 All right. Hello and welcome to this session on live streaming editing. I'm Jan Einly or user Einly and I have a panel with me today who's hopefully going to do most of the talking and I'll just get us started here. So let's do a brief round of introduction and please tell me, like, who you are and what your main topic of streaming, like, what are your streams about? And let's start with you, Sandra. Oh, yeah. Hi. Hi, everyone. So my name is Sandra Hobsonsak on Wikipedia or Wikipedia. And I've been streaming, actually, I haven't been streaming that much this year, but previously I've been streaming mostly a few live edit sessions for both Wikipedia and Wikisource. So doing those platforms. But also we've been streaming a few panel talks regarding different topics around Wikimedia. And also we, I'm saying we because I've been streaming mostly together with a friend of mine. And we did a live session also from our Wikipedia camp last summer, which was really fun. So that was more of, I don't know, like almost talk show like with both me and the other organizers, but also camp members who were very new to Wikipedia. So that was fun. Yes. Can I hand over to Rebecca? Yes, of course. Thank you very much. Hi, everyone. I'm Rebecca O'Neill and I'm based in Ireland. So I started live streaming during the pandemic when all in-person events went away very quickly. And I did it for about two years throughout it, much like Sandra has kind of dropped off a little bit as I think not as many people are accessible to stay at home. You know, they don't have lots of time to watch many kind of long form streams. But a lot of mine were quite instructive. They were aimed at people who were interested in how editors work and how they are attracted to particular topics, how they go about editing an article, where they find sources. But oftentimes I found it was other editors like Jan or Nicholas or Liam would often keep me company, which was great. And I did one or two, I suppose very long form streams, where it was a bit of a challenge to try and edit as many articles as possible, one of which I did for charity, which was great fun. Hi, my name is Mahir. I go by user Mahir256 on wikidata and then golly wiki source. My streams, which I started last summer, sort of in them, because I was able to allocate some time each week to do so, were had a very specific focus, which is essentially to first to promote the idea of editing a specific subfield of wiki data, which are lexemes, basically items for words, if you will, and more specifically to use those items for words to try to generate sentences the way that we might expect for something like abstract Wikipedia. The idea being that we have this objective of trying to generate text using wiki data items and lexemes. Let's try to make that possible. That's the thing that I was trying to showcase on my streams. It has been about a mother since I've last streamed, but ordinarily this would be a more regular thing. But yes, that is my main focus with my streams. All right. And just quickly for myself, I've been mostly streaming, editing wiki data, me and user Abbenitiotta, Albin Larsson, or a bit over a hundred streams. So starting to get into some sort of rhythm there, but we have a summer vacation right now. You all alluded a little bit to it, but sort of like what got you started in actually going from just editing to press the record and stream button go live to get it go out there. And let's take the other way around. Let's start with you, Mehir. Sure. So first, I guess the motivation for my starting to stream is an extension of this idea of trying to make something very abstract or I think it is abstract Wikipedia after all, but making that a bit more tangible and more concrete as far as what it is we can try to make accomplish. And it was interesting from the end result, I think was that these streams not only were productive from the standpoint of me as someone who's trying to program these things to happen, but if I'm targeting a language of someone, the language of someone in the audience, like the native language of someone who's watching the stream, then it's even more inspiring for them, I think. And then that's the sort of contribution that I wanted to encourage, which I don't think just simply editing would do. So the actual live demonstration of something as revolutionary as what I was working on, I think would have been more impactful than just saying, okay, after the fact, this is what was done. Maybe Rebecca has other ideas as to what gets them into streaming. Well, it's more about what I'm able to do and wiki data and that sort of thing. I am, I suppose, a user light when it comes to things like that. But I suppose initially I was quite structured in the first 12 that I did were very much mirrored what I would do in a series of workshops. So I actually archived those 12. I downloaded them from Twitch and put them up on the Wikimedia Community Ireland YouTube. So it was very much start here, how you create an account, how you might find an easy article to find a way in, so like a stub. An awful lot of what I, because it mirrored, I suppose, a lot of the work that I do within education. I kind of went for Irish topics, so places, biographies, historical biographies, but then I would do historical biography, creating one from scratch, and then do a contemporary person to show how you would approach writing a biography of a living person. So it was quite, it was once I got to the 12, I was like, okay, what now? So at that point, they became a little bit looser. And it was as people, mostly on Twitter as was, requesting, how do you go about doing X? How do you approach this type of article? So I would look to, I would do very simple things, like if it was Wiki Loves Earth or Wiki Loves Monuments, I would show people how to use the platform and I would pin that small amount of the stream. So it was quite functional, I suppose, for me. But then when I wasn't archiving them or thinking about, okay, I'm going to put this out as a short form video somewhere, it was just a little bit of a stream of consciousness, and me just editing. And that was, you know, depending on how many people were watching, it could get a little bit kind of silly. They probably realized that I do an awful lot of dark muttering to myself when I'm editing Wikipedia. And then I would do a little bit of, and this is how you go about finding an image, or I found this image and this brought me to this article, or, you know, I was eating a certain food and I realized the article was terrible. So it was a lot more kind of as I move around Wikipedia as an individual, rather than the project coordinator of Wikipedia Community Ireland, Sandra. Yeah, so I got into streaming through gaming, actually, we have referred to that being maybe more common of a topic. And then because I, so I started editing on Wikipedia through, actually, so I mentioned the Wikipedia camp. So I started by by chance, finding like an invitation to like, do you want to come, you know, learn how to edit on Wikipedia? And of course I did, because I was like, I knew that it was possible. I just didn't know how. And so I went to that camp, I then from that year on became part of that was the first time the camp was held. And it was a camp directed at people who identify as women because of the shortage of people who identify as women editing on Wikipedia. And then I became part of organizing that together with one of the organizers from that year. So a lot of my, how I approach Wikipedia, I'm also kind of an editor light, but I do a lot of reaching out and helping others sort of get over the threshold from never having dared to edit to trying to edit. And that's part of what I brought with me to streaming, because as you mentioned, Rebecca, I also got into it during the pandemic. And when the opportunities to be there doing like, oh, my goodness, now I lost the word for skrives to gain English. Yeah, so I'm basically Sweden. I forgot to mention that. So when that opportunity disappeared, and I am registered as like a helper or father on Swedish Wikipedia, but I noticed like how much more difficult it is to answer certain questions in text, because people will ask you and it's just more nuanced than saying do this or do that. And I find that when you have a streaming situation, even though the other people are asking you things in text, you can present an answer that becomes way more nuanced and wider and broader. And you can then also explain, because one thing I've noticed, going to answer questions in different scenarios is that while it is easy to edit, and I do try to mention that, what can be difficult are the things that are easy are usually the things that people are most afraid of, which have to do in the technology, like just push the button, write the things. Those are the things that people tend to be scared of. But what's usually the most difficult is what belongs here? How do I solve this so that I stay neutral? Like what are the demands on Wikipedia or even Wikisource, because we have like a huge set of agreements on how do we treat these platforms. And those are the things that are difficult to reply to when it comes to someone asking you a question, where they sort of jump in and go, the first question is like, how do I create a whole new article for this little YouTuber? And you go, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, time out, time out. Let me now direct you to this, this, this, this, this, and this. And that became so much easier in a streaming situation. So my aims with streaming were the same as my aims, usually when I'm part of different initiatives, other initiatives on having to do with Wikipedia, is to reach out to those who are just getting started and to help them have a good first, like starting experience with Wikipedia or Wikisource or yeah, Wikidata. That's great. John, how do you also? Well, it was also during the pandemic. So it was with the Wikipedia weekly live stream and then sort of that kicked off something else as well, wanting to do something with Wikidata, because I'm really fascinated by Wikidata as a project. So that's where it sort of got going. I was also already doing the Swedish Wikipedia podcast. And I was thinking about doing that recorded as a live stream as well. We were using software to record it remotely already. So just turning into that to be public was also a small step. I see that we have a question in the chat here. I'm going to come back to you, Lucy, because we were all onto something, all three of you here. And that was like with what you got you started was also possibly something that was feeling rewarding or something that you achieved. Do you have any like concrete examples of like during a stream that you felt something or oh, here I really struck on something that I particularly couldn't have made just on Wiki in text. And feel free anyone who comes up with the first here. Well, maybe I could just partly reiterate. So both having those kinds of sessions where someone can ask you something and you can provide a response that is more nuanced, but also something that we have done that I thought was very rewarding is just and this isn't edit related. It's more to do with the threshold that I mentioned for people to get into to editing. We did a couple of panels talking about where we had like a friend who is had never edited on Wikipedia, and we had her be a guest and ask questions that you know, like as a person who has never has never edited, what is it that's sort of what would you like to know to be able to get started? And and that then could also include the chat and maybe also listen. It can help the chat also to start thinking of like what is actually stopping me if I've never edited. What is it that's that's sort of scaring me or that's hindering me. So as with all conversations, they can lead to more thoughts than, you know, just if you just try to summarize something in text yourself, trying to get into the mindset of who was I, what hindered me. No, no, if you don't mind. Yeah, I guess if you're asking about like any specific, you know, tangible outputs, outcomes from rewards, if you will, I'd say that those are largely dependent on the audience that I have during a particular stream. And, see, Jan is someone who's been part of these audiences, you know, very well that whenever I'm able to have a nice conversation about various aspects of the language that you speak, it's it's it's morning. I mean, first of all, it's rewarding to me as far as my understanding of the knowledge of the language goes and how that could be applied in other ways. But also when developing the software that to generate sentences with the leg seems, there ends up being a lot more progress on the languages of those audience members. So if they go back to the repositories and they see the code that I've tried to document to the best of my ability, they it tends to be a lot better for those languages, because of the amount of time that's been spent on stream working on that there's obviously going to be improvement outside of them. But I think just the overall development of particular languages ability to generate senses is a nice indicator of how much of a reward has been got from having very good audience members in that respect. Jump in then. I suppose I had kind of two different types of rewards. Some of them were personal and some of them were related to the job. So with the job, it was slightly more straightforward as people would be on Twitter or Facebook, and they would come across the link to the the live stream. And, you know, they would have perhaps followed with community Ireland or been aware of us, but perhaps didn't necessarily, they didn't have full confidence of what like a virtual workshop would be like or what I'm like as a facilitator. So I don't know whether the streams helped or hindered, but we definitely got some people who then contacted me kind of saying, oh, I saw your stream and obviously I made sense. And they're like, you know, you could do a workshop with us. So there was a bit of that sort of soft connections that were made. But then in 2020, which is so far ago that I've kind of forgotten, I did a whole year of, oh, what's it called now? Well, 100 wiki days, but I did 3366 because it was a leap year. Of course I chose a leap year. So I was writing an article every day on Wikipedia anyway, creating a new one. So I found that I mixed up my list an awful lot because it turns out I pick very repetitive subjects if I'm left to my own devices and probably wouldn't be very exciting for people to watch. But then I started getting kind of suggestions from fellow Wikimedians who would be like, oh, this exists on Swedish or this exists in French. Would you think about translating it into English? And I was able to then use my position of privilege. I'm not an admin or anything like that, but I'm a, I suppose a trusted editor in that when I create an article, I have had a very good track, you know, nothing has ever been deleted on me has only ever been merged. So I was able to leverage that. And it also led to me being able to interact with initiatives like Black Lives Matters, where that was a very new wiki project on English and it was facing not an awful lot of pushback, but an amount of pushback. And I was able to support some of the fellow editors who were writing about international topics, but then create a lot of the Irish topics related to it. And those still persist. So that's probably the best legacy I would say from that first year. All right, then let's get to Lucy's question here. Did you all have followings on social statistics that you took into your streams or perhaps I can even expand on it? Like where are your viewers coming from? This is just a really short answer, which is that I do most of my advertising on telegrams. So there are telegram groups for wiki data and specifically for lexicographical data and after Wikipedia, that's where most of my viewership comes from. I do not typically advertise this on my regular profiles. It's usually just in telegram. For me and it was, yeah, we since both me and my friend, we have started through gaming, then yes, we did advertising since also most of what we do was directed at very new people, hopefully, well, not hopefully, but mainly people who haven't edited at all. Then yes, we're trying to reach people meant using other other channels as well. Yeah, I was definitely the same Twitter as as it was, and slightly more amenable to that sort of stuff, maybe three years ago. I didn't use Facebook quite as much because, you know, the audience on Facebook is generally, you know, your family and very close friends, and they're not necessarily going to become dyed in the wool wikipedia. If they haven't done it by now after a decade of me being an active wikipedia, it's probably not going to happen at this point. But I would also, I didn't do much gaming streaming, but that would be a huge portion of my Venn diagram of contacts on Twitter in particular. So and I would know quite a number of people involved in say local sci-fi conventions. So I was able to kind of, there were people who were already immersed, you know, watching out for interesting or different Twitch streams that were coming up to fill in their lunchtime. So I know an awful lot of like, acquaintances more than close friends started watching on their lunch break because I would often do it at one o'clock Irish time. And it meant that they were just, you know, a lot of people would be like, I have you on my phone, you know, you're on my kitchen counter while I'm... So there was a little bit of just kind of, I suppose me being, I won't say background noise, but I suppose being an accompaniment to, as they kind of tried to mix up and make their days a little less lonely in the depths of the lockdowns. And similar for me, I did not have a lot of socials. It's mostly from the Wikimedia channels that my viewers come from, like different kinds. I see your follow-up question, Michel, but I'm just first going to go to the Lucy's second question here, because I think that sort of comes to the core of this. What is the benefit of doing live streaming rather than recording something and then uploading it? Why are you doing live streaming instead of that? I think we can have different reasons for doing that. So it would be very interesting to see if we are all aligned or not. I'm like, I can jump on this. Yes, let's go. Yeah. So for me, it's mostly to do with both the connection, like being able to at any point in time swerve in the subject to what is actually asked. Instead of like, if you want to do a video, you have to plan it, and then it becomes what you've sort of figured out in your head is needed. Like, this is a structure. This is what I'm going to talk about. And this is how I will sort of, this is what I expect people will ask. But when you do a live editing, you can very much go with the flow of like, who's here right now? What do they want to know? And so it really is two completely different things in my mind. And I like the communication, the conversation, the knowing that if someone asks a question and I respond to that, I've actually been helpful. So yeah, different. But I have to say, also, I love when people do videos and upload videos, when you're looking for a response or reply to something, and someone's made like a minute and a half long video, where you can go in, just get the answer. That's brilliant. Love the people who do that. Will I jump in? For me, it was to show how messy it can be as an individual editor, because I think the problem that we suffer from sometimes with very streamlined videos is you're like, you find an article and you follow these steps and look, hey, press toe at the end, look at this immaculate, beautiful, expanded article or whatever it is that you've done, whereas one that sticks out in my mind was an article about an Irish guy called Eric Cross, Brackets Writer, because there's a number of Eric Crosses in the world. And I thought he was a straightforward Irish writer. I thought, you know, this will take me 20 minutes, half an hour. I have an entry from the dictionary of Irish biography. This is fine. It turns out, the man was a polymath and did all sorts of different things. And it was the one where I got, there was a couple of people from the OpenStreetMap community in Ireland watching it, and they were just laughing at me because I kept going, what? How is he doing another thing? He like, he did during the war, like he started making shoes. No, he started making knitting needles out of spokes from bicycle wheels. And I was like, I can't cope with this, man. And it just showed you that I suppose that even editors who are, you know, creating an article a day or have, you know, several hundred articles in English language Wikipedia can still get stumped or confounded. Or think that you have, oh, I have this fantastic citation. And then you realize, oh, actually, this, this isn't telling me what I wanted to tell me and I need to go out and find more. So, and I think those are the most enjoyable stream for people kind of, you know, for people actually just watching, as we say in English, like how this usage is made, that it's not this beautiful kind of smooth workflow all of the time. No, I have to agree with what you said about just the messiness of it all. And I think, honestly, the decision-making process, in my case, in terms of how to model a specific phenomenon in terms of like lexicographic information, because a lot of this is largely unexplored in terms of how do we model lexemes to generate sentences. And very often, you know, I wouldn't call it vacillation, but there'd often be times where I would openly debate to myself, and I guess to the audience, whether I should do things one way or the other. And, you know, that sort of messiness is obviously something that I think more people, a lot of people can relate to as those who edit wiki data for themselves, and given the lack of precedent for modeling certain things, which is, on its own, in some ways, a good thing, because, you know, if everything was set in stone as a pre-made video might indicate to someone, then that ends up restricting, you know, the possibilities that can be introduced and exploited for later on. And that increased possibility is something that we want to promote. And I think the open format of a live stream is good for that in way that the recording isn't necessarily. I feel so much empathy with you all and relate to everything what you say, because I've done all of those things and felt all of those things, especially the messiness. Anyone who's seen us edit wiki data know that, like, modeling is hard, and having a few people discuss it, meanwhile you're doing it, is super helpful. Even if there's no one in chat just being with my co-host Albin, talking about how do you think we should do this and search, it's so beneficial. I would often stress, you know, this is how I do it. You know, this is my methodology. Other editors might have, you know, experienced me vary, which is rather important. And this is a little bit harder on wiki data, because we try to get to some sort of, like, common data model. So it's also a lot of researching, like, how have other people been doing this before? Because that helps in querying afterwards if everyone did the same. But sometimes you're the first in the field, because wiki data, even if it's 11 years old, is still very young in what types of content we have in there. There's also something I think sometimes there's, I'll go live, because I don't have time to make a streamlined video, like the old quote, like, sorry, I wrote this long letter because I didn't have time to write a short one. You go out and you stream for half an hour, something that perhaps would be a three minute slick video, but coming up with the actual manuscript for that and then edit it would take even longer time. So that's one of the reasons. You raised a point that I wanted to make, but I failed to make it. Actually, sort of meta here is that there's obviously a lot of things that I would want to make a point of bringing up in the middle of the stream, but I would never think to do it in a planned fashion. Like that's not something that I would think of it while I was just writing out a script and recording it. But those come up organically and they may need to like a few minutes of a tangent afterward, but they were important enough to have come up in the first place. So, and the live streaming format definitely promotes that. I agree 100%. The live streaming doesn't require that very tight structure. And like you said, also the cutting, the editing. I think that sometimes people might not be aware how much work goes into doing that sort of very tight video. But I was thinking about something that Rebecca said, and now I forgot it. Oh, yeah, yeah. But yes, because you started the whole stream of consciousness thing and also the messiness. And that's also something that I think is very helpful when trying to reach new people because something I realize is often when people want to get started, they tend to think that the only thing that sort of exists is to create new articles. So they come in and they go like, I want to create a new article about this person. How do I do that? And then it's very helpful to be able to direct someone towards watching someone create a new article in, you know, live, not taking out the messy bits because that makes it so much more easy to explain why this might not be the best way to get started because you will face so many different things. Try instead like looking into different parts of what you do on Wikipedia and try doing those a few times. And I think that's so much easier when you direct someone towards actually following someone very experienced creating a new article that makes it so much easier to explain why I'm not trying to put you down. I'm not trying to say that this is very difficult and that you will be able to do it. I'm just saying it might be easier to break it down into little pieces and start like how do I add sources? What kinds of sources are good? Like just seeing, because that can be messy enough. Just trying to find sources to cover what you sort of go, okay, I know this about this person. Yeah, that doesn't matter. Like how do I find a proper source for it? And how do I then add it? And you know, so that becomes very helpful also seeing the messiness to be able to explain why might there be better ways of starting up for someone new. And also to help explain that you're not bad at editing. If it took you like, I don't know, 20 hours to create your first full article from scratch, it didn't exist and now it exists, that is not bad. If you're very new to Wikipedia, that's good. Very true. And we were also almost touching here on the question from Michelle because she was asking, can you elaborate a bit on how you go about preparation, outreach and follow up? And we sort of touched that with like, I don't write full scripts for my things, but I have a general idea of what I want to convey in my stream. And how do you do it? So for the streams that I do, they're typically divided into two parts, the first for two hour streamers or so, the first half being actually editing wiki data and showing the editing interface. And then the second half is actually writing code and going back to wiki data if need be to adjust things so that the code works better. For this first part of, you know, editing wiki data, there's probably gonna be something interesting that I see some place. There's no full planning. There was one stream where I just noticed that the foreign word of the day on the English dictionary was a term used in Norwegian for a track suit used when grilling, and I thought that was a hilarious term. So let's try to use that term in the stream. I did nothing else with that except to say, okay, that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna make this happen. And so the first half of the stream that week was, yes, let's see if we can make this happen in some other language and other languages in general, other words for tracksuits. And then the rest of the stream sort of followed from there as far as trying to get people engaged, like, oh, you speak this language, let's try to make this same term happen in this language in the most meaningful way possible. If something doesn't end up finishing within the two hour time span, then I try to ensure that at the end, especially if I get stuck in the middle of some code block, then I go back to the same channels in which I advertised and post like, okay, this is after some amount of effort, here's what we got. And this happened with a few languages, but not the one that I was doing on stream. So yeah, I'd say that most of the stream that most of my stream is done essentially winging it, if you will. Yeah, I am very much another wingy person and seated at the pants fashion. What I would sometimes do is if I was really stumped, and especially in, you know, kind of towards the end of what I was going to do intensive streaming was at least twice, three times a week. And I started to run out of my own kind of comfort zones. And I was like, hey, you know, what would you like me to see me editing? And I would get some interesting examples of food or customs from different countries as related to Ireland or something like that. And or then I'd look to, as I would do with social media for the affiliate here in Ireland is, is there an anniversary today? Is it a particular? Is it somebody's birthday? Is it a particular historical day? Is it international, you know, a black cat appreciation day or or whatever, whatever silly day is floating around, or I'd see what was trending on that particular day, and see if there was something that interesting that I could fold into it. But generally, the amount of preparation that I had was kind of minimal. I would try and find a few kind of jumping off source material, yes, online resources that I could just very easily flip the screen and say, this is where I'm taking my information from. And mine were kind of slightly more short form. So I would go for sometimes it would just be 20 minutes. Sometimes it would go up to 50 minutes an hour. And it would depend on kind of how the rest of the day was panning out for me. And so I gave myself that flexibility in us. And people then I would get different audiences based on how intensive it was. And also then you get kind of people coming on and dropping off and kind of different peaks and troughs. So it was I think, in some ways, being a slightly more unpredictable probably meant that it wasn't an appointment for people, even if it was a particular day each week. But it meant that they were like, Oh, you know, Rebecca might be doing something. So let's hop on type and type engagement. Yeah, for me, it's also like part of what is very what attracts me to the streaming is that you can keep it very, very much more spontaneous. And so mostly we would just sort of outline what is the topic of the day. So me and Sophie that I'm streaming with. And and we would maybe plan a bit in advance sort of talking about what is it we would like to do? What do we feel would be fun or helpful or useful. But usually, we were also trying to keep the preparations down. Again, being targeting trying to target reaching out to people who are very new, we actually wanted it to be as truthful as possible. Like what do you actually if you just want to start from scratch to not do a lot of work beforehand, and then again, present this sort of polished image of what it actually is like. So so we would keep it at a fairly like minimal level of preparations. And then do most of like, what do you face when you do this? Do that live. It's like, Oh, no, now I need to find this page. Where did I leave that? Oh, wait a minute. I know something about that. Okay, let's look for that. That was also part of that's also part of the fun, I think to to end. And it is instructional for people to see that. So yeah, it's it's not the chef's like, Oh, but I've already done that. Here we go. That has happened to me sometimes because sometimes I'm do very hard queries. And I make sure that I actually know how to do them before. So I have a copy on the second screen. So I can check and sometimes I copy over at everything because I live I mess it up. And I don't I can't find where I mess it up. So that has happened a few time. We're nearing the end here. So I just want to do a quick round here for anyone who's been watching us now and thinking, Hey, maybe I should be screaming. Do you have any like, small tip or encouraging words that you want to send with them that they can think about, like, to get started or something? Something I would say is, like, make sure to make your threshold as low as possible. Like, I when I started streaming, I went for like, what is the minimum viable product here? Like, what do I actually need to get started? Because I think that a lot of people will stop themselves in trying to go like, Oh, well, people streaming, they have all these cool things. And this is happening. And this is like, but you don't need to start with that. Just, just do the basics. Like, you don't even need a starting screen. Like, just an ending screen, just make sure you have one screen. And that you can and like, you don't need the best camera or the best sound, like Mike or whatever, just what do you actually need to get started? If this is something that you would like to actually try? Because otherwise you might get stuck in a preparations and never get started. Rebecca? Hard to agree. That's you can get kind of, you know, I don't have a ring lamp or, you know, I haven't set up an extra mobile phone. It's a nice stream of myself. I liked being slightly fuzzy and out of focus at times. And I did the one thing I invested in was a good microphone. And I think for people who listen to podcasts and things like that, they do appreciate that. But I wouldn't say that you need that straight away. I'd say get into the comfort zone and then think about whether or not you want to invest in something like that. I fully agree regarding, you know, super expensive equipment isn't necessary to start off. And, you know, you should definitely be flexible with what you would consider to be a productive session, for sure. And I'd also say that, you know, don't be afraid to get audience suggestions, whatever they may be. You know, your audience is going to be your best friend for the most part for the duration of the stream. And so, you know, if you are able to tailor your output to that audience, then, you know, all the better for you. Great. And I think our time is up there. So thank you, Sandra, Rebecca, Mahir, for joining this stream. And thank you for everyone in the audience asking questions as well, keeping this live, live streaming. So that's meta, meta, meta almost there. So, all right. Thank you, John. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much, John. Oh, thanks.