 and we're on hello everybody today is going to be very interesting when we put out the call the to ask people what they wanted to hear about in these Facebook lives we got so many responses asking to talk about trauma and PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder so I can only assume what we can only assume that it is because of the current situation that it is right now it's not trauma hasn't existed before obviously but there's a lot of stress and possibly trauma happening in the communities across the world right now with a COVID situation and I imagine it's because of the fear that that is generating that there's so much interest in trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder however I have to say a qualifier there is that in the last three to four years I have noticed a little bit of a fashion being formed in the mental health sphere in which people some people almost would would want in it's not a very good word but they seem to seek out this idea that they're possibly their personal problems is because they have experienced trauma it's not because they and it maybe they can't do anything about it it's completely wrong to think that way it is not beneficial it's not a building but we will talk a little bit more about all these things as we go now what I would like to do myself and Amy by the way my name is Peter Diaz if you haven't met me before I'm the CEO of the workplace mental health Institute and my colleague Amy Golding she's the director of psychology for the Institute and I have a question for you and is there anyone out there right now that is in lockdown or quarantine and if so what is it like I mean what level is it at of course the lockdown the quarantine is quarantine so if you can put that in the comments as we talk that would be fantastic and this there's something else I wanted to ask you is is this something in particular around trauma PTSD grief and loss that you want us to talk about today or something that you want to know a question that you've had wanted to ask that you don't have an answer to so any of that stuff remember your lockdown quarantine or is it something that you want to know today we'd love to have those comments and deal with them as they come in so welcome very nice to see you so let's get ready let's jump straight into it and we're going to do an overview of trauma and PTSD and who else who better to do that than our in-house psychologist Amy Golding thank you so starting off with a little bit of a definition around trauma and what we're actually talking about because as as Peter said this word has been used like a lot of mental health terms it's being used a lot these days in a broad range of scenarios so if we go back to the basics trauma is actually Greek for wound so it was originally referring to the actual physical injury that people experience but now of course we refer to it in the sense of emotional trauma as well so it's been described as a deeply distressing or disturbing experience that's sort of one definition but that sort of suggests that the event itself is the trauma and you know we've moved a little bit beyond that now to actually referring to it as the psychological or emotional response to that distressing or disturbing experience so that's kind of interesting because it says the existence of that event itself is not the trauma it's how we react to it and how we respond which is a little bit different we've also got the definition that it's feeling out of control so going through a frightening experience that disconnects us from our sense of safety so this sort of tax into the idea that when our safety is threatened either physical safety or our sense of self and who we are as a person and when we go through an experience that we feel like we may not even survive it that's kind of one of the criteria for some to have experienced a traumatic situation so we've kind of got this idea that you could say trauma is in the eye of the beholder you know so what one person experiences as traumatic may be different to someone else and we see that you know the common example is two people in a car accident for one person their life flashed before their eyes and hey they really had that deep fear that something was very very bad was going to happen whereas for someone else might be in exactly the same car but for them it was just a minor praying we've had insurance everybody was okay they're less likely to perceive that as a traumatic experience and less likely to have a trauma response to it so we've got to be really really careful not to assume when it comes to trauma and so for that reason we talk about the language we use is potentially traumatic events so when we're talking about things like accidents and assaults natural disasters and it can also be ongoing experiences that people have like bullying for example so while some people may find that very difficult other people might you know for a natural disaster for example other people might not go on to develop any sort of mental health issue in response to that in fact the research is showing that most of us will at some point in our life go through some kind of potentially traumatic experience up to 75 percent of people but only five to ten percent of those will actually go on to have a traumatic response so that's that's very encouraging and of course even those people who have a traumatic response the majority recover within the first 12 months and others after that too so some very important points there you know nobody no one experiences trauma in the same way but the truth is a trauma as such it's only impacting a minimal percentage of the population and that's why we need to be very careful when something happens that we don't use the language like oh my god that that must have been so traumatic because it doesn't have to in 95 percent of cases or more people do not experience trauma now it wasn't fun it was still a negative event they may have been scared they may have had negative emotions they may have cried but it didn't linger on as a traumatic event or a traumatic response in their lives and of course that's relevant for COVID this year sure there are a lot of people in different type of COVID I mean thank you Matt for that response he said in Sydney you are in you have had a pretty good compared to other parts of the world and I hope it continues like that for you guys that that would be really nice and even even in places where the lockdown has been severe like Madrid not everyone has experienced it the the same way sometimes because of the environment was different I mean if you have a family of seven in a small apartment that is 60 square meters and that is the reality for a lot of people in big cities like Madrid or Barcelona that is a very different experience to a family of four in a independent home with four or five bedrooms and a yard where they can go outside so sometimes the physical environment makes a distinction sometimes the internal environment makes a distinction so how is the lockdown being experienced so it is important that we don't judge people through our own lens but that we try to understand the person's experience through their eyes their history their situation and it is not a sign of weakness I think it's I like to call it more a sign of processing sometimes people are trying to process the new information that is coming into their lives the new sense of threat that is coming into their life they're trying to process the fear response and how to work that through in their lives trauma can stay with you for a long time but it can also stay with you for a very short time and if you do if you take certain steps and allow that process of transformation to take place I'm not going to say that it's a fantastic process but it is a natural process it is a natural process accepting trauma is exacerbated it's it's magnified and the person can get caught in it so I'm so glad that so many people are learning about trauma so we can all help with our language and with their attitude we don't want to be positive but we will show you what to do yeah we don't want to be negative by that so how can we show up for people so definitely in a traumatic potentially traumatic event an incident where trauma for some people could develop they do feel a sense of threat they also feel that their identity is shaken and possibly they feel that they don't matter and this is one of the my pet peeves at the moment with some of the language around COVID is where some workers have been deemed non-essential I think that's a terrible title don't you you're a non-essential worker I mean we know what they're trying to get at we need people to run around even in a in a in a tight lockdown and we need other people that can stay at home and they should stay home to protect other people so but just just be aware that a sense of identity is being challenged and of course even more if you are told to stay home and don't work and possibly like has happened for millions of people that you've lost a job now you become unemployed that's that's severely an identity shift so the more severe the identity shift in that traumatic potentially traumatic situation the more difficult it's going to be for that person to shift their identity quickly the faster the shift the identity the faster the trauma could potentially be over but identity is is tight is is very very tied to to what's going on now there's also distressing and disturbing situations that could cause trauma like conflict and we have seen we are experiencing some of the conflict aren't we some of us believe we shouldn't wear masks some of us believe we should wear masks and there's a lot of there's a lot of opinions and fights and sometimes we even forget that we are friends you know we are friends and we act as if we were enemies we're not enemies we're still friends but we can have different opinions but it doesn't look like it right so we've got to be very careful that as we are entering conflict we keep reassuring people that it's okay to have different opinions that we still love each other and it is putting on the relationships under pressure no end and the other one that can cause the the that adds to the potentiality of a trauma of a traumatic event becoming traumatic for the person is whether the person has got some kind of control as to in their life right i may not be able to control what's happened to my car in the accident but i was in control of of of something else i don't know i had everything like yeah i had the seat belt i was wearing the seat belt i had bought a car that had airbags so i had some kind of control and also i had the speed dial on my phone and i could call the ambulance very quickly if somebody was injured so i could be somewhat in control and if i feel in control that helps my chances of moving faster through the trauma process if there is going to be one right absolutely critical so i remember all of these responses are completely okay so one of the another principle in psychology when it comes to trauma is that you know just as the body does what it needs to do to heal itself you know if we cut our skin you know the skin will repair itself put a bandaid on and let it heal we believe that mentally the mind sort of does what it needs to do as well so if we look at the three main symptoms for post-traumatic stress disorder you see the first one being that sort of being hyper vigilant they call it so being extra alert and jumpy and on edge and that sort of makes sense right if you've been through a difficult situation or there was a danger you want to be extra alert for future dangers so you can respond effectively and appropriately so that makes sense the second symptom is emotional numbness so a lot of people describe well you know i just don't feel connected to life there's something i just feel kind of numb i'm not feeling bad but i'm not feeling the joys of life either i'm sort of just existing and and not living so again that can protect us from future hurt if i get too emotionally invested in something i might get emotionally hurt so better and it's not that it's a conscious process but unconsciously that seems to be what the mind does to cope and then the third main symptom of PTSD is re-experiencing the event so that might be having flashbacks or nightmares and it's similar to hyper vigilance that can be the mind just sort of processing what it needs to i know i've definitely spoken with a lot of people who said they've had some really interesting dreams in the last few months as well again we we don't fully understand how the mind works but we believe that that's some sort of processing so we say that all of these responses are a normal response to an abnormal situation and you know this i can't think of any time that's been more abnormal than 2020 so a normal response to an abnormal situation yes and that's something that goes for grief and loss as well it's not just trauma it's also grief and loss yes and we have to remember it is a night natural psychological process when we're moved out of what we come where what we're used to even if we're not comfortable if we moved out of a situation that we used to and we're put into another one there is a push and a pull within ourselves to go back to what we were in considered normal which was normal so that we're experiencing that so now that's something that goes for grief and loss too so trauma grief and loss it goes all together it their responses to a shift in identity to what identity we don't know if we knew we wouldn't have trauma if we knew we wouldn't have grief and loss because we would see immediately i may lose something here but i'm gonna get something else over here and but it is a psychological process and it's an emotional process it's called an existential inquiry it's it's a great sounding name isn't it it makes makes us sound intelligent it only means that i'm asking myself why am i here who i am what's my purpose in life if i thought i was passionate about this but now life seems to say you're not this is not exactly where you should be it was fine while you were here for a while but now you need to go in this other path the problem is life tells you this is not the path for you but it doesn't tell you very clearly which one is so that's where the difficulty is who am i really what am i here for what is the meaning of my life does it even have any meaning what is really important to me i thought going to work was important now they send me home should i stay home it's being with the family important what is for me but now i hear that some families where there's abuse there's dysfunction children are getting hurt that doesn't sound like a good idea but my experience is a good idea so what is what does what does it all mean how do i get some balance and harmony in my life and how can i share that balance and how many with others because any identity that is fully formed will move from a narcissistic approach to a more altruistic approach in every single case because as we become older and more mature we also become more able to see in different layers so this is impacting in this area of life but where else is it impacting and how can i be of service in other areas that doesn't mean you become a superhero we can't be everything to everyone we're not superman but it does mean that as we grow as we grow older we do expand to help other people and this could not be achieved by the way without this existential inquiry that makes us sometimes feel threatened and it pushes some of us into trauma and also almost everyone pushes almost everyone into grief and loss even if we experience it differently i'm sure that a lot of people we have cried many times over what's going on in the world right now right and maybe not just because with covid maybe we have cried because because of how the world is being polluted and we don't want to see it that way we have cried because of how many animals are disappearing or being extinct who knows there's so many things that we could focus on but it is an existential inquiry it is a call to action how are you going to show up for the world from today on and i think peter it's it's also in when we're in these situations we're reminded that we may not be around forever or things can change really really quickly so am i doing all the things that i want to do with my life yeah and they're they're great questions for people to ask um but it can be difficult to face those questions as well so it's really important that people get assistance with that if they need it right yeah the other thing to remember that we're talking to the privilege in a sense the privileged class of humanity we are we are we have we have everything we want even even some of the poorest among us sometimes have a lot more than the poor in third world countries so in a sense we're we're spoiled we're emotionally psychologically and physically spoiled can you agree with that most of us most of us i'm not saying everybody i'm not saying everybody i know some people are saying not everybody i agree not everybody but most of us are spoiled so what happens with spoiled people when things don't go our way we feel it don't we chuck a tantrum we don't like it so that's grief and loss that that can precipitate us into a traumatic event but it is not necessarily an unnatural thing it is a natural process so if we learn the techniques to go through it as quickly as possible we will save ourselves some suffering and we can help other people through that as well take it away so how do we support people who have experienced trauma then this is one of the big questions that came in and in particular how do we manage psychological safety in the workplace for people that we know have experienced a trauma in their past so we're going to run through eight principles of in response to that how do we manage psychological safety and how do we support people who've experienced trauma and the first one is be trauma informed which is sort of what you're doing here today being aware that people have been through all sorts of things that you may not know about and most people don't introduce themselves and immediately tell you all about the traumatic events in their life but you know we can safely assume that there'll be a certain proportion of people who have been through a potentially traumatic event some who will have struggled with it at some point now you don't need to know all about that situation all the nitty gritty details in order to create psychological safety but being trauma informed is about being aware so there may be some clues for example in a workplace you might see someone overreacting to things or what seems like an overreaction to you if you don't know how what's going on for them for example a really common one might be if someone really struggles to receive feedback it can be presented in the best possible way but they can still feel it as criticism we know that that one's very common for people who've been through some sort of traumatic event in the past so you know don't assume just keep it in mind it might not be about you their reaction but just you know if you see those sorts of scenarios you can go oh i remember what they were saying about trauma there might be something going on here i don't need to ask about it but that awareness helps you respond better the second point is avoid retraumatization which means avoid things that are going to make the trauma worse or make it come back in a sense if it is work related you can make sure that there are safety measures in place so it doesn't happen again but don't be too tight about things we know from psychology that one of the best therapies we have for trauma is gradual exposure to to things so we're not as sensitive to it but don't do it by yourself do it with expert help now we want to make sure that we're physically and psychologically safe physical measures are usually pretty clear you just avoid certain things psychological things sometimes are not as clear it may be things that we need to be brutally honest with ourselves and say when i do this activity even though i like it that is not actually good for me i'll give you an example that is an easy one so if a person not you but if a person is feeling very scared with the with the current situation that we have around covid one of the things that is simple that they may not like doing is to actually not watch the news for a couple of days right very simple but they might not look like that they might not like it because sometimes it's weird but psychologically and this happens to all of us it's almost like an addiction we are attracted to a little bit of pain a little bit of drama and we seek it out and when we cut it off it's like something is missing it's almost like being addicted to alcohol or drugs you know it's not good for you but when you if you stop it what happens you get a craving for it don't you so the same thing at the psychological level we can become addicted to bad news or things that are not actually at actually toxic for us that's why it's so hard to live toxic relationships because we're addicted to the toxicity it's not our fault it's a perfectly natural response it's about being aware that this happens and being a little bit more disciplined and say no i'm going to stop it but the third one is trust and transparency so this is kind of related to that psychological safety it's in a workplace particularly do what you say you do do what you say you will be honest be clear so for a lot of people who've experienced something traumatic it's an interpersonal trauma related to people so you want to create a space where people can trust each other don't surprise people provide information make sure they know what's happening and when and why as much as you can obviously there's going to be different scenarios that come up but this principle of being transparent so that people can trust you will go a long way to creating a psychologically safe working environment so the fourth one is provide dignity and choice and this is remember that one of the principal elements for trauma to happen is for the person to feel helpless that they have no control over the situation so you want at work you want certain policies and practices which respect people's autonomy and respect their ability to make informed decisions and this is one of the problems that we've had with this COVID situation around the world is that many many governments have not trusted their citizens they are not treating their citizens as fully grown adults that can be trusted and they treat them as children I've got news for them at the psychological level grown-ups don't like to be treated like children and if you do they will not like you and they will develop stuff around mental health if they take it inward and if they can't take it if they don't take it inwards they will lash out somehow this is wrong and we as at a psychological level we need to trust people with honor dignity and respect and and that provides them the aspect the the not the aspect the the environment where they can take agency there they can take agency responsibility for their decisions and that's that's very important now I understand that that's not when you're in a crisis people are going to have the first response which is going to be while we make a we'll make while we make decisions as to what this means we need we need to take very drastic action that that's normal but if we if that lack of respect continues for a long time it can be very damaging at the psychological level individual psychological level and also the collective psychology there's two kinds of psychology the individual and the collective and this is what we're seeing sometimes when people are not playing along it's because they feel disrespected and they out of control yeah so that's true and even at the individual level you know even just one on one with another person it can be very tempting if you're a caring person and a loving person to want to kind of look after people and say oh they're there cheap hosting you know that must have been so difficult and and sometimes that can come across as condescending for people so we've got to be really careful to get that balanced right expressing empathy and reassurance but also treating people as capable and strong adults which they are so that we don't create a victim mentality so that balance is something that you'll need to again work out case by case but just keep that in mind just because someone's been through something difficult doesn't mean that they're they're weak or less than or that you should treat them as a child they're still strong adults we want to encourage people to tap into that part of themselves too and we know this is a basic psychological principle if you treat people as stupid they will behave stupid and if you treat people as kids they will behave like kids and guess what the kids do you know they they run amok so it's a basic these are basic proven psychological principles we've got study after study they have shown this but we don't have the time to go into it maybe that'll be we can talk about it in another life later so the next one is managing triggers which is a very interesting one there's been a lot of talk about this in recent years and the challenge is you can't protect people against all triggers because first of all you may not be aware what they are and they can also be very very specific to the individuals it could be something like a particular word that has a special meaning for them and that might be unavoidable so you know we normally try and address triggers by including trigger warnings before events for example so you've all heard them you know this topic might be sensitive and sometimes that can be a very genuine concern sometimes it can be about people you know making sure that they're not liable but the research seems to be in now that many times trigger warnings can actually make the situation worse this is coming from a Harvard study that was done and this is because of the power of language it's think about the reverse of the placebo effect so if you tell someone that this is going to be really really difficult and stressful then it's more likely to be difficult and stressful so i give the example of you know when you go to the doctor and you have to have some sort of procedure or maybe an injection or something you want some warning but you don't want the doctor to say oh this is going to be excruciating so he wouldn't go back to that doctor ever again they say look this might be a little bit uncomfortable but it'll be over in a second so they give you some warning but they also let you know it's going to be okay and you see the same thing on airlines for those of you who remember what it was like to catch a plane you would say in an unlikely event of an emergency so this is kind of the approach that we want when it comes to triggers notice that it's kind of broad it's it doesn't say what that emergency is it just says look if stuff comes up that's okay here's what we do so there's a plan of action for that as well so that'll again allows the person to feel empowered that they have the opportunity to look after themselves because there is a mutual responsibility here in in workplaces that you know we do everything we can to create good environments for people but the person himself has a responsibility too so at the end of the day showing that you care goes a long way and having those honest conversations and talking about what people need yeah the number six is manage the physical space that's very straightforward things that we can think about at work is good lighting if not even at work I mean even in cities if lighting is poor it has shown that crime increases so good lighting good lighting in the in the home clear entrances and exits is there enough space for people or are they going to feel claustrophobic are there any I'm thinking of mental health can can police show up to help people not dressed as police but they came in plain clothes we know that if they show up in plain clothes the likelihood of something escalating into violence is lessened so that that's something to take into consideration right so yeah on the individual level yeah number seven meet people where they're at so this is a more of an individual level principle don't tell the person oh it's not so bad or to go back to the current situation you know at least you can see your family or at least don't minimize a person's experience especially if you haven't been through it yourself and even if you have been through it yourself you haven't been through it as that person so respect their experience try and understand what they're going through so this two sides to this don't minimize it but don't embellish it either as peter referred to earlier that's terrible that's so bad if the person's not feeling that so really try and put your own judgment aside yeah it's it's hard I realize it's hard because we we're such social animals aren't we and it's all about emotions sometimes when we interact with people how we make them feel how they make us feel but it is important if we're going to help people and I know some of you are interested in what do I do how do I help people that are experiencing this try to be as neutral as possible for their safety while still remaining human so with that it brings me to point eight don't assume what is going to be helpful rule number one rule number one of anyone that wants to help is ask three-letter word ask ASK what do you need to feel safe are you feeling safe how do you feel should be the first one how do you feel I'm fine okay if you can believe it if it's unlike I'm fine but maybe you don't believe it are you sure you're not sounding like you're fine so but make sure that you do that in a kind way not in a pushy way not in a in a sticky bit way not like in a way that you want to leave them naked you know some people just need to know that you're there they don't need to do be a counselor or you shouldn't be a counselor anyway if you want to help people in a workplace for example it might be simple things like how is the desk position in the office and I've seen a lot of people that get relaxed with very different things it's amazing in English countries how many people get get back into relaxed mode with a cup of tea or a cup of coffee you know it's wonderful and that's all they need however however that is their experience it doesn't mean that because I like a cup of tea or like a coffee that makes me relax that's gonna relax them so find out ask help the process for them when you're asking it shouldn't be you're asking because you want to know it should be more a helpful questioning that helps them work out things because it's not about us is it it's about them so the question should be in such a way that it helps them well that's the eighth point and let's talk a little bit about how this we've had a couple of questions one is how to create wellness so we'll be talking about that a little bit how to create wellness there's two aspects to that how do we create wellness or more than one aspect maybe there's more than two and one is how do we create wellness for ourselves then there's another one is how do we create wellness for others one of the one of the key things that we can do in order to create wellness for ourselves and others is not necessarily think positively although that's helpful but make sure that we don't we don't create negative I'll give you an example by that what I mean by that by creating negative it means that you may have a negative thought stop the process of articulating and expressing the negative thought that's the first step so don't worry about being positive just don't create negative don't let it become form in the physical world that sounds a bit esoteric isn't it but but you know what I'm getting at that don't don't let it come out of your lips if if we win that battle we are winning a big battle in creating wellness for ourselves because remember I don't know if I've told you this before but your brain is listening to whatever you say when he is something that you said he says got it that's what we're gonna do the brain is not there to help you out in anything except in achieving what you have created what your what your intention is basic psychology right your your brain is there to help you that way so remember that wellness for yourself don't let it come out wellness for others don't let it come out you know that's a basic one too so that's something that we can do so one of the other questions that's come in yes is around the impact of lockdown for well-being and I think we've covered some of these already but just to go through some of the key impacts obviously some people are having a trauma response which may appear to others to be overreacting or paranoid but it does make sense when you understand what's going on with people's lives being impacted in such an extreme way so fear is appropriate anger is appropriate these are all sort of normal trauma responses others may go more down the grief and loss side so loss of job loss of family members loss of certainty loss of control and that can also change the beliefs that we have about the world and how things work in the world so sadness anger blaming and ultimately we aim to have some kind of acceptance of the situation and that doesn't necessarily mean resignation or that we approve of it but it's a sense of clarity as to well this is what the situation is that we're dealing with now what do i do with that how do i move forward so it's all well and good to kind of say look on the positive side of things let's be strong and let's be resilient and we i'm sure we can all ourselves do that some days we wake up and say right i'm going to go for it and i'm going to make the most of things but for another person they might not be having one of those days he may be having a different day where they're not feeling so great and so we've got to be really careful not to dismiss other people's experience of the situation other negative impacts yeah go on yeah i remember a few years back there's some studies that have shown that the depressed people are generally more realistic than non-depressed people it doesn't it doesn't mean that it serves them but they do seem to be more in touch with what is really going on so if somebody comes along and says oh but you know isn't it wonderful that we have all this time now you're completely not creating any reforge that's not very helpful because because the person is saying hang on am i going crazy here um am i am i the only one that can see this and that can be quite frustrating for people so we're also another impact of lockdown for well-being is the strange relationships that we've mentioned whether that's family and domestic violence whether that's conflict with friends some of us just need more space and if you're in a lockdown and you don't have the space to yourself that can be very difficult especially if you're already under stress and pressure things you know juggling work homeschooling kids financial pressures even think you know busier days with more cooking and cleaning when you're in a lockdown situation all of those things add just that extra layers of stress and it can build up and then you couple that with the fact that you don't have the usual coping mechanisms that you may have available so for someone who's usual way of dealing with stress is to go to and have a heavy workout at the gym with the weights but they can't do that right now or you know if you if you're not able to walk i know some lockdowns you can some you can't but maybe it's go for a swim at the pool and get in the water if that's not available or a personal hobby whatever that was so if those are the things that people relied on and now you can't do it what what coping mechanisms do you have left thinking about different demographics you might have single people who don't have that social contact with people of a physical contact right there in in the house with them older people for example you know might have their routines that normally involve going out to you know get my hair done once a week or by the paper at the shops you've also then got the physical impacts of you know less fresh air less sunshine all those things that we know are good for for well-being may not be so readily available so we've really got to work to find other coping mechanisms in these scenarios and of course if the extreme end it can become so much that people get to really thinking about what's the point and we're going to talk a little bit about that pointy end of the scale in another in another live coming up but it is a place that unfortunately some people get to yeah the the other thing it was thinking about is this area of personal space you know one of the things that we've noticed around the world is in countries where people don't don't have a need to touch or be close to other people as much have done better with covid because the whole two meter distancing is not that hard for them it's kind of like that we're doing it already so they don't come in close contact so often but in countries where hugs and touch and physical you know facial expression and gestures are so important not to be able to have in touch it's it's a little bit of a murder of your own soul you know it's like it's something is missing and can precipitate into especially all people that are on death's door you know we've seen really sad sad things happening there dying you know spending the last months of their lives isolated and not able to hug and touch and say goodbye to their family members it's um torture so it's about being able to to empathize with the situation I don't know what the solution is uh because we haven't spent time thinking about what the alternative solution is but there's definitely a need in that area so this kind of relates to the last question which was the impact of extended periods of working from home and that disconnection so these are actually two different things working from home in and of itself is not so bad for some people whereas others will prefer the office some people love it some people are loving it yeah exactly and we've seen a lot of discussions coming up around you know many people saying oh I really like this way of working and that's fine for workplaces it's just about recognizing that we're diverse and your workforce is going to have diverse personalities and people with different preferences and needs so it's a good thing to create systems that work for everybody it's not one size fits all we all work from home or we all must be in in a fixed working environment some flexibility where you can is a good thing for well-being generally now obviously there's going to be constraints and restrictions depending on the industry that you're in and the type of work that you're doing but that principle of flexibility is very very important disconnection on the other hand that's something that does have an impact we're social we're humans are social people we even the most introverted people still need social contact so there's a lot of philosophers etc you know people who've written about the benefits of isolation and when they've studied this what the research is showing is that yes periods of isolation can be a good thing but what makes the difference is if it's something that we've chosen to do voluntarily versus if it's forced upon like a fast as if it was an emotional fasting yeah yeah it's a good analogy so forced isolation is not beneficial for well-being and you know we see that even in if you think about prisons and jails you know the worst punishment you can get is being sent to isolation so yes it's going to have an impact on people and I'm you know particularly concerned about young people from little kids who are learning how to how to interact with others I definitely saw for for my son for example it took him a couple of months after quarantine to get confident to approach other kids in the park you know so it had a luckily short-term impact teams are in other groups that I think really need their peers at that time in life so there's that sort of impacts and we've already sort of mentioned the emotional isolation as well where people have you might have differing views from friends and family members about what's going on and you know we're seeing a lot of people heavily invested in their own perspective so lots of conflict etc and that's a different sense of isolation feeling like you're the only one who thinks this way and I guess that's an important thing to remember that everyone's struggling and we've seen we've seen some people react really well to working from home we have seen some people that can't wait to get back to the office I don't get it because they're working from home working from the coffee working from the beach kind of guy but you know I get it you know some people love the office the structure that it provides and we've seen some people working from home really burn out because to them psychologically if they're not in the presence of where the boss is they feel that they have to keep proving how valuable they are so Matt is asking a really good question how do business reinvent with this and I think from a psychological perspective there's an absolute need to reinvent the workplace I don't think the expectation of someone going in 50 hours into a building and staying there with our sunlight in the with LED lighting and that is natural that is so unnatural so how do we reinvent it how do we how do we get flexibility that's a great word flexibility is of the essence and that flexibility should not be imposed should be should be should be asked what do people need and can we work around those needs obviously some people don't have a choice some people don't work in an office a plumber doesn't need can't work from home neither does a painter you know there's many professions many many professions those that are considered essential actually interestingly and most of the ones considered essential these days can't work from home they have to work somewhere else but those other professions the the more white-collar professions well we have learned that people don't need to be in an office in order to work anymore we are so connected that's part of the problem by the way um for some people that's part of the problem but I think it's wonderful that you don't have to keep that's my nature I don't have to keep a nine to five regulation I don't have to go into a building when I'm told I don't have to get into a bus and which is what by the way getting into public transport is probably one of the worst things that you can do for a virus so why would we do it you know um so there are really good considerations to be more flexible to me be more balanced to work with people where we can obviously a nurse they gotta show up they can't work from home maybe they can do something from home with a new technology maybe they can but it's difficult so it's about flexibility isn't it what's the job like can we ask people what's the best way for working if I had to go into an office I'll give you an example if I had to work into an office the best way for me would be two days in the office one day at home on Wednesdays because Wednesday is is hump day and having Wednesday to myself not having to dress up for the office or just dressing up the topic for the office it would be fantastic and then I can have Thursday on Friday and then the weekend is that would that would be ideal for me but that might not be an idea for everybody it's not all or none it's and it's about having those discussions with your workforce with your team get everyone together and brainstorm what what are the ideas what works for you what works for you how can we how can we do this given our industry and our our environments you know what the needs are for the business what the needs are for the team what the needs are for the individual let's have those open honest discussions about how we want to create things start from a blank slate if anything was possible how would we do it and go from there yeah I agree I don't see why we need to spend one hour to two hours sitting in a car getting to work or being crammed like sardines in public transport being to going to work every single day anymore the work the life has changed how we do work has changed so why not use those to our advantage great so I hope that's some interesting ideas for you today some food for thought on a bunch of different topics we might leave it there remember be kind to people if there was one message that to take away from all of this it's be kind everyone's different everyone's going through their own journey so be kind to yourself as well next week we're going to change a little bit yeah gone before you go into that I just want to remind everybody look there's a lot of people suffering out there obviously what we've talked about it's valuable content if you want to share this with them please do so we're going to put this video up on on our youtube channel Workplace Mental Health Institute youtube channel so you can find it there you can subscribe you can share the links to the video to people that you know the more people that benefit from it the better from from where we stand and also trauma trauma grief and loss that we've talked about have got a common component and that common element in all of them is fear fear in the next two weeks we're going to be producing our next emag online and it's going to be about fear and how fear kills and how we have to be very careful with this so if you haven't signed up for our emag we usually send it by a mail we put a post on facebook as well but if you want to subscribe go to our website dwmhi and look for the emag section and just subscribe so you get it because it's going to be really good you're going to like that now you can that's dhwmhi.com so next week is going to be all about change and adaptability and flexibilities home building on this conversation as well and the future of well-being moving forward so lots of juicy stuff to talk there good stuff there as well thanks for joining thanks for watching we love you all see ya