 Andy and Mary of the Vermont Folklife Center, we're so glad to have you here on the Caramongers, and you are in the privacy of your own homes, but the public realm here. And I know you've been working really hard on a number of projects, and we'd love to hear how you have been managing your work as an organization first, and then some of the projects you've been working on. So Andy, why don't you start by telling us how you went remote two months ago? Yeah, it happened pretty abruptly, like a lot of places. We sort of decided around the 14th that we were shutting down. In the run-up, I think we purchased a WebEx subscription. Why WebEx and not Zoom? I'm a contrarian, maybe that's why. And then we gradually began the process of trying to get our overwhelmed IT support people to create remote access to our server so that the archival team could still consider and continue to work with the digital stuff. And as that all kind of went down, we began to sort of think about, well, we can't do much, what can we do? What are the things that are earmarks of this moment then and still now that resonate with us? And how can we put the kind of work we do into action to help people? And the place we arrived was this idea of a project called Listening in Place. Mary coined the name. So thumbs up to Mary for coming up with that one. And we basically thought, what are we experiencing? And we were certainly experiencing isolation from each other. We imagined that there were a lot of other people, even if they were at home with others, who were probably in a similar boat. So, okay, we thought isolation, our tools, what matters? And our heads went back to Tropical Storm Irene and the way the Folklife Center began to support people in the recovery from that with a series of events we called Story Circles. And these were gatherings of people from the same communities all getting together and talking about what the storms experience was like, what the immediate aftermath, and then over time, the experience of recovery. So we thought, okay, our attitude then was how can we help people maintain these connections to each other, particularly when their communities are isolated from one another in that case. And how can we apply that kind of stuff now? So we started off with this idea of the Sound Archive, which was focused on getting people to talk to the folks that they were isolated with, and to take the opportunity to document the day as it unfolded. And the thing that was really interesting, and that Mary's input on this too, with talking to people, because we have been, is like how common the experiences are, how time gets simultaneously protracted and condensed, what it means to be, what it means to routines, what it means to all this stuff. And from there, we thought, okay, people are, some people have taken on that idea. Other people are interested in talking to folks like this over these conferencing systems to make these similar kind of connections to check in with each other. So we kind of modified it a bit. Kathleen is the one who suggested our executive director, hey, why don't we try to do these virtual story circles? Bring people together and get them to talk to each other. And that led to that idea. I got as a folklorist really into seeing all the masks people were making. And this idea of how creating material culture, how making something is both an expression of identity, but also in this case, very much about making and maintaining connections to other people while you're in isolation, whether people are giving them away or selling them. So that really struck me. Then we thought, okay, how can we actually use our own kind of powers, right? Like we're all interviewers to in the service of this project. So we developed this other unit called Virtual Vox Pops, which was inspired by Erica Heilman, the producer of Rumble Strip. I was talking to Erica about what she'd been up to to get a sense of her programs, which were very focused on people's COVID experiences. And Erica, if you know Erica kind of, and this was on the phone, but this is what would have happened in person is, you know what you guys got to do? You just got to get the phone book and start cold calling people and then recording the calls. And I was like, Erica, that is absolutely brilliant. It's not something we can do for all sorts of reasons. But what you've done is triggered this idea that we can use our phones to reach out to other people. You know, and part of the interest for us was, let's use the platforms we have that people are interacting with as the platforms for documenting people's experiences. So, you know, I was calling people a lot more on the phone than I had in years, frankly. And we thought, okay. And then New York Times released an article about sort of Verizon traffic and how all this voice traffic had suddenly increased in this unanticipated way. So we're like, okay, we'll use the phone to do these interviews because the phone is one of these symbols of this period. We'll use online conferencing platforms as a way to bring people together for story circles because there's so much about this moment. And, you know, I was talking with someone recently like, well, what about the sound quality on these things? I'm like, it's not great, but you know what? That's the sound of now. You know, that's what we're experiencing. So that's kind of the broad arc of the project. You know, to be able to create something new and innovative in the way that you're describing when you're not all in the same space is a different kind of experience, isn't it? Mary, what was it like for you to come up with the listening in place as part of a team at the Folklife Center? Yeah, you know, I think it helps to know that everybody is kind of going through similar changes and adaptations. And I think there was a lot of empathy among the staff and patients as we figured out how to brainstorm and collaborate. And, you know, it was challenging kind of, there was a sense of urgency at the beginning to kind of respond in the moment. And I think there were several moments of having to walk that back a little bit and realize that, you know, whenever things came together would be the right time. But, you know, the other part of this is I think we are drawing on and building on, as Andy said, a lot of the skill sets, a lot of the tools and resources that we have established at the Folklife Center over many years, but like everyone, this is just kind of doing this really extreme pivot to see how those things can serve us under these new circumstances. And so a lot of it was just sort of setting up new pathways of communication. Obviously, we're thinking a lot more about what our digital platforms look like, social media and our website, which we were doing already, but probably like any small nonprofits could have always been doing better, you know? So it's a nice opportunity to think about ways to reach people and community and Vermonters digitally and virtually. And then it was also kind of a rapid research project on all fronts to figure out the best way to support people in having these kind of exchanges. So interviewing each other or using, you know, remote tools to talk to people that they're not physically in place with. I really witnessed this, you know, that search for resources on a lot of different fronts, among radio makers and audio producers, among oral historians, you know, various communities of practice that I'm part of. Everyone was kind of going back and forth and it was actually really inspiring to see the degree of sort of mutual support and collaboration and like no competition. Everyone was just like, yeah, what's the best, you know, what's the best platform? I used this app, don't use this one, you know? So compiling all those resources so that mainly so that people can find a way to transcend all of these like technologies that were suddenly so, you know, have a whole new meaning and role in all of our lives, but we are really hoping that by offering this platform and this idea of interviewing, listening to the experience of others and, you know, sharing of individual experience that those built connections in spite of, you know, all of the clunky technologies that we have to employ to get there. Yeah, I noticed that too with the virtual facilitators. There was a facilitators group that I just hopped on and it was the same kind of thing. What's the best way to host a meeting for 200 people and how do you create rooms and all of those things? So tell me, how are you finding the people willing to talk for both projects, but let's just start with listening and play. Yeah, you know, it's very much an emerging process. I'd say the foundation of the project was to kind of assemble a few new web pages that kind of presented the concept and a way to get in touch with us for people who were interested and some guides that walk you through how both, you know, technically what recording technology to use to do an interview and then some thoughts on the practice of interviewing, you know, how to be a good interviewer and some question prompts and ideas as a place to start and kind of our philosophy on interviewing, which stems from this idea that each individual is the expert of their own experience. So how do you do an interview in such a way that kind of respects that and why do we think that's a good idea? So that's all there. And so that kind of sets up the opportunity for kind of people to come to us and we've put out some press releases and some messaging through our platforms, newsletters and social media. So we've had some of our constituency get in touch and just try this out. The Folklife Center works with a lot of educators. So one thing that's happened is we've had a few classes, both we had one UBM class and also a sort of place-based high school program coming out of Burlington High School called Burlington City and Lakes. So a few examples of teachers sort of assigning the project to a class, which was really nice. And that's often a kind of model that we go for. You know, we as folklorists and ethnographers are interested in certain ideas and questions, but we're much more energized when there is sort of a movement from within a community or group to use the tools of interviewing and recording for their own ideas and inquiry. So along that vein, we're also looking for ways to partner with communities. I've just started this week doing some interviews with people who are involved with Project Independence down in Middlebury, which is an elderly services group. And that, you know, all of the people that that organization serves, usually in person, either bringing people together in their facility or going to visit with people in their homes. They've switched all their programming to online platforms. So they're already reaching out to their people every day and trying to give them tools and projects, things to do and ways to connect. So we've kind of plugged into that network and are doing a series of, in that case, virtual boxpops with members of that community. And that feels really special to kind of talk to a group that's already connected in some way and kind of offer them this new layer. So thank you so much, Andy. You were talking earlier about some of the themes that you've heard and maybe you could comment on what you're hearing, what are people saying as they operate in isolation? And then, Mary, you could maybe add on. Let's start, Andy. I think Mary can speak to that better because she's been facilitating the story circles. The thing that I've just found remarkable is that these experiences are so generalizable, you know? And I'll find myself feeling things and thinking things and then discover other people are feeling and thinking very similar things. And the commonality of this experience is fascinating, at least for people in my position. I mean, that's the other point we make that when we conceived of this project, we were very aware of the fact that not everybody's working from home with two or three people around. Some people are still working. Some people are out of work. Some people are alone. So there are definitely spheres of experience that overlap and some that don't. But I'll pass that one to Mary. Thanks, Andy. Mary, what are you hearing in the interview? Yeah, it's been wonderful to do the story circles, you know, now that it's been, I think, nine weeks since the state of emergency was declared. Is that right? Don't quote me on that. I think it was two. I think it was two weeks. Joking. Oh, I was like, what? It's always been this way. It's always been like this. Stop being there. So at this point, we've done some kind of early on and now we're doing another round. So it's interesting to see how things have changed and progressed in terms of what's on people's mind. I think the earlier story circles, there was a lot of discussion of kind of, almost like the people's origin stories in this pandemic. Like this is very much like a before and after story. And like when was the moment when it really became real? You know, people have different touchstones, whether it was a change in their work setup or what was happening with their kids in school. With some of the elderly folks, it's been interesting to hear for them that they already weren't going out a lot, but it still feels different. And how are they perceiving this big change, even if it's not a dramatic change in kind of like physical mobility? And now that we're even farther in, I think there's still a lot of exploration of time, people kind of trying to mark the passage. And just a lot of, almost everyone at some point, I think references that the tension between kind of the terrible overwhelming stress and anxiety and grief that's present right now, and then sort of moments of revelation or what some people might call silver linings and just the constant vacillation between those two experiences and guilt and guilt around feeling some sense of a gift being given in meshed and also a really challenging situation. Would you say that this project is a kind of silver lining for you? I, yeah, it's hard. It's certainly a great opportunity. I don't know. We spend a lot of time on all fronts in our work, kind of trying to vouch for the really deep importance of listening to individual experience and using that as a knowledge base in the world. And this feels like a very ripe time for that. You know, at the same time, I miss being able to like truly make eye contact with someone that I'm interviewing and yeah, a whole host of other things, but there's definitely moments of feeling like this is a gift. So assuming this pandemic continues, which I think is a safe assumption and reopening is not gonna be as cut and dry as we might have thought in the past. This will be a kind of rolling reintegration into society. Do you see this project continuing? Do you see it maybe taking another form? Any thoughts about your work going forward? Maybe, Andy? Yeah, I mean, I'd answer that with a both. I think we see it continuing and we see it changing. You know, we're in no hurry to kind of put it to bed any more so than anybody wants to put this whole thing to bed. So we foresee continuing to work on this in different ways as we're able over what we've been saying is at least the next nine months because I think this is gonna be with us at least that long and how we think about things and how things are different. I mean, that's one of the things people talk about. How are things different now? Will they ever be the same? So these whole notions of difference and sameness have a whole different kind of implication now that we've experienced this rupture in our common experience. So yeah, we're gonna keep rolling with it in various ways. There are already some things. One of the things we conceived of with the story circle model was trying to encourage communities to do the same thing and to say to them, we're here to help. Whether you just wanna use our guidelines, whether you want us to turn on the machine and let you guys use our platform, whether you want us to facilitate it. So we're hopeful that more communities around the state will pick this up and start doing them, start using the technology toward that end. You did work during Hurricane Irene. Do you see similarities in what people are talking about, Andy? Well, one of the things I'll say is a similarity of identification at least on the part of people like us. I was recently talking to colleagues in New York City at an organization called City Lore and they're framing their response to this with reference to 9-Eleven, which was their massive analog, I won't even call it an equivalent. And for us, that's immediately where our heads went, that this is something that has tremendous impact on a mass of people. And the main difference is that for those of us in Chittenden County, Tropical Storm Irene was kind of just a really windy, rainy day. And for folks in the upper, in the Med River Valley and elsewhere, it was a totally different experience. And that's the distinction here, that this has hit in all of us collectively and individually and also in similar kinds of ways, to what you were saying before about the idea of broadcasting these, for instance, is that we had a discussion early on. We were like, well, will we have an audience? And because with the permission of the people who were participating, community members could gather as a part of the story circles in Irene. And my thought was, well, okay, we can do this and there'll be a group of speakers and then we'll have an audience that's listening, that's bearing witness to what's being said. And for a bunch of reasons, logistical and otherwise, we decided not to do that. In part, because we definitely conceived this as broadly as not moth, something other than moth. So I'm just thinking in direct contrast then and there. But it's interesting to say, I've got to roll my head back and think about some of the themes that emerged in Irene, but so much of it was about loss and crisis and togetherness and physical togetherness, like the idea that people were getting together and cooking all the meat because the power was out. So in a lot of ways, I feel like this is, it's related but different. I think that resilience is probably a pretty big theme. Vermont prides itself on that. We are able to weave together on a level that a lot of states obviously can't because of their size. And I would imagine that possibly going through Irene so recently, relatively, there's kind of systems of support in place that could be overlaid on the virtual that maybe we were a little bit more ready because of that. I just wonder about that out loud, but. Yeah, I mean, resilience and civility, I think have been the two things that have emerged for me thinking about this, you know, in Irene as well. Yeah, well, I like my favorite part of this period is how everyone, no one cuts in front of you when you're trying to get into the supermarket. Everybody's just standing way back saying, you go, no, you go. I love that, just so glad that we're back to know you first. Yeah, it's one of those older Vermont cultural traits that's definitely been reinforced right now. Definitely, well, I wanna thank you both for telling me about the project. But before we wrap up, I'm curious to hear how you personally are adjusting to this period in your own homes and with your own families and maybe Mary, you know, what have been high points for you? You could talk about the low points too, but how would you describe this period for yourself? Yeah, there's been high and low points for sure. I am lucky to kind of be sheltering in two places. I live part-time down in Lincoln at my father's house and part-time with my partner up in Burlington. So I've kind of been doing 10 days on, 10 days off in each location. So I have kind of a city and country pattern going on and, you know, having two different places to be, feels like wild variety in the context of the pandemic. So that's nice. Today, I'm speaking to you from Lincoln and, you know, we're lucky to have some nice woods and a river nearby. So the balm of nature has been really important and I've really been enjoying watching the birds outside my dad's house. We have some nice bird feeders and I got out my actual DSLR camera. You know, I'm so phone-based that I hadn't picked it up in a really long time, but I have a pretty good zoom lens and have been taking pictures of the birds and, you know, we're kind of having this spring migration, a lot of special bird visitors. And, you know, so just being here in the living room next to the window all day, every day has allowed me to see things a lot more deeply. So that's nice. And, you know, the remote working is challenging, you know, to feel connected in this way on the computer and then turn off the zoom and be like, oh, it's still just me and my computer, you know. So, you know, the outdoors gives me a nice base in the tangible and the real. Thank you, Mary. How about you, Andy? Yeah, I'm fortunate in that I'm one of those people who is perfectly happy never to have to leave the house, you know, so since everything else is pretty stable in our lives, you know, and everybody here is a homebody. I'm here with my wife who pretty much works from eight in the morning till five at night, consistently in front of the computer and zoom meetings right where I'm sitting. In fact, I had to book this spot on purpose within 10. You know, and it's, I mean, the silver lining thing is fascinating, right? Because thus far after two months, my wife and I and our two daughters, they're 12 and soon to be 11 this weekend, we're, I'm really enjoying it, you know. So it's like I'm incredibly grateful to be in a position where I can say this is, you know, they're negatives, tons of them, but like the positives super outweigh them in our family world, you know. It's also been an excellent opportunity for me to work on myself and all sorts of different flavors of my crazy as they emerge and reflect on them. You know, in the beginning, I was like spraying bleach solution on everything that came home from the grocery store. And, you know, I've said, you know what? There's a valid concern, but maybe I don't have to go that. You know, so stepping, you know, so it's been interesting on all sorts of levels. Plus we have a new kid and we adopted who's been really afraid of us and since we're around all the time, he's been coming out a lot more. Not this guy, this is the older kitty, so it's, you know, it's scary. I have friends who have lost parents in other parts of the country. I have friends in New York City who have been in the midst of insanity, you know. And I lost my father, not from COVID, but he was Alzheimer's and he had passed, you know. And it's the insulation and the closeness of the people around me like it has been helpful. I'll put it that way. Well, it's interesting when everyone's in seclusion, there's no fear of missing out. No foma. But the spring is happening and thank goodness, this is in May and not in November. That's basically my silver lining. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I wanna thank you both very much for the work that you're doing in helping to preserve Vermont culture and to be thinking so creatively about how to do it. And I really appreciate your time. So thank you, Andy and Mary, for joining us in the Vermont Folklife Center. Thank you for having us. Thanks.