 Welcome to the leaders room. Today we have with us Anisha Shashindran, chief talent officer for Groupon. Anisha, we're so excited to have you here with us. I love the story you have to tell around building a creative life. Before I get into some of those details, I'd like to know a little bit more about your creative life. I know you've worked at iSEC, and of course you're a Groupon. Tell me a little bit about what it is you did it at, what iSEC is, and what it is you did there. All right. So iSEC is the world's largest international youth not-for-profit, and you know they are present in over like hundred and ten countries and stuff like that. And the tool that iSEC uses to impact the world is leadership development. So I was part of that movement basically. And I was in iSEC for about seven years. I did all sorts of stuff. I started from entry level right up to being part of the international headquarter team based in the Netherlands. So you started in university, right? Yeah. I basically, by third week in university, I stumbled upon this booth called iSEC. We're talking about business, management, leadership development, and I was like, hmm, okay, interesting. So I joined and it was the best decision I made. So I've done all sorts of stuff in iSEC. I was doing sales, I was doing talent management, I was doing recruitment, project management. And in the Netherlands, I was basically working with not-for-profit organizations and also like the UN agencies, European Union and all, to facilitate youth development, leadership development programs for young people. So it's not just exchange programs? Yeah, the exchange program, the workabroad program is one of the main things that iSEC does, but we also do other sort, other things like projects and conferences and stuff. Yeah, really right. So what did it do for you? I mean, here you were a Malaysian girl growing up in Malaysia. Where were you at school in Malaysia? Yeah, I studied in Malaysia. Okay, and then you stumbled across this international agency and it takes you to not just, you know, the Netherlands, but all over the place. You told me you've been to, what, 40 countries? Yeah, because of iSEC. Yeah, because of iSEC, I developed this interest to travel and get to know different cultures and people and stuff. And so I traveled to over 40 countries, actually through iSEC. Do you have a favorite place that you've been? Oh, it's very tough. It's very tough to answer because every country is unique. Yeah. And I personally felt that I loved Africa. I loved Africa. It's just full of color and it's vibrant and the people are really amazing. Yeah. Well, we'll talk more about that later. What about Groupon? What are you doing at Groupon? Okay, in Groupon, I basically lead people's strategies. I look at how the business and people work together. And that kind of like also entails me doing recruitment for Groupon, talent management, learning and development and so on. Yeah, interesting. Now, I have to quote here from an article I read about you in the New Straits Times. This was a while ago, so I don't know if you still agree with it. But what you said in this article was, and I quote, I think Malaysian youth are highly capable, but they lack the courage to explore their options. They're unclear about their goals and allow their environments to influence their decisions. They're also comfortable where they are and do not want to go farther. Do you stand by this still? Is this still something that you're encountering when you're interviewing all those young people? To a large extent, I still do. I think it's very normal in our society today because when you grow up, your parents tell you, okay, you have three career options. You either be a doctor or an engineer or a lawyer. And then when you're in school, you need to be great at what you do. You need to be a great student. And when you finish school, you go to university. You get great grades. And after you finish uni, immediately jump into a job or a career that can pay you well. And that's what you've been told since you were young. And I think that's where a lot of Asians or Malaysians in general fall into the norm. That's normal for them. And that's what they've been told. And that's what they will do. Things like exploring or making mistakes isn't something that is very encouraged in our culture because you're always punished if you make a mistake. Punished? Yeah, punish me. How bad is it? Okay, you have the cane occasionally. Isn't that bad? It's not, it's not But there's disapproval. Yeah. So basically, mistakes are always perceived as a big no, no, you know, in our society. So therefore, to kind of like, you know, basically, just follow, just follow what's normal, just just do what's normal. And and normal means that don't go out of your comfort zone because then there's more a higher mistake, higher possibilities of making mistakes. So I think that's where like the mindset comes, you know, for a lot of Asians or Malaysians in general, because you just do what you've been told by your society or your family. And then you'll be okay. Then you'll never be punished. And and you'll be happy. Right. So I guess that's where like typically I find that Asians are very, very followers in general, followers in general. Though with the rise of the Gen Y community and all, I'm starting to see a little bit of difference in the way Gen Y think. And I think that I'm very happy to have found a couple of them to work with me in Groupon. So I'm curious, why do you think Gen Y is so different? Yeah. Is it the parents? Is it how they're being raised? Is it the internet? Are they getting more chance to travel? Are they reading different things? What's going on with these guys? Yeah, I think it's a couple of things. It's definitely the way that they've been brought up by the parents. Technology has played a very big part in again, you know, making sure that communication is, is, is reachable anywhere. And information is shared very, very easily. So when I was working in the Netherlands, I realized that, you know, when you reach the age of 18, people actually take a take time off school to go and travel. You know, I found this really interesting, because in Malaysia, there's no such thing. There's no way you leave school. No gap year. Yeah, you don't have gap years. It's just a process, one after another. But now because of Facebook and all, you get to see a lot of different information sharing of experiences where I feel now Gen Y is a little bit more knowledgeable and they're open to kind of like this kind of information, knowing that, hey, there's this, this, this person, same age, you know, in the Netherlands, who's, who's traveling a year after school, right? Why, why can't I do that? And again, you know, now everyone can fly. So flying isn't that expensive anymore. Thank you, Eurasia. Right. Thank you very much. Yeah. So I think all these factors have, you know, directly and indirectly shaped the way Gen Ys are thinking more and more. And I like that way of thinking. Do you think that they are more interested in pursuing their own interests, sort of learning about themselves and saying, you know, hey, I, I like, maybe I've had this experience and maybe I've just read on Facebook about somebody else's experience. But wow, that appeals to me. And suddenly these dreams my parents had for me, they're they're fading away. They're no longer relevant. Yeah. To a certain extent, I mean, to be frank, I don't think so. A lot of people that I know in Asian community, they're very respectful to what their parents, you know, have one for them or envision for them. And I think that even for myself, I mean, I'm raised up in a very traditional family where my parents told me what I need to do and what I need to be when I grow up, right? And I have a lot of respect to my parents because I'm everything that I am because of them. But I think it's also making the people that mean the most to you understand and see what you would like to kind of shape up for yourself. So I think Asian Malaysian youth are very, very respectful and they will follow whatever that parents want for them. But there's also somewhat a negotiation experience that's happening at this point of time where even in my family, you know, I told my parents, okay, I'm after university, I'm going to work for a not-for-profit, I'm going to earn 850 ringgit a month. But just allow me to do this for three years, just three years and see what becomes from that. Right? Yeah. And so that there was a negotiation process where they were probably not too happy with that. They weren't too happy. I mean, they spent quite a bit for my education and then, you know, the returns was just 850 ringgit a month, which is not very typical again, right? But again, I wanted them to know that this meant a lot for me because I'm a biotechnologist by qualification. But I know my passion is more in people development, leadership development, business management and stuff. And if I don't venture into this experience at this point of time, then I may never be able to do that later. You know, so I tried to share with them what I wanted for myself and also negotiated a timeline. So if things don't work out, at least I know that, okay, I did my best within these three years and now I can mention to something that maybe it's normal or what they want from me and stuff like that. But my three years turned out to be great. So that's great. So what advice would you give to other Malaysian youth, you know, Gen Y people in their teens and twenties, if they sort of catch wind that they can actually do things a little bit differently. What advice would you give to them to first of all perhaps figure out what it is they'd like to do and then to actually be able to do it? Yeah. So Nike is going to love me for this. But I really think you just should do it. Just do it. You know, like whatever you want to try for yourself or experience, just do it. My theory is I never want to live my life asking what if. You know, so if you have that curiosity or that interest, then just do it. You know. And when you do it, if you mention to something, you give your 110%, not 99%, not 100%. I mean, even in Groupon, we are very ambitious as a team. And we know that if we don't give our 110% attention and focus and hard work, we're not going to get there. You know what I mean? So like I think it is very important for someone to have that determination and courage to give everything that they have in order for them for them to succeed. That's great. You know, there's a study, not a study done, a book written recently by a palliative care nurse, somebody who looked who spends time with people in their very last days on earth. And she wrote a book called The Five Regrets of the Dying. Oh, I see. And actually the number one regret was that they didn't live the life that they were meant to lead that they that they gave in too much to other people's desires for them, whether it's a career or family or whatever. And it's a wonderful thing to learn that so young because you won't fall into that trap. Yeah. I always wanted to write my own story. So yeah, that's what kind of pushed me to just give my all best. And I made a lot of mistakes. I went through a lot of challenges. But what was your biggest mistake? Well, my biggest mistake is probably doing biotechnology. I mean, studying that course. I think I enjoyed my years in university. And I think that I again, it kind of shaped me to the person I am today. But it's just that at that point of time, perhaps I lacked the courage to, to, you know, venture into something that I was not comfortable. Yeah. I would have probably done better if I, not better. And I would have, it would have been a little bit more interesting and complimenting my interest if I studied something really, maybe people development or business management. Psychology or something like that. I'm, I'm very glad I mined in psychology. So that was like a, a big thing for me. But it's just that as much as I love whatever I learned in biotechnology, but it's just that it doesn't directly related to what you're actually doing. Yeah. And it just doesn't bring out the best in me, you know, like in my actions, in my thoughts and, and my energy and stuff like that. So if I could, I mean, that was perhaps a mistake. But I love mistakes because mistakes have been my greatest teachers in life. So that's good. Yeah. You mentioned that Malaysian youth, you know, have a little something to learn that they could be urged to be sort of open up and be a little more innovative and creative around their own life in all that work that you did at ISAC, or perhaps even at Groupon when you're traveling around the 40 different countries and you're meeting all these people and you're going to conferences and you're involved with the UN. Is there any particular culture that you would characterize as being that more open place where you look at the kids coming out and they are very, you know, charging ahead into the world? Maybe they don't know what they're doing, but at least they've got the energy and they're, and they're open to it. Is there a, would you characterize any place like that? Generally, I think, I think I spent quite a bit of time in Europe and just, just working with these guys, I feel that the European youth are pretty much what you've just described. They may not know everything, but then again, they're bold. They're bold to go and find out the answers. They're bold to go and experiment and explore. And I think I really like that kind of attitude and energy because eventually if you're, you just need the right attitude. You know, you don't, people don't judge you from where you come from or your skill sets and stuff, but it's more of your attitude that, that kind of like drives you to become great. And I think that the European youth is, I mean something that I admired about them. Interesting. So I'm very curious. You're interested in this topic of leadership. You are a leader in Groupon. You've got all these high energy creative, independently minded, 110% energy people. What, what are the implications for leadership? What's it like to be leading people who are like that versus the more traditional workforce, which is basically saying, Hey, tell me what to do and I'll go do it. Yeah. All right. Well, I always, I'm very proud to say this. I say, you know, we are a team of rebels, young, genuine rebels. We're proud to be that because we are rebels that want to work and build one of the fastest growing companies in Malaysia. You know, so we always channel our genuine energy in a positive way. And how exactly do you do that? How do you get that direction, that, that focus? In a couple of things, we're very stringent with hiring. As you can see, 4,500 people, we've offered over 200 were very, very stringent with hiring. And when we hire at every stage of their recruitment process, we're very, very transparent as to what to expect if they join a company like ours. So unlike typical companies that tell you, hey, join us because of this, this, this, this, I usually find myself saying, don't join us because of this, this, this. You know, so I make it very, very transparent. I set the right expectations from their first interview right up to their final interview. Because you're looking for fit. If there's no good fit, it doesn't matter. Why would I be trying to trick you into coming here and then have you not work out? It's just like getting into a relationship, right? You want to start on the right note. And to start on the right note means that you have the, you're very clear expectations of what to expect or what not to expect. So I mean, working with Genwise, I feel that this is something that companies must do and we do it quite well. We set the right expectations. If you're looking for this, don't join us. If you're looking for that, then maybe group on is your place. And I think that's one. And recently, we also got, we were nominated by World Blue as one of the most democratic workplaces. How so? So what do you do that's so democratic? Yeah, exactly. So actually, we entered this competition only because we wanted to evaluate whether or not, you know, truly we are a democratic workplace. And, and when we were one of the top 50s, we were very happy to know that. And I started to think a little bit more, okay, so what are we doing? The top 50 Malaysia? No, globally. Globally? Globally, we're one of the top 50 most democratic workplaces. And I think that there are a couple of things that, you know, I would associate to being democratic. And one is we listen. It's not just about giving people the space to just talk and make decisions, but we listen. And we're very, you know, strategic with our listening. So we welcome all ideas. We have several platforms. We have anonymous platforms where people can tell us what they are not happy about or their suggestions and ideas. But in Groupon, I find people a little bit more vocal. So they're very comfortable with coming up. We have open listening. They're going to be more vocal. It's a benevolent cycle, right? Exactly. And we have open door policies where, you know, there's no hierarchy or structure who you can communicate with. So they just come up and tell you their challenges or their ideas and concerns. And we listen. And a lot of times like there are three types of things that we do when we listen. So when we receive ideas, their ideas are brilliant and we can do immediately. Then we tell them, thank you so much. This is something that we're going to do. And we always update them when we're going to do what their suggestion was. Sometimes ideas or suggestions are not something that we can do now because of the circumstance of the business and where we are and stuff like that. So then we tell them that, hey, this is a great idea. May not be able to do it now, but definitely something that we're going to look at. And eventually when we kind of like, you know, open the idea again, we always keep this person in the loop so that he or she feels really happy that he has contributed to the business. Sometimes, I mean, when it comes to democracy, yeah, listening is a big part of it. But that doesn't mean blindly just listening and doing whatever people want. So sometimes you have sometimes you have to say, great idea, I can't use it. But we always were very, very clear to explain why. Yeah. You know, and Gen Ys love that. Gen Ys love it. Like, OK, I've said it, but then there's also an explanation why it can't be done. So that's another thing. We really love, you know, being this democratic company. And another thing that supports this tool, yeah, is being, I mean, the culture of Groupon itself is very, very open. Everybody sits together with everyone. There's no leadership room or cubicle. No giant office in the corner and everybody else is in their cubes. Yeah, definitely not. So to experience high, as I always ask them this, do you want to sit in a room specifically, because if you are looking for something like that, then don't join Groupon. Because we like to keep it very, very open. We want to. Informal. I mean, I see the people walking around. So the desk is very informal. Yeah. Something else I saw that I thought was interesting. I saw your hours posted, which are 10 to 7. Yeah. So what's behind that? Yeah. So I think, well, Gen Y, anyone, people can come to Groupon anytime between 8 to 10. So if you come at 8, generally you go back at 5, 9, 6. But 10 is kind of like the latest someone can come in. And, well, why we have, you know, these flexible hours of 8 to 10 and then 5 to 7 is only because we've come to a point where, you know, Gen Y is again love, work-life balance and stuff. And we don't want to keep our flexibility. Just having the freedom to choose. Exactly. And also avoid the traffic. I wasn't even at that thing. That's fantastic. You're helping KL actually, taking some of the pressure off. That's true. That's true. And I like this. And I know all my people work more than what they're required to. And so we're not very nitpicky with the hours. But for us, we still have, we still have, you know, that 10 to 7 notification only because we look at timing as a sign of respect. Yeah. Yeah. So we still have... So you don't want them here till 10 at night? Oh, we don't want. In fact, sometimes I'm getting people to go back earlier. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know... Respect for their personal life. Respect for their human life. Exactly. But Gen Y these days, if you give them, you know, that big sense of ownership, they hold on strong to whatever they're responsible for. And this is something that I'm very proud to be working with some of the best Gen Ys that I've seen so far. So respect for the individual. It's wonderful that you're doing that for Gen Y, but I have to say it's something everyone should get. So anyway, thank you very much. It's been a wonderful talking to you. And I have great respect for what you're doing and I appreciate bringing out your ideas into the leaders room. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us in the leaders room. It's a wrap.