 Great, good morning everybody and welcome to day three of Genetic Genealogy Island 2014. It's great to see so many familiar faces in the audience. So it gives me great pleasure to kick off today's lectures with Catherine Borges. Now Catherine is a member of the Southern California Genealogical Society, daughters of the American Revolution and the colonial dames of the 17th century. You'll have to explain what that's all about. She is also director of ISOG and president of the Salida Chamber of Commerce and she comes to us all the way from Northern California. So it gives me great pleasure to open today's lectures with Catherine Borges. Thank you for coming today and thank you for that nice introduction Morris. I've been doing genetic genealogy. Well first actually I started with traditional genealogy about 14 years ago now and then about three years after that I attended a daughters of the American Revolution lecture that was on using DNA for genealogy purposes and to be honest with you the subject matter went as we say over my head and under my feet to completely bypass me. But what I did learn from the speech was that the speaker had tried it and it had worked for her so that made me very proactive in learning more about it. In fact I constantly still do read and learn more about it and there's always new things to learn because it's a very rapidly evolving field. But as you can see today, today's a basics talk and so I will try to speak as basically as I can about using DNA for genealogy testing. So there's the three most important things that you need to know are the types of DNA tests that are available because many people if you're especially you're just starting out they're under the impression that they only have one type of DNA in their body but that's not true you have multiple types of DNA that can be used for genealogy purposes and these types of DNA follow different ancestral paths so that's a very important thing to note too. When I first started out I called up Family Tree DNA and I wanted to know why I couldn't do a Y chromosome test and the poor vice president of the company Max Blankfield was the poor person that answered the phone and he had to explain to me that I didn't have a Y chromosome which I learned in biology in high school but I didn't retain that part and I'm going but I look like my dad so anyways that's very important you know that and then how it can work for you. So to begin the four most popular kinds of DNA tests on the market are Y chromosome tests which are also known as surname testing because especially in places like western Europe the Y chromosomes often handed down with the male surnames there are some exceptions though as you know with clans which I'll talk a little bit about that later and also populations that adopted patriarchal surname patterns much later for instance the Welsh and the Portuguese. The Portuguese did not adopt which my surname is Portuguese did not adopt a patriarchal surname pattern until about 1900 so before that they would take the mother's maiden name or they would take a name of their noble ancestors. They have very good records in Portugal but with the non patriarchal naming pattern it's really difficult to do the genealogy sometimes and then SNP testing it stands for single nucleotide polymorphism some people say SMP I say SNP it's just easier for me and that's the way I first learned to abbreviate it and what that does that confirms your ancestry on just one line your mother's or your father's and I'll talk more about that too and then autosomal DNA testing which is relatively new on the market that tests the DNA from both your parents. So where does the DNA come from we often get questions especially out at the stall even as mainstream as DNA has become is do I have to give blood and fortunately no unless you scrape the inside of your mouth really hard you're not going to produce any blood so it's just a suave saliva but the place where it came the first and that's why the pictures up there is it came from ancient remains so a lot of the first testing that was done was done on ancient remains and you may have heard of some of those cases like Cheddar Man or most recently King Richard the third found under the car park in Leicester so but fortunately for us because most of us are not on any kind of direct path from someone famous who's had their DNA tested we just do it using a simple suave saliva from inside the mouth so for males to begin with I have a chart up here this is the inheritance pattern for the white chromosome so it follows the male line just like the surname along the blue path on back farther and then males also have DNA from their mother that's called mitochondrial DNA and mitochondrial DNA is follows the female line males do not pass it on to their children only females do but you can test for your mother's line which again I'll talk about later and how important it is and then that's just for the white DNA path because I'm going to talk about why DNA testing first so this is we call this a white chromosome tree or white sometimes it's called the white snip tree that's what we call an isog but as you can see this is a screenshot from Family Tree DNA's page and they have add them up in quotes because they have been able to trace DNA back to one man and one woman as far as the time frame goes that constantly changes and also some of it may be attributed to what's called a bottleneck like a mass extinction but as for what we have right now though they can trace it to one man and one woman and then you can find the different branches on the tree where you descend from and this is what it looks like an isog is Morris announced I'm the director of the International Society of Genetic Genealogy and we maintain a tree too we have more branches on our tree than a lot of the companies do we update it further but we also have a stringent criteria there's also a couple of other trees out there on the internet but this one is used a lot and has been cited by a lot of scientific papers so to help give you reference for those of you that are Irish these are the the white DNA from that tree haplogroups that are most common in Ireland so this gives origins and as you can see our one B is the most common one in Ireland and that one is the one that's in Nile of the nine hostages and a couple of the other groups that they study here and the and these are the other ones that are most commonly found here um this is uh one of the ones that's our one B is called M222 and this is a screenshot from Family Tree DNA's MDM22 project which if you test positive for that SNP what's really great about this particular one is they are doing a lot of work on it a lot of work has been coming out we learned at the Family Tree DNA conference last week um on research that's being due to refine down M222 right now what this tells you what it means if you come back M222 is that it means that you are northwest Irish and that's based on a study that was done in 2006 at Trinity University in Dublin and um we referred to the Nile of the nine hostages where they studied Clan O'Neill and found that all these men share in a common white chromosome signature and it started with the M222 but as I said it's also been refined down eventually what we're hoping is that it'll be refined down so much you'll you'll find a place and um of origin and you this actually may be a result of something that you definitely have to go to Daniel Crouch's speech for people in the British house now while you didn't test in Ireland again this is something that can refine down a place by that this kind of work that they're doing um and this is what it looks like on the Family Tree DNA site for if you test positive for M222 um this is a white which when you test with Family Tree DNA they are the only company right now that are doing Y chromosome YSTR testing commercially ancestry was doing it but they stopped doing it last month some of the other companies include Y the Y chromosome helpful group the the deep ancestral origins in their test results but they don't do the STR markers that you need for genealogy purposes so this is a certificate of one of my friends that tested and his ancestry traces to Ulster in the 1700s and um when you look at the certificate right now uh it doesn't you don't derive much meaning from it because you have to take those STRs and be able to compare them to other men with the same results so what what Family Tree DNA has is a system called a DNA project and volunteers like myself and Michael and several other people in the room Morris we volunteer and run these projects we don't get paid to do this the reason we do this is because it helps us it benefits us to be able to do these projects so to be able to correlate the results so for example because my friend tested and he has a paper trail line back to Robert Wissrow of Ulster he helped people that are brick walled in Virginia because they can match to him so like if you have a gap in your paper trail that's how that can help you so you have to be able to correlate the results now my friend is not M222 even though he has Irish origins he actually has what's called Scottsmodel haplotype he's right there in the middle and that was I only had it back when he was 12 markers I made him up great later so um but he has the the Scottsmodel haplotype which is also another one that's very common in Ireland um now to go to go over clans my mother's made a name is McCallum and so one of the projects I set up was the McCallum McCallum Malcolm DNA project and my McCallum ancestor actually originated in Ireland then went to Scotland then America and my line is dotted out if I'm going to get a McCallum uh to send it to test I'm going to have to find one in Scotland which there might still be one alive there but there's an Indian North America and then um or one of the things I have because I think eventually technology will catch up to this it's not quite there yet is I have a envelope that's in a ziplock baggie in a safe in my house nice dry place from a 50 year old lick stamp of my grandfather so someday I think there will be a company that's what I'm hoping in my lifetime as technology advances that I can get out of the stamp if I'm not able to find a related McCallum male now what is fascinating to me about this McCallum project and I have Scots and Irish McCallums in their Malcoms and McCallums is that um they now not everyone's going to be related that's something you always have to keep in mind if you have a clan name because people became part of clans for protectorates and took the clan name however to me what's fascinating is that even through immigration or ones that didn't immigrate the surnames often change to variants like up here in group four we have a McCallum a Malcolm a McCallum a McCallum a McCallum and then another McCallum they all share the same white chromosome they have some changes in it I mean that shows that they're more distantly related but they are all matching in that cluster but even with the surname changes that they had they still share the same white chromosome from their clan so that's one of the fascinating things that you can find out about it um in the in clan projects another project that I have which I've been very fortunate to have two lions test while I'm here is uh the lion DNA project and I actually set this up for my husband um back in 2004 because he has a lion's ancestor that's brickwalled in New York and he has had a small success with it because the lion's surname is common in Ireland Scotland England France and Germany and the Spencer Wells he's the head of the National Geographic Geneographic Project he was here yesterday and spoke and if you didn't get to see it and you can watch the video on Morris's website um he there was a lion that tested through the gene graphic project and when you test in the gene graphic project you can upload your results into Family Tree DNA's database for free so this lion did that now his paper trail is not back as far as ours um his stop signs in 1850 England but what that did for us even though our paper trail goes back to 1809 is that it narrowed down the countries in which to research so I can I can throw in all those other countries I just named besides England now much to my surprise Brian Swan who many of you know and he's here at this conference he had started doing some genealogy research for me and he found that I had a lion line which I didn't know and it happens to be this one um the one that's related to the queen mom and this particular lion line is very well documented um this lion supposedly I used the you know in quotes came over with William the conqueror and he he did have um descendants that went into Scotland that stayed in England and then went into Ireland so we have DNA from all three of these lion groups so the lions that have tested here have a very good chance of possibly matching this particular lion line even if they're brick walled so that's one of the fascinating things it can do and it's it's a very well documented genealogy if you have lions in your ancestry or this line you can find this in google books just do a search online so one of the tests that I just realized I forgot a name earlier when I was naming off the different types of tests is mitochondrial DNA test that's the one that follows the female line and the maternal line so males and females have it but males do not pass it on these are the ones that are common in Ireland the different types of mitochondrial DNA here and um H is the most common in Ireland and in western Europe period probably most of Europe period but um these are ones that are considered indigenous to Ireland now um and this is my father's um mitochondrial DNA certificate which again it's nice to have their certificate but it doesn't derive meaning until you can compare the results but there's a little story I want to share about this this is my grandmother my grandmother my grandmother this is my grandmother my great-grandmother and great-great grandmother and they are scots they're from Aberdeen and my grandmother was an only child and this is my father and me and my father was an only child well when I first got into DNA testing 10 11 years ago yeah 11 um I went to my dad and I said daddy I need you to do a DNA test and he kind of procrastinated at first but then he did it and about I guess it was what six months later he died of cancer but I am so glad this is the the good moral of the story I'm so glad I tested when I did because Family Tree DNA stores the DNA for free for 25 years and you if you're the proxy for the kit you can upgrade that kit at any later time which I did for my father because I did not when I initially ran as results I was going for the white chromosome as I told you my earlier story I was able to get his mitochondrial DNA and get my grandmother's DNA and we do have matches in Scotland now this particular chart is not my match chart this is from cousin Bill Hearst see the Hearst's surname right there but Bill Hearst it's a it's a good example to use it knows Kelly is a quite nice Irish name to use for the example um he had a theory that dysmorpha and Catherine Kelly were sisters but they weren't sure if they were so they uh he tested and then he had another relative test and they ended up matching as you can see on my numbers overlapped a little bit so it collaborated that they were sisters and the daughter of Elizabeth Cummins so it is possible to use mitochondrial DNA for genealogy purposes it's just a bit more difficult because you know we often run into those brick walls in our records like you know my wife Mary and no maiden name listed that kind of thing but it is possible and it gives you oranges I'm origins I'm thinking Ireland fire okay so my mitochondrial DNA though is Irish and I my immigrant to ancestor was um named uh was uh arrived in a um well the story I've been told is that the in America they closed the ports to the famineships after a while because there was so much immigration so in our family verbal lawish the ship was diverted to Canada because Canada being a commonwealth country was not allowed to close the ports so they came in through Canada into the United States and settled in Chicago and that's the ship she arrived on in 1848 I don't have a picture of my immigrant ancestor but this is her daughter so um Johanna Powell and so when I did a DNA test knowing that I'm Irish and you know my parents had always told me you know you're Irish you that's why you like potatoes you know but I tell you I have no Irish like to say my life I always tell people if it wasn't for bad luck I don't know like at all and when I got my my DNA results for this ancestral line from my Irish family immigrant I was quite surprised because going back to that chart here my mitochondrial haplogroup the what it shows for the origins is not even listed here I'm an N and N is not indigenous to Ireland it's all of my matches are in Eastern Europe primarily in Italy and so I had some people come up to me and go yeah you do look Italian but um so that left me with the question if I'm you know I come from self-identified Irish family immigrants in the Chicago census is there listed as Irish all the documentation I have says they're Irish they were Catholic um but you know my DNA is not indigenous Ireland so am I Irish am I still as Irish as my parents said I am and as far as I'm concerned I am because the question is when do you stop being one thing and become another so as far as my ancestors were concerned they were Irish I have also my Scottish ones that I were showing you earlier the McCallums one of their lines were Huguenots from France and the 1500s and Fleta Scotland so when do they stop being French and become Scottish so your whatever your DNA tells you it's just a piece of information and you can take with you and you decide how you interpret it just like everything in your environment just like how you were raised so as far as I'm concerned I'm still Irish but being N might explain why I don't have any luck I didn't have it in the DNA so but I thought that was interesting and one of the things too that you can do with family Trudini is to be able to pinpoint and map where your ancestors were from where they originated and this one is the one for my Irish family ancestor and all I have is that she's from Cork her surname though this could be a clue too that we might not have been as Irish as I thought we were returning with English her name is Julia English and as I probably don't have to tell you English is not an Irish surname however it's very common in Cork there's a ton of Englishes in Cork Morris very kindly last year helped me go through the valuation records at the Griffith's valuation at the valuation office and there's a ton of Englishes and pals which is my ancestors in Valleylanders in Limerick so I copied all those records and I'm going to go through them eventually I can have a success out of that but going on so that the fourth kind of DNA to talk about is autosomal DNA and the autosomal DNA is the DNA that you get from both of your parents and it mixes so you and your siblings will not have the same amount within you and um some of the companies have very conservative thresholds for autosomal DNA they'll say that it it stops at about the fifth cousin range however you know it's it's random on how you inherit those patterns I even know a person that has inherited a whole entire chromosome strand just from one ancestor so you know you never know so what I recommend you do is I recommend you you enter all of your ancestors in your tree as far back as you have because you don't know where those matches are going to occur you don't know how to it you inherit it so to give you an example picture why is all this isn't the updated system that found a tree DNA has but it's a good for visual this is my brother and my brother's coming out as 100 European well uh this is me so as you can see I have what I refer to as a pizza slice of Jewish ancestry and I don't have any known Jewish ancestry but um out of my half Scott quarter Irish the other quarter is Bohemian from Austria Czechoslovakia area so I'm guessing that's probably why that originated but see I inherited a chunk that my brother didn't so that's why it's important to also test your siblings and as much as your family members as you possibly can um this is my sense and my son has an additional pizza slice of Native American DNA and that comes from my husband's side which both of my children because I've done autosomal testing on them they have different amounts of Native American DNA my son actually has more so he teases my daughter and says meaner meaner meaner because it's a prestigious thing to have that there I mean people Americans like it anyways this is another um uh chart that you get when you do autosomal testing the family finder tested family tree DNA now remember that story when in the beginning when I said I called up family tree DNA and said why can't I test for my dad because and they had to explain to me I don't have white chromosome and I'm going I look like my dad I have a lot of affinity I'm daddy's little girl so um when this test came out as far as I was concerned I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and the reason is is because I can see my dad's DNA in me now I don't have to sweet talk males all the time into uh ponying up their white chromosomes for me to test because these three people that are listed up here are my cousins they're known cousins the bottom one with the orange is the first cousin once removed so he shares more DNA in common with me he's where all the orange lines are on the chart um I'm the dark blue and then the other two are fourth cousins so where you see an overlapping segment like this I know I'm looking at bolt DNA granted it could be from the bolt's wife or you know female line but since I don't know the maiden name I just say bolt it's just easier but I know that we inherited it from that same line that there's a more kind of technical process you can do this is what I'm explaining right here's a very rudimentary phasing but you can phase it and actually tease out the different ancestral lines and many people have started doing that now the companies will eventually implement it they haven't yet one of the reason is because of the cost it'll cost them a lot in server space to be able to tease out and phase out the different lines so another thing that you get that's very important especially too for those of you that might have adoptees in your family or are adopted is this particular screen this is my son's I'm very cautious about privacy so I usually only use my own slides with my our names and I get permission from cousins to use theirs but so this shows that myself my husband and my brother the computer predicts how they're related you can confirm it down there I left it to say pending so you can see that you have to confirm the relationship shows how much DNA you have in common and then over there if you if the other person has entered their surnames and you also have to the computer will automatically highlight what surnames you have in common so of course because this is my child he has all of our ancestors of common so they're all highlighted but that's something that's very handy and being able pick that out I recently had um I was at Southern California Genealogical Society Jamboree and I met a woman there who turns out to be like my she's my second cousin second maybe third or second once removed but she's adopted and she matches me on the bolt line and the reason she knows she matches me on the bolt line is because I've had so many bolts test she was able to phase out the DNA and know she matches so it was really neat meeting her because I'm the first blood relative she's ever met besides her own son but you know that's different so on 23andMe which you if you test through 23andMe they're only doing ancestry testing right now you can upload your results into Family Tree DNA too but the reason I included this slide is because they have a breakdown of the different populations and I chose one that didn't have Irish on it I see but they do have Irish on their on their list some of the other ones aren't quite teased out but again go to Daniel Kratz's speech because when he talks about the people of the British Isles once that data is published and added to the database you're going to see a lot of those populations filled in like that so that'll be really amazing I'm looking forward to that my brother won't be quite the solid blue um something else that you might see in the media that or have heard about is Neanderthal DNA tests and both 23andMe and Genographic get results for Neanderthal DNA now I'm a genealogist so I'm not really I mean I kind of look at this as a novelty you could say kind of interesting or and I also think it's kind of funny so this particular person has 2.9 percent Neanderthal DNA and the average European has 2.7 so um I I mean I don't know how to say it but if if you're into the ancient DNA or you're more into the novelty of it then this is something that might appeal to you in these tests do you have it what it means is it just means that you share certain genes in common with them so that's what this particular one has and uh genographic furthermore gives you Denisovan results which I don't have any in me so I didn't show that um resources so as Morta said when he introduced me I'm the director of ISOG ISOG is a free society I know free sounds too good to be true but let me explain what's behind that a group of us got together and started ISOG and we felt that if you have extra money you want to spend on a DNA test not more dues and fees for societies so all of us pay for it ourselves that run it like I wrote I paid for the website but um we don't take any donations you can join for free but what we do offer mostly is on the internet as resources so this is one of our most popular mailing list DNA newbie um it has almost 3000 members probably over the 3000 mark by now um it has a listing for genetic genealogy Ireland 2013 but um you can join this Yahoo group and ask questions and there's all kinds of knowledgeable people in there including doctors and scientists who will help answer your questions and people that do this like Debbie Kennett who specialized in this um and they'll answer your questions for free we also have the ISOG Facebook group which is um at over 5000 members now it's a private group because we try to keep the spammers out but you don't actually even have to be an ISOG member to join but we also have a lot of postings we Joss who's here at the conference has been posting the conference to the Facebook group the whole time I'm doing the Twitter part of it and then one of my favorite favorite things we have an ISOG which could potentially be a big help to you especially if you're just starting out is our wiki it's kind of like Wikipedia but it's just on DNA and a lot of it is done by Debbie Kennett who's here at the conference and um CC Moore and a couple other people are contributors to it but it has a lot of free resources and one of the things I like about it too is it's less work for me because I used to have to do a lot of the content on the site I also have books that I'd recommend and Emily Alicino who's there in the back with the black vest on she's has her book it's called genetic genealogy the basics and beyond so this is a very good starter book to start with Debbie Kennett as well also has some of her books for sale hers hers starts out with kind of like Emily's with the basics and then she also has a social networking aspect on it with uh Facebook and then these two books are a little older especially some dollars that you buy Brian Sykes that one dates from the year 2000 so it's very it's very very basic but the reason I recommend it I have several reasons I recommend it one it's good for um again with the basics especially mitochondrial DNA you can really get a good idea of grasping the mitochondrial DNA from the little stories he puts in there but also he has some funny stories in there that I like you know and I think he broke his leg and he DNA tested hamsters and things like that so it's an enjoyable read and you probably can get it at a library because it's the best seller and then Megan Smolnyak wrote a companion book for the who do you think you are show this is the american one it's from the first season so that the center part of it has the celebrities from the first season and Mo what's the percentage again of how many Americans have Irish ancestry it was supposed to be 12 and a half percent but I think that's an underestimate I think it is because every time Morris asks that question in America everybody so there's probably some Irish in there too but the the reason I recommend this book too is she does include DNA in it and it's very it's a very good especially especially you're just starting out in genealogy period so sure oh thank you Emily so is there any questions yes thank you that was a really helpful talk I think I'm still a little bit confused about one thing about the why DNA testing if I'm right the haplogroups are defined by snips but the tests seem to test strs so when you get your results from a test how do how can they place you in a haplogroup by snips that's a good question um and also I did I didn't really cover it here's a good screen to show um so what a haplogroup is is a haplogroup is a group of haplotypes and the ystrs are haplotypes this is a haplotype so by knowing what haplogroup which you see how this one's in green and these others are in red so the one in green has actually been confirmed it's actually snip tested s and p tested on for the deep ancestral origins the r would be so that one's actually been confirmed the haplogroups confirm so when you have no confirmed snips then what they can do is they can look at the strs and then predict what these will be so these are the ones in red are actually predicted they're not confirmed um if there's a serious question about it on what you might be uh county tree DNA will do free snip testing they have a snip assurance program and so for example one of my tomsons a tomson is another project that i have um they that i have a group of tomsons from scotland who are mitochond i mean not mitochondria y chromosome c which now that's not indigenous scotland that's indigenous to asia so they did free snip testing on them to confirm that they really were and they were but um so that's that part of it they do once you do snip testing they have extended snip tests that you can do to refine it down further some of the snip experts like michael in the back probably could share more info on that okay if i could just ask a follow up maybe i do fully understand now so the patterns of the strs um making up various haplogroup types are known to correlate with the haplogroups defined by snips correct correct yeah i got it all of these all of these haplotypes here correspond with this r1v1 b2 great question anybody else any other questions we have one here from daniel uh yeah just a follow up is the um so the idea is that the strs are a cheaper way of doing the same thing that that kind of um is that is that correct like yes and no i mean most people don't start out testing a ystr to find out what the haplogroup is i usually come second uh secondary but most people for gene genealogy purposes you need to do the ystrs because you need the matching and the 37 markers is about a three to four hundred year time frame as you as you know with the the snips the haplogroups that we're looking at thousands of years time frame right so um people when they first start out and they do like mr kennedy when he does a white chromosome test he'll get his matches and he'll see matches other kennedys but then when he sees his haplogroup and he might become interested in that do further sniff testing especially if he's m222 people that are the northwest irish type tend to really be as michael can probably uh collaborate tend to really be into testing further deep downstream to see exactly where they go right some people say the snips are the branches on the tree and the uh estuary so the leaves at the end of the branches that's a good way to put it thanks drard any other questions we have a question here at the back just in relation to the family find a test that family tree dna do and i uploaded my results to get match and i had matches with people who i knew were distant cousins from being in contact with them and paper of course which hadn't shown up as a match with family tree but did show up as a match when they were loaded on to get match why did that happen probably because jedd match has a lower threshold set so uh family tree dna tends to have more conservative thresholds on their system which you can lower the thresholds but all the same when they give you the instantaneous matching you don't always see it so the companies like to be conservative about the the matches because they don't want you to have false positives but since jedd matches an independent website they're able to show you more that's probably the best way i can explain it i've i've done similar things with cousins i've tested cousins that are six cousins i only have one that shows up in 23 and me but the others don't show up so that's something that jedd match can do for you when you upload to there does that help did i answer that what about the future what'll happen with snips and estuars in the future because uh obviously the snips are higher up on the branches the estuars are down towards the leaves or the branches and the leaves approaching each other okay here based on doing this for 11 years here's my future predictions my future predictions is that um with sequencing like the big why we will still get more markers right now uh family tree dna offers 111 but people will probably continue to keep asking asking for more because that's how it's been in the past give us more give us more we need to refine this down but eventually the ystrs the time frame and the snips time frame we're supposed to intersect to where you can pinpoint an exact place like say dublin ireland gleason dublin ireland when will that happen oh next five years maybe 10 5 10 i mean we're we're on the threshold too of having an affordable whole genome sequencing for the last couple of years they've said that they're waiting for the thousand dollar genome but when we're at family tree dna we're we heard a price that was much less than that so it's coming in fact in that sample i mentioned to you earlier that about my father after he passed away that's on pilot family tree dna i do not upgrade it anymore and the reason i don't is because i'm waiting for the whole genome test because since he's an only child and i have no more sources of it um then that's all i have to be able to test and once i get the whole genome i won't need any more than that so hopefully yes paul yeah comment about uh markers i i tested myself to 111 markers but uh recently i sent my data to yfo and the report came back it's 440 markers but the problem is i had no one to compare those i was okay as yeah maybe uh century from now the uh the other companies will expand to that range if needed i got four hundred and forty four yes yes sdm markers well now paul's surname is burns and as you know that's a very common surname here so maybe if you had some other burns that upgraded into yfo you'd have some matches and i'm northwest irish but i'm the only one in my category i'm the only one in my category who's taking the big white test which provides the data that i then sent the yfo to uh also analyze eight and a half all right all the mt2 experts are in the back of the room i think you can tell yeah great any other questions fine well listen as it just remains for me to thank you Catherine for a fabulous presentation very very clearly but i always enjoy your presentation because you've been doing this for such a long time you know exactly what you're talking about you can make it's very concise and clear for everybody so thank you very much Catherine thanks for amazing fabulous thank you just stop that