 There? When else? I've been to that one. Wait until I go out of the room. So it's a great test. Let's see what he says for me. Good, good. I've got a lot of things to talk about. I'll wait for a minute. Can we see the handy movement presentation online? Yeah, yeah. All of them should be available already. I'll go and check tonight. So if you see slides.com and then FJ coming, then I've got all the things in there, so that's the handy-models one. Cool. Wifi's not working, but I'm just using the mobile. If it's not, try disconnecting or reconnecting. I've done that already. It's fine. So many people are out at the same time at so many people. Yeah, it's still very fine. We'll survive. Okay, thank you very much for checking. Cool. So yeah, welcome all to the talk. I'm aware that it's the very last one of the day. We're probably tired, we're probably hungry, we're probably many things. Alert might not be one of them. So I tried to make it interesting. I mean, feel free to stop being a Q&A at the end, but to be honest, I don't mind being interrupted mid-session to answer anything. So just feel free to ask around. Little bit about me. Some of you already know me, some of you don't. So my name is Fram. I work for AMIC Labs. I usually work right now on working on support and maintenance. I can send you a developer on that thing. Those are my contact details. I'm basically, I mean, anything, if you just type FJGarlin on Google, whatever comes out of the feed, that's where I am. If it doesn't come on the set, it will shine. So what we're planning to cover today, this is in the track of community and business, so it's not going to be a technical talk at all. But I'm trying to make it super-orientated as well as much as I can. So this is about team leadership. What is that person's role within that team. And we also try to hook it up to Drupal. And I'm going to be also showing some real-life examples, talking about some old colleagues, and things like that. The first thing is why and if we're giving this talk. Okay, so first of all, I like sharing. If we're over here, if we'll use Drupal, there's that sharing part that we'll have in common. And I just like talking about my experiences, talking about what I know, because by doing that, I find that all the people back and then I learn, and then I might be able to tell those people something that they didn't know. So I just like learning at the time and I like discussing, I like talking, and by talking to other people, it's the way that I've learned the most. So that's kind of what inspired me to give this talk. I did a bit more about myself, so when I started to work, I started as a teacher. So I was teaching kind of an MBQ level, so after high school, before uni, that sort of thing, and I was teaching more sort of computing things, so programming, databaseing, networking, all that. It's something that I did like a lot and it was really fulfilling except for a few things. One of the things that I've never finished working so I have like three, four, five hours lessons on that day, then go back home and I need to do the markings, I need to prepare the lessons, and then comes the end of the semester when the parents come and meet you and I didn't like really all those parts but teaching was something that I really enjoyed a lot. But then at some point I was really attracted by, I mean, I knew development obviously, I blended in uni and I was using my free time but I wanted to get my hands a bit dirty as well. The noise is not only telling students jugara to be, jugara to that, it's doing it myself. That is in real challenges and I'm getting out a bit of the theory level. I started working on PHP, bit of backend as well, same framework, busy frameworks and all that but then at some point I was introduced to Drupal and I started working with Drupal 6 in the last days of Drupal 6 so I've been mostly working on Drupal 7 and lately Drupal 8 as well. And then around those years I came most of my career as developer has been in Drupal and most of that time I've been growing as a team leader. So I started off in my old place as kind of junior developer, mid-level developer and then I was growing and growing some of the people left and that kind of put me in a spot in which I needed to be, I mean we also had a culture in there of hiring a lot of junior people for several reasons. So I was in a spot in which I needed to actually teach all those junior guys I needed to mentor them I needed to spend a lot of time with them and that was cool. I mean it's on one hand as I said as I said I did enjoy teaching but I didn't like certain parts of teaching and then I did enjoy development and that's kind of where everything come back to that again so I could still spend some time with people see them grow, see them improve but also I was as well working as a developer and it was more a real time situation sort of day by day as opposed to when you are teaching which is this could happen, this could happen this is happening, we go to fix it let's sit down and do it Now I'm just senior developer of team leader anymore just because I moved to to a medicine but to be honest I would mention it at the very end of the presentation I still do the same I'm not called team leader but I still spend time with juniors I sit down with them we do pair programming it's kind of cool so we're going to be talking a lot of things about that what my thoughts are it doesn't mean that that's the way to go that's what my thoughts are so as I said before opinions and different points of view or these sort of things so the role of a team leader and I always I mean I like it but if we would need to put it I mean it really depends on the size of the company obviously but on a normal situation we would have management at the top we would have all the team at the bottom somehow and then we would have project managers, project owners those are the people who are usually in touch with the client and and then we have the team leader in between like linking passing the information from the project manager and product owner it might even be involved with the client or not but then that's kind of the challenge lead the team towards achieving the project and I want to make a differentiation between management and leadership if you say I put management and I put team leader because I really think that they are very different a manager, the way I see it is a person up there and this role is far beyond that I don't even think of that a leader is somebody that has to be inspiring that has to be human, has to be exactly the same level as a human person because if the moment that they see you above them they will be reluctant to talk to you they will be reluctant to approach to you they will have fear that they won't share with you so I really think that part of the role of a team leader is a lot of attitude and basically there is a difference between trying to lead a team as opposed to trying at team when you are living if you saw some old movies when they go toward the leader, that's the one that goes first whereas the team stays at hand so that's management versus leadership you really need to get your hands dirty and be in the middle of the situation and all these sort of things I put in there that it's usually a developer just because in my sense it doesn't need to be or the time it really depends on the context of the company but usually it makes sense for it to be a developer I'm not saying backhand from team I'm just saying developer because it's more in contact with the team his or her role is towards the team one of the key things that I think is the most important and probably in that sense you are exposed when you are living, you are exposed everyone is looking at you, especially the juniors so you really need to live by example and that might be really typical really silly sentence to say but that's hard to achieve because living by example all day every day it can be sometimes you get lazy, you get bad days you get all sorts of things between the skills that I think are important is communication regardless of your accent you just need to pass the message across, it doesn't matter how as long as it gets in there you need to be organized but I've put in bold the ones that I really think are key in here you've got to be approachable that's a very challenging one we'll see later on that as a team leader you're going to have probably more pressure than any other team member just because because of your seniority or position they're going to try to make you more accountable and you're going to be more involved with the budget whereas maybe a juniors that so it hasn't got a clue about what budget is or the time implications so it is a real challenge to be approachable if somebody asks for your help you're going to be there and that could create stress sometimes at the moment I'm working remote but as I said even if I'm not team leader it doesn't change that much I mean there are some times in which people just slap me and let's just talk and we just video chat and I think that's really important is what we'll make developers grow as well because they won't be afraid to ask a silly question once they ask it they will learn it and that means that next week they will know about it and that means that in two weeks time if maybe another junior has that issue maybe that person can help having done that investment at the beginning on your time if we invest on the rest of the team confidence I think it's important respectful and again as a team leader you can have all sort of people in your team and sometimes you just need to shut up on your opinion don't know you can be careful with that it's all about respect I always say that I'm more than open to listen in any opinion so long as you're open to listen to my opinion so if there's a culture of good communication use it otherwise just be careful and if you are not willing to do all these kind of things probably you are not willing or maybe or maybe you're going to have harder time okay you can still be a team leader but I think as I said before attitude really makes a difference with this route in the sense of enjoying it okay you can be a team leader a really good team leader and not enjoy it you can be a crappy team leader and enjoy it and that will make you a happier worker okay and I think the happiness of each and every employee is key even if you are not the best position for that okay I might be I mean I know that along all these years and still today I do really things that could be done differently better but I enjoy and I have an open mind to learning and all these sort of things and it's kind of the way I'm enjoying it is what makes me keep on going as well being fair okay so credit when it's view and all these sort of things so just really need to yeah I mean again we're talking about people we're not talking true but we're not talking about any technology so just really gotta be careful not being unfair towards somebody just because you don't like that person or anything like that so yeah that's important integrity influential I think some of the things come with time as well delegation for me that was a real challenge I started off as I told you before as a developer I was besides a more senior person I was a junior at that time and then at some point I started to have more and more and more responsibilities and then all those senior people went away so that was everything on me and when you know the systems when you know the project well it is really hard to let go of it and trust somebody that you know is gonna make mistakes which is normal it's okay I did my mistakes as well at the beginning and they have to do it in order to grow so that delegation delegate your job or task into somebody that you really need to learn how to do that is really important as well because otherwise you would end up doing everything you would be like micromanaging those people so it's kind of important to learn that as well and what happens when you delegate is that then you need to facilitate it's not just okay just here it is just do it I chat with you tomorrow it's like okay here it is you have to do these tasks maybe you can find resources here here here and maybe you can find an example of how to do this in this project and in that other project so that's important as well is again we are trying to make people grow and so it's important to give them the resources I always say the approach that I always taken and that might have been right or might have been wrong is I try to be to the junior of the developers what I would have luck to have when I was a junior okay I was lucky enough to have food with people and I took a lot of the things that I do from them but I was unimportant in that as well to be thrown at projects without any sort of background without any anything and I was hard to really ask for help and this sort of thing so I really tried to facilitate as much as possible I think it's important you need to negotiate especially when it comes to that side of things okay we'll talk about it in a bit and it's probably the most important to me and it's only if you mess up you really need to admit it if you said something stupid and you've realized later on just say this be human it doesn't matter again you are a leader you are not a manager you are not I think it's easier to get a respect from other people if you are honest if you are open if you say I don't know somebody asked you something I have no idea I can look it up for you we can look it up together we can just try to do it together and oh yeah if sometimes you mess up then go home talk to the wife or talk to your friends and then you realize that you made a mistake it's important to go on for a win day and apologize might be stupid but it's hard to apologize for some people so I really think that honesty is it's the same key is coming back to what I said at the beginning we are trying to lead and in order to lead you need to be at the same level okay if you are going to battle I mean I probably don't like that the sample of battle but when you go to battle you all go together so when you are leaving you need to lead with the rest of the people and you need to be one more and we are talking is like do you mean that this this role is usually a developer do you need to be an expert developer I think that helps but I think that's not everything at all I think it's really more about attitude because again maybe I don't know but I'm going to sit down with you and we're going to find out together helps more than knowing what it is and then not facilitate that to the person I have had that I was very frustrating and I was starting with Drupal and my beginning was a bit bumpy because of that I mean yeah because I didn't have I think I didn't have the support that I should have inside the company and that made it hard it was a very bumpy start then over time things got better people changed and all that so yeah I don't think that this really you don't need to be an expert developer you just need to be there help all the other things that I just mentioned before and then it's important things that maybe maybe the person of the team or maybe more junior people don't think about it is you really need to think of which approach and I'm going to take two projects so as a team leader you usually need to think of that beforehand because depending on the skills of the team it could be that we have mostly front enders we have mostly back enders we have side breeders but none of them you might have there's all the news to Drupal what do we do in those cases and then not only skill set wise I mean do they know the technology or which area do they focus on is their experience are they just is it their first job are they coming out of another job or they are experienced developers so we focus on this question later on when I try to hook it up to Drupal but again that's something that you've got to think of when you are in that position before even starting a project and then what are the challenges so if you say I literally copy paste that first line so to me most of the times most of the challenges have come from the left side but as a team leader you also have a lot of challenges on the right side so the team itself is a challenge you have a myriad of characters a myriad of skills a myriad of willingness to learn or to listen or to anything and then on the left you've got management and you've got product managers, owners and clients as well and you might be lacking maybe not to be doing both in clients but still management owners they an extra pressure and for example some of the key things that I've been facing over the years it's been first performance so and again we're talking of a team leader is it just your performance it is your performance but it's the performance of a team if you are having a team of juniors that can apply to you if you are going over about it over time it's just going to apply to you because to proceed your leading day your experience you should know the drill blah blah blah so you've got a challenge in there and the second one is accountability which is kind of similar and again it's your own accountability on the team something goes wrong who is to blame in here are we going to blame the juniors that just started working with you about two months ago it's not fair you should have taught him better something like that so those challenges those are situations that you are going to find and then probably I mean there has to go together most of the times time and budget what's the time that you're giving for a project and what's the budget many times as a team leader you always try to stay away from money I always say even when they start telling me numbers is I don't tell you the number is that because I don't get the number you are putting it and you are that's your decision I'm not going to say whether this project is 10k, 50k, 100k because I can tell you all the time what I think could be so I think that that was that has always been a challenge but by sticking to it in my case at least it has worked I refuse to talk money because I don't know the other side of the thing okay you want to live with the time you want to live with the time I can tell you how long I think something is going to take three days, four days are you willing to absorb part of that training so be do you want to charge everything out so be I'm telling you what the time could be and usually when we are talking about time I'm not even going to give you tell you five days I'm going to tell you this might be between five to ten days five to ten days we are talking about it really depends is that we are talking in this case or this case so on that I think again coming it is a challenge we were talking before about kind of the attitude towards the team you need to be close you need to be honest you need to be fair respectful this sort of things but at the same time you need to be harsh in the sense of not harsh in a bad way but I'm there because I am somebody okay because I have some experience so if I'm telling you that this is probably going to take ten days if you don't want to listen to me it's going to be your decision but I told you ten days and that is a challenge that's not easy to say to a host that's not easy to say to somebody who is over you but if you don't say that then you are exposing yourself then you will be a compel if you never say I thought it was going to be ten days and then they are going to fight and then it takes ten it's ten days why? I told you okay so that's kind of the key and that's again this is in the challenging area all this is going to comfort our part all this you can make it comfortable and nice but you don't need to be scared of this I mean again if we are relying if they are relying on you if somehow you are put into that position because you've done something right to be in that position so you shouldn't be afraid to talk to management to talk to a product owner if a client comes back with a silly request just try to talk them out of it just try to tweet it a bit so that we still achieve part of what they want but we do it in a way that is achievable in a realistic time and budget more challenges but days I mean it's my kid has woken up three times tonight I've been up since five my kid is crampy and I'm even crampier and then I need to go to work to find more crampy people it all comes back to really I mean those things happen it really happened I mean we're all human at the beginning I always try to hide it at the end I was just hoping as a book it's like it's been awful like if I say something that I shouldn't today please so again it comes back to to honesty again we're talking about challenges that is a challenge then some more challenges the last two I think they are very important and these two they are very fulfilling and if you get them right one is keeping developers engaged so we're talking we're talking before about juniors many times juniors but what if you're living more experienced developers I mean I've had in my team people with 10-20 years experience whereas I only have five in itself and the respect that people keeping engaged it's it could be tricky but I think it's possible I mean you need to find ways I always say I have regular catch ups with them I try to say okay what do you want to do and what can we do within our constraints of the company it's much harder when you're in a company structure that has plenty of projects in parallel and that the developers have to switch from project to project to I mean did you find any situation like that to be able to keep that really engaged and invest it into the project that you're trying to run yeah I know what you mean so in that sense the approach that I used to take is I really thought for having regular catch ups with the developers again I was honest to them so I would ask somebody where do you want to go what do you want to focus on I really want to focus on backing I want to do symphony to relate and I told them okay if the opportunity comes I'd make the most I'd try my best to have you do it if it doesn't then it's completely out of my control what can we do right try it do we have a training budget or not if you have training budget can we convince management to get them to do a symphony course so for example and something I did and so what you're suggesting is that we can offer to developers within the team the possibility of choosing their own stuff in terms of the different parts of the development step into the other different kinds of projects yeah I focus try that um I mean maybe I've been lucky but I found out that this um if I was like a mix of some of them went back in some of them went from 10 whereas some of them went just to do a bit of everything and in that sense it has worked out and it has given me very very valuable information when working on those multiple projects that's pretty much what the context that I've been working on always say many projects going on at the same time I mean this means precisely the tools the information that I need to allocate people to project but yeah the only way that I could find that out was by meeting with the developers regularly I always kept log traffic and we always used to we used to come back to it and say okay two months ago you told me this what have we done in these two months I haven't had any back-end project okay I look for training try to find a course try to find a certification try to find a conference go for it maybe we can work that way if I mean at game of the day if we don't have certain projects we don't if I want to get better at react but we don't have any react project the only way is to do in another way okay which is not a project and then yeah the last challenge is career progression which is kind of close to keeping developers engaged because when they are engaged then we try to make their own way and then career progression again I talk about your own career progression and your team and I think it's important to really see where they want to go because that will make it easier to allocate them to this or to that or to other things I will keep them happier if they are happier they will keep on working for longer and they will keep on growing and things kind of will work out better and then think of of your own progression as well it's like again it's a good question to yourself and I'm happy in this role and I'm having too much pressure and after pressure I would wait and then the other nice things that the role have so yeah you can keep it on with yourself and see whether you want to do it or not the career progression is a little bit overlap with the management I mean in our company it's the way that it's done it's like the project managers or managers at a high level we have like introduced with the staff on a regular basis and ask them where would you like to go functional development, testing and stuff like that but do you think it should still be the responsibility of the team leader? At least in the part I mean obviously not with everybody maybe if we're talking probably the team leader could be because I think the way I think is that the team leader is a person that is closer to the team usually POS or management they won't talk regularly to the developers so they won't know that so if a developer tell me I want to be project manager then I could just pass that information and say to management or to any other POS this person wants to be that what can we do and then forget about it but I think that the team leader in this case when you are on another development team is the entry point of the information after that it can be spread to It's very much into the attitude to get close, very close with your team and establish this kind of relationship Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to focus on that first but I really think it's the key is what you can enjoy and what they can really Yeah, you can be a group together I want to bring it obviously when all in Drupal come so I want to bring all that a bit into the Drupal world that's a lot of information we don't need to go through all of it but obviously I'm not going to say too much about why Drupal and not WordPress I think we're over here for a reason it's got a great foundation it's got flexibility, community so I'm not going to go too much into that but if we want to focus into okay, if I were talking to a managing director, PEO, PM so we can always say it's open source or maybe when building sorry, those roles when building with clients an argument that you can use is it's open source there's loads of information out there so it's easy to move between agencies so you're not really saying I'm going to do this and you're going to be hooked with me forever so that's a good argument as a team leader when using Drupal so I think it's really good for mentoring and coaching so there are other frameworks that might not be as good in the sense of resources and in the sense that you can really architect the project in multiple ways if you're using the same framework good luck it's awesome once you know it but going through the documentation is hard and it really focuses the architectural approach of a project in a certain way whereas with Drupal we can always go more towards custom modules site building all these sort of things so I really think that Drupal offers a little bit on that and then when talking about leading by example again so how Drupal is how are you doing the things when you're working how are you doing the Drupal way are you hacking a way so yeah, you've got to be careful with that and then as a developer the cool what we find with Drupal is that obviously we have an initial learning queue but that is Drupal 7.8 whichever version it's very big yeah, it's a steep at the beginning it's much harder than it could be any other CMS or WordPress or maybe not but things like that they are easy to pick up and you have lots of things but once you know a little bit it's very flexible something that I really like about Drupal is that yeah, you've got those separations of back-end from tensile reading I mean, if some of you were in my top-handy modules you can build loads and loads and loads of sites just clicking away without calling a single line you can build a whole website that was something that we got a few years ago many more years ago in order than I want to be so it's flexible and it's got a lot of modules it's got a huge community so that helps a lot as a developer again, do you need to be an expert Drupal developer? Now away you don't have to at all and then if you remember I told you that I would come back to this approach to projects so in that sense for me the way I've been approaching in all these years when developing with Drupal so how do you engage, experience developers make them code okay they were excited about calling Drupal 7 modules and they are even more excited now to call Drupal 8 modules it's way more challenging but that's part of yeah, keeping them engaged so whatever is in the project that could be could need custom code send it to them send it their way even if sometimes it's over-engineering I mean so long as you stick to the budget and the time at a developer I mean I have found situations in which people have been willing to work on their own time just because they wanted to learn how to code Drupal 8 modules it was a big challenge from Drupal 7 to 8 therefore, they wanted to learn and they said okay we could do this but maybe we can do this custom module okay, go for it that could be I want to keep them engaged whatever we have just the opposite extremely I just first joke I don't know my way around Drupal I will say completely the opposite don't let them code don't let them write a line of code because each line that they write it is a potential point of failure of their programming so in that sense with junior developers it's really easy to work with Drupal because they can achieve loads and that give them really good sense of achievement because they think we are able to build whole website using a tool just by yeah, installing modules and all that and that's cool I mean we don't have that with all the frameworks yeah, in some other frameworks you are forced to code whereas with Drupal yeah, you could and then when the situation in between we can most always build I use some site reading coding so when I used to work with developers and I always told them I can yeah, it was mostly about content types because some of them they would just go crazy start reading content types and end up decide too many content type like and then yeah that was awful to maintain and I told them I keep it simple keep it yeah, easy um yeah, so my point is what I'm trying to get at is again as a team leader you can lead them in any specific direction you can try to keep them engaged in a different part of the part of the project how do you start with people yes, graduate developers people who know zero Drupal yeah how do you start with them do you start with all the projects um, so usually I mean that could really depend on management and how willing to invest time on them usually when you take a junior you're making a commitment to training somehow because you do know the lack of experience so I always push for a few weeks of pure training having the first two, three weeks of pure training I always I give them the resources I go in this Drupalized mini series just go through it go in this blog post I'm even trying to set them dummy projects or maybe if I see that they are very easy to do tickets, just try to give them that but I think that yeah, for a graduate the very first experience that you've got with Drupal is key because that would be confidence and then I will make them more harder towards getting to know better Drupal obviously it's not everything down to me if I set them up and spend I want three weeks for this area but just to be trained they may say I wasn't in production straight away then yeah, again part of the challenge we were talking before you really need to talk out your mind and say that's not a good idea that I'm going to stop and there's nothing we can do because it's not even there for it right basically there's no choice it's either you did it love it yourself or yeah, exactly so yeah, I think this is really talking about them again, I mean talking a bit more about challenges and so if you say I'm reading custom, custom, custom so it's time to challenge do you need to really choose whether you write something custom or not that can be custom theme or it can be using bootstrap out of the box as it is it could be on a module like do we want the Salesforce base integration or do we want to write something for Salesforce we're talking budget it's the same so most of the times whether yeah whether or not we go over time whether or not we go over budget it really depends how much custom culture you do but then it's on the other side to keep the bio person engaged and to keep to improve you really need to start doing custom things it's the only way if you don't do modules you don't get better at doing modules yeah, go one minute wasn't it until 5? we can't go over time I thought it was until 5 and that's what I was counting on are we okay until 5? yeah yeah, okay so 6 minutes cool I'm so fine with alright so I just wanted to talk to you briefly about some people wow that's no internet so there are nice photos in there of those people but because I hook it into my mobile they are not loading for whatever reason anyway, we've got Alex we've got Joel and we've got Nick the three of them were actually team members so Alex's background was more PHP developer so he started as a junior was in his first job his main struggle was that he wouldn't really understand everything so it took him forever to really go through any ticket because he was actually reading the code of the modules so how did Drupal help in his case trust other people call trust the community trust your peer developers you don't really understand it I'm telling you that he does that trust it you don't need to go through it and see how many variables or whatever just use it and he also helped and learned good patterns from there so he improved obviously in practicality and what is he now just is technical elite of UI so in his case it was a total shift from he started packing and now is doing mostly frontend she did sound engineering no programming whatsoever she did a bit of programming in some math modules but no programming so she started as an intern and then she struggled a bit more in packing and server management so in that sense we realized that straight away and we kept her away from that so how did Drupal help in this case because she could focus on the frontend side of Drupal that's where we put her in and that and she's amazing I mean she's really good at it it took her some time but by focusing just on that side and yeah we didn't force her into learning things that were beyond her capabilities and then yes improving on that that I said and now she's Drupal frontend developer and then Nick so he did computer science it was his first job but he had a really good base he started as a junior developer and his struggles were maybe budget he was a perfectionist he wanted to do everything up to the last detail he just he would spend hours and hours and hours of his own time just working on a project and that's no good either and as a team leader you really need to first job you're super enthusiastic okay great but oh we see because you're gonna just burn out very soon and you just need to keep it practical I need to to be within the constraint if you always go over budget then yeah I'm not gonna learn to work within those constraints which I think is important so Drupal helped in his place to follow a simple approach to some projects as I said instead of creating 20 content types and you better go over three and use paragraphs and do it easy and then he improved a lot in yeah knowing the complexity of tasks stepping out and see the whole picture and thinking about it which I think is important and especially when coding was involved and where he's now he jumped into digital consultancy and now he's Drupal developer again he wanted to do development so that was it I mean as I said at the very beginning the team leader skills are not really technical they are important but they are not key and in order to make developers grow you really need to know them you need to know what they want and also know the context of the company and all that and how does Drupal help with the flexibility to follow multiple approaches there are multiple parts of Drupal that they could touch on the community is I mean for a reason and and then yeah obviously the path of each person is unique people and technology can help then shape it but yeah it's up to really people how they shape that and and I really think I told you all this at the beginning I'm not in leader anymore but to me nothing has to say I'm part of a team we are like seven, eight people we have juniors we have more experienced people and I just try to help when I can just because what I like so I believe that's it all the slides are in there so just feel free to take them and any more questions in the last minute then thank you all and let's go let's go yeah I mean we'll be around yeah and I'm probably going to can I switch over? Fran see you at the time alright, yeah I'll go there they're really interesting topic yeah you are a program yeah I was pretty much the same path as Fran actually I had some yeah how are you? yeah, how are you? I'm fine oh yeah brilliant growing dupo it's complicated topic yeah it's a challenge especially when you throw dupo to the question yeah this is I mean I've been in dupo development for 12 years and I haven't been able to solve this problem so it's constantly complicated and you have to try to think of a way to simplify it problem is if you're looking to hire trained people the price is going to be like this yeah if you're looking to hire juniors then your learning curve plus the time that you spend training as well as that's the reason why I mentioned the challenges is like because yeah in my previous company they really wanted that they wanted to hire juniors just because of the price because they didn't want to pay that but yet then then I need it to be honest it's like yeah you cannot produce high quality things in midday time in midday budget with that kind of people so yeah we really need it to to get to a midday point midday ground and with that knowledge the complexity besides it doesn't guarantee that these developers will not leave once you've trained them yeah so you keep having this kind of ever ending problem yeah, Amiga at the end of the day Amiga is just everywhere and you've been talking about people and people in that sense doing the work