substantial bonus to every single employee at the company. I mean, and he did that really literally forever, throughout his career. It was unheard of, CEOs just didn't do that and still don't do that. If you were lucky you got a message in the lunch room from the CEO, good work troops, keep up the good work. Pat just had a really different view of the culture of this company, as you know from having been there and I know, it was very familial. There was a sense that we were all in this together and it really was important for him to let every employee know that. The idea that he went to every desk in every office for IDG around the United States, when we were there in the 80s, there were probably 5,000 employees in the U.S., he had to devote substantial amount of time, and weeks at a time to come to every building and do this, but year after year he insisted on doing it. His assistant at the time, Mary Dollher, told me she wanted to sign the cards, the Christmas cards and he insisted that he ensign every one of them personally. This was the kind of view he had of how you keep employees happy. If your employees are happy, the customers are going to be happy and you're going to make a lot of money and that's what he did. And it wasn't just that, he had this awesome holiday party that you described which was epic and during the party, they would actually take pictures of every single person at the party and then they would load the carousel, you remember the 35 millimeter carousel and then toward the end of the evening they would play that and everybody was transfixed. They wanted to see the picture of themselves. And to actually pull that off in the 1980s, it was not trivial today, it would be a piece of cake. And then there was the IDG update, the good news memos, there was a 10 year launch, the 20 year trips around the world. There were a lot of really rich benefits that in and of themselves, maybe not a huge deal, but that was the culture that he set. Yeah, there was no question that if you talk to anybody who worked in this company over say the last 50 years, you're gonna get the same kind of stories. I've been kind of amazed, I'm going around, marketing the book, talking about the book at various events and the deep affection for this guy that still holds five years after he died is just remarkable. You don't really see that with the CEO class. There's a couple, Steve Jobs left a great legacy of creativity. He was not a wonderful guy to his employees, but Pat McGovern, people love this guy and I would be signing books and somebody'd say, I've been at IDG for 27 years and I remember all of this and I've been there 33 years and there's a real longevity to this impact that he had on people. Now the book was just, it was not just sort of a biography McGovern, it was really about lessons from a leader and an entrepreneur and a media mogul who grew this great company in this culture that we can apply as business people and business leaders. I want to give you a sense of what Pat McGovern did. He really didn't take any outside capital. He did a little bit of a public offering with IDG books, but really no outside capital, completely self-funded, built a $3.8 billion empire, 300 publications, 280 million readers, I think it was almost 100 or maybe even more, 100 countries. And so you used the word remarkable. That is a remarkable achievement for a self-funded company. Yeah, Pat had a very clear vision of how, first of all, Pat had a photographic memory and if you were a manager in the company, you got a chance to sit in meetings with Pat and if you didn't know the numbers better than he did, which was a tough challenge, you were in trouble because he knew everything and so he was really a numbers focused guy and he understood that his best way to make profit was to not be looking for outside funding, not to have to share the wealth with investors, that you could do this yourself if you ran it tightly. I called it in the book a loose, tight organization. Loose meaning he was a deep believer in decentralization that every market needed its own leadership because they knew the market in Austria or in Russia or wherever better than you would know it from a headquarters in Boston, but you also needed that tightness, a firm grip on the finances. You needed to know what was going on with each of the budgets or you were going to end up in big trouble, which a lot of companies find themselves in. Well, and you know, having worked there, I mean, essentially if you made your numbers and did so ethically and he's kind of followed some of the corporate rules which we'll talk about, kind of left you alone, right? You know, you could pretty much do whatever you wanted. You could stay in any hotel. You really couldn't fly first class and we may be talking about that. But he was a complex man. I mean, he was obviously wealthy, he was a billionaire, he was very generous, but at the same time he was frugal. Yeah. You know, he drove, you know, a little up car that was, you know, unremarkable and then I had to buy him a car. He flew coach and I remember one time I was on a United flight and I was, I had upgraded, you know, using my miles and I sat down and right there was Lori McGovern and we both looked at each other and said right at the same time, I upgraded. Because Pat never flew up front. But he would always fly with a stack of newspapers in the seat next time. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, woe to, you were lucky he wasn't on the plane and spotted you as he was walking past you into coach because he was not real forgiving when he saw people, people would hide and, you know, try to avoid him at all costs. He, I mean, and he was a big man. Pat was six, three, you know, 250 pounds at least built like a linebacker. So he didn't fit into coach that well but he was, and he wasn't flying, you know, the shuttle to New York. He was flying a Beijing. He was flying a Moscow. He was going all over the world squeezing himself into these seats. Now, you know, full disclosure as he got older and had like probably 10 million air miles at his disposal he would upgrade to occasionally for those long haul flights just cause he wanted to be fresh when he would get off the plane. But yeah, these are legends about Pat that his frugality was just pure legend in the company. He owned this, you know, several versions of that dark blue suit. And that's what you would see him in. He would never deviate from that. And, but he had his patterns but he understood the impact those patterns had on his employees and on his customers. I want to get into some of the lessons because really this is what the book is all about, the heart of it. And you mentioned, you know, Juan and we'll get into some others but you really got to stay close to the customer. That was one of the 10 corporate values. And you remember, he used to go to the meetings and he'd sometimes randomly ask people to recite. What's number eight? He'd be like, you have your chief there. Just to give you a sense, this man was an entrepreneur. He started the company in 1964 with a database that he kind of pre-sold. He was kind of the sell, design, build type of mentality. He even pre-sold this thing. And he started Computer World in 1967. So it was really only a few years after he launched the company that he started Computer World. Other than Datamation, there was nothing there. Huge pent up demand for that type of publication and he caught lightning in the bottle. And that's really how he funded. No question. Computer World became the Bible of the industry. It became a cash cow for IDG. But at the time, it's so easy to look in hindsight and say, oh, well, obviously. But when Pat was doing this, one little known fact is he was an editor at a publication called Computers and Automation that was based in Newton, Massachusetts. And he kept that job even after he started IDC which was the original company in 1964. It was going to be a research company. And it was doing great. He was seeing the build up. But it wasn't until 67 when he started Computer World that he said, okay, now this is gonna be a full-time gig for me. And he left the other publication for good. But he was sort of hedging his bets there for a little while. And that's where he really gained respect for what we call the Chinese wall, the editorial versus advertising. We're gonna talk about that some more. So I mentioned 1967, Computer World. So he launched in 1964. By 1971, he was going to Japan. We're gonna talk about the China stories as well. So he named the company International Data Corp. He had a little spot in Newton mass, right? So he had a vision. You said in your book, you mentioned, how did this gentleman get it so right for so long? And that really leads to some of the leadership lessons. And one of them in the book was sort of have a mission, have a vision. And really, Pat was always talking about information, technology. In fact, when Wine for Dummies came out, it kind of created a little friction. That was really off the center. Or Wine for Dummies or Sex for Dummies. Yeah, Sex for Dummies, right? That's right, with Dr. Ruth Westheimer. But generally speaking, Glenn, he was on that mark. He really didn't deviate from that vision. Yeah, no, it was very crucial to the development of the company that he got people to buy into that mission because the mission was everything. And he understood, he had the numbers but he also saw what was happening out there from the 1960s when IBM mainframes filled a room. And only the high-priests of data centers could touch them. He had a vision for what was coming next. And he started to understand that there would be many facets to this information about information technology. It wasn't going to be boring, if anything, it was going to be the story of our age. And he was going to stick to it and sell it. You know, timing is everything, but so is, you know, Pat was a workaholic and an amazing mind. But one of the things I learned from the book, and you said this, Pat Keneally mentioned it, all American industrial and social revolutions have had a media company linked to them. Crane and automobiles, Penton and Energy, McGraw Hill and Aerospace, Annenberg, of course, and TV. And in technology, it was IDG. Yeah, he, like I said earlier, he really was a key figure in the development of this industry. And it was, you know, one of the key things about that, a lot of publications that came and went made the mistake of being platform or, you know, vertical market specific. And if that market changed, and it was inevitably going to change in high tech, you were done. He never, you know, he never married himself to some specific technology cycle. His idea was the audience was not going to change. The audience was going to have to roll with this. So the company, IDG, would produce publications that got that. You know, Computer World was actually a little bit late to the PC game, but eventually got into it. And we tracked the different cycles. You know, things in tech move in sine waves. They come and go. And Pat never was, you know, flustered by that. He could handle any kind of changes from the mainframes down to the smartphone when it came. And so that kind of flexibility and ability to adjust to markets really was unprecedented in that particular part of the market. One of the other lessons in the book, I call it nation building. And Pat shared with you that, look, and you shared actually with your readers, if you want to do it right, you've got to be on the ground. You've got to be there. And the China story is one that I didn't know about how Pat kind of talked his way into China. Give us a little summary of that story. I love that story because it's so Pat. It was 1978. Pat was in Tokyo on a business trip, one of his many business trips. And he was going to be flying to Moscow for a trade show. And he got a flight that was going to make a stopover in Beijing, which in those days was called Peking, and was not open to Americans. There were no U.S. and China diplomatic relations then. But Pat had it in mind that he was going to get off that plane in Beijing and see what he could see. So that meant that he had to leave the flight when it landed in Beijing and talk his way through the customs as they were in China at the time with folks in the, wherever, the quonset hut that served for the airport, speaking no English and him speaking no Chinese, he somehow convinced these folks to give him a day pass because he kept saying to them, I'm only in transit, it's okay. Like he wasn't coming to spy on them or anything. So here's this massive American businessman in his dark suit, and he somehow gets into downtown Beijing, which at the time was mostly bicycles, very few cars. There were camels walking down the street. They'd come with traders from Mongolia. The people were still wearing the drab outfits from the Mao era. And Pat just spent the whole day wandering around the city just soaking it in. He was that kind of a world traveler. He loved different cultures, mostly Eastern cultures. And he would pop his head into bookstores. And what he saw were people just clamoring to get their hands on anything, a newspaper, a magazine. And it just, it didn't take long for the light bulb to go on and said, this is a market we need to play in. He was fascinated with China. I, as an employee and a business P&L manager, I never understood it. I said, the per capita spending on IT in China was like a dollar. Right. And I remember my lunch within my 10 year lunch. He said, yeah, but there's going to be a huge opportunity there and I don't know how we're going to get the money out. Maybe you'll buy a bunch of tea and ship it over. I'm not worried about that. And of course, he meets Hugo Shang, which is a huge player in the book. And the home run out of China was, of course, the venture capital piece, which he started before there was even a stock market really to exit in China. Yeah. No, he was really a visionary. I mean, that word gets tossed around maybe more than it should. But Pat was a bona fide visionary. And he saw things in China that were developing that others didn't see, including, for example, his own board, who told him he was crazy. Because in 1980, he went back to China without telling them. And within days, he had a meeting with the Ministry of Technology and set up a joint venture, cost IDG $250,000. And six months later, the first issue of China computer world was being published. And within a couple of years, it was the biggest publication in China. He told me at some point that $250,000 investment turned into $85 million. But when he got home that first trip, the board was furious. They said, how can you do business with the commies? You're going to ruin our brand. And Pat said, just stick with me on this one. You're going to see. And the venture capital story was just an offshoot. He saw the opportunity in the early 90s that venture in China could, in fact, be a huge market. Why not help build it? And that's what he did. What's your take on, so IDG sold to basically Chinese investors? It's kind of bittersweet. But in the same time, it's symbolic, given Pat's love for China and the Chinese people. There's been a little bit of criticism about that. I know that the US government required IDC to spin out its supercomputer division because of concerns there. I'm always teasing Michael Dell that at the next IDG board meeting, those Lenovo numbers, they're going to look kind of low. But what are your thoughts on that in terms of people criticized China in terms of IP protections, et cetera? What would Pat have said to that, do you think? Pat made 130 trips to China in his life. We calculated at some point that just the airtime in planes would have been something like 3 and 1 half to four years of his life on planes going to China and back. I think Pat would today acknowledge, as he did then, that China has issues. You can't be that naive if he got that. But he also understood that these were people at the end of the day who were thirsty and hungry for information and that they were going to be a player in the world economy at some point and that it was crucial for IDG to be at the forefront of that, not just play later, but let's get in early, let's lead the parade. And I think that some part of him would have been OK with the sale of the company to this conglomerate there called China Oceanwide. Clearly controversial, I mean. But once Pat died, everyone knew that the company was never going to be the same with the leader who had been at the helm for 50 years. It was going to be a tough transition for whoever took over. And I think it's hard to say. Certainly there's criticism of things going on with China. China is going to be the hot topic page one of the New York Times almost every single day for a long time to come. I think Pat would have said, this was appropriate, given my love of China, that kind of return on investment he got from China, I think he would have been OK with it. Yeah, and to invoke the Ben Franklin Maxim trading partner seldom wage war. And so I think Pat would have probably looked at it that way, but huge home run. I mean, I think he was early on at Baidu and Alibaba and Tencent, an amazing story. I want to talk about decentralization, because that was always something that was just on our minds as employees of IDG. It was keep the corporate staff lean, have a flat organization. If you had 8, 10, 12 direct reports, that was OK. Pat really meant it when he said, you're the CEO of your own business. Whether that business was IDC, big company, or a manager at IDC where you might have done tens of millions of dollars. You felt like a CEO. You were encouraged to try new things. You were encouraged to fail and fail fast. The arch nemesis of IDG was Ziff Davis. They were command and control, sort of Bill Ziff. CMP, to a certain extent, was kind of the same way out of Manhasset. Totally different philosophies. And I think Pat never, ever even came close to wavering from that decentralization philosophy, did he? No, no, I mean, I think that the story that he told me that I found fascinating was he didn't have an epiphany that decentralization would be the mechanism for success. It was more that he had started traveling. And when he'd come back to his office, the memos and requests and papers to sign were stacked up two feet high. And he realized that he was holding up the company because he wasn't there to do this. And that, at some point, he couldn't do it all. It was going to be too big for that. And that's when the light came on and said, this decentralization concept really makes sense for us. If we're going to be an international company which clearly was his mission from the beginning, we have to say the people on the ground in those markets are the people who are going to make the decisions because we can't make them from Boston. And I talked to many people who did a trip to Europe, met the folks in London, met the folks in Munich. And they said to a person, it was so ahead of its time. Today it just seems obvious. But in the 1960s, early 70s, it was really not a regular leadership tenant in most companies. The command and control that you talked about was the way that you did business. And they both worked, but from a cultural standpoint, clearly IDG and IDC have had staying power. And he had the three-quarter rule. You talked about it in your book. If you missed your numbers, three quarters in a row, you were in trouble. One quarter, hey, let's talk. Two quarters, we maybe make some changes. Three quarters, you're gone. And so, as I said, if you were making your numbers, you had wide latitude. One of the things you didn't have latitude on was, I'll call it pay to play. Crossing that line between editorial and advertising. And Pat, I remember I was at a meeting one time, I'm sorry to tell you these stories, but we were at an off-site meeting in a Woods meeting and they give you exercise. Go off and tell us what the customer wants. Bill LaBaris, who was the editor-in-chief of a computer all the time said, who's the customer? And Pat said, that's a great question. To the publisher, it's the advertiser. To you, Bill, and the editorial staff, it's the reader. And both are equally important. And Pat would never allow the editorial to be compromised by the advertiser. Yeah, no, there was a clear barrier between church and state in that company. And he consistently backed editorial on that issue. Because keep in mind, when we started then, and I was a journalist hoping to change the world, the trade press then was considered a little below the mainstream business press. The trade press had a reputation for being a little too cozy with the advertisers. And Pat said early on, we can't do that. Because everything we have, our product, the brand is built on integrity. And if the reader doesn't believe that what we're reporting is actually true and factual and unbiased, we're gonna lose the advertisers in the long run anyway. So he was clear that that had to be the case. And time and again, there would be conflict that would come up. It was just, as you just described it, the publishers, the sales guys, they wanted to bring in money. And if it, occasionally, hey, we could nudge the editor of this particular publication, take it a little bit easier on this vendor because they're gonna advertise big with us. Pat just would always back the editor and say, that's not gonna happen. And it caused friction for sure. But he was unwavering in his support. Well, it was interesting because Macworld, I think, is an interesting case study because there were sort of some backroom dealings in Pat Maneuver to be able to get the Macworld brand license for that. But it caused friction between Steve Jobs and the writers of Macworld. They would write something that Steve Jobs, who was a control freak, couldn't control. And he regretted giving that license. Yeah, he once said that was the worst decision he ever made, was to give the license to Pat. Macworld was published on the day that Mac was introduced in 1984. That was the deal that they had. And it was, what Jobs forgot was how important it was to the development of that product to have a whole magazine devoted to it on day one and a really good magazine that a lot of people still lament the glory days of Macworld. But yeah, he and Steve Jobs did not get along. And I think that almost says a lot more about Jobs because Pat pretty much got along with everybody. That church and state dynamic seems to be changing across the industry. I mean, the tech journalism, there aren't any more tech journalists in the United States. I mean, I'm overstating that, but far fewer than there were when we were at IDG, you're seeing all kinds of publications and media companies struggling. Kara Swisher, who's the greatest journalist in Walt Mossberg in the tech industry, tried to make it on their own and couldn't. So those lines are somewhat blurring, not that Kara Swisher is blurring those lines. She's, I think, very, very solid in that regard. But it seems like the business model is changing. As an observer of the markets, what do you think's happening in the publishing world? Well, as a journalist, I'm sort of aghast at what's going on these days. A lot of my, I've been around a long time and seeing former colleagues who are no longer in journalism because the jobs just started drying up is, it's a scary prospect. Unlike being the enemy of the people, the First Amendment is pretty important to the future of the democracy. So to see these cutbacks and newspapers going out of business is difficult. At the same time, the internet was inevitable and it was going to change that dynamic dramatically. So how does that play out? Well, the problem is anybody can post anything they want on social media and call it news. And the challenge is to maintain some level of integrity in the kind of reporting that you do. And it's more important now than ever. And so I think that somebody like Pat would be an important figure if he was still around in trying to keep that going. Well, Facebook and Google have cut the heart out of a lot of the business models of many media companies. And you're seeing sort of a pendulum swing back to nonprofits, which I understand, and speaking to folks that back in the mid to early 1900s, nonprofits were the way in which journalism got funded. Maybe it's billionaires buying things like the Washington Post that helped fund it, but clearly the model's shifting and it's somewhat unclear what's happening there. I wanted to talk to you about another lesson, which Pat was the head cheerleader. So I remember, just after we started, the computer world's 20th anniversary, and they hired the marching band and they walked, Pat and Mary Dollarher walked from Five Spin Street, IDG headquarters. They walked to Computer World, which was up, I guess, old constituent path or maybe it was actually on Route 30 at the time. And Pat was dressed up as the drum major and Mary as well. He would do crazy things like that. He'd jump out of a plane with IDG as number one again. He'd post a flag in Antarctica. IDG's number one again. It was just, it was an amazing dynamic that he had always cheering people on. Yeah, he was what he called himself the CEO of the Chief Encouragement Officer. You mentioned earlier the good news notes. Everyone who worked there at some point received this eight by 10 piece of paper with a rainbow logo on it and it said, good news. And there was a personal note from Pat McGovern out of the blue, totally unexpected to thank you and congratulate you on some bit of work, whatever it was, if you were a reporter, some article you wrote, if you were a sales guy, a sale that you made. And people all over the world would get these from him and put them up in their cubicles because it was like a badge of honor to have them. People still have them in a folder somewhere. And he was just unrelenting in supporting the people who worked there. And it was, the impact of that is something you can't put a price tag on. It just, it stays with people for all their lives. People who have left there and gone on to four or five different jobs always think fondly back to the days at IDG and knowing that the CEO had your back in that manner. The legend of the legacy of Patrick J. McGovern is not just in IDG and IDC, which he was interested in your book. I mean, you weren't at IDC, I was. And I was started when I saw the sort of downturn. And then now it's a very, very successful company, whatever, $300, $400 million, throwing off a lot of profits. Just to decide, I worked for every single CEO at IDC with the exception of Pat McGovern. And now, Kirk Campbell, the current CEO is moving on. Crawford Del Pratt's moving into the role of president just a matter of time before he gets CEO. So I will, and I hired Crawford. So you did. So I have worked for and or hired every CEO of IDC except for Pat McGovern. So, but the legacy goes beyond IDG and IDC, great brands. The McGovern Brain Institute, 350 million, is that right? That's right. He dedicated to studying the human brain. He and Laurie were very much involved. Typical of Pat, he wasn't just he hears the check and disappear, he was going in, hey, I have some ideas, and talk about that a little bit. Yeah, well, this was a guy who spent his whole life fascinated by the human brain. And the impact technology would have on the human brain. So when he had enough money, he and Laurie in 2000 gave a $350 million gift to MIT to create the McGovern Institute for Brain Research. At the time, the largest academic gift ever given to any university. And as you said, Pat wasn't a guy who was gonna write a check and leave and wave goodbye. Pat was involved from day one. He and Laurie would come and sit in day long seminars talking, listening to researchers talk about the most esoteric research going on. And he would take notes and he was, he wasn't a brain scientist, but he wanted to know more. And he would talk to researchers. He would send good news notes to them just like he did with IDG. And it had the same impact. People said, this guy is a serious supporter here. He's not just showing up with a checkbook. Bob DeSimon, who's the director of the Brain Institute just marveled at this guy's energy level that he would come in and for days just sit there and listen and take it all in. And it just, it was an indicator of what kind of person he was, this insatiable curiosity to learn more and more about the world. And he wanted his legacy to be this intersection of technology and brain research. He felt that this institute could cure all sorts of brain related diseases, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, et cetera, and it would then just make a better future for mankind than as corny as that might sound. That was really the motivator for Pat McGovern. Well, it's funny you mentioned the word corny because a lot of people saw Pat as somewhat corny, but as you got to know him, you're like, wow, he really means this. He loves his company. The company was his extended family. When Pat met his untimely demise, we held a crowd chat, crowdchat.net slash thanks Pat. And there's a voting mechanism in there. And the number one vote was from Paul Gillan, who posted Leo DeRosha said that nice guys finish last, Pat McGovern proved that wrong. And I think that's very true. And again, awesome legacy. What number book is this for you? You've written a lot of books. This is number 13. 13. Congratulations, lucky 13. Thank you. The book is Fast Forward by Glenn Rifkin. I'm sorry, Future Forward. Future Forward by Glenn Rifkin. Check out, there's a link in the YouTube down below. Check that out. And there's some additional information there. Glenn, congratulations on getting the book done. And thanks so much for coming around here. Thank you for having me. This is great. Really enjoyed it. It's always good to chat with another former IDG or who gets it. I've got back a lot of memories. So again, thanks for writing the book. All right, thanks for watching, everybody. We'll see you next time. This is Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE.