 And welcome to Liquid Margins and this is Social Annotation and Teacher Education. I'm going to introduce today's guest and then I'll turn it over to our guest moderator. We have Lysandra Cook. She's an associate professor of education at the University of Virginia. Matt Yelk. He's an instructional specialist at in Fohio. I like saying that in Fohio. It's fun. Probably said it wrong. And Charles Logan, a doctoral student in learning sciences at Northwestern University. And Raimi Kalyer, he's an assistant professor of learning design and technology at the University of Colorado Denver. He's also our inaugural hypothesis scholar in residence. And with that, I'm going to stop sharing. And Raimi, I'm going to turn it over to you. And maybe you could ask the guests to introduce themselves and talk about their backgrounds a little bit. Thanks so much, Franny. And greetings to everyone who's joining us. As I look at the list of attendees, it's lovely to see some familiar faces and also many folks who are new. And I'm going to really step back and get out of the way. And so if our three invited panelists can tell us a little bit about their professional background and briefly a little bit of what they do as teacher educators, supporting educator learning or how they work in the field of education, we'll go around and maybe Lysandra will begin with you. Sure. Thank you very much. Like they said, my name is Lysandra Cook. And I'm actually an associate professor at the University of Virginia and a coordinator for the special education program. So I'm a special education faculty member. And I have been here at UVA. This is my third year before that. I was at the University of Hawaii for 13 years. And I teach method courses predominantly for future special educators, as well as future general educators that are, of course, going to have students with disabilities in their classrooms. So we try to integrate as much as possible. I would say that we're still working on that in terms of fully collaborating at the university level. Do you want me to, I know, isn't that a crazy move from Hawaii to here? So that was, it's been, it's been tough. Um, brief introduction now and then come around to how. Thanks, Sandra. Yeah, that's great. We'll come right back around a little bit more about our teaching practices. Matt, welcome so much. Say hi. Thank you so much for having me. So my name is Matt Yauke. I am coming from Columbus, Ohio, USA. And I'm currently a instructional specialist at Infohio, which is basically a giant digital library for all Ohio educators. We offer a bunch of openly licensed materials, things that are more sort of premium and provide them at no cost to Ohio's educator. So one of my roles is actually rolling out a new platform called Remote EdX, which is going to basically combine a lot of different research, different strategies, tools, and just stuff for remote learning and hybrid learning for all Ohio educators. So I'm excited about that and to be doing that work. So thank you so much for having me. That's brilliant, Matt. Thanks, Charles. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me, everybody. My name is Charles Logan. As Frenny said, I am a first year doctoral student in the Learning Sciences program at Northwestern University. Prior to starting graduate school again, I worked at the Ohio State University, actually with Matt. I was an educational technologist in the College of Education and Human Ecology. And then prior to starting work in higher ed, I was a high school English teacher for about nine years. So excited to be here and to think about the ways social annotation can support teacher education. Brilliant. Well, I really love it to have all three of you here. And so we're going to really just open up the conversation now with a question that concerns, as actually as Charles just mentioned, social annotation, of course. And I'd love to know a little bit from each of you about how you first encountered social annotation. But beyond encountering social annotation, why is it stuck? Why is it for you a valued practice as a teacher educator, as someone who supports educator learning? And of course, as Lysander mentioned a moment ago, to then ultimately support educator practice with their own students. What is it about social annotation for you as a teacher educator that is valuable? I'll take a first step with that. It's a pretty broad question. I actually first heard about hypothesis on Twitter. So I tell a lot of my doc students like Twitter is a really great way to connect with other educators and even those educators that sort of overlap with what you do. So you're not just completely siloed. So I saw it on Twitter. I was really frustrated with when I moved to UVA from Hawaii, I had to teach online asynchronous for the first time in a while. And the discussion board post were just, it was really hard to kind of facilitate deep thinking, but also social connection in those courses. And I saw it and I thought I'm going to give it a shot. And it was maybe the fall of 19. And oh my gosh, the hypothesis team was so amazing in terms of answering my questions. It was before we had the integration with Canvas, they were, or right at the beginning, they were so helpful in terms of getting it to work. And the students responses, there are a couple that had tech issues, but the students loved it and loved being able to kind of compare their ideas and thoughts with their peers in a way that was easier than regurgitating it into a discussion post and trying to, so it really helped them right there in the meat of the article to be able to engage in a way and have discourse around certain topics. And I think over the years, I've not that many years, but over the years, I've gotten better at picking specific articles to annotate for specific outcome objectives and matching those a little bit better for me. That was a learning curve. But the social aspect, but also kind of the reading comprehension checks have been really beneficial from my perspective. Yeah. So I could speak a little bit about my background with annotation. And I used to be a classroom educator. So I taught business and technology for a number of years at the middle school and high school levels. And I actually found out about this website called Rappagenius from a student who was competing in a marketing competition. And he apparently worked on this site and helped to develop it and promote it. And when I finished that competition, I was judging it at the time, I went on to it and I was just floored by the possibilities that annotation could provide. And in this case, Rappagenius was basically trying to make sense of lyrics that were, I think, more maybe exclusive. I felt like it wasn't just a part of the club. I had no idea what those things meant. And this site basically provided context and meaning for lyrics. And I thought that was just a brilliant, brilliant idea. And in that sense, evolved into just genius.com now. But when I started to work in more of like the ed tech realm, and I eventually made my way to Ohio State as an instructional designer, and then eventually the academic tech director for the College of Education and Human Ecology, my role started to shift a little bit in how I can basically prepare other teachers and help others sort of make sense of all of the stuff that they have to teach with all of the competing demands. And I guess stumbled upon Hypothesis because I was looking for ways for commenting features basically like Rappagenius. That's exactly what I typed into the search and eventually made my way to Hypothesis. So I kind of felt it was the same, I had the same feeling actually when I first started using Hypothesis. I remember, you know, first starting off in higher ed, reading in higher ed, I mean, my undergraduate degree even. I remember reading research articles where I felt the same sense of maybe just disconnect. I didn't have the full picture. I didn't have the full story of what people were talking about. I often found myself going back and forth between the references and where people were talking about something. And I realized that, wow, annotation can actually help this and actually provide meaning right there in front where it's just in one view and it ended up becoming like a more sort of rich discussion almost with the text. It wasn't just me reading it, it became the sort of life form, if you will. I first discovered Hypothesis also on Twitter. And at the time I was teaching 9th and 10th grade English. And so as a teacher, I used it as a way to think about breaking down rhetorical moves that our authors were making in op-eds in order for students to identify how to do that in their own writing. And then when I moved into higher ed and became an educational technologist and was working with faculty on developing their own pedagogy and how that related to technology, I would often lead professional development experiences. And so one of the things that I think is powerful about social annotation with teacher educators is especially as we moved online is to think about, you know, we would annotate an article on how to build an online community at the same time we were building that community with social annotation. And so there's a way and sort of functions as sort of like a meta technology and thinking about the meta discussions of, you know, here's, let's talk about this article, but then let's take a step back and think about how would this technology help me as a teacher. And so I think combining those two conversations is something that I think social annotation allows you to do with your, you know, with students who are becoming teachers is how, you know, read this thing, we'll talk about it. But then that other conversation of how does this technology actually support your pedagogy or how might it, you know, further your goals as an educator. Charles, I appreciate that. First of all, thank you, you know, everyone for giving us a bit of that kind of personal history with annotation. I always enjoy hearing kind of what people learned about not only particular tools, but also communities and practices. You know, as you mentioned, Charles, you know, there is a kind of meta quality when perhaps pre-service teachers or in-service teachers or faculty educators are engaging in social annotation activities. There's often that kind of almost reflection on one's practice as one is simultaneously engaging in the practice of social annotation. And yet, while that may indeed, you know, be a true characteristic, it also perhaps varies by discipline, or perhaps by pedagogical goal. And you all represent very different disciplinary homes and perhaps have different discipline-specific either methods or really kind of goals for working with educators. And it may be illustrative for all of our guests today to hear some specific examples or some specific stories of the ways in which you've set up and facilitated social annotation activities to really support a discipline-specific practice or a very particular type of learning, either experience or outcome for your students. What does that look like in your classroom with your learners, who again are also educators? I can go first this time. So I think going back to sort of the designing the reading experience with the notion of let's discuss what we're reading, but also to model how you might use this in your own classroom. So a common practice with social annotation is to cede the reading with questions ahead of time in order to generate some maybe more focused discussion. So again, with this piece by Jesse Stommel about six different theses for an online classroom, it became see those questions or see the reading with questions about how would what Jesse is saying here relate to your own classroom or what questions you have about how would I do this in my own classroom? So at once it's a discussion about the text itself, but then I think what the challenge often I think with any technology that's happening in a digital realm is then how do you bridge that with your own practice? And so I think offering people an avenue or pathways to say, here's how I'm doing this, but being also very intentional about that going into it as a goal as a, you know, instructional designer or as an educator of educators is one thing to consider. And how I found to, yeah, have maybe more rich discussions that don't just are not just limited to the text, but can sort of spread out from there. Sorry. You asked like, you know, what disciplines I think would be would be good for this. And I would say maybe all of them. I think we're all kind of in the same field of we're always teaching someone something. I don't care what like field you're in or what career path you've chosen. Most likely you have to teach someone at some point in your career. And I think with that comes answering questions and sort of this idea of like correcting maybe misconceptions or elaborating on certain things. And I think annotation can can help do that. So I think a practice that probably applies to any field or any area of study is the idea of having a conversation with the text that normally wasn't possible before. You know, let's say you're an online teacher or teaching online students at this point, and you are assigning a text. A common question that we always got as like instructional designers was how do I know that students have done this? Or how do I know that students understand what I'm presenting here? Because a lot of classes, they are really text heavy. A lot of research articles, a lot of websites. And you know, I would say that, you know, annotation is a very quick and easy way to number one is find what people are thinking about the text to know that they're doing it. But I think more importantly, expose like how they're thinking about it and where they're at in their learning. So in a way, it's, it's very, it's a very like easy to use formative assessment by basically presenting it in a different form by, by, sorry, presenting an article in a different form. It becomes this entirely different, almost like an assignment or a practice, that's, it's not one dimensional anymore. So I would say that's like the nice and easy way to, to get going with it. Definitely. I, I think Drana, what Charles has said, I have used it in a way that they are coming back and making connections, because I'm always trying in the discussion throws, trying, you know, try to connect this and this and that. If you find the right kind of article that lends itself well, it can be that piece where they are annotating and saying how they connect this piece, especially I teach classroom and behavior management. And it's really nice to bring in some kind of equity or social justice pieces and have them specifically say some of the very explicit routines and practices that are research based about what you should do in your classroom, how those directly lead to equity or social justice in ways. And it's taken me a little while to kind of find the great piece for each of my courses that allows that kind of summarization and connection. But I've also used it really well. I teach collaboration and methods for special educators and speech pathologists. And we take general ed curriculum. And I give them kind of a set of IP objectives. They go through and try to align like here's right where I could be hitting this, you know, standard for the gen ed setting and embed this IP objective. And it allows them to kind of be a collaborative team on the curriculum and embed specific things. And then also, I go back, we go back through that same curriculum and then say, well, what would the pre teaching or intensification for students with disabilities look like before this lesson? And they can kind of talk and collaborate about that. And it's been a really useful tool for kind of a different service providers trying to look at curriculum that would be used in the gen ed setting and say, how are we infusing specific specially designed instruction or speech pathology objectives within that. And it's been a pretty helpful tool for that because those curriculum tend to be really big and overwhelming. But it's the one place where I can give them a large PDF and then consistently across the semester, sort of keep going back to it and delving deeper. And it's been a really nice, nice tool for that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Charles, do you want to jump back in, please? Yeah, I think one thing I wanted to add, I think that connects to what folks are talking about too is thinking about the ways in which disciplinary thinking can be made explicit. So what does it mean to read like a science educator, like a middle school math teacher, that as more experienced educators, we can model that in our own annotations ahead of time again. And then again, as sort of a scaffolding and then be taken away over time. But I think someone who's reading a lot of peer reviewed research these days and just is like, go and read this. I think there's a way of thinking and reading as an educator that social annotation can then make explicit and that the students can then also share their own thinking as a social studies teacher. Then it allows for both their peers to see how they're thinking, but also as you as their teacher to see and comment on too. So there's a way of, you know, metacognition and feedback or operating as well. So I think there's again, another, I think, powerful way to use social notation. Charles, I really appreciate that. Matt, please. I just kind of wanted to, yeah, piggyback off of what Charles just said there and yeah, totally agree. Like the modeling of it specifically is super important for educating educators because we don't want to just throw random tools at them and just expect that they know how to integrate it into the classroom. The course I teach, which is both intro and advanced software for teachers and trainers, how I constructed the lessons that use annotation, it's basically embedded and it's setting it up correctly. It's providing the documentation or the video on how to use it first and then and actually modeling the same behaviors that I would expect of them and basically setting the stage for how to use it in their own classrooms. So hopefully that's providing a little bit more context of how they might be able to integrate it and in some cases how easy it can be to do that. I really appreciate these comments. Thanks so much for everything I was just riffing now on these ideas of making thinking visible and the value that students have, whether those are younger learners or, again, educators of making thinking visible to their peer cohort, but then also as teacher educators, we are committed to making our thinking, as Charles was saying, in a kind of disciplinary lens visible in a particular way, all of which requires, on our part, as teacher educators to really be aware of our own teaching practices and to then be also kind of maybe critical and very reflective of what we're also learning about our practice. Lysander, you mentioned actually in your introduction or one of your introductory comments that you've learned now over a number of semesters that perhaps certain readings or even setting up certain readings may be more useful for certain students in certain ways and that got me thinking, I'd love to hear from all of you about some of the lessons that you're learning as teacher educators about how to, again, really effectively support your students learning, again, other educators learning through social annotation. What have you all learned about what either has worked well or maybe what didn't particularly work well? Then maybe a value to whoever may be watching this webinar, other educators that certainly maybe other teacher educators as well, what are some of those lessons? I think it's similar to anything we're doing in education is sort of remembering what is our outcome objective? What are we trying? What are we working towards? And then are there potential barriers to get there and designing the experience to meet our outcome objective? And I think at the beginning, I chose some readings that were probably too complex without supporting the students enough to get there and I found in some courses, the connection, what I was hoping to get was that kind of deeper connection piece and then in other courses, I'm actually using it as a reading comprehension tool. So it depends on the objective to match the reading to that objective and for the students where they are in the semester. But that took a little bit of time. I think the first couple of times I thought, this is such a cool tool. I'm just going to throw it at him. And then of course, like anything you do for teachers, it's not about the tool, it's about how you use it, what your outcome objective is. And so that took a little while to figure out and it's okay to use this very flexible tool for different objectives. But being clear about what your purpose is at any given time is definitely the lesson that I have learned. Yeah. So I think, and this is complete credit to both Charles and you, Raimi, using a syllabus and having students annotate it. So Charles had shared the idea, I think it was your thread or your article that you had written and immediately realized the power of using that in the classroom. Because right away, I got questions about the course. I got things that were maybe just a little bit confusing, things that maybe need a little bit more clarification or things were just outright wrong and the points didn't add up and things like that. So I would say just as a practice, something that I've learned is be very open to student input and the value of like sharing the construction of your course as you go. It doesn't have to be one size fits all. And I think that's positive because not every student is going to be exactly the same and not every educator is going to be teaching the same content in a lot of courses that they might be going through. So be open to that sort of shared collaboration just outside of the annotations, but in the course itself is helping change and adapt to where they are too. Yeah, outside of like just exposing the student thinking, I think this is a community that has more than others been very open and sharing their ideas and just sharing practices. So I think that's another important thing to mention is the amount of collaboration that you see just within Twitter or just within the hypothesis sort of sphere, if you will, that you can just learn and share and grow from. One thing that I find very overwhelming is trying to synchronously annotate with more than like two people. I did that once, but as a participant and other it just, I can't focus. And I mean, it's sort of like in Zoom too, you're like, oh, this chat's going on. So I guess if you're thinking about doing synchronous annotation, one strategy that I found you worked well was to sign like one group annotate one thing and another group annotate another and then swap. But that is just like a social annotation 101 Charles thing. I don't know if others feel, I just I don't like a lot of people annotating it once I feel like I don't know what to focus on. Hi, because I've had student feedback that it was really good, but I had what I did was I had, it was a synchronous class, I had 18 people and they went with a partner into one breakout room, and we're discussing and annotating together. But everybody was on the same document, but they were also able to sort of chat with a person in their breakout room. And they were very positive about it. But again, I think it was more of a checking and connecting. So they really were familiar. They had a lot of background knowledge. And I think that helped. Then it was more of a conversation. And they told me that they really liked being and it was like, I think pair share kind of a thing as best as I've figured out on zoom because it's zoom has been frustrating. But they did enjoy it in that place. But I haven't used it synchronously, other than them that one time. You know, this is so wonderful to show your reflections and lessons learned. So first of all, just thanks for being both like very transparent and almost vulnerable about our practices as teacher educators. And it strikes me that it may be useful to remind again, anyone who is now or will be watching this webinar that actually reflecting on teaching practice is pretty rare. If I might say so myself, and particularly in higher ed, I don't mean to give higher to bad name or speak fully of my own educator colleagues writ large, but it's actually seldom for educators to reflect both critically, but also kind of creatively on their own teaching practices. And so to hear, for example, you know, the enthusiasm around a, you know, a genre like social annotation, and then more specifically a tour like hypothesis, and say, yeah, I want to use this, and it's just going to be great. I'm going to do all these things with it. But then to hear again, as you said a few moments ago, I said to say, well, hold on a second here. This is a very flexible kind of repertoire of literacy practices. And it can be used in a whole variety of ways. And it can, again, align with certain objectives in particularly generative ways. And it may also not be useful, perhaps under certain circumstances. Actually, Charles, I actually really agree with you. Sometimes I find it overwhelming to have all of these, you know, kinds of, to actually see so much of other people's thinking so quickly. I love the kind of asynchronous rhythms that slowly unfold as I may be reading a densely saturated annotated text. Again, I just think this is a really helpful reminder for educators and specifically teacher educators to just remind us all to think again, critically and creatively about how we choose to pick up and make use of a particularly generative social practice like social annotation. I'm going to stop rambling because y'all know I can just keep going. I think kind of at the point where I'm trying to keep an eye on the chat here, there's a lot of really interesting conversation and questions that are surfacing. So I'm going to step back again. And I think that on the tech side of things, we're going to have some folks step forward and ask some questions of everyone. Hey, greetings. I've been Lorke in the background on chat. I'm Nate Angel from Hypothesis. And we have been having a vibrant discussion there in chat. And there are some questions that really surface, including one from Anthony Dunn that I thought was particularly interesting. Anthony, did you want me to? Yeah, so I'm going to actually, he says he's willing to come on on screen here. So I have pressed your button that makes that allows you to talk. And if you want to come on video too, I can promote you to be a panelist. Sure. Go ahead. Think that did it. Can you hear me? Yeah, we can definitely hear you, Anthony. Awesome. Well, thanks for fielding my question. So I've used Hypothesis on it. Oops, sorry. Right as Anthony was talking, I hit the promote to panelist button. Anthony, right when you were talking, I hit the promote to panelist button. You missed the first part of it. So if you want to start over. Sure. Yeah. So I've used Hypothesis just a little bit right before the pandemic hit while we were in class. So new to it as in using it as a teaching tool. I teach history at Pitt Community College in North Carolina. First year students. My real question about this is because as we're all kind of building our online classes and really more and more trying to make them very valuable experiences rather than you know, man, like we're really starting to hit online instruction at a very elevated level now, right? I mean, over the last decade. So we're all working hard to get our quality matters certifications and all of these different things. And one of the things is that I've been struggling for a long time with is how to facilitate valuable learner to learner experience in an online model. And I completely abandoned discussion boards. I've abandoned tests. Like I mean, I use my classes all written, very instructor student mentor guided things, but I want to facilitate learner to learner instruction. I do like I really want it to. And I think Hypothesis could be a valuable tool. The limitation and Lysandra mentioned this was in a discussion forum. Sometimes it's very superficial. You know, we're all very busy. They're very young students in their first year of college. And it's like, I got to do this post. I got to respond to two people. And you're trying to get a robust discussion. How do my question ultimately to the panelists is, how do you facilitate a deep discussion? Or maybe some tips, pointers, challenges, pitfalls in Hypothesis that social annotation to avoid some of that kind of like, well, just annotate two things, reply to two people and get that kind of minimal discussion. I think modeling is a big part of it. And my kind of plan is to drop little nugget annotations that are preloaded as examples. But still, what are your kind of thoughts on avoiding that? Or we're dealing with those challenges? And thank you very much. Yeah, I'd be happy to start if you all don't mind. Thank you for the question, Anthony. And I think like this is true of discussions, it's probably true of annotations as well, is setting requirements for it. It feels false because that's not what happens in the real world. If you were to pick up a book that has been annotated by someone else, you're not going to like only do the thing, two things, you're going to do all of the things that you like and appreciate. So I would say start with the instructions, start with, you know, I encourage you, I invite you, I, yeah, like basically it's a very encouraging, it's a very open practice. It shouldn't be sort of transactional. It shouldn't be like, you know, do these two things and you get a grade. It's more of like the quality and engaging in the process. So you mentioned like learner, I'm sorry, student to student interaction. I actually see this also as like a learner to content, which is rare to get in a lot of different tools. So yeah, I would start with just being positive about the instructions, framing it in a certain way. And then when you mentioned modeling, I try to be as positive as possible and as excited about contributions as I can. And if it's possible, maybe it's not totally authentic or realistic to do, but I try to hit as many people as possible to basically catch them doing something good, catch them doing the thing that I would love to see and that hopefully helps spur the discussion more. Yeah, that I think building on what Matt just said. What I found in my online asynchronous courses is I have them in a home team across the whole semester. So they are really a small group of like six that really get to know each other. Some of the activities that they have to do are because it's say my teaching reading first for a special ed course, they have to do some practice teaching each other, do some reflections. The annotation pieces are part of it, but it's not every single module's kind of application activity. So there's variety. And I found a couple of sort of short enough, but dense enough pieces that talk about the science of reading that they can keep coming back to. So it's sort of like here's your beginning thoughts about this. Okay, now you've done these other modules, you've really got more background information. What do you think about this now? Now you've practiced this teaching together. What do you think about this again? So they keep coming back to it, but they're with the same kind of group. And by building that as like the discussion is not about your grade, it's about deepening your learning and your students learning. And so they keep coming back to it as a way. And there's, there are students that maybe would do more posts. If I had, you have to do these and at least respond to three, but they wouldn't be as deep. So there's, you know, there's still some people that are probably not getting as much out of it, but the people who are really invested in it are getting more out of it because they, I've gotten them to buy into this is helping your learning, helping your peers and they keep, but also having the variety so that the annotation is in every single module. They've seen to come around quite a bit about that, but it takes some community building at the beginning and they, and then requiring them to do things offline with each other and then come back. I mean, it takes work. And the other thing that I've been doing in Canvas that I love with the hypothesis annotation is every once in a while, I respond via video. So Canvas has that in the, in the speed grader where I can say, oh, Matt, that comment that you said, and somehow I think just as he said, it's Matt, it's really important to recognize what they're doing well to give that really personable video feedback, even though they're annotating and it's a text base. They love getting that they feel heard that way. And then you can see like even an increase in their participation again. So it takes a lot. It's a lot. Online teaching is a lot. The only little things I would add, I guess, are one is to just give folks choice. So you may have types of prompts and they may be specific to the text. It may be something, you know, connect this to your own life connected to something that we talked about previously in the course and another course rather than that mandatory, you know, identify the thesis and like the evidence, whatever it might be. I think there's also really touched on this, but social annotation doesn't just need to be text based. Like students can respond with a meme or, you know, use hyperlink. So there's like a really, there's a power in the multimodal nature of social annotation that I can, I think can also sort of add to the conversation that's happening. I think it would be hilarious and amazing to see like an annotated just with memes or, you know, like just with GIFs. Like I would love to see that. So yeah, that's what I got. GIF only conversations. I love it. I think we may have a few more questions perhaps. Yeah. Well, I mean, you guys have started to touch on this already, but there's been a little bit of conversation around grading and motivation really in the chat as well. And I mean, I know you guys have started to already kind of touch on that. But have you found like through the use of grading or rubrics or other kinds of more structured scaffolding for motivation, if you will, that that's like an effective practice? I know that you've already spoken a little bit to some of the more informal practices. How does assessment fit in? So teaching is tough and teaching online is even more difficult. Teaching during a pandemic is even harder still. So what I've had to tell myself is focus on the things that matter. And to me, the act of annotating the text doesn't matter as much as let's say, you know, the culminating activity, the thing that is going to showcase multiple skills, multiple pieces of knowledge that they have to sort of synthesize and put together. They're going to show what they know in that activity. So I tend to stay away from providing a grade on the annotation itself, knowing that, you know, their thoughts are going to come out and that that them doing it or not doing it is going to show later on. So that's an effort for me to reduce the amount of grading for one. But then also it kind of frees people up to I think personally engage more authentically and not have that sort of transactional I'm going to do this many posts or I'm going to reply to this many people that kind of removes that barrier at least hypothetically. So I think there's a way that you could ask students to reflect on their growth as an annotator as a reader over time in a course in which they have to return to their annotations and put them in conversation with one another and even with other students. I think that type of reflection is probably I well I yeah it's going to be a more a better sort of window into their own thinking and growth for you both for the student and for for you rather than you reading you know 50 annotations. I don't think that's a good use of time. So I think there are ways for stepping back and taking a look at growth over time and in which the students are using their annotations as evidence or even encouraging them to use one another's annotations in a paper or in a presentation or things like that where like the annotations I think there's a question from Chris maybe about like where how else are the annotations I can return back to them how can you make annotations live beyond just that text and I think there are ways in which you can encourage students to I'm thinking of one another's as you know as scholars who are you know drawing upon the the sort of collective knowledge that's generated so it's not just you know annotate this and move on but how can those annotations live on throughout the course. I was just going to say I don't grade them either it's but they do have to kind of at the end of the semester submit kind of a professionalism self assessment and that and all the discussion threads and things are if I use the discussion threads or other kind of activities are included in that but it's more trying to get them to see this is I think like Matt mentioned there's this other assessment over here this is going to help you prepare for that and so it's not graded individually and the students it doesn't seem to matter whether you grade it or not at least my students here so I'm lucky that way they there are always a few students that are your pulling teeth to try to get them to be involved and others that are super involved and so I don't grade the those kind of activities. Yeah I'll say actually I'm thrilled to hear from so many teacher educators that that that actually not grade any annotations is a useful means of an encouraging collective thinking for then other types of assignments for example that that that may actually be graded. I will just also you know echo that when I do work with educators you know in a more formal teacher education context like the class I'll do a kind of similarly reflective assignment at the very end of the semester where I'll say because again I think these are all digital artifacts these can be easily linked and extracted you know show me 10 threads for example or a handful of threads that you contributed to or again some student or again a pre-service in-service teacher is having exchanges with their peer cohort and then comment upon this thread and again a very kind of you know meta-reflective way how did this contribute to our courses understanding of or our courses of learning about some particular topic and I'll do that during a week or a cycle of learning perhaps when there are no new readings but it encourages again educators to return to that social activity and reflect upon a kind of collective learning experience and how that was valuable. I know that we're just budding up on our time here and so I just want to say briefly how thankful I am that we were able to have Lysandra, Matt, and Charles join us. I know that there are a few more kind of like formal housekeeping notes that I think Franny wants to throw into the mix but I just first of all want to thank the three of them again and thank everybody who's been able to to join in the webinar so far but again Franny let us know what else is going on. Well actually I'm just going to echo what you said which is we are past our the time when we normally end but this is such a great discussion and if you all can stay and go on for a bit and if attendees can stay great and if anyone has to leave that's okay too but I mean I'd like to keep the discussion going and keep the recording going. You know there's a side of me that almost wants to bring there's one of the little helpers that Charles warned us about. This is Eleanor. Oh hey Eleanor. Greetings. Hi Eleanor. Waved Eleanor everyone. That's such a great name. I was just thinking I just saw a really so anybody who needs to leave including the panelists if you need to take off no no shame at all feel free to just disappear but you know there's been a lot of vibrant discussion in the text and a lot of it has actually come from Rosario who I'm really pleased to have here because I know she's been doing a lot of great work down in Mexico on social annotation and I'm wondering Rosario would you be would you be open to um un-miking and coming on stage here to uh to uh kind of emphasize a little bit of what you've been saying in the chat. It's really nice to be with you. I wanted just to share the things that I've been working with hypothesis since um two years ago when I found it through Twitter and I just started to I don't know to to start to look how it works and then I just started to use it with my students here in in in Mexico but at the very beginning I had a lot of problems because there aren't any or very few information of this tool in Spanish then because of that I started to make some resources in Spanish uh just to help my students. Then I I recorded um a tutorial with the things that I I realized because this is the first time that I'm uh I don't know talking with the people who who are related with this tool and then I either defy some ways and then I I made this tutorial in Spanish and it was it was so fun because there were a lot of professors or in here in Mexico and in Latin America that they asked me to to teach them how to use hypotheses that I'm not an expert on that but you know I started to find and but my my students really love this one and the the thing that we um that we have been thinking here in in in Latin America is that it's a shame that there's a very few information in Spanish of this because there are a big community that are interested in in use it and and then for me and for my for for there we are I don't know four or five professors that we are using this and and the thing that we we started to do is you know because of the pandemic it's a very difficult for the for the students to go to the library because no it is so dangerous then the thing that we started to do was to to um then open an open and open group in Sotero no and all the the bibliography we put it there and then my students the thing that they look in the in the open group group of Sotero and then they they link the information all of that in open access because it's very very difficult um because probably you can find this information in um in a subscription journal but no not all the students can reach that information probably this is a problem and then but my students love it and then they just started to tweet and to look for the authors in Twitter but there there are very few authors that answer the comments or the annotations I don't know probably because they don't know what is it you know and uh and the other problem that we have faced is that in my university we use the teams Microsoft a learning management system and I really don't know how to link the the teams uh platforms to hypothesis and thank you very much for for let me talk with my very bad English oh no your English is is great um and I'm I was just so excited to see you here because you really have been a super big um proponent and and evangelist for uh I'm a big fan of hypothesis so you're a grand fan of hypothesis yes um and especially on Twitter and Twitter does seem to be one of the big uh themes here like so many people uh seem to have come across this via Twitter um so thank you thank you mostly first of all for all the work you've been doing in Spanish um and just um I'll just say that um it is one of hypothesis's goals to um uh you know make the resource completely available in other languages but I will point out that the annotation layer as it exists now um is fully language capable even different character sets right so when even though the interface is in English when you have people annotate as I'm sure Rosario has uh experience the annotations themselves can be uh produced in any language um including even um right to left languages and things like that so um there's a lot of flexibility in the annotation framework itself to do that and we can talk about the Microsoft team stuff offline because that's a really specific thing um I want to throw it back to uh Raimi in case there was something else just as the moderator that you wanted to make sure we uh we got across there no I just I think that the kind of the last point I'd like to make um it's just an appreciation for the enthusiasm that educators have about this as a social practice that is useful for learning um you know right now and this echoes a number of comments that have been made you know we are teaching and learning in a social and dare I say also kind of political context that no one alive has ever experienced before um and the circumstances that have been buffeting education whether we're in Mexico like Rosario or we're online wherever we happen to be um educators and parents as we just you know saw some some some little little ones running through the room and my little one might run through here at some point you know we're all just teaching and learning in such incredibly challenging circumstances so to find rewarding and meaningful opportunities to connect with other educators to connect their students and to do so through a digital and online format I just find to be particularly inspiring again in this particular moment I also just want to say without getting into you know too much detail that there are as I think many on this webinar either now or watching this will know that there are many examples that we can point to of particular technologies actual tools or organizations that build tools that are not let's say respecting the the kind of well-being of educators and students in a variety of ways I'm not going to point fingers or specific examples but I think that we could all kind of dig out our you know our our favorite target what is all just to say that again hearing the enthusiasm that educators have again for in this case a particular organization and tool that is very respectful of student privacy for example that in particularly in the case of my work as a scholar in residence is approaching research from a very strong ethically oriented standpoint and to then speak with educators who I believe are making instructional decisions I think again we heard today from from Lysandra and Matt and Charles as well as those who are asking questions you know these are all questions about instruction that is at heart respectful this is about teaching and learning that at its core is really about supporting other educators and then having those educators support their students in a way that really honors not only the dignity but also just the current circumstances of what we're all going through right now and it just makes me very appreciative to be in conversation with educators some of whom I'm meeting for the very first time today who are so attuned to the moment and who are also aware that this particular community of practitioners and this particular genre again of literacy practices is in alignment with this very again ethical equity oriented and respectful approach to teaching and learning and doing so right now that is just for me very heartening and that's that's what I wanted to say I have to run at the top of the hour so I'm going to just kind of leave it there but just extend again my thanks to Lysandra and to Matt and to Charles for just being such stellar contributors sharing their wisdom and experience with us and so much to again the team at Hypothesis for bringing us all together today thank thanks everybody thanks everybody thank you thank you all thanks such a great discussion everybody I want to give our panelists a chance to say goodbye at this point Rami why don't you go first since you're gonna have to everyone thanks again I really appreciate it I mean goodbye everyone I hope you have a lovely day or evening wherever you are thanks for coming yes awesome it was very nice to be here and thank you very much for the invitation and have a wonderful day everything that Rami said and bit by bit change the world help each other out we'll get through everything well thank you so much those are such nice heartfelt words this concludes our show come back next time I'm not sure what the next date is going to be but we'll let you know as soon as we can everyone out there in the community and this recording will be available later today or Monday so I just again thank you for coming to Liquid Margins and we'll see you all next time