 Let's get started. Thank you for joining us at Mechanics Institute for our online program. The writer's lunch is a casual and virtual brownback lunch activity on the third Friday of each month. Look forward to craft discussion and formal presentations on all forms of writing and excellent conversation. My name is Niko Chen and I am the program manager at Mechanics Institute. For those of you who are joining us for the first time here, welcome. Mechanics Institute was founded in 1854 and is one of San Francisco's most vital literary and cultural centers in the heart of the city. Mechanics Institute features a general interest library, an international chess club, ongoing author and literary programs, and a cinema film series. A recent article in the San Francisco standard describes us as the coolest library in downtown San Francisco and a remote work sanctuary. Come see our historical landmark building for yourself by joining us for a free tour, which happens every Wednesday at noon to 1 p.m. We also have a special evening tour scheduled for Friday, November 17th, starting at 5 p.m. Refreshments will be available during the welcome reception and complimentary beverages will be shared. Please also visit our websites, www.milibrary.org to learn more about our upcoming programs. We also offer a plethora of free events for our Mechanics Institute members, such as our next storytelling showcase on October 25th. Join us for an evening of laughter and storytelling. Local author and host of the moth, Corey Rosen, will host a dynamic night of storytelling developed in his Your Story World told workshops. Come hear stories and jokes being told for the first time with some performers making their stage debut. So once again, this is every last Wednesday and the next one is October 25th and we start this event at 6 p.m. on site at Mechanics Institute. To find courses, events, and more, remember to go to milibrary.org and click on Events on our top menu bar to begin searching and registering for the course or event of your choice. Please also mark your calendars for the writer's lunch on Friday, November 17th. The topic for that writer's lunch is food writing and telling heritage stories through food with Viola Butoni, Camper English, and Henry Sue. This event will be moderated by Cheryl Jay-Busey-Boutet. I am going to be dropping the link into the chat in case anyone is interested in registering for this next writer's lunch. Let me go ahead and add that to our chats and there we go. This month's theme for our writer's lunch is Becoming of Age Story. Today, our moderator, Cheryl Jay-Busey-Boutet will be talking to two moving authors, Dara R. Williams and Daniel Bobcat. Isidra Mencos is unable to join us today and she will be joining us sometime in the near future. Award-winning author and Pushkart Prize nominee, Cheryl Jay-Busey-Boutet is an award-winning, is an Oakland multi-disciplinary writer whose autobiographical and fictional short story collections, along with her lyrical and stunning poetry, artfully succeed in getting across deeper meanings about the politics of race and economics without breaking out of the narrative. An inaugural Oakland Poet Laureate runner-up, she is also a popular teacher, literary reader, presenter, storyteller, curator, and emcee host for literary and poetry events. We also have Dara R. Williams. She is a lifelong Oakland resident whose family was a part of the Great Migration Movement. As a family historian, Dara researchers and writes her family story as well as mentors others. Her fiction, non-fiction, and memoir writings have been published in over two dozen publications. She is writing a Great Migration novel, Serving Tea at Miss Bells, and has published a preview of her upcoming collection of childhood stories. In my backyard, Stories of Growing Up in Oakland. As a current Oakland Voices Fellow, she is engaging in media digital storytelling about her beloved city. Dara is a member of Afro-Serial Writers Workshop, Black Girl Rights, and Women Who Submit Organizations. Exploring the relationship between myth and oral and family history, Dara honors the voices of her ancestors. She is also the proud grandmother of two. Last but not least, we also have Daniel Bogger joining us for our conversation today. Daniel grew up in the small town featured in his soon-to-be-release Coming-Up Age story, Lightning Bugs and Aliens. He served in Vista, the Domestic Peace Corps, attended law school in a theological seminary, worked as a community organizer and managed housing in New York City's toughest neighborhoods before moving to California. His debut novel, Normal Illusions, was described by Kirkus Reviews as, a strong start to a new series accomplished, ambitious crime fiction launching a sensitive, complex hero in a promising array of supporting characters. A multi-layered tale that has shades of California noir a la Chinatown that 1974 moving starring Jack Nicholson and Faye Denoway and recognized by the American Film Institution as among the greatest films in American cinema history. Daniel has two grown children and lives in the Northern California foothills, not far from his two granddaughters. We at Mechanics Institute are delighted to bring these three wonderful folks together for a free-flowing conversation today, which will also include a Q&A with the audience. So please remember to add your questions to the chats and I will read them aloud later on during today's writer's lunch. Take it away, Cheryl. I will, thank you, Nico, very, very much. And Daniel and Dara, thank you so much for being here. I think this is going to be a very interesting chat having two writers writing about coming of age, one from my hometown of Oakland, California, and the other from a small town in Ohio. And I have to say I have read both of your works and there are more similarities like I always find that people would imagine. But let's get into the conversation. You know, when you write coming of age, and I've done quite a bit of it, in fact, that's how I started out with my writing, you can either come from the child point of view or in the child world, or you can do it from the adult world or something in between. Tell me, which do you favor as a writer and why, the child world or the adult world? Well, my story is told primarily through the eyes of five 13-year-olds during the summer of 1960. And being as I am the age that I am right now, that's a long time back for me. And so, you know, I approached it from the point of view of as someone who is older now, recollecting and remembering the things in his childhood that meant the most to him. So I chose to pursue it in that way because, you know, I couldn't quite get into being 13 anymore. Yeah, yeah, understood. Dara, how about you? I agree with Daniel somewhat. Especially with the open stories, I had to take a look at how what was going on from ages four years old to from my memories up until high school. So look through the eyes of the child, tell the story from that point of view. And then at times, perhaps bring in the grown-up sensibility, but telling the point of view from the child is works for me in most ways. So Dara, when you got ready to sit down and actually craft it, what did you use as the most significant or center point for your story, for the 4-H to branch out? Or did you have one? Well, I was looking at my neighborhood. So a friend of mine and I have been talked about this number of times. We said, we're tired of making excuses for having a happy childhood. So I grew up in Oakland and I had a happy childhood. I was in a neighborhood with black, white, Asian, Latino. These are people that I knew or families knew each other. And so I saw things through the eyes of community. There was community at the time. And in doing these stories, I was trying to bring that remembrance of community. I know times have changed and this is, we're talking, I'm aging myself over 50 years. However, I do believe it's important that community, and I'm sure there are some neighborhoods in Oakland that may have a community. But that was my purpose, was to show a community in a time when we were just, like I said, we just walked the streets. We walked everywhere, we did everything together and we had great times. Not everything is perfect, but. Oh yeah, I share that with you. We had, we had our Roy Rogers little faith courses and our hats and all of that stuff and our bicycles with the cards and the spokes of the wheel. And we had a great time. How about you, Daniel? What was the core that you branched out from or was there one? Sure, and I also was fortunate to have a very happy childhood, like Dara speaks about with hers. In fact, I was struck by how much alike, in so many ways, growing up as a 13-year-old in Twinsburg, Ohio was like growing up as an eight-year-old in Oakland. And that, the joy that she finds in her daily romings, very much like the joy that we found in our daily romings where we just got turned loose in the morning and our mom said, be home for lunch and make sure you're home for dinner when your dad gets home, otherwise it's gonna get mad and you gotta have your chores done and so on. So I mean, so many, just so many, many parallels, even in what would appear to most people to be two very disparate environments, not so on that level. And of course, I grew up in a small town which at that time was about 2,500 people, three stop lights, two lane traffic, seemed like most people knew one another. And the community, the town was completely integrated. More black kids in my kindergarten school than white kids. No Asian people at all, no Hispanic people at all. And the town was entirely, they're completely integrated and happily so among the kids and lots of people. The town was entirely racially segregated. All the black people live in one place, Twinsburg Heights and certainly growing up as I grew older and I had friends who lived in the Heights and we all went to school together and were active in any one of a number of different things. It became more and more, I became more and more aware of the fact that there was this sort of invisible veil around the Heights and how come things were, how come the people in the Heights didn't have, didn't always have indoor bathrooms? Didn't always have indoor bathrooms? How come the people in the Heights didn't always have running water but they had to have their own well and so on? And we never, you know, at the time, we're out there riding bikes and having fun and experiencing nature and hanging out in trees for a good portion of the day. We just, we didn't really notice that. But, you know, but this story is a lot about that town and why that town was the way it was and how that what really was structural racism handed down in a very quiet way that people didn't say much about. And the kids at that point for the most part didn't really care about it because we were having happy childhoods. So that is the what of it but why did you decide to write it? What made you, what propelled you to write it, Daniel? I felt because I was so fortunate in so many ways to have this kind of like Tom Sawyer childhood and the town gave us that, I felt an obligation, I felt almost a, well, I felt a real responsibility to tell the story because I was otherwise I felt it would be lost. And, you know, it's a heck of a story. Yeah, it is. You know, I mean, it's a heck of a story. I mean, the town has a crazy quirky history, two identical twin brothers journey by horseback to Ohio. And make a deal and for $20 and an agreement to build a set aside six acres for a public square fund school for the merchants and farmers who live there. They get to name the town whatever they want. So they decided they're gonna call they're gonna call the town of Twinsburg and they go on to marry two twin sisters, hold their property, hold their property in common, live in the same house, have the same number of children, dive the same disease on the same day and by their own decree are buried in the same grave. Now, I have never heard of another town or a city with a history like that. And this story happens in and around that graveyard among other places where those brothers are buried and the five 13-year-olds in the story hang out, smoke camels or coals or do whatever and talk about the day's business and how they see it. So the thought of like this story being lost just not right. So that's what propelled you. What about you, Deira? I know you said earlier that you're tired of apologizing for having a happy childhood in Oakland and I am right with you on that and still having a happy life here even with all the bad stuff that's said about the city. What other things propelled you to write your stories? Well, if we don't tell our stories, it'll be forgotten. And this time, the time that I grew up in Oakland will be forgotten because over the years, I hate to use the term gentrification all the time. It's an easy cop-out term. However, the city has time, things are gonna change with time. The city is so different and a lot of people just don't realize when you talk to people who live in Oakland who have been here even 20 years, they don't know what Oakland was like in the late fifties and the sixties when I grew up. They did not know that they had certain, that there were certain things going on and the neighborhoods. So to me, it's a part of keeping history, keeping history alive for the children and grandchildren so that people will know that Oakland has gone through a lot of changes, gone through a lot of different generations, but people are here with stories and there are a lot of stories to be told. So to be clear, my book is now, it's a preview. This in my backyard and it says, stories of growing up in Oakland are preview. So this was something I put together because I was going around talking about these stories, but I have a compilation compiling of stories. I have about 60, I can have more that I am getting ready for publication. So there's so much more. Like I said, goes up to high school from my earliest memory at four years old up to high school. And there are a lot of people that people might know. Yeah, so that brings up my next question. How do you deal with or approach writing about family and friends when you're writing these coming of age stories? We have a whole segment on the writer's lunch about dealing with that, but inside of these coming of age stories, how do you approach that? That's a good question. And that can be a tough issue to cope with. So, I was, when I was writing, Lightning Bugs and Aliens, I had the, I made a point of talking to the brother of one of the characters in the book. And in this case, that character was based on a single person, not the case with respect to anybody else there, but based on a pretty much single person. And he, when I discussed the book with him, he said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, something like that. So I actually did change my, the development of that character a little bit based on what his brother was reminding me of. And I felt really good about that because of course I wanted to get the story right. So I did spend time talking to, to some people about it. But I tried to be sensitive to that because you know, you're talking about somebody's history and their reputation and sometimes their family. And so in my case, you know, it's just like I'm saying, well, this is not based on a single character. This is based on, you know, two or three people and maybe something to do all from that. So, but it's a delicate, it can be a delicate issue and you wanna feel really good and comfortable with how you handle it. So... Right. And Jira, how about you? How did you approach writing about family and friends and your coming of age stories? So fortunately, in respect to the Oakland stories, I don't have not that negative things didn't happen. I have a story about Tyrone that was killed on with his handmade scooter killed on 23rd Avenue, ran into a bus. But I don't really think that much about, there's a couple of names I've changed, you know, things that happened that were a little negative. But I just really, a lot of it is centered around me and my immediate family and they know, they all know what I'm doing. They know the different things that happen. I might have to change a couple of teachers' names. I've thought about it, however, but I don't really get too riled up about that. Now, actually the novel that I'm completing, there are more things there that are tough because even though it's a novel, it's loosely based, Serving Tea at Miss Bells is loosely based on the four women for coming from four different Southern States, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas and Virginia. And these women are loosely based on the women that my mother knew, you know, different areas. And so, and all the scenes are fictionized, but there's a lot of similarities to, you know, women in her sorority. She was, and my mother's a teacher and a lot of things that happened. So there's, for me, the novel is more, has more real, more telling scenes than my life growing up in Oakland. Yeah, okay, I got you. I'm having the same experience as a matter of fact. In some of my coming of age stories, I did have to change names because I had some very interesting experiences that, and when you talk about changing the teacher's name, I was going to put the teacher's real name and then I looked her up, you know, you have to do your research as well. Right. And I found out that she was still alive. So I said, oh, I can't use her real name. Right. So that being said, Nico, do we have any questions from the audience yet? So far we don't have any questions, but I really highly recommend for our audience members to take that time and put their questions into the chat box. There is a question that emerged for me. Is it okay if I ask that question? Yeah, of course. Go ahead. Yeah, so when I think about coming of age story, I think of that word, I'm not quite sure how to pronounce it, but it's like Bill Dunn's Roman, right? And it's like supposed to be something that you take a lesson away from. Is that something that you guys do? Like, is there like a lesson that readers should be taking away from your coming of age story? Well, I think that's part that, for me, and I think I'm sure for everybody else here. You know, part, you ask, why did you write this book? What inspired you to write this story? Well, today can inspire you to write this story. Because, you know, there are things that are of relevance, obviously, of deep relevance to what's happening today. And people need to be reminded of that because there are a lot of people walking around outside, maybe even the majority of people walking around outside who basically don't see a lot of things that are staring them straight in the face. And they, you know, they need, let me put it in a very gentle way. They need some reminders. They need maybe a little kick in the pants to, like, recall a little more of that morality that they used to recognize just naturally when they were children. Exactly. And so that and the relevance to, you know, to wanting to say something which is entirely relevant and entirely topical, that's necessary. You know, if we're gonna move forward in a positive direction, people gotta be doing that. You know, we were talking earlier before about middle school. That age in my granddaughter is turning 13. She's in middle school. And I look at her and from that respect, the stories can be told as teachable moments. And I have mentored middle school students in writing their stories with a chapter 510 department make believe I have worked with middle grade students and I can see some of their struggles, you know, growing up here and the different maybe lifestyles they have. And so it's an important time of your life and those moments should be captured. And if I can do that, if I can tell a story and capture that child's angst or joy or trepidation, I am just, you know, I'm right there to tell the story. And that's what we all are doing coming of age at a time when this world is like it is. What is going on in the minds of young people in this time? Yeah, I guess my mission with the coming of age was to always show that we are more the same than we are different and also to dispel some of the stereotypes that people have about certain people who live in certain places and look certain ways and to strip all of that away to show that we are all really wanting the same things out of life. So when you get down to that part of it, you have to be fearless in what you write because you can't, if you hold back you're really not doing the job. When did you feel that you have come of age, that you came of age? Or do you think you have yet, Dara? Oh, that's a good question. I would say that my awakening, there were several factors. My coming of age was the year 1968. Well, I'll go back to 1963. And it was 12th, eight year. And a lot of things happened that summer of 1963. Our family traveled back to Arkansas. We went, always went back, not always but every two or three years, we traveled back to the home state of Arkansas. And I have a story coming of age in 1963 when I was confronted with racism, real racism when we were traveling through Dallas. And so we were accosted and jeered at, we were in our 1963 Buick. We were jeered at, laughed at. And my dad kept saying, look straight ahead, don't say a word. And I remember my brother saying, why are they laughing at us? And he said, look straight ahead. And I saw the hurt in my father's eyes. They had not prepared us, they had not prepared us for that because then we were looking for a hope, took us several hours to find somewhere to stay because everything was segregated. So we usually drove straight through, but at a particular time, I had gotten car sick. So we had to stop several times. But that in itself, and then that same summer, Meagher Evers was killed. We know later on in the year the president was killed. And then 1968, it was another series when I was in high school, 17 in high school, we have the death of Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy. And all those things weighed on me. And I remember becoming angry at that time, angry at the changes that were going on in Oakland, the Black Panthers Party had started. And I found myself angry and hurt at a lot of things were changing. And I saw where some of my friendships that I had with other races were being absolved. So yeah, that time of all of that is about coming of age, about reassessing who you are, what's going on, what is your next steps? Daniel? Well, so many of the things which Dara related to are things which obviously were really significant parts of my growing up. And my growing up as a young man and as a middle-aged man and so on. So I would just echo so much of what she said. The Black Panthers won in Twinsburg, Ohio, I could say. But had they come, I'm sure they would have been welcomed by a few people, you know. Thank you. Do we have questions now from the audience? We sure do. So I wanted to read both Shade's question and Patricia's question because I think they are both interrelated questions. From Shade, she asked, I wanted to know how you navigate writing as teenagers or young children without reverting to the adult voice or trying to solve problems for your protagonist in a mature way. That's from Shade. And Patricia has a question that's quite related. She asked, when writing a coming of age memoir, is it more compelling to write it as a story from a child's point of view or looking back as an adult and adding commentary? Dara? So most of my stories are from the child's point of view, but there are stories that do come from a grown-up point of view. So with having so many stories, I was able to do that. And yeah, that's a good question. It's a fine line between taking the adult, taking over, well, it should have been this way or it could have been this way, but to make that clear, tell it from the voice of the child first. And then if possible, then write another story and decide which is the best way told. It might be told better from a sensibility of an adult looking down at a particular time. It depends on the circumstance. Yes. Daniel? I think you just have to find what your own comfort level is in some ways in terms of doing that because you can't say, oh, it's only gonna be the voice of that 10-year-old. I don't know that you can say that before you start writing the story, before you craft the story and in the process of doing that, then you're going to find that spot where it's sort of the merging of the two and you may feel like, well, I can't really give this, I can't infuse this story unless I have this more mature voice perhaps to add to it or unless I have this more youthful voice to add to it. And I'll even chime in on this one because I have found that I just strictly write from the perspective that my memory and my muse tell me to. And that goes to Daniel's comfort statement. I have some coming-of-age stories that I have written completely from my child's perspective. At the age I was when they occurred, one of my first stories was Ben Chickens and Miss Ann, which is a story about my going to Texas when I was five years old, which was really a coming-of-age knockout punch for me coming from California to Texas and all of that met in the 1950s. And my perspective in that story is totally from that five-year-old perspective, even to the language and the way I phrased things and how I saw them from a child's view. And then in other stories where I am remembering things and going back and not having that much clarity, I write it from the memory of the adult that I was at the time I wrote the story or the teenager I was at the time. So it really is about how you feel you are going to be able to give the most clarity and meaning and worth to your story when you write it. Yeah, exactly. I totally agree. Yes, me as well. Yeah. Any other questions out there from the audience? Of course. We have one more question from Shadeh and she asked, how do you cover a passage of time for a coming-of-age story without the book becoming too bulky, for instance, growing up through high school? Dira? Well, mine are stories. They're stories in big nests and in anecdotes. So I take the time with each one. Some of the stories are two or three pages. I have some that are six or seven pages. So I try to take the time needed to tell the story at the time that it happened or depending on what happened. And that's the only way that I could do it is not to stifle it or to make it cumbersome, but to tell the story as best I could with how long it needs to be. Yeah. And then, you know, there's always editing, right? Which is just the real game in writing. Right. Daniel? You all hit it on the head a number of times, consistently. Yeah, it's, you know, the story is gonna take how long the story takes. So, you know, I wrote a novel that was 400 pages long and that's how long it took to tell the story. And there were a lot of characters and, you know, a lot of things happening. Perhaps more, it's certainly more so than in a convention, you know, coming of age story because that's like a mystery, mystery romance. But, you know, it's just gonna take what it's gonna take. You can't let it, you can't make it be long just because you want it to be long longer. Yeah, and you, you know, that's what, like I said, editing is about, you will find that you will say a lot of things that really don't add necessarily to your story. When you are writing, you need to, you need to write with the thought in the back of your head that you have a message you're trying to get across. It's something you're trying to say. And if it takes you 400 pages to say it, it takes you 400 pages. If you can do a flash fiction piece or a short story, then that works too. When you always tell writers, when you have written something and you read it and you sit back and smile, you're all right. You've done it. I see there's Patricia has a question. She does. And I would also recommend for people to add your questions to the chat box. Patricia's question is, can you write a coming of age story and call it memoir when you're making up a lot of the details and dialogue? Well, let me say this first. And then we'll go to Dara and Daniel. I always tell people in my writing classes, the minute that you start trying to remember dialogue, you're already writing fiction. Unless you've taped it somewhere and you have it written down verbatim, you're already writing. Dara, what do you think? Yeah, I agree. I'm thankful that I still have good memory, but you do have to ad-lib here or there because at the time that things happen and I have a story that something happened to my brother in junior high. And so he came home and told us about it. It was very important that it went in my collection so of course, the way he told it, and then it's third hand by the time it gets to me. So, but I have the basic details. I have the people and we know what happened. We know what the issue was. And so that I think in memoir, as you say, unless you have been, unless you I'm the president all the time, you don't know exactly everything that was said and done. You have to make the story believable of course, but you don't have every detail. Daniel? I think that the two of you are so eloquently, have such an eloquent perspective. I mean, you're really, it's good to be here. It's good to be here. Thank you, Daniel. It's good to meet the two of you. It's good to hear you. It's good to hear you. So, yeah, I just, I couldn't say it any more clearly than you already did. You're so well put. One thing I did want to mention that I was, changing the subject for a moment. Dara, I really, if you haven't read Dara's stuff, you got to read it. If you haven't read Cheryl's work, wow. So thank you both. Well, thank you. We say thank you. Thank you. I'm looking forward to reading your book. That sounds fascinating, Ohio. Really interesting. I wanna ask- You know, you had that incident about, no, I'm sorry. You had that incident I just wanted to mention since you were talking about Oakland and we're talking about similarities and things like that. And the element of like, whoa, you have a happy childhood and something, something perhaps horrible happens or something completely unexpected happens. And you, in your description, Dara, we're talking about Tyrone and how Tyrone met his end. And in this, in my story, well, there's somebody who meets their end a bit. And, you know, that element of danger, that element of like realizing that you're not omnipotent or that you are not gonna live forever, you know, but you have somebody who like suddenly dies. For me, rather than Tyrone, it was a black kid who was a half back on the high school football team. And just suddenly he wasn't there anymore because he was killed in an automobile accident. So, you know, that's an inch, I sort of forgot a bit about that and was reminded of it when I was reading another book that oftentimes there is that concern with a certain amount of danger that you weren't aware of before. That's very much something that's talked about in Lightning Bugs and the Aliens because that's a duck and cover and all that sort of thing. So, it's just, you know, it's so many commonalities, so many parallel movements almost in the same direction and kids having it from a writing point of view, but, you know, with the world as a whole, man, there's a lot of uncertainty in the world. You know, look at how kids spend all their time now justifiably so, incredibly so, tuning into climate change and the catastrophic consequences of that. And, you know, back then it was like, hey, there's an atom bomb up there on nobody ever said a thing about it. Right, or what that could do, that's a heck of a load to really drop on kids. And now there's some heavy loads being dropped on kids. It shouldn't be dropped. So, I think, you know, that's what we're all talking about too. We're talking about the relevance between these links and the way that they're connected and the way that we are all connected. Yes, yes. I wanna revisit Patricia's last question for a moment and also acknowledge that I see she has another. When we talk about music dialogue in coming of age stories and memoirs, it can be a slippery slope to do that and not move into the fiction realm. So, what I have done in my coming of age stories is there were memories and events that were so strongly felt for me and things that were said by adults in my life that I remember exactly what they said. And I can use that dialogue. And when I get to the point of not being able to remember what was said, but I remember what happened, then I go into the narrative phase. So that's just a trick for you to know if you can remember exactly what somebody said are pretty close to it, then inside of the coming of age story, which is a true story for you, you can use the dialogue. If you can't, you can only remember what happened, use the narrative form and mix them up. And then you'll be able to write your story with meaning and passion and interest for your readers. Now I also see Patricia had another question. And Cheryl, I just wanted to extend the conversation about dialogue a little bit because a question emerged, which is, when I think back on dialogue, it's not an English for me. I grew up in a Chinese speaking family. And so when it comes to a multilingual experience and you're writing primarily in English, how do you honor that dialogue in a way that gives voice to the people around you who might speak differently? Well, you know what I've done? I have written works where, well, my father spoke French up until the time he was 15, that his family did not speak English. So I have some passages where I have used both French dialogue and then I did the translation. So I honored it that way. But also I honored it by making sure that I knew what was actually said if I was going to write it in English and not change anything. And then in some cases, well, very few, I couldn't quite translate it. It just didn't have the same meaning. And so I did the narrative description of what was happening. Dara, Daniel, do you have any comments on that? I have very little experience with that, but I think I like what you just said as an example. I mean, I had, there were different phrases, of course, Spanish, and I had friends who, we had family friends who were Creole and they were different. The biggest joke was that they only knew, my friends only knew the curse words. Right, exactly, we learned those first. Learn the curse words, so yeah. Yeah, Daniel? No, I'm blown away by the fact that you said that you could remember things and were writing when you were five years old. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah. I have a little scratch stuff, yeah. You should be a superhero. In terms of your, just one more thing on your question, Niko, I actually have relatives, just back to the French thing, I have relatives in France. So when I would remember some of the things my grandfather would say and I couldn't really translate them, I asked my relatives to help me. So, you know, don't ever be afraid to ask for help. And that brings up another question for me. Different people have different memories of the same thing. Of the same thing, yes. siblings. How do you all deal with that? Yeah, siblings, you brought up in the same family, same household, the same way, but siblings will remember things differently. My brother and I remember a certain things differently. He and my sister remembered things differently. So yeah, it's that way. It's, hey, what about you, Daniel? You have that issue? I would just echo what Dara was saying, really. Yeah. Niko, did Patricia have another question? He sure did. And I just wanted to be mindful of our time. We do have five minutes left. So let's keep this one a little more concise, if possible. How do you make your main character multi-dimensional and relatable? Well, Daniel, nobody is, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead, Dara. Go ahead, Dara. Nobody is one way. You're not all good. You're not all bad. You just, if you're gonna draw a particular character, you should sit down and decide what their good characters are and what their flaws are. And weave them together, because as I said, you're not one thing. No, nobody is all one thing. That's right. And if you don't wanna write the bad stuff, leave it out. And if you do, change the names. Good advice. Daniel? Good advice. Ask me that little more precisely. So what was the question again? Yes. Yeah, so from Patricia, how do you make your main character multi-dimensional and relatable? Well, it gotta be multi-dimensional. If the character, I guess, was a multi-dimensional, he or she would probably might wind up being pretty much on the dull side. So you gotta make characters and you gotta make characters relatable because well, this is about, you gotta make life for real on the pages. And you gotta be there. I got a good friend who's not doing so well right now and he signs off all his emails with something that says in order to write about life, you have to have lived it, Ernest Hemingway. And he puts that on all his emails. So, you gotta make it real. You gotta make it real. You gotta make it authentic. You gotta make it genuine. And if it isn't, it isn't. And that's where editing comes in and hopefully you don't drive yourself insane in the process of editing. Yeah. And always remember this writers, you are the writer. You are in control of what you write. So you get to choose and you get to be the one that's happy about your product at the end. When you put it out there into the world, you will be surprised. You will connect with someone. Anyone else? Any last comments? Daniel, Dira? Pleasure to be here. Really enjoyed getting to spend time with y'all and thank you very much for the invitation. Thank you for being here. Likewise, it has been a pleasure to, when you talk things out, you see it clearly and you help yourself in your takeaway tips from both Daniel and Cheryl taking some of what they say that it helps you become a better writer, a better storyteller. So thank you all for the good advice. Thank you both so much. I learned something every time I do one of these lunches and I've learned a lot today. I deeply appreciate the beautiful conversation that y'all had today. I added also the websites of our special guests into the chat box in case you're interested in seeing their works on the interwebs. Also, please remember that we do have a writer's lunch next month as well on November 17th. The theme is on food writing and telling heritage stories through food. So I'm also going to be adding the link here again in our chat box. Many blessings to all of you for being here with us today. Thank you, Dara. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you, Cheryl, for your amazing presence. And we will be also uploading this video on our YouTube channel. So in case you want to go back to something that you sent but you couldn't quite manage to write down, I wrote down like 1239 to look back to that time when I heard something amazing and I wanted to write it down but I cannot quite get to it. You can go ahead and visit our YouTube channel to look at this video again. Have an amazing day and I'll see y'all next month for writer's lunch. Thank you. Thank you, Niko. Thank you, Alyssa, Dara and Daniel. Thank you all. Thank you. Aw, take care everyone. Bye.