 A man revered by Muslims and non-Muslims all across the world. For the Muslims, he is the cousin, the son-in-law, and the successor of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and his family. For non-Muslims, he is loved because of how much of a justice, just ruler he was. That man was Ali ibn Abi Talib, a.s. Examples of non-Muslims that have mentioned Ali ibn Abi Talib as the topic of political discussion. For when you look at the United Nations and the likes of Kofi Anan, who announces that the letter Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib, peace be upon him, writes to Malik Al-Ashtar, of government is the best letter of government ever written by a human being. When we look at Gandhi, for example, and when he says that I do not allow anyone to enter my cabinet, had they not read the letter of Ali ibn Abi Talib to Malik Al-Ashtar, and had they not fully understood it, because that letter highlights what equality is. Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib, who on the day of Khaybar, lifted the gate by himself, who on the day of Hudaybiyyah was announced as the soul of Rasulullah, sallallahu alayhi wa alayhi. But moving, drifting away from the merits of Ali ibn Abi Talib, and looking after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and his family, when we look at how he was oppressed and how he dealt with the situation that he was in. When Sayyid al-Fatima alayhi s-salam and Sayyid Muhsin were killed in front of him, how he coped, how that affected him psychologically. This is the third of three parts, and in this segment we have brother Bilal Ali Hughes, who is with us today to discuss the psychological effects that losing a spouse can have on someone. Brother Salam alaykum, how are you doing? Thank you for having me. Thank you very much. Brother, of course the main question on everyone's mind is that how does it feel to lose a spouse? Have you come across anyone who has lost a spouse and maybe who's lost a spouse, for example, to murder, and how they coped with it? I have in my travels come across many people have dealt with different types of loss. A spouse, a wife, a husband, or vice versa, that loss is immense. Losing a best friend, losing like, wouldn't they, you know, we use the term colloquially in English, your other half. It's, for some, irreparable. For some, absolutely irreparable. So, you know, one can only imagine if they haven't walked in those shoes, but we use our empathy as human beings to try and understand, to try and comprehend what that could be like by processing the things that we, the losses that we have had in our own lives and how it affected us. So, you talked about it being irreplaceable, the losing someone who's so dear to you, you know, who you spent pretty much most of your life with, who you've had your kids with. How would you say that they could come across, they could actually overcome the challenge of losing a spouse? You know, are there any emotional coping mechanisms that you would suggest? There are, there are, there are a number. The first thing I would say that would be beneficial for people to remember, you know, people in situations are similar, people that have lost a family member or a spouse, is that for the best part, most people are not suffering alone. Because you're part of a configuration of people, you're part of a family. So, it's important that family, that things like this pull family together and people become closer as opposed to allowing the stress and the distress to cause people to fracture, to cause fractures in the family. Because one of the most common things when we lose people, or when we lose in general in life, losses of a job, losses of an opportunity, losses of a friendship is one of the first things that the human being reacts with his anger. That's quite often that we react. And that is essentially just a defense mechanism. That's just us trying to protect ourselves in a kind of psychological way. It's pretty natural for that to happen. So you remember that you are not alone, if you're not alone, to share your thoughts and feelings, at least confide with somebody that you trust. So how would you say that some people, in fact most people who have lost their spouse, who have been through a loss such as this one, they would be scared to talk to people. They feel like it's hard to trust someone. They wouldn't know who to talk to and who to turn to. So what kind of advice would you give to that person if they were watching this right now? And what kind of advice would you give them on how to learn to trust someone and learn to be able to open up? I guess it's about trusting themself. What people are afraid of a lot of the time is that by talking about it, by suppressing this, it's as if it didn't happen, or worrying that the floodgates will open up. If I start to talk about it, maybe I'll break down, I won't be able to cope, and I'm going to fall apart, and I can't allow people to see me fall apart. Things like this will be particularly difficult, I'm sorry to say, but for men, because we're taught from such a young age, the boy falls over, he's told, don't cry, get up, come on, be tough, be strong, the girl falls over, we comfort the girl. So that goes across many cultures, western, eastern, different cultures. So sometimes with masculinity, there comes this type of force invincibility. So we need to be as human beings, not just as men or as women, but just as human beings, be able to own our vulnerability. Because then once we can own our vulnerability, we can take a real look at what our deficit is. That's the only way that we can go around and work towards repairing it. So we find trust in somebody that we know on a personal level, and we trust ourselves that we can share and gain support. It doesn't make us a weak individual to need support. It means we're strong because we can recognise our shortcomings. And also if we're dealing with professionals, counsellors, psychologists, psychotherapists, there are strict codes of conduct in regards to confidentiality that they have to adhere to. So they're not likely to, because you know the fantasy in people's minds is if I tell a professional, this could end up anywhere, but no, they are strong, as I said, codes of ethics in regard to confidentiality. So they can feel assured in that if they're not familiar with talking therapy and things like that. That will be kept private. Now moving on from the effects of losing a spouse and moving on to, for example, in the case of say the Fatimid al-Zahra al-Hassan, and Imam Ali al-Hassan, when we look at their children, Imam Hassan al-Hassan al-Hassan, say the Zayn al-Bom Kulthum, how is it for a child losing their mother? As the Prophet, when the man came and asked him, who is better my mother or my father, he said your mother, your mother, your mother than your father. Now how is it that a child of such young age, Imam Hassan was seven years of age, Imam Hassan was six, how is it that they can cope with losing their mother? It's interesting because they talk about children having the ability to adapt better than adults because they're not fully psychologically the end product of what they are going to be. So in some respects, some would argue that it's easier for children, but I would say when it comes to a mother and from dialogue I've had with people who have lost their mom in childhood, never, never, ever, ever do you get over it as much as you learn to cope. So there is always that space and that void, but depending on what you're able to, if you're able to fill that space with something that's healthy, that's something that's productive, that's nurturing, then that can be productive. But unfortunately for many it becomes trying to cope with harmful methods like substance misuse and alcohol, things of this nature. So it can be really tough for children and as I said, we can only use our imagination to try and grasp what a loss of that nature would be like for a child. You mentioned that it's easier for a child to overcome this, for example, the loss of a mother, but when we look at, for example, in the long term, when that child grows up, how would that affect them seeing, for example, their friends that have their mothers around and how does that sort of gap in their life, how can they feel that? So that's when we look at what they call significant caregivers. So if the biological mother has passed, you would hope that with the extended family or if father remarries and the type of relationship that child would have with their stepmother, it could never be the same, but it could be a healthy alternative to that mother. But I remember, I think I mentioned, we discussed this earlier on, that I spoke with a said and he said that for all the places that he's been, for all the people he knows and all the things he's done and that's been available to him, the real comfort he receives is when he goes to the grave of his mum and that nothing gives him that same feeling. As you said, we quoted a prophet about who should I serve and who should I love and adhere to if I want to attain gender and he said the mother three times and then the father, we get a little insight. When you speak to people like this, you kind of get an emotional insight. Exactly, exactly. I know this is pushing it on a little bit, but for example, someone whose mother, for example, is buried abroad where they're not with them, where they can't visit them frequently. What kind of advice would you give to someone who's watching this, who's, for example, who lives here, but their mother's buried in, for example, in Iraq or Iran or those parts of Asia or all around the world? That is an interesting question, interesting dilemma in some respects because obviously people, most cases, would like to physically visit that place because it's a connection, it's a kind of connection point and a spiritual level with that person. I think that people having their own, what we would call methods of self-care, whatever it is, that's Halal that helps you to feel better, is something that is worthy to employ, to understand that self-awareness becomes important. You know, so people have different methods, they may say, okay, my mother is not in this country, buried in this country, for example, but my aunt is here and because she, they were so close or there's that kind of connection with this particular relative, I usually visit around the time of, you know, the memorial of my mom's passing and we kind of, we talk or we go for dinner, we do something together. Or, you know, there isn't, if that person isn't there, people may say, okay, well, what I usually do is I read a particular passage from the Quran or a particular du'a, you know, and I, you know, say a few words of my own du'a and my own supplication and then just speak with Allah and that gives me some kind of spiritual relief or some kind of respite. So, you know, it's what a person is aware of that they are comfortable with but it's good to go through some type of action, some type of Halal process that helps, helps the way the person feels. Just a very example when they say, that's in regular psychology, you know, people who are depressed and they stay in their house, just having a bath and putting on new clothes can shift their mood. If they were scoring a three out of ten, it could move them to a four or a five just by a physical action and, you know, going through these particular motions can change the way that we think, the way that we, once we change the way that we think, we change the way that we feel. So, when you talk about physical actions, someone who's lost their spouse or their mom, do you, do you think that those physical actions can help them, you know, forget about the situation, forget about the loss of their mother or do you feel like that it's still, it's still going to, you know, hurt them for a very, very long time? I don't think it's about forgetting as much as it's about coping and dealing with. Forgetting is an extremely difficult thing to do because if I tell somebody to forget about a red bus, all they can imagine is a red bus. So, you know, when you try to forget things, it doesn't, the brain, the mind doesn't, doesn't actually work like that, but also it's more about dealing with the hurt, processing the hurt as opposed to avoiding it because we're human beings and we have certain like, there's a certain psychological, a certain emotional makeup to the human being and Allah has put that in us for a particular reason and when put in certain situations or face with certain life situations, we experience those things, we experience those emotions and the, I would say, I would argue that the realistic goal isn't to deny them or to suppress them or to pretend they don't exist or to try and speed past them but to be aware of them and how they influence our thoughts and actions as opposed to just trying to rid ourselves of them. So, it's very much about a process and about coming to terms with what's taking place. And do you believe that, you know, someone who's lost their mother or spouse to different kinds of, you know, different kinds of causes of death? So, for example, if someone lost their mother or spouse towards murder as opposed to someone who's lost it to natural causes, do you think that those have different effects on the human being? Do you think they give the person different levels of emotions or do you think it's all the same? I genuinely believe that the loss is a loss but then when it's coupled with, you could say, a more controversial type of loss then that can magnify the pain and the difficulty of coming to terms with that. Somebody who's lost a person because of natural causes, medical condition, accident is going to be different to somebody who their family member, their loved one was a victim of, say for example, torture and then murder. They were imprisoned illegally or, you know, something of this nature. The more horrific the death is, the more painful it's going to be, naturally, the more painful for those that are left behind to mourn their loss. Thank you so much for this insightful discussion, Brother Bilal. Let's look at the session that Brother Bilal had with an anonymous guest who had been a victim of losing their spouse. Peace be upon you, brother. Peace be upon you too. I'd like to welcome you to this one-to-one segment, one-to-one session and before we go into any details, really, just acknowledge the sensitivity of the topic and your courage for really sharing your story. A bogeyman, I appreciate it. If we could start off with the first talking point. My question is regarding the murder of your wife and how you came to terms with the actual loss. I mean, it was a total shock. That morning she was there in front of me. We were having breakfast and by the evening she was gone. I had no idea what I had taken her for granted and how she was gone. The worst thing is that I wasn't there. I wish I could have been with her just to protect her, save her. I wish at least I could have been there to speed it for her final moments. I hate the thought of her being in pain or scared. The injustice eats me away. It kills me inside. I want to lock myself away. I want nothing to do with the world anymore. But I've got children. I had to stay strong for them. I thank God for them, that they are like reminders and pieces of her. But I'll never forget the moment they realised that their mum, she wasn't coming home. You mentioned that you wished that you were there for a final moments and that made me think, was there something you would have said to her in her final moments had you been there? If I was there, I would have asked for forgiveness. If I knew she was going to go, I mean, sometimes that's where it takes an extreme situation to bring out your real emotions, how you really feel about someone or something. I just wish I could have stopped it from happening. And if I couldn't, at least she wouldn't have been alone. She wouldn't have died by herself. Imagine she was attacked and murdered. All she was going through. If I couldn't have stopped it, at least I would have been there to give her some sort of comfort, some sort of solace. Maybe say I'll find a good-byes or something like that. But it wasn't to be. One of the emotions that people often feel when they lose somebody close is anger. And I wonder if you've had to deal with anger, if you've had to wrestle with anger. Has that been a feature in your process? Indeed. It's like, think about it, sometimes I feel I've been victimised. Why me? My wife didn't deserve to die. She didn't deserve to be murdered. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And nothing can change what's happened. And nothing can bring her back. And yet anger has brewed at the situation. Sure. Me trying to accept that this is not going to change. And there's nothing that I can do about it. It's just something I have to take on the chin. I have to bully it. I just, I don't even, it's really difficult, even common to terms with why was she the victim that night? Why did the killer choose her? So anger, I'm angry at a lot of things. I'm also regretful for a lot of things. Because she's not here anymore. And there's so much I still want to say to her. That's very powerful, very, very powerful. What would you say? How much I miss her. How much I wish I had fulfilled certain things and ambitions that we had. Certain places we wanted to visit. Certain, you know, projects we wanted to do. Decorating, painting, couples retreats. Visiting new exotic places, islands. All beauty. And I just wish I could tell her that I wish she was here to help me on my development of becoming a better human being. And she's not going to be able to witness that. And I don't have that mentor anymore. But you being a father, you are a role model also. So it sounds as if you haven't had the option of not being strong. That you had to be strong for your children. I had to be because I've lost my wife, but they've lost their mother. And they're looking up to that and they're thinking Daddy's going to take care of us. They don't matter that Daddy's heart's broken. They don't matter that Daddy's going through depression. Daddy's lonely. Daddy misses his wife. Because right now, their kids, they don't understand the complexities of human emotions at a mutual level. And their life and their minds are a lot more simple. It's my duty to nurture and take care of this situation which has become a very critical point in their lives. So that they perceive the correct guidance, the correct emotional support and understanding and counseling for them to grow up without a mother, to grow up with this tragedy and being able to digest and accept the events and to move forward to become beautiful human beings. I can feel a sense of pride in myself rising when I heard you say as a father having to wrestle with depression because it's a word that often times people, particularly men, can be afraid of. And it's only when we really own our vulnerabilities that we can then repair any damage that has taken place. So I just wanted to acknowledge that. I wanted to acknowledge that. I wanted to move on to hoping that we can maybe find out how things were as we moved on from the first stage of the loss to now dealing with the injustice aspect, the legal system and seeing her killers in court. It was very difficult, but I don't have to think about it that much. I try to block it on my mind sometimes. I mean, I'm searching for justice, but I've got to look at the men. You saw them? I saw them, yeah, in the courtroom. Now I have to look at these people in the eyes, in the faces. They don't know who I am because I didn't identify myself in the courtroom. But I know who they were and what they've done. And these people are very, very intimidating. Now I can't imagine what my wife had to go for. I mean, she's little and fragile, petite. And then I'm there staring at the people who have taken my wife away, who have destroyed my life, who have made my children motherless. I hate every minute of being in that courtroom. I'm not going to sit here and lie and say that I've forgiven this person or that person for what he has done. I didn't know when I'll ever get near that stage of actually being able to accept and forgive, and that stage of moving on. It just makes me realize how different I am from the Ahlul Bayt and how the Ahlul Bayt were. Not only could they face the people who hurt and oppressed him, they were just willing to be merciful. That takes great courage, great strength, great acceptance and understanding of the dynamics of this world and human nature. Imam Hussein, as I said, he could have turned the whole away. After all, he and his children were thirsty because of him, yet the Imam didn't. Imam Hussein, he was even willing to forgive Shimon if he didn't kill the Imam. Subhanallah. He was willing to forgive his own killer. I can't even look at the killers of my wife in the eyes. If anything, I just feel sorry for the guy who murdered my wife. I mean, how hard can your heart be? How dark and how evil or harder than my English, but how messed up do you have to be to take a life like that? One can only truly, unless they've walked in your shoes, only imagine what you have been through and what you are still going through. You mentioned something which was so important. I wanted to just expand on it just a little bit when you mentioned about forgiveness. The forgiveness that was exemplified, then demonstrated by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his family members in different situations. There is so much evidence now coming to the fore about how forgiveness is a healer for us, the victim, for those who are victims. Because the body remembers, as they say, and so many toxins and cancers and so many diseases are actually, you know, this ease is created in our nervous system in our bodies based on holding onto grudges and grievances and anger and malice. But being realistic as fallible human beings, it's got to be done, I guess, in our own time. And it's not something that an expert or a well-wisher can instruct you to come to a place of forgiveness. It's something that you have to wrestle with yourself in your own time, in your own way, in your own space. I wonder if you could say a bit more about your, I guess, because you have this experience now. And if you could maybe tie that into your knowledge of history or how it could have been, in some respects, for our first Imam when his wife was a victim of violence and what transpired as a result of that in terms of the losses that, you know, eventually came about. Because it was acts of violence. I mean, when I was told to read about Imam Ali, I said, in the aftermath, in the aftermath, in the aftermath of Zohar Ali, I said, I saw the Imam in a completely new light. And I had been used to this warrior, this man of prestige, honor, and presence. And I was used to the hardened Ali Amir with Ali on the battlefield. I had overlooked his affection towards his wife, his relationship with his sons and his daughters. He adored his wife. She was his light. And that is exactly how it was with me and my wife. She was my everything. She was your light. She was your light. She was that. She was your light. She was my sunshine. The thing I look up to. I think that is just a perfect place to end our conversation. And thank you so much for sharing and joining me in this one. Welcome back. Thank you very much for staying with us. Brother Bilal, you know, looking at that video and, you know, you having that personal discussion with that anonymous person. You know, how must have that person felt? You know, it's very tragic to lose a spouse, and especially to murder. Do you come across this sort of stuff often? I wouldn't say often in terms of family members who are victims of murder, but I have. And I think we mentioned it earlier on that the loss is a big thing, period. But then when it's coupled with violence and controversy, that can make it all the more difficult to process. So on one level we could, you know, only imagine the type of impact that situation. You know, the historical situation would have had on Imam Ali, alaihi salam, and his children. But we're somewhat comforted by his knowledge, his impeccable knowledge, his impeccable wisdom and implementation of Islam that somebody of his character would have been able to handle it much, you know, much more effectively than us as lay people, you know. And you know, going towards the video, the brother mentions that he talks about how he lost his spouse to murder and how he saw the killer's perpetrators in the courtroom. And when he goes on to link it to Imam Hussein and Imam Ali, alaihi salam, where he says that he saw the killers, Imam Ali saw the killers. You know, Imam Hussein, al-Kalbala, he knew the cause, the people who caused this. And then he just remembers them and then he just, you know, stands back. And he looks at how they forgave, how Imam Hussein forgave, how Imam Ali forgave some of the killers of, you know, he didn't hold any grudges against them. I think that requires a great level of Iman and Yaqeen, don't you think? No, no doubt, no doubt. But also bringing it up to today, because I guess we have to make those historical events relevant to our here and our now, all we have to do is reflect on the magnitude of that loss and then we think, okay, what about the brother that has said something unkind about us or we had a disagreement with a particular sister or a particular family member or a particular friend. So I'm not talking to that person anymore because they said I'm a so-and-so or she thinks she's cute or he said this or he's into that. And that's a smaller ask, isn't it, to forgive and to move on and to move past that. So maybe we could take some kind of, some type of lesson as a plan of action to go forward. The forgiveness is healthy. Yeah, I just feel like Imam Ali A.S. was, you know, his patience at that moment was impeccable. And you know, when people say, why didn't Imam Ali A.S. do anything? Well, he did it for the sake of the religion of Islam, which is a very, very beautiful thing. But thank you very much brother Bilal for that insightful discussion. It's been a pleasure brother, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much, we appreciate it. Thank you very much for joining us. We hope to see you next time. Until then, salam aleikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.