 Good morning and welcome to the 11th meeting in 2024 of the local government housing and planning committee. I remind all members and witnesses to ensure that their devices are on silent. We've received apologies today from Willie Coffey and Gordon MacDonald, and Colin Beattie is attending today as an SNP substitute member. I welcome Colin to the meeting and invite him to declare any relevant interests. Thank you, convener. I would simply direct you to my declaration of interests, where I indicate that I'm a registered landlord for one property. Thanks very much. The next item on our agenda today is to decide whether to take items 4 and 5 in private. Are members agreed? We're all agreed. The third item on our agenda today is to take evidence on the building safety and maintenance and housing to 2040 from the minister for housing. The minister is joined by Joe Brown, who is the deputy director of more homes, and Laura Duggan, who is the unit head of housing strategy and delivery, better homes division at the Scottish Government. I welcome our witnesses to the meeting and I'd like to begin by inviting the minister to make a short opening statement. Good morning, convener, and it's always good to be back in the room and back with the committee. So thank you for inviting me to participate in this important discussion. Today, if I may convener, I thought it might be quite helpful to provide a short update and progress with some issues that the committee has been considering lately. I'm delighted that the Housing Scotland Bill has now been introduced to us per commitment in the 23-24 programme for government. The bill delivers on a new deal for tenants and represents a package of measures that will help to improve affordability through implementing a national system of rent controls alongside a range of other rented sector reforms. Together, we represent a robust package of additional rights and protections for tenants that will improve their experience of renting a home. In addition to that, we are determined to tackle a negative and sometimes devastating effect on people's lives of living with damp and mould, although any instance of damp and mould is a cause for concern. I am heartened to see analysis of the latest Scottish House condition survey data that we have shared with the committee, which shows that there has been no significant increase in levels of condensation on mould when viewed across all tenures. However, we have noted a small increase in how homes are guarded by suffering from rising or penetrating damp, which has increased from 3 to 4 per cent between 2019 and 2022. That's why it's so important that urgent action has taken an early part of this year. The Scottish House regulator, along with other stakeholders in the housing sector, responded to this issue through the publication of new guidance for the social sector. We also published updated statutory guidance on the repairing standard, covering the private rented sector. We will continue to consider what is necessary to tackle this scourge as we take forward work on cross-tenure standards. We are committed to tackling this repair and driving a culture in which good maintenance is always given high priority. In response to your letter of 15 March, I provided an update on 19 April on the engagement with Aberdeen City Council on its rehoming programme due to RAC and its homes. We are continuing the work of our cross-sector working group on RAC to understand the extent of our housing stock, engaging with landlords who have identified the presence of RAC. We have been going forward so that we will keep close in contact with the Scottish House regulator and local authorities who have taken a difficult decision to decan residents from our homes. We will ensure that we understand the impact of the long-term remediation plans, particularly on the homeowners that are involved. Looking more broadly, I welcome the work undertaken by the committee to carry out a review of the housing to 2040, and I look forward to seeing the report for your findings in due course. I followed the work so far through your evidence sessions with interest and I'm pleased to note that stakeholders and members of the housing to 2040 strategic board generally appear to still disagree with overall vision in the name set out in the strategy. However, I do appreciate and understand the concerns that are also raised concerning the challenging environment that housing sector and local authorities are facing and the impact that this is having on delivery. It is important to note when we published housing to 2040 in March 2021, we were in the depths of the Covid-19 pandemic, which was swiftly followed by the cost crisis and the fuel crisis, as well as the negative impact of Brexit on the construction supply chain, labour shortages and record high inflation and high pressures. This has been further compounded by a nearly 9 per cent real for terms fall and a UK capital funding for 23 through to 28. Of course, the Government cannot deliver the ambitions and housing to 2040 alone, and we look forward to continuing our work with the housing to 2040 strategic board and the sector more widely to tackle the short-term challenges and maintain the longer-term path to delivering the strategies, aims and visions. I hope that the committee finds this short update helpful. Thanks very much for that update. We're going to do the first session on building safety and maintenance, and then we'll take a short break and then we will come back and focus on the housing to 2040 part. I'd like to begin with a question about something that's been coming up time and time again in committee evidence sessions round tables. Is the need for some kind of central database for information that would hold information on the design, the construction and the maintenance of Scotland's buildings? I think that you were aware of that when you were here on committee. I'm just wondering if that's something that the Scottish Government is considering and perhaps starting with new bills, properties, where that information could be easily obtainable, and obviously that's come up because of things like RAC or the cladding issue, but also Dampen mould and a sense that we could respond to those issues more readily if we understood what buildings were made of. Generally, that's something that the Government would consider. I think at the moment it's kind of looking at it in two or three different ways. We talked about obviously the role of Dampen mould and the role of the housing regulator, if you like, within that. We're obviously doing that with Alaccio on that one as well. When you look at Dampen mould, for example, it comes down to obviously social housing, it comes down to private housing and I think there's an element in looking at that. The RAC issue on its own, I think, is still emerging and engaging. We talked about Aberdeen, for example, and there's the work of the RAC housing and the working group on that again. I think that that work is still emerging and engaging and we continued discussions, I'd say, with the likes of Aberdeen and other local authorities. Just to come back to the question about a database, do you think that that's something that we can actually start to move forward on? I think that it's something that we consider. I think at the moment, because we're kind of engaging around a bit of where the Dampen mould kind of work kind of sits, where the RAC kind of work kind of sits, where the cladding kind of sits, it's almost taken, you know, we move forward with the cladding bill, we're talking about RAC that's still an emerging situation. I think it's a move to progress these in more detail. I think that there's something that could be worth looking at in terms of that, and how we talk about that. As you said, new homes are easier to be part of that register. We talked about the cladding and the noble, we'll be talking about that next week in terms of that, but we talked about the register on that. So I think that there's emerging work in all these areas. I think that when we kind of progress these, it would be worth looking at the suggestion that you mentioned there and how we take it take that forward, because I think that your correct data is really important when we look at this, but I think that we're at the stage at the moment because there are individual pieces of work going on, and I think that that's something that we could look at in a relatively short term, I think, in terms of how we take that forward. Okay, great, thanks. And then just kind of continuing on a kind of connected theme in a way, and I think that the first time I heard about it was in a session on cladding, was the idea of a building MOT, so some kind of regular check on buildings to make sure that maintenance and safety is in place. I just wonder what the Government's view is on a possible introduction of that type of work. Again, I wanted to keep coming back to the cladding issue, and I'm sure that this will come up next week. There are still discussions on going with developers on that issue, one on and about the SBA process, but how do we then take that issue forward in terms of that? There'll be a number of amendments that I think I've been probably put forward by Mr Griffin and Mr Briggs in terms of that, and there'll be others, I'll be the magic coming forward. I think there are still discussions on going with developers around about that, so again, I'm sure that as the cladding bill progresses and discussions go beyond the cladding bill, that this matter would be brought up and discussed. But again, that's really important, I think, in terms of speaking to developers on that. Now, there are all still on going discussions around the SBA process, which we'll touch on next week, I'm sure, in more detail. But again, I think that that would be something that could be considered as we get more into the depths of what the developers are saying, for example, and how we can work with them collaboratively in that one. I think that that's a really important point, as we work in partnership with them in terms of that. Thanks for that. It's good to hear that it's being considered. I'm going to bring in Mark Griffin. Thanks, Givanna. Good morning, minister. Just when we're on the subject of maintenance, and particularly talk about the maintenance of existing flats, we've heard from witnesses that the current regime doesn't really work well with proactive maintenance in terms of preventing long-term issues. I'm just wondering if the Government has got any plans to review the legislation that governs on-going maintenance factoring of flassy developments at all? I think there's obviously the work around about the building maintenance group, and I know there were discussions. We've been, I think, Graham Simpson had discussed this through the cross-party group on housing as well, and raised this issue. I met him on that particular point. I think there's work still going on with the Scottish Law Commission on that at the moment, talking about building maintenance and how that fits in. We're kind of waiting for them to come back, which I understand is later in this year. I think that autumn time we've been given an update on that one. Again, it would be interesting to see what the Scottish Law Commission said, because we commissioned them on that piece of work to look at that specifically. But again, I'm happy to come back to committee on that point. I'd mentioned that I'd come back to the cross-party group on that point as well. I think there's a separate building maintenance group that's been looking at that within that. We're waiting to come here back from the Scottish Law Commission just on exactly what they thought on that, because it's a complex legeria, hence why we asked them for an update on that particular point. I'm happy to come back or write to the committee at that stage, Mr Graham. Look forward to seeing that update. Have there been any interim? Not yet, but I hope that we would get some kind of report, as I said, just post a recess, summer recess, but we're indicated autumn. Where that kind of sits, that could be between September and November. We were indicated that it was going to be autumn this year. Okay, thank you. Thanks, I'm going to bring in Sevan Callan. Thanks, convener, and good morning minister. There's undistandably a backlog in essential maintenance right across housing 10 years, so my question and two questions, I suppose, how can that actually be paid for and what role is it that you see for national and for local government in supporting that maintenance? I think in terms of local government. I mean, I've tried to get around as many local authorities as I possibly can. I think I've got about three to go and I've been around all of them. The issue that Kenny comes up first and foremost is one in terms of where do they prioritise because we've got discussions on going on about the retrofitting agenda, and obviously local authorities are prepared to deal with strategies. What happens, Kenny, beyond that, is the deliverability, which is due towards the end of this year. It's a green heat finance task force, which is looking at that broadly in terms of how that's financed. That's looking at local authorities in RSL, so how can these be funded? We're then talking about investment in new stock, so where does that kind of fit, and then the repairs come in in terms of that. There's always that element that local authorities should be engaging in if they're preparing their budgets. How does that kind of fit in there? I think that the local authorities are very different, but at the moment the retrofitting agenda and how they invest or invest in new stock is a discussion, and it would be different solutions for different local authorities. They'll, obviously, prioritise and what they need to prioritise in terms of that. I think that it's up to each local authority in terms of what they do around that point. I've had a 15-year experience in local authorities. I know that was a discussion that came up every year in terms of that. He would hope that, as a local authority, he would be looking to make sure that that's updated every year. Obviously, there was a backlog after Covid, which local authorities are starting to catch up on. Again, that's a decision for each local authority, so it's working with them in terms of we're talking about, generally, if it's damp and mould, for example, there is a role of the Scottish Housing Regulator. There's discussions with COSA, there's discussions, obviously, with Alachow as well in terms of that. I think that, again, depending on if it's local authorities, it's obviously working with them in terms of that. We've been working quite a wee bit, for example, with Alachow on that kind of point in terms of that, to make sure that they pick up. There's a broader issue as well of adaptations, for example, which, again, kind of fits into that broader agenda. Each local authority probably knows more than anybody else in terms of that, so it's working with local authorities individually and making sure that local teams are working with them on that as well. I think that it comes down to each local authority making their own decision on investment on green retrofitting, for example. I said on look with national government, it's working with them in terms of funding, it's working with them in terms of funding for adaptations, and again, working very closely with the regulator, Alachow, COSA, in terms of that, on what emerging themes come out of that. Can I just ask then, just for clarity, it sounds very much like you're talking about local authorities having quite a joined up approach here, as well as having support at a national level right across maintenance repairs, adaptations, retrofitting, et cetera. Is that something that you're saying then across local authorities? I'll be honest, it's mixed. I think that one of the key things in terms of that is, when you come down to local housing, because we can go through the haunted process, for example, and that's looking at the needs. When it comes to local housing strategies, for me it's really important around about how broad and how far reaching that is, because the local housing strategy isn't just around about the housing itself and where it delivers houses, it's around about adaptations, about repairs, it's around about, and it should include, in the Hannahf Connyscence as well, in my view, in terms of looking at the retrofitting agenda, where does that come from? We are also looking at, as I said, one of the key things that probably matters for me going through the last year is, when speaking to local authorities, there's always that. There's the need as well in terms of looking for housing for more elderly people. I remember meeting, I think, it was an organisation which was, it's like extra care housing, and it was figures that I think carried out by the ONS, which showed that in the UK there were around about 15 million bedrooms that were sitting in the spare, and now if you take Scotland, share a population, you're talking in between a million and a million and a half bedrooms that are sitting in the spare in Scotland at the moment, so it is an opportunity for elderly people who might be staying in a big house that can move in that now. I know that local authorities have had incentives before they've kind of got people moving, so that's a market as well. I think that it needs to be developed, so we've had discussions with care providers in terms of that, and we've got a round table coming in, for example, with Mary Todd and talking about how we can look at extra care housing and how housing comes at that, what's funding around that. Because again, you're talking in between a million and a million and a half approximate bedrooms in Scotland that are lying in the spare, so again, that you're talking about broader housing situation, but again, I think that's where the local housing strategy needs to come in and as be as broad in as far reaching as possible, so again, that's a level of discussion that you have with each local authority, and again, they're slightly different, because the situation in the Western Isles is different in Glasgow, for example, but I think that's where the local housing strategies really need to go in a little bit more depth in terms of looking at that, and again, this is where we can work with them and the discussions I have with them, but also local teams discussing the issues with them as well. Thank you very much. Thank you, convener, and good morning, minister. The committee has received concerns that the efforts to cut emissions from existing homes might lead to unintended issues like more mould and damp. What measures have the Scottish Government taken to prevent this? In terms of emissions, again, I think that if you look at the new build, obviously, there's new build standards that have obviously come in in terms of where we are with new houses going forward, and I think that that's an important step going forward. I think that that's really important, because we're now starting to see that, and again, discussions that I've had with developers, they welcome that. Now, obviously, we've got to make sure that that standard continues to evolve with different technologies coming forward, so I know that that's being looked at. In terms of coming back to work around about damp and mould, I think that it depends on where that kind sits. Is it local authorities? Does it sit with the private sector? Again, this is where the role of the Scottish Housing Regulatory Committee comes in. I know that they've written to the committee directly about some of the charters, the charters and the carers that are there. That's one of the key things that they're talking about in engagement in the sector, obviously, is developing an appropriate monitoring system. Again, I think that that's really important going forward to what impact it is having in terms of that. I think that that's one of the key things in terms of, again, it's depending on social, to talk to them about the social landlords, and again, I think that this is where the latter has a really important role to play in that. The regulator can think over views. I think that one of the key things, after Covid, there was a note put out on damp and mould for all social housing practitioners, and I think that that was in February last year, and that was housing associations for leading housing organisations that sent a wee bit note out on that. I think that coming back to the figures that we gave at the start, there's not been any increases, but we need to make sure that we're working on and about what we do going forward. A lot of that. You need some of the discussions around about, and I've read this before saying that it's about tenants behaviours. It's not around about tenants behaviours. I mean, obviously, there's an indicator. It's important that tenants look after their properties, but this is around about making sure that the properties properly look after them. I think that it comes back to the point that Stephanie Made was around about making sure that local authorities have effective schemes in place for that. The regulator does have the ability to go on and speak to local authorities and know that they've done that for Edinburgh, for example, about how they dealt with damp and mould. We work closely with the housing regulator that's discussed and I have with him. That is always raised in terms of that. Obviously, the complaints procedure can go through as well, but it's working very closely with the housing regulator, I think, is the important part. There is that report mechanism, if you like. As I said, the regulator did write to Edinburgh about how they dealt with housing. We have damp and mould in their properties. Again, it's working very closely with them, working with the legislature in terms of that. Again, it comes back to the conditions of the properties that they've looked after. That comes back, I think, to how they deal with that with the local housing strategies. What are they spending on in terms of that? I think that data is incredibly important as well. What is the actual level of damp and mould that each local authority can monitor and do the piece of work on? Again, when I meet with Edinburgh, we discuss damp and mould, for example, how they are dealing with that. It's broad, but it's very much that the regulator has a place to pay a latch or very keen to work with local authorities on that as well. It comes back to how local authorities look after their own stock. When it comes to private landlords, there have been discussions with the regulator and, again, with the Scottish Association of Landlords, given guidance on how they deal with damp and mould in their properties. I've just got another follow-up minister. The RIS reports a rise in hospitalisations due to damp and mould in Scottish homes. They emphasise that, currently insufficient and poorly understood guidance, what action has the Scottish Government taken to rectify a growing backlog of deferred maintenance and previously poor interventions that have at best covered up and at worse exacerbated rather than soft, damp and mould issues? Again, I think that it comes back to the previous part that I mentioned in the briefing that was sent out in terms of how we deal with that. Again, I think that it comes back to where the housing regulator plays its part. Now, after Covid, there was a real focus on that because there couldn't get an inspection of properties for obvious reasons during Covid. Again, that was picked up in terms of where that backlog kind of sits. I think that it comes back to working with the regulator and working with the elatrol, for example, in terms of that. Again, the individual local authorities said that the housing regulator has the power that it can write to Edinburgh and other local authorities as they have in the past to ask them what they are doing around that specific point of view. They will continue to work with the Scottish Association of Landlords, for example, and they are developing a more robust scheme of guidance in terms of looking at their tenants. Again, that is something that we have discussed with them in that particular regard. It is making sure that the guidance is out there, but it covers all tenures. It is not just social housing that is in terms of how we look at housing associations and how we look at working with private landlords, for example. The guidance is making sure that we have that data and that it is getting properly, as I said, in terms of the Scottish Association of Landlords, so that they are speaking to their members in that particular instance to make sure that they are following that. Minister, you are talking about the guidance, but I mentioned that the guidance is currently insufficient and that it is poorly understood. Where do you see what the work is for the Scottish Government to come in there? I think that, again, working with the housing organisations, I think that they touch on that. We mentioned about the work that the Scottish Association of Landlords are doing. Again, I will raise that issue. I am happy to take that offline with you in terms of that, in terms of the housing regulator and review that with them. The feedback that we got from the sector, the guidance, was sufficient in terms of that. I will be happy to take up that and come back to committee on that particular point. Pam, I want to come back on the question around the action to reduce emissions on existing homes, resulting in negative consequences. A situation that is occurring in my region is insulation schemes. UK-wide insulation schemes for internal insulation, where panels are being installed incorrectly and that is leading to damp and mould situations. What can you do? That is for private home owners. People living in those houses are not even rented accommodation. What can you do to support private owners, as well as the social rented sector, to understand how to install insulation in such a way that we are not leading to it? We are trying to tackle one issue, which is emissions, and then we are having those consequences that cause huge health issues. That is a really important point that I was up on in one constituency a couple of weeks ago. There is a project that is insulating a market that is called in. They are doing a piece of work in it. It is a village that might be in about 400 houses and there is a group being started up. In 30 weeks ago, they had an open day, so they had change works there. They had energy advice Scotland that was there. There must have been about 100,000 people that attended there. One of the key things that came up was around that particular point, was about advice. I think that the Scottish Government obviously funded those organisations partly or in terms of that. I think that it is really important that people get the right advice. There were examples of people who came there who had just spoken to other companies who did not meet the standards that were there. I think that there is a piece of work around communication, which I think is really important. That fits into the broader retrofit and agenda, because you are talking about either the fabric first approach and then we move on to how the house is heated, for example. I think that there is an element that is working closely with change works, with energy advice Scotland and about the work that needs to be done. When I was at that meeting a few weeks ago, there were technical questions being asked at that particular point that I did not fully understand, but this is obviously where the train professionals did come in there. It is making sure that, as that market continues to grow, that it is regulated properly. It is keeping an eye on that. How do we regulate it if we need to? It is making sure that there is sufficient advice that is out there. Even just at one event that I was at, you can see in people asking that. However, there were examples around about work being carried out that did meet standards and had to come back again. You had the experts, I said, from Energy Advice Scotland, from Change Workcent. That is not the way we would recommend that you can go on forward. Again, I think that that is a real role coming back to the retrofit and agenda. It is making sure that there is enough advice out there for people that they are getting the right advice. It is not companies coming in who have not got the proper training and are dealing with insulation projects that they do not actually have the knowledge for. It is a watch and brief on that one as that sector continues to grow. Thank you very much for that. In terms of that example, that was a community space that they got together and catalyzed that and pulled together Change Works and created that event. You can see very much that that needs to happen in order to collective action. I think that it was an example of if we can do it in a small village of four or five hundred houses, how do we then move towards it? How do you do that in an urban glass? How do you do that in the highlands where houses aren't doing it? There was another project, Carbon Neutral, that we have talked about, up in Nassie. Again, they had a conference a few months ago. The challenges were around about in an remote community. How do they look at that as well? Again, I think that there are projects out there that are working really well in terms of that, sharing the standards and so on. That was really encouraging, really great to see in terms of what they were doing there. There are examples, and I think that that will continue to grow. How does Government support that in terms of that? How do we support local communities? I think that is a really important part, because a solution in a rick would be different from what was in Nassie. It will be different as it is in urban glass or urban Edinburgh, for example. That is a piece of work that I think we will need to keep an eye on in terms of that, because people will see the opportunities around that. However, we need to make sure that we have the advice out there to make sure that that grows with the growing demand. Great, thanks very much. All communities all learn and get together. I am just going to bring in Stephanie Callahan with a brief supplementary. Thank you very much for allowing me back in, convener. Just a short question. You have mentioned the importance of data and your answer to Pam Gossel. I wonder if you can say just a little bit more on that, because we have a situation where local authorities often measure slightly different things or in slightly different ways. I wonder if you have got any reflections on current monitoring and if the data from across local authorities is actually directly comparable? On the data itself, I think that is a piece of work that we need to look at in a little bit more detail. I think that is right across the housing sector, and it does. Can you come back? Again, this is coming back to the work of the Scottish Housing Regulator in terms of what data they collect and how they use their influence. Across Scotland, it is something that we have discussed with Gossel in terms of housing 24-year group. I know that we can touch on that later on more broadly speaking about housing. It is talked about the use of data. There is a review group looking at the data, and I think that this is one of the issues that needs to be looked at as well. It is not, of course, there. If you are firm to purely housing, there is a piece of work that needs to be done in terms of how we look at that. That is a piece of work that I would be keen to see. It is mixed across different local authorities again. That is something that we need to develop a little bit further to understand that. It comes back to the dampen mould issue, for example. Again, this is where the Scottish Housing Regulator has the ability to write to Edinburgh and other local authorities and say, what is your data collection like, what are you doing on and about this? It is something that needs to be continued on an on-going basis all the time, but again, it is something that we need to progress with the housing 24-year group, with Gossel, with Eladro, for example. Thank you, minister. I would like to explore one or two issues around RAC. Your letter on 9 April was very helpful in the update that it gave on the continuing work with Aberdeen City Council. However, the Scottish Housing Regulator survey found that 13 social landlords, nine of whom are councils, have now identified the presence of RAC in some of the homes that it provides to tenants. RAC was brought in, if I recall correctly, back in the 40s originally. Equally, drawing on information that I have from other committees I sit on, it was never intended to last more than 30 years. Since the 1980s, there has been a stream of alerts from professionals drawing attention to the fact that RAC was coming to the end of its life. Of course, that predates this Parliament, so I am not clear what happened when that initial series of warnings, shall we call it, came forward. I do not know, I do not know what the Scottish Office at the time, I do not know how they dealt with that, but coming back to RAC in the councils, clearly it is quite serious, it is quite serious in my area, open valley north in Musselburgh. I would like to know what steps you are taking to support the councils that are affected by that, to remediate the risks that are arising from the historic use of those materials. We are talking going back decades here, so we do not really know how long or the scope of the problem with RAC, and it may take years to find that out. What support are you giving the councils? I will come back to that question, and I think that the first point to make is that we are working closely with the Scottish Housing Regulator on identifying properties that are affected by that, and that is through local authorities, but it is also through housing associations. We are still working with the regulator on that, and they are doing that engagement with the regulator on that, so that work continues. On the specific issues that are picked up, I think that when we take a look back, that was an incident that was taken back down south, then it obviously impacted and we started looking at it. There is a RAC oversight group that looks at other issues. I will come back to the housing point. I think that there is a number of local authorities that have been in touch, for example Clackmanager, who was identified as having a small number of properties. Aberdeen was in the same position in terms of that, slightly larger number of properties that are looking at that. I have met with Clackmanager and a number of issues that I have met with them on a number of occasions. I have also met with Aberdeen in terms of that. Both local authorities are going through an options appraisal at the moment, so I think that that is an important part. What do they do? They have looked at some of the houses that are impacted by RAC. Some may be repairable, some may not, so there is a broader overview that is going on at the moment. Clackmanager is doing that, Aberdeen is doing that. We continue to engage with them when they come back with their options appraisal. That is obviously something that will sit down with them when they discuss in more detail when they have that particular point. Again, there have been discussions on that. I am happy to pick up on the issue that you mentioned about middle and local authorities. Aberdeen and Clackmanager have been the ones that have been impacted mostly with that, so we have had a number of meetings and continue to work with them. The options appraisal part is a really important part in terms of what they do going forward. There is obviously more detailed work going on in both Clackmanager and Aberdeen and about what they need to do to move that forward. Obviously, the complexity around the banat is somewhere privately owned and somewhere obviously owned by the local authority. We continue to engage with Aberdeen, Clackmanager and other local authorities, and there is a broader overview group on RAC as well as looking at that. It is very much an on-going discussion. There has not been any actual requirements for funding, for example around the banat. In terms of some of the asks, we have obviously worked very closely with them in terms of some of the work that they need to do, in terms of the more detailed work around what the properties can engage with. It is an on-going situation with them, particularly about Aberdeen and Clackmanager. That work, for example, I think, indicates that it will be six months probably from around the end of March or April, so they are talking about late summer. We continue to engage with them on a regular basis and see what their actual specific demands will come out of that overall work that they are doing in terms of that just now. Certainly, as far as it is slowly and council is concerned, I would appreciate the opportunity to develop that with you. However, coming back to the costs of that, it is not going to be insignificant. Private residents are obviously going to be faced with massive costs, which they are probably unlikely to get. Tremendous support from government or from local authorities. I guess we are looking at housing authorities and council houses mainly. Going back to the late 40s, how do we identify them? How do we ensure that they have been identified and that they are safe for the tenants that are in there? Coming back to what I said originally about the original plan that the RAC would only have a 30-year lifespan, how valid is that? You mentioned, obviously, before I end about going back to the 1970s, for example, I cannot comment on what went on in the 1970s and what programmes were set in place in there. The convener mentioned that it started looking at building MOT as an important part of that. Once we continue to evolve through the discussions with RAC and through cladding, that is something that needs a broader overview with and a broader consultation on. In terms of looking at what RAC mentioned about the work that the Scottish Housing Regulator is doing at the moment, that will identify areas about where RAC has been identified. If it is a number of houses that I mentioned before in Aberdeen, for example, there needs to be a more detailed piece of work in terms of what it actually looks like. At the moment, Aberdeen is going through that with all the residents. There are one-to-one discussions about what is the options for them, what is their own situation, what condition surveys have been carried out on the property. That continues to evolve, and that is working with the Scottish Housing Regulator at the moment that we are discussing that regularly. It then comes back to what Kenny comes out of the more detailed pieces of work, for example, with Aberdeen and Collax. What does that look like going forward? I think that one of the key things at the time when the chancellor indicated in exact words to spend what is necessary to deal with the issue of RAC is that there is no funding so far that it has been identified, including in the recent budget. Again, we need to see what Kenny comes out of the requirements that Aberdeen and, for example, in Collax that are not at that place yet. Those will be things that will be raised with the chancellor, and they will talk about it. I never really said that they would do that with us in terms of where they will get to the options appraisals and what that actually looks like. In addition to that, there are a number of key things. One is about the insurance. When Aberdeen and Collax came up, we had a discussion with the Association of Rich Insurance, talking about what that looks like. That will not cover RAC, but what it means is that properties will still continue to be insured. The other key thing was talking to UK Finance in terms of how they deal with the situation around private owners and what the situation is in terms of that going forward. UK Finance is again involved in discussions with itself and with the local authorities in terms of advising residents in terms of what they need to do at this particular stage. Discussing with Aberdeen in terms of what their longer-term options appraisal will include private residents and social tenants. What does that look like? That piece of work is still on going with Aberdeen. We get a weekly update from Aberdeen in terms of the number of discussions that they have had and what they tend to do. We will obviously have more detailed discussions with them when they get to the situation around the options appraisal and what that looks like and any specific help that would be highlighted at that particular time. We are not at that position as it has of yet, but I am happy to come back to committee when that comes forward. We are working closer with the regulator in terms of that. As you can understand, it is a big piece of work right across Scotland in terms of identifying that. In fact, insurance was the next thing that I was going to come to because it is quite a serious situation. I understand that insurance has in fact been kept in place for all these properties. However, it still is a big question mark because insurance is not intended to cover rack, so the replacement of that is going to be probably for the owners to be able to fund in some way. I cannot imagine that rack is mainly cladding in terms of blocks of flats and so on, as opposed to individual houses. Would that be correct? I think that in terms of Aberdeen that it is more than individual houses, for example. Now, again, because rack has been identified, it does not mean that it cannot be remediated. The condition surveys that are carried out in the properties will obviously identify that. That is part of the options appraisal. What does that look like? Can these properties be remediated? Or are there other options available? That is the piece of work that Aberdeen is doing at the moment. Obviously, it is lasing with Scottish Government colleagues in terms of building control, for example. However, that is a piece of work that they have undertaken at the moment. The options appraisal, when it comes forward, will identify what it needs to do to take that forward. Again, because rack has been identified, it does not mean that it cannot be repaired, but the key element is what is cost of that and what is that going to do that for both local authority and private residents? As far as private residents are concerned, is there likely to be any sort of funding available for them? The assumption is no. A lot of these properties are ex-council uses. For example, they have been purchased and they were built by the council originally. A lot of owners, I know, are saying that we bought that in good faith and, in fact, it was a substandard build, for example. Is there likely to be any funding at all in those circumstances? I will probably come back to the point about what the chancellor had said, and what is necessary. There has not been anything set aside, nor was it set aside in the budget. It is hypothetical at this point because we do not know what the options appraisals are going to say and what it is looking at. Again, I am happy to come back to the committee in terms of when we have more detail, for example, from other local authorities. It is hypothetical at this moment not knowing what any particular ask would be whether there is any funding that comes forward from the UK Government on that particular map, because obviously the issue is continuing to evolve in the rest of the UK as well. If there was additional funding from the UK Government and there were consequentials, then that would obviously change the situation. However, it is hard at this moment to try and indicate that when we do not know and we have not had any specific asks around about funding. I wanted to ask a couple of questions, firstly with regards to post implementation analysis, which the Government has undertaken around some of their policies, and specifically with regard to integrated fire alarms. It is two years now since around about half a million properties in Scotland were identified as not implementing that policy. So I just wondered what analysis has taken place and whether or not the minister is aware that all local authority and housing associations now comply with that policy. The number of things, I think, is the Scottish Housing Condition Survey. I am confident that it has showed that 1.9 million homes in Scotland, that is 75 per cent, are fully compliant and the electrify alarms were around about 25 per cent against about 638,000, where the court is not having satisfactory equipment for detecting. In the social rented sector it was around about 6 per cent, 38,000 where the court is not having satisfactory equipment for detecting in terms of that. Again, that was in 2022, I think, and that was carried out. There was physical surveys carried out between April 22 and March 2023. I think that you have probably seen more progress since then, but the latest House Condition Survey showed the figures that I have mentioned in terms of that. Again, there is discussions on going with local authorities in terms of what they need to do to move that forward and more broadly. I think that the figures that I have given have probably increased since then. The next House Condition Survey, obviously, I would be hopeful, would show an increase on that. I know that, in terms of private-owned homes, there is anecdotal evidence that this is only taking place when a sale is being implemented, not before. Is there any data on that? The Government had allocated £0.5 million two years ago for vulnerable and disabled individuals to access support for this. Has that all been allocated, or was that money not then spent? I can come back to that particular point in terms of that indication. I am not aware of the full figures on that, but I can write to the committee on that particular point. Obviously, the condition survey carries out in the buildings right across, and I think that there has been an increase. On that particular point that I mentioned, I can come back to the committee unless I don't know if any of my colleagues can bring that data, but I can come back to and write to the committee on that particular point. That would be helpful. Empty homes is also something that we have discussed at length. With regard to maintenance, I know a number of councils that will not have the resources to really invest in building maintenance, so bringing forward those empty properties. A lot of councils are employing housing officers specifically to look at this, and I think that that is welcome. However, we do not seem to be in a space where we are really pushing down on the number of empty homes. We have already heard this morning all the problems with regards to cladding and rack and what is creating even more housing need. I just wondered what the Government's plan is with regard to empty homes and whether or not the Government has considered establishing, for example, a national empty homes fund that councils could bid into. Here in Edinburgh, there are over 3,000 sitting empty council-owned properties to look at getting those back into use. I will come back to a couple of points. One is the element of empty homes. The Scottish Government has spent £3.2 million. Approximately, we announced another £423,000 to work with the empty homes partnership. That has delivered over 9,000 homes. Can you come back? The issue of empty homes is slightly different from Voids. I will come back to the Voids on that. I think that the work on the empty homes continues to develop. It has been encouraged. Again, I think that this comes back to the point that Stephanie Callaghan mentioned. If we were looking at local housing strategies, that has to take in Voids and empty homes as well. It has been encouraging to see some local authorities with some of the funding that is coming through taking on more empty homes officers, because I think that is really important. There is a real focus on that. The empty homes issue itself can be complicated. It can be properties that have maybe been left in probate. It can be properties that are in terms of complicated ownership when people live overseas. Sometimes it is not as simple as that. I think that the empty homes partnership has worked really well in delivering the number of houses. That is why we are funding, again, by another £400,000. The Voids issue is a really important issue. You mentioned that in terms of Edinburgh. There is a real focus, and we spoke to Edinburgh probably a bit a month ago. That comes up on a regular basis. Again, they are talking about how they look at Voids. We are in discussions at the moment with Coslawn Alach or in the focus on Voids. There needs to be more work done collectively with local authorities in terms of what we need to do if we are talking about, for example, the number of temporary accommodation units. If you have properties that are not sitting available because of the Voids issue, that is really important. In terms of empty homes, that could be more complex, but you cannot separate the two. It is in terms of allocation policies as well, which I think is really important. Again, discussions are on going on about allocation policies. I think that that is a really important part of that. Again, it is different in different parts of Scotland where the Voids issue sits. You mentioned about the number, for example, at Edinburgh. We have been at various round tables where that has been discussed and the Voids issue has come up. Edinburgh is making progress. It needs to make progress more quicker in terms of that. It acknowledges that, and there is more of a focus on that. However, that focus needs to be right across Scotland. Again, that comes back to having broader discussions about what is the focus on Voids, what is the focus on allocations and what is the focus on empty homes. I think that that is an important part in terms of that. Again, when I have discussions with local authorities, we go into detail talking about that. Again, it is complex. The empty homes issue can be more complex, but it is certainly work that continues to get invested in. As I said, I think that there has been a level of success in terms of that. I was just up in Orkney about a month, six weeks ago, and they talked about the number of properties in there. I think that it was in about 700 empty homes, for example, in Orkney. That, again, is more complex. How do we work and how does I empty homes partnership for work, for example, in Orkney in trying to bring these houses forward? Some of those were in some islands that were less populated. Again, there are more local authorities taking on the empty homes officers, which I think is really encouraging. At times, we all acknowledge that funding is particularly difficult, but they see the benefit of empty homes officers taking that piece of work on. I hope that that will continue. It is heartening to hear that more local authorities are taking on empty homes officers. That is very interesting. Just before we conclude this part of our time this morning, I just wanted to come back to the Scottish Housing Condition Survey. In preparation for this and in our papers, we have information that Elacio is concerned about the housing condition survey data not being of sufficient quality to provide a true picture of the quality of Scotland's houses. I question it because of my experience in the region around damp and mould and the seemingly low numbers that we are getting. If we do not really get a strong picture of the quality of Scotland's houses, we are going to face issues down the line that are worse to deal with, including health issues. What do you think about Elacio's view on that and what do you think that the Scottish Government could be doing to make that Scottish Housing Condition Survey more robust and give us that true picture, so that we are serving people in Scotland and making sure that their homes are fit to live in? One is obviously the data. That was incredibly important. We talked previously about the issues from Covid. That was something that local authorities are planning to catch up on, and we will continue to do that. Social landlords, for example, are required by law to meet the housing standard. There is the repair and standard of statutory guidance that sets out what private landlords need to do. Of course, if they are not meeting that, they can go to tribunal for determination. We talked to them about what the Scottish Housing Regulator is doing with local authorities. If they do not think that they are doing enough on dampened mould, they can write to them on an action plan. Again, that is something that we discussed with the regulator on an on-going basis. Discussions with Elacio and Coslow are feeding them into that particular point. It is not being specifically mentioned by Elacio to myself, but I am happy to pick that up with Elacio in that particular point and come back to committee. I think that there are guidelines that are in place. There are actions that can be taken that are in place. I think that the data in Kennedy's collection is obvious that there is an element to catch up from Coslow. Figures that we referenced are generally standing still. They are not moving, but I think that there is that element in working with Elacio and Coslow and the regulator on how we take that particular issue forward. I am happy to come back to the point that you mentioned about Elacio. I can contact him on that specific point if there are any specific concerns. It is not something that I have been made aware of. It may be something that colleagues have not been made aware of, but I will speak to officials on that particular point and come back. I certainly appreciate that. I am just recalling that you and I attended the online event about healthy homes in the Lochaber, Skye and Lochalsh area. They did their own survey, and they got results that were quite different, so it is that piece again about how do we get to the local more nuanced, deeper understanding of what is really going on. I really appreciate you looking into that further. I am now going to briefly come to the end of our part around the building safety and maintenance, and I am going to briefly suspend the meeting to allow for a short comfort break before we return to our questions on housing to 2040. I welcome our witnesses back to the meeting. We are now going to turn to questions on housing to 2040. I would like to begin by asking a broad question around the vision. We heard from our round table that broadly people really appreciate the vision, but I would be interested to hear from you what you think needs to be put in place to deliver it. Concerns were raised about the lack of delivery plan, our lack of indicators to measure the success of the strategy and also what do you think the role is for the national performance framework in ensuring that we deliver on the strategy. I know at the moment that housing is not even mentioned in that framework. That probably comes back in terms of the opening statement that I made. Obviously, the strategy came out in 2021. At that particular point, there is no disagreement in terms of that. Since I was made a minister, I think that the board has met two or three occasions and has obviously met board members on a regular basis to discuss their own specific issues and the more broader issues. In terms of where we have had since 2021, we have talked about the pandemic itself. We have talked about the cost crisis and the cost of living crisis. There has been an impact and we can see quite how that impacts on Scotland. I think that the ONS, for example, had mentioned the loss of workers in the UK in about 1.5 million people. Obviously, the construction sector would have been part of that. If you are talking about Scotland, you are talking about 150,000-ish. Again, that is just an estimate. If you are talking about the shared population, that has had an impact on that. There has been an impact on that. The cost of construction inflation has made a real impact on that. For example, last summer when I was at visiting, I was told that there were more contracts that were literally getting changed. They were there for a day or two and then the price had to change within that. I think that that is anecdotally speaking to developers. That slowed down a little bit, but it is still at a high level. Obviously, we have had the capital budget cut in terms of that as well. I think that the key thing is that situation has changed when that was first and set. I think that the objectives are still there. We have obviously set the 110,000 target. There was a review that was planned for 26-27, which has been brought forward to now. There is work on going on about that. The logistics of that are being worked at the moment. We will be, and I have said this publicly, and I will again continue to say that. There is a review going on about the deliverability of that. That will include stakeholders that are involved in the housing 2040 strategy that we have said to them. The review is carried out not just by Government but by stakeholders themselves. That is an incredibly important part. I will bring Joe in a little second to talk about how that is going to work in terms of that, but that is really important in terms of the delivery review. Things have changed, they have significantly changed. I do not think that anybody can say that they have not. I will bring Joe in at this particular point. There are a couple of other things that I want to come back to in terms of what to do more broadly going forward. I will bring Joe in just in terms of the delivery review of how that is going to be working and how that is going to report back, just to give a little bit more detail in terms of how that is going to be worked on operationally, if that is okay? I think that the key point that I would make is just to endorse what the minister has said. The phase that we are currently in with the review has been internal, engaging with a range of Scottish Government colleagues with a diverse interest in housing and the delivery of it and the impact that that has across Government on our social and economic policies. We are about to begin an external phase of that review where we will be engaging directly with a range, a full range of stakeholders gathering their views, offering them an opportunity not just to meet with us and talk to us, but to provide written material that we could then take into account in collating the report and preparing advice for ministers. Again, I am happy to come back and to discuss that when that report comes out, but it is very much an inclusive approach. That is an important part. It is not just Scottish Government looking at that. It is the stakeholders as well, which I think is incredibly important. Again, I am happy to come back to the committee at any point and discuss that. Just on the national performance framework, do you have— My apologies. I think that that is something that we are continuing to have discussions that are in about at the moment, what the indicators should be in terms of that. Again, I am happy to come back. There are on-going discussions on that particular point at the moment. Okay. On a timescale? Autumn. No, no. I think that that would probably be before then. I do not want to commit. I know that there are on-going discussions, but I think that it would be before then, to be honest. Okay, great. Thanks for that. I just want to go into a little bit of details. We have key measures that the housing 2040 strategy is intending to cover decarbonising heat in homes, which we touched on in the previous session this morning, to some degree, tackling high rents in the private sector, which your colleague, Patrick Harvie, is working on. Another one of the strategy key measures is setting a single set of standards for housing quality and accessibility. I just wondered where that work is at this time. That has continued to be developed at the moment. I think that there will be a consultation on that coming out relatively shortly. Again, I am happy. We will obviously ride to committee on that particular point. One of the things that has been raised through the housing 2040 group itself was around about the legislation that has come forward and at what pace and at what time. That is the feedback that we continue to take on on that particular point. So there will be consultations coming out on the standards in terms of that as well, but we will be riding to committee on that particular process and what that looks like. But there is on-going work around about a consultation on that matter. Okay, that is good to hear. There is going to be a consultation. I think that one of the things that I would like to highlight is to make sure that it is rural. Whatever standards we end up with, we need to make sure that rural and island housing is proofed. We heard last week that we have been across the issue around wood stoves with recent regulation that came in. We absolutely need to take some action on that. However, if we are going to bring in a single set of standards for housing, such as quality and accessibility, we have already talked this morning about the nuanced approach that we need to take across Scotland because the issues are different for island communities and even mainland communities and central belt and so on and so forth. It would be good to see that whatever the consultation is, it supports all voices being heard through that. I think that you are right that you and I were at the rural housing conference a couple of months ago now, but I don't remember when it was. Again, that issue was raised and I think that that is incredibly important. I think that you mentioned that conference itself that I was keen to get out and I had done this last summer to get out and visit as many communities as possible. I wanted to talk around about how they build more housing, and the points that you raised there. We talked about carbon neutral rase, for example, and about what that looks like. It is trying to encourage local authorities, but it is trying to encourage local communities to take on that as well. It is encouraging that we talked about insulation, and we have talked about carbon neutral rase and other groups that can go on and end up picking up that. How do we support local authorities? It is incredibly important to have that rural aspect of your look. I have already had a number of invites to come out during the summer and visit as many local and island communities. We will pick up that and speak to them about their own particular issues. You are right that it needs to be more nuanced and have that rural approach as well. I am glad to hear that you are aware of that. I want to move on to placemaking. Another key strand in the 2020-40s is about placemaking. We have been again flagged up to us through our roundtables, concerns around the ambition of placemaking and that it will not be achieved, partly because of the failure of the planning framework to take into account the concerns and needs of local residents and the focus on developing unaffordable private rented housing. You will be aware of that. The challenges around local authorities are not really having the resources and the skills to deliver on it. To what extent do you think the ambition is being realised and can be realised given those circumstances? I think that there are a number of things. One, there is a resource, a review going on about the planning at the moment. RTPI, for example, has been involved in that. Craig McLaren is doing more work. Craig has been at the committee before we are in and about that. Joe Fitzpatrick has now had a roundtable with a number of developers from Scotland and other groups probably in about three or four months ago. We have another roundtable plan and one of the key issues is how to develop the placemaking element. That is incredibly important in how we deliver communities, not just in housing but in how we deliver communities. That is key in how we look at that. The resource review is picking up on that issue. We will remember the discussions that we had here with MPF4 over a number of months and years at that particular time. How do we get MPF4 and what is the transition from MPF3 to MPF4, particularly in the local development plans? Again, when you are talking about the resource review, that is important. When we had the roundtable with the head of planning, it was talking about how to make sure that the transition between MPF4 to local development plans are all at different times as we know local development plans. How does that kind of work? There is another roundtable plan on that particular point, but placemaking is essential. It is incredibly important in terms of that. The resource element is really part of that. There are ongoing discussions that have been said about MPF4 and how that fits into planning in local development plans. We discussed that at the committee, but that was always going to be the challenge on how to move from MPF4 into local development plans in that tradition, when they are all at a slightly different period at any time. However, the resource review, as I said, is an incredibly important part of looking at that. Of course, not just the local development plans, but also making sure that the local place plans that communities are busy developing now are not quite alive to it yet. We will come on board doing that to make sure that those usually very rich evidence-based, based on experience ideas that they come for, are honoured and that communities start to see those things around them. I think that that is really important. The local place plan needs to fit into the local development plan. It comes back to the local development plan. We are not just talking about housing. We are talking about green space. We are talking about business, how do we make the growth of business. For example, one of the key things—a lot of work that we are doing at the moment—is working with SSAN and local authorities in terms of some of their renewable hubs in Scotland. What does that need in terms of accommodation? What does that need in terms of opportunities for legacy housing? What does that mean in terms of how do we support business in terms of that as well? There is a lot of work going on with SSAN, which I will touch on later on. What does that look like? There is an influence on how do we support business development in terms of that as well. It is business, it is place making, it is business, it is green space. It is also looking at the viability in a new knife. It is about the viability of high streets, for example. That is a challenge in about 10 centres. That has to be an element in that as well. Place making is not just about new housing. How does all that fit in? That is an important part. I think that the local place plans are an exciting part of what the Government is trying to do and what everybody supports. It can be complex, but it needs to make sure that it is community-based. It is not just developed, for example, by local authorities. It needs to make sure that it has that element of support for local communities. If it likes to develop that, that is really important. However, we need to make sure that that is resourced within local authorities. That is where the resource review is really important in terms of what that looks like. I think that that would certainly be appreciated. I have conversations with people who talk about the idea that communities need to be leading because they live in the place and that local authorities facilitate that and support it. Developers come in and deliver on the community's vision. We have it going the other way around at the moment and you end up with sprawl on the edge of towns with lack of transport networks going in the opposite direction of what we really need to be doing. Lack of place, yes, you may have a shop in there, but where are the places for people to come together, for communities to happen? Obviously, another aspect of placemaking is the active travel networks that we are keen to see delivered through the national planning framework. It is good to hear that you are aware of those things and are keen to support that placemaking. Miles Briggs has a number of questions. Many housing developers, especially housing associations, have highlighted the current challenges in delivering affordable housing, particularly in the context of the recent budget and cuts to affordable housing supplies. Looking at where we have been progressing in Scotland, we have seen a 5 per cent decrease in the number of affordable housing approvals since 2022 and a 20 per cent decrease in the number of affordable housing starts in that period. I wanted to ask what the Scottish Government is doing with its partners to look at the decline, and the projected numbers clearly are not going to meet the housing to 2040 target, if that is what we are going to see. Where is the Government responding to that? I will come in with some separate questions beyond that. I think that it is important to set a context. In the house builders, in terms of the macroeconomic situation of our interest rates have been, it has not helped the market, it has not helped the market in Scotland, in Wales or England, for example. There is probably a more positive look in terms of that, and again, in speaking to developers, the words that I have heard are green shoots, so there is that recovery. The next interest rate decision will be interesting to see where that kind of goes, because I think that we will start to see the market picking up, so hopefully the macroeconomic situation will make a difference. That does not just impact people's general impact on the cost of borrowing, so when you are speaking to SFHA, for example, or individual housing developers, that has been an element, because they can be budgeted in terms of interest rates at 2 per cent or 3 per cent, and they are paying 5 per cent plus in terms of that, the covenants, and I will touch on the bank inside these things, are particularly tight around borrowing as well. In terms of the house building and the completions, last year we were at high straight for around 20 years, so I think that that is the context going forward. I appreciate the challenges that we have seen in the drop that are coming forward in terms of that. I think that there are a number of things in terms of what is really important. One is that, coming back to the house in 2040 strategy group, we talked about the longer-term objectives, but the last group that we talked on about what are the most important priorities at the moment. One was supply, and I will touch on jor or lorry, if they want to see something on that particular point. There is a group talking about the short-term supply, and they are talking about the number of voids emptying. That is not on the house building itself, but they are talking about the short-term supply. The other particular point that they mentioned was about innovative finance. There have been a number of discussions that we have had in the last number of months in terms of that. It was one of the key priorities. I have said this before when I came into post that it was about flexing up finance and about the sector. A number of months ago, we had a round table with housing associations. Again, we were talking about SFT, SNP and Hubco, for example. We were talking about other different models that we could look at. That work continues, so I had the same one with registered social landlords and housing associations in terms of that. Is there more work that we can do on that particular point? Again, that has been mentioned just two weeks ago. I was doing London, we set up and had the first meeting of the house investment task force, which included institutional investors, banks and members of home homes for Scotland. For example, we were down there at Alachow and local authorities. We were trying to look at how we could look at various models of finance. That will be an last joke to come back on that particular point. In terms of what does that group look like, there will be minutes published to this group. It will come forward with recommendations. Again, that is coming back to the whole collaborative approach in terms of working with the sector, on how we are going to look at that. Ken Gibb was also down there and talked to him about opportunities. I do not know if you have seen him. There was an article in The Herald where he talked to him about the UK and Scottish Governments working together, for example, about guarantees, additional borrowing powers and local housing allowance. In his exact words, there is housing that is not wholly devolved, and it is not. There will be some ask, and I think that it is important for whatever the new Government, whoever it is, in October-November. There have been a number of discussions that we will need to have around that. How can they give us that ability to be more flexible in terms of finance? That is really important. I think that that is a broad view. There are a couple of other points that I want to mention. I do not know if Laura wants to come in about short-term supply, or if she wants to come in about that, particularly in the housing investment task force, and how that will continue to develop. There will be separate groups that will take that forward now. It meets quarterly basis, so I will come back. I do not know if Laura Jo would want to kick off on that particular group. Again, the logistics are in the bit of what that looks like. Before I come to the task force, I would confirm the minister's point about the statistics, giving a range of different signals about the complexity of how the market is operating in Scotland. For example, there are affordable homes, completions in 2022-23 increased by 7 per cent over the previous years, and that was the highest annual completion figure in any financial years since the start of the statistics series in 2000. That statistics sits in contrast with the range of others, which I think illustrates the range of challenges that the minister has already alluded to. In terms of the housing investment task force, we have had a first meeting of that group. We will shortly be publishing on the Scottish Government website the remit of that group having had a discussion with the group to get that confirmed and agreed. The membership of the group will also be published and I will make sure that the clerk gets that material separately from this conversation. The main focus of that meeting was to establish the main barriers to investment across all tenures and to agree a way forward in terms of which of those would be prioritised and how we would operate using the knowledge and experience of the members of the group. We were proposed and it was agreed that we would operate through subgroups, which will focus on specific priorities, projects and drill into those and come back to subsequent meetings of the group to check in and have substantive discussions in Plenary. The next meeting of the group will be in June and, as the minister has mentioned, we will be with the group's agreement publishing notes of those meetings and work to do that in hand. Thank you for that and it will be useful to keep committee updated on some of that. You talked about barriers, because one of the things looking back at the Government's rank control policy, it was quite clear from housing associations and they warned us, I think, that the minister, in fact, was asking a number of questions on this when he was a committee member as well, that mid-market rent development would dry up and we have seen that for housing associations. Is there a specific commitment then to look again at that for housing associations, to try to get that mid-market rent development potential going again and these discussions of ministers outlined? Is that central to that as well? I think, obviously, that we were down there. Because part of the discussions that we have had is with the investment sector itself, housing associations have mentioned that particular point, so that those will be things that will be discussed and how we look at that in terms of going forward. I think that very quickly, after the housing bill, it was published, it had a meeting with itself, obviously, from obviously the spokesman and Mr Griffin in terms of that, and we will continue to be open about that. I'd said that it was a very open and transparent process that I wanted to do with itself in terms of that. I think that those are certainly things that have been identified. Those are things that we'll be looking at in terms of that and broader investment opportunities as well. I think that Kenny is looking at that as well. Again, one of the key things, I think, for me is coming back to the housing investment task force that was worked together in terms of trying to get the views from other stakeholders. We talked about the housing delivery and delivery of review and, again, the input of the stakeholders. I think that I mentioned in an opening speech, that I can't deliver this on my own. We need support and we need influence and we need, obviously, thoughts and ideas coming from the sector. It's very much trying to look at that broader approach in terms of the other thing that's really important as well. I know, for Scotland to talk to the witnesses, how do we develop the SME market in Scotland to make sure that they play an important part as well? It's not just the big housing developers, how do we play that part as well? Other discussions on how we support SMEs, so there were homes for Scotland members that were there that feed into the process as well. Again, it comes back to poor housing associations. The group will be looking into these in a lot more detail and coming forward with recommendations to the Government on that. I think that this is an incredibly important part that we need to look at in terms of how we flex up the finance within the housing sector, not just in Scotland. I think that that needs to happen right across the UK. There are guarantees, for example, that the UK Government has that we don't have that would make a massive difference in terms of that. Again, it's looking at barriers and opportunities around what can be looked upon and where does other things work in terms of that. Again, that's part of the broader work that Kenny goes on. It feeds into the housing to the 2032 target around the deliverability, so those pieces of work are going on together in terms of that. There are a few other things that I want to touch on in terms of how to be looking at supply, how to be looking at demand, and how to be able to get demand and look at the opportunities around that. For example, there are in about six centres in terms of that as well, but I can touch on that as probably developed. I don't know if Laurie went to say anything at all about it. I think that most important things are getting to outcomes, not these discussions, but what will actually make a difference. Here in Edinburgh, the loss of that mid-market rent has been catastrophic really for our housing market, and getting that back is really important. I wanted to move on to homelessness because the Scottish Housing Regulator has reported systemic failures in the delivery of homelessness services in some councils with other councils at risk of failure. I wanted to specifically ask what the Scottish Government's response has been. With councils across Scotland declaring housing emergencies, what has been that response? We haven't seen the Scottish Government declare a housing emergency, but we're seeing councils doing that, my own here in Edinburgh being one of them. I think that there are a number of things that I touched on. First of all, there is money set aside obviously this year, and I think that there is a set of £5 million that has been set this year. In terms of the housing emergencies that have been declared, I was up in Argyll and Butte just last week before that, talking to the housing associations in terms of where they were, the local authority itself, the restocked transfer authority, and some of the island committee. They were talking about their development and housing emergency action plan, and we've agreed to work very closely with them. It's the same discussions that we've had with Edinburgh, for example. They have their housing emergency action plan, and I've actually got to meet them with Edinburgh tomorrow or Thursday, so we'll be going into more detail about that specific point. Glasgow is developing theirs, and again we've agreed to work with them on developing that as well, because again it's very much. In Fife, again similar discussion, they're developing our housing emergency action plan, which will come forward I think in June they're indicating. So again, we're working very closely with them in terms of how we develop that and how we're working specifically with them. It comes back to the point that I think I've mentioned in the working chamber, and their response is different in each particular part, so I think it's important that we work specifically with each local authority in terms of that. So I mentioned that they're in the funding that's been set aside already in this year, and we're working in terms of that with them. I think it then comes back to specific points around the issue particularly about void, empty homes, and again coming back to allocations. Now there are some figures that we've had that we're clarifying at this moment, which indicates there's a lot of work to be done on in terms of voids, empty homes, and allocations that would make a real difference. So again, these are the discussions that we've had, and so we've been discussing that with Elaccio, we've been discussing that with COSLA. For example, on these discussions, can you go on going? I'm confident to be something to come out of that very shortly in terms of that, and obviously we'll come back to committee on that particular point. It comes back, and again, there's a couple of other important factors that we talked about this. I think the report from the homelessness monitor, and obviously it was at crisis, talked about another couple of issues, and this is where we're talking about working in collaboration with the UK Government. One was, you know, the two biggest issues that they mentioned, one was around about local housing allowance, and again, for me, will be a key ask for whatever government comes in on October November time, in terms of that, we need to be increasing local housing allowance. There is no doubt about it, and that's not my words, this is the words, this is a homelessness monitor. Herriot One University carried that work out. The second biggest part that they mentioned was the level of universal credit, so again, that's something that needs to be taken in terms of that. Of course we need to increase supply, and we need to be building more homes. I talked about what we're talking about in the housing investment task force and what we can do around that, and talking about the supply side, but we do need support from the UK Government in terms of local housing allowance and on universal credits, because as I said, this is not my piece of work, this is what crisis, and homelessness monitor continued to say on an on-going basis. That comes back to the ask, so the UK Government comes in, but of course we need to be building more homes, so I'm not going to say that. You mentioned the figures themselves, so how can we increase the finance that's available to build more homes? For example, there's a lot of housing investment task force and other pieces of work are going on around that, and I suppose the other key thing, Kenny, came back to the point about that, and I think there's opportunities. I talked about the work of SSAN in terms of the seven noble hubs in Scotland that are being built, seven or eight are being built, so SSAN have disimplied somebody to go through that, so we're talking about what's the reference to homelessness is. If we're looking for accommodation workers in these areas, if we don't have enough housing, whether it's temporary accommodation or whatever, then all that's going to do is increase homelessness in these particular areas, so there's a detailed piece of work going on with SSAN in terms of how do we house temporary accommodation workers over probably over a period of two or three years, but what are the legacy opportunities in terms of that? For example, there was a meeting at the Green Freeport we had in November, where we had five developers that were up there, the big five companies that involved them there. We had, I think, around about a dozen housing developers around the way in which 10 hadn't built in that area at all, and we also had economic development opportunities to see, so that's been replicated across Scotland, so how can we make sure that that doesn't impact on different parts of Scotland? There's that piece of work going on, but it also leaves an opportunity to build more houses in terms of that as well, so that's the kind of pieces of work that can go on. In terms of that, the homelessness obviously avoids the empty homes, the allocations is something that we can work on, but we need to be building more homes in terms of that. Can he touch on what that would look like? I'm just asking to get back to homelessness services specifically. We're seeing record numbers of rough sleeping again being recorded. The Scottish housing regulator has been clear in terms of systemic failures, so for those councils, and I'm talking about my own again here in Edinburgh, what work is the Government doing with them? The preventative work in the housing bill we all accept, we all want to see, but that's a piece of legislation in the future. Here and now we are seeing those problems, and we don't seem to be seeing that emergency response to say to councils what's happening. We're seeing record number of people living in temporary accommodation in children, and it doesn't feel like Government and council are necessarily then connected in an emergency response to that at this current time. There's not even the recording of data in terms of people sleeping in their cars, for example, and not then declaring themselves homeless. I just wondered where Government was in that, because I think that the next set of statistics will be worse. Where are we as a country in trying to work with councils that have the biggest pressures, my own, in Edinburgh being at the top of that list? A couple of things. I want to mention a bit of the funding. It was this year, and that's part of the £100 million in homelessness together funding as well. There was £2 million set aside, which we negotiated and discussed with COSLA in terms of the authorities that needed that most in place. That's not my place to say to local authorities in terms of that. Now, Edinburgh, for example, received part of that funding. I talked about it just previously in terms of working with Edinburgh and how they are developing a housing emergency action plan, so officials are working with them collectively in terms of what that needs. We're also asking them specifically what they need. Now, one of the key things that Edinburgh talked about was the employment of another empty homes officer. Again, that starts to make an impact. We're asking them specifically what they need in terms of funding, but in terms of what they're doing in Edinburgh. I mentioned about the work that we're doing with the other local authorities that are declaring a housing emergency, and we're working collaboratively with them as well. I would disagree with you in terms of not working closely with them, because officials will tell you that that's not the case. We are working very closely with them. I've got to meet with Edinburgh tomorrow or Thursday to talk about the specific points around that. Obviously, we're talking about their acquisitions. We set £60 million aside last year about acquisitions, so again, that's been picked up in Edinburgh. I've taken advantage of that in terms of that. Again, we're working very closely, for example, on the Edinburgh acknowledge this, around the void issue. They've got far too many voids in the acknowledge that, so we're working very closely with them in terms of what do we need to get the void figures down? How do you get empty homes back into that as well? It's very much that partnership approach that we've got with all local authorities that have declared a housing emergency in terms of that. I'd indicated that we're in discussions with Alaccio and COSLA at the moment. We're in about a more joined-up piece of work across Scotland in terms of that, and hopefully we'll be able to come back relatively shortly on that with more details. Again, in terms of looking at that, because we need to be doing more about voids, we need to be doing more about empty homes, we need to be doing more about the allocation policies that are sitting in there, but it does come back about building more homes. We're talking about the more homes in element, and we're talking about trying to flex up the finance around that. There are real opportunities in terms of what we've got in terms of flexing up the finance system that can get more money into the sector, not to replace the grant system in addition to that. Again, you're seeing the likes, for example, of Ken Gibb coming back and saying that there needs to be more collaboration between the Scottish Government and UK Government. Ken's part of the housing investment task force, Ken's been at the committee before and is very much respected in terms of what he has to say and advises all four Governments in terms of that. Again, it's working in the sector in terms of how we get more money into the sector to build more houses, but we are working closely with the local authorities that are talking about that, including Edinburgh. Thank you. Just finally, in terms of those who have been staying in temporary accommodation, sometimes up to over two years, what works going on to look at these individuals and families? We've had discussions at committee around children in temporary accommodation, for example legally councils are only meant to be having families in for a week in temporary accommodation. It's years for many people here in Edinburgh, so what work is going on specifically around that? For example, a ban on families' pregnant women being placed in temporary accommodation with councils and a new model because I think looking towards what's happening with significant resources, I think that £27 million has been spent in Edinburgh and people being placed in temporary accommodation. Why aren't we doing different systems to get a different outcome? What works specifically then is going on within councils and Government around that because I, as an Edinburgh MSP, haven't seen any progress on that since I was elected. I think that we need to see maybe a different approach and not just keep repeating the same and hoping for a different outcome. I agree with that. I want to come back to the acquisition policy, which we have taken cognisance of and are working with that. I think again on how they allocate properties, that's something that we've had in terms of discussions with them on that, and I think that's really important. There are other pieces of work going on around about one coming back to prevention duties, for example. I mean, I went down and met one parent family in Scotland and there was some young woman who ended up in homeless situation. Part of that was that they weren't aware of what they were entitled to in terms of benefits, you know, whether that's a Scottish child payment in terms of other things that were out there. The discretionary housing payment is a really important part and, again, it comes back to ask of a new UK Government in October November time. We spend £90 million a year on discretionary housing payments. I would love to be in a position where we could spend £90 million a year on trying to support and getting families out of temporary accommodation. So, again, that's a very clear ask if a Government that comes in in October November, wherever the election is going to be, to make sure that we don't have to pay that £90 million because I think that's really important. In terms of the specific work, I mentioned the discussions going on with COSLA and Alachor. As you mentioned, families have been mentioned on and about that. I think that there are other models that could be looked at, for example, around supported accommodation. I know that you and I have talked about round alba, for example. So what do we need to do around supported accommodation? I think that there's an element of work that Edinburgh is looking at in terms of how do we support that. There's an element of social investment into that. Again, we've had a number of discussions with investors into that particular area. In round alba, we're one example, for example. I know that there's other homelessness charities in Edinburgh that are looking around about that. One of the key things that came out of the discussion last week when we were down in London, there was an institutional investor who used a few funds, homelessness accommodation, and it's a lease model. They're working with certain local authorities down in London. That model has worked. The investors get their rate of return, a low rate of return, but the money that's been saved on temporary accommodation costs, as you've been mentioned, more than meets that in terms of that. This is one of the opportunities that would come out talking to institutional investors about that lease model. Again, it's looking at that. These will be one of the issues that will be taken forward in terms of that. So how can we look at different ways to finance that as well? We spend far too much money on temporary accommodation. We need to be doing more. We're building more houses, but we need to look at more models in terms of how we get temporary accommodation to get those figures down. Again, working on allocations and acquisitions, we mentioned about voids and empty homes on a short-term basis. However, there are different models that we need to look at. I said that. Those can be discussed with COSLA and LATRO in terms of what we need to do to take that forward on a more national level, in terms of looking at other models, how we deliver temporary accommodation units, because that's part of the problem. There are models out there that we need to see where they work, how can we make them work in Scotland. That will be part of the group that the housing investment task force will continue to look at. I'm happy to discuss any issues around the better as we catch up on a regular basis. Minister, a number of stakeholders have indicated that there should be a focus at the moment on increasingly availability of social housing. Obviously, in response to the number of people who are homeless and in temporary accommodation, do you think that there should be a particular focus in investing in social housing above and beyond any other priorities at this time? Secondly, how do you respond to suggestions that this should not be driven by a national acquisition strategy? I know individual councils buy particularly ex-council houses back, but it's not a massive volume. We keep talking about avoiding housing voids. For the last 20 years, I've been hearing about housing voids and how to manage them. Here we are still deja vu all over again. We don't seem to be making that significant impact. How can we change that? How can we get a different approach on that particular point? I'll come back to the social housing one first. I think that there has to be an element of building more social housing in terms of that. That could be local authority housing. There's a piece of work that you know that has been carried out by Ken Gibb. I've mentioned Ken Eloran talking about and we days didn't commit before as what's affordable housing. Ken Gibb was asked to go away and come back with what that definition is. What is affordable housing? I think that affordable housing can be a number of things. Miles talked to me about MMR. MMR plays an important part of that, because MMR can play an important part for people who can't afford a deposit, but it's still affordable in terms of that. What does affordable housing mean? I'm looking forward to getting that piece of work from Ken and I think that Ken would probably write to the committee, I would imagine, at some stage on that particular point, because we have raised at a committee on a number of cases, and I remember doing that myself. That's important in terms of what affordable housing looks like and how to be working on that, because I don't think that we have a definition of what that actually was. I think that there has to be, and I've said this before, an all-tenure approach. There have been lots of examples and developments. I've went to where it's been all-tenure, where it has had an opportunity when you're talking about houses for sale, MMR and houses for rent. I think that there needs to be that element as well, so it has to be an all-tenure approach. In terms of how we look at the financing for local authorities in terms of what they do, the discussions that we've kind of gone on are in about the financing of local authorities and what they need to do around about housing investment task force, for example, is a really important part. It's how do we get more money into the sector? The housing investment task force minutes will show that that was discussed at that particular point. How do we get more money to local authorities? I come back to the point, for example, that Ken Gibb mentioned, about guarantees about borrowing powers and so on. He's made that very clear. I think that what was important that he's seen, and again it comes back to it, I noticed Kezia Dugdale, for example, who represented Shell, supported that paper. She came out and said that very clearly in terms of what Ken Gibb had said. I think that there's an element in it about how do we get more money, and I talked about investment discussions with local authorities and the likes of SFT and SNP and Hubco and so on. So how do we get more money into the sector? Of course, there has to be an element in social housing, but there has to be an all-tenure approach as well, because one of the key things, for example, is that we know, in the middle of another part of Scotland, there's a lot of house building going on if you're talking about 25 per cent affordable housing. If we're not building any housing through the all-tenure approach from developers, then 25 per cent is zero, because zero if we manage to get, if the house building sector itself picks up, as we hope it will, with interest rates hopefully dropping, then the element of affordable housing would obviously increase in terms of that. So it has to be an all-tenure approach, but there has to be that specific focus. One of the key things that came out in the housing investment task force and was made very clear at that particular point was that funding would be a particular focus on social housing in terms of that. It needs an all-tenure approach, but the housing investment task force was given out, and in terms of reference, we agreed that that particular point has to be focused on affordable housing in social housing. Again, that's where the work of Kenny Cymru came out, we referenced in the housing investment task force. In terms of the voids, I think that it's a really important issue. Again, for example, in Edinburgh, they talked about the number of voids they've had. There's a specific piece of work Kenny Cymru went on, and I referenced this in every discussion I had with local authorities. The meetings that we've had with the cos learner lecture around that national approach and how do we drive these down, because there are far too many. There are far too many. What does government need to do, but what do local authorities need to do in terms of that, and it comes back to the housing emergency action plans, we talked about in the discussions we have on my name, so how do we help Edinburgh to get their voids down? Part of the element in Edinburgh isn't a funding issue, it's part of it and they haven't got enough workforce to deal with that, so how do we work with them in terms of delivering that workforce? It's slightly different in different parts of Scotland. Again, it comes back to how do we look at that, but the voids issue is something that we need to make sure we're driving down, because in terms of the number of accommodation units, this could make a real difference in terms of what's there that's available to local authorities to drive that down. We shouldn't be having... There are always going to be an element of voids, there are always going to be that carry forward in terms of that. However, if we've got over 1,500, and I think that was in the discussion, it was mentioned at the round table at Miles and I of that, if they've got 1,500 voids and they're talking a number of people that are in time for accommodation, it's far too much. It's far too much now. I'll give Edinburgh thanks in terms of... They're now beginning to drive that down, but there needs to be focused nationally across Scotland, but discussions we're having with Cosly and Elantra are focused on what we need to do to deliver that to drive that down. And your views on a national acquisition strategy? I think that in terms of the £60 million that we talked to render out, I think that's made a dramatic difference in terms of that. Again, if we can try and flex the funding within the system, I think that that's a key element that we need to look around about continuing acquisitions. When the RPAs come out, the planning assumptions for local authorities in terms of that, they have the flexibility now to look at acquisitions, so there's nothing actually... They have the powers to do that now. So, again, speaking to the local officers in terms of that, they are having these local discussions. Again, we mention this to any local authority. They have the power to do that now in terms of acquisitions. So, again, we're flexible when it comes to discussions around that. So, they have the ability to do that now, in terms of as we continue to obviously try and look at more funding opportunities and flex up the funding system and that, but local authorities have the ability to do that now. The stakeholders also were keen to stress that focus on social housing shouldn't mean that we neglect pursuing retrofitting and building green homes. A couple of things in that. How can we continue to pursue the goal of zero emissions from homes? An example that I might give you is that I have quite a number of constituents living in conservation areas who are unable to install solar panels, unable to install anything that would contribute towards zero emissions. I know that other councils also take the same view. Apparently, the legislation does not permit them to allow that sort of development in a conservation area. You're never going to get zero emissions if conservation areas aren't allowed to pursue those. And the other thing is what progress is made on the green heat finance task force? The green heat finance task force, I understand, is due to report. I think that it was indicated and I'll double check this. I think that it was around about the end of April, it was what I'm aware of now. I referenced that earlier on because it comes back to the specific advice that would be for local authorities and housing associations. And you're right. I mean it's raised in terms of discussions and I think that Stephanie mentioned it before around about where do you reference repairs, where do you reference in terms of retrofitting, for example, and investment into new stock. We need to get that clarity in about the green heat finance task force and what opportunities are there. And I think the figure we discussed at this committee was £33 billion in Scotland, but it would create 15 to 20,000 jobs. And that has to be underwritten institutional investment. I think the figure in the UK is about it's over a trillion pounds. So again, when you're talking about what that needs to be done and about that, it's going to take institutional investment. There are various models that I know that are being discussed and debated in the green heat finance task force in terms of what does that look like and specifically what does that look like for local authorities and housing associations. So we need to clarity on that. I think that hopefully the report that will come out will give a bit of clarity in terms of that and what does it look like for local authorities. That has to be underwritten by the early strategies. There's heat and energy efficiency strategies. The strategies have been produced for local authorities. They're now moving on to deliverability plans. So I know there's a lot of work, for example, going on a new slowdown, as you know, in terms of what's being developed. Each local authority is doing that. What does deliverability look like? In terms of the conservation areas, there's a permitted rights development review going on at the moment in terms of what does that look like and what do we need to do again in terms of, for example, if you were looking to put on solar panels, it becomes impossible. If you look at the windows, it becomes impossible. So the review going on about the permitted rights development at the moment to see what that looks like to feed into that. Because you're right, it's going to be an element, a big part of some particular areas where they're in conservation areas. What does that look like? So there's a review going on in terms of that. That just now. So the next six months, and that area I think is incredibly important, but we need to do it. There is no doubt we need to do it, but how do we make that work financially? Both for individual householders, but for local authorities and housing associations, as part of that broader discussion about investment and how they deal with conditions of properties and so on. So, and again, I would get into the committee, but I'm sure when that task force supports there'll be some kind of discussion in the debate. I'm sure we need to be held about that. So when is that review going to be completed? How will we see a report? I'm not sure of John. Well, I can talk about it. I can come back to you on that. I'm not going to comment, but I know that it's an on-going review just now, but I can come back to you on that particular point. I'm right to committee on that particular point. Okay, thank you. Thank you, convener. Thanks very much. Very useful questions and responses. I'm going to bring in Stephanie Callaghan now. Thanks, convener. Minister, I appreciate you have touched on this already just at the start with Ariane. I'd like to ask a little bit more about tenants and residents. It was really good to hear, don't mention the start of the external phase and that you personally are planning to visit lots of different communities there directly. Because I think we can all agree that it's vital tenants and residents who do inform and influence, because people's homes have such a huge impact on their wellbeing and their health. So I'd be interested to hear more about how the Scottish Government will seek to involve local communities, tenants and residents in delivering the ambitions of housing to 2040, and also how you'll know if outcomes have improved for communities actually on the ground and embed that going forward. I think one of the most important points that we have a representative of tenants residents on the housing to 2040 strategy group, I think that it's really important to get their point of view so that they feed in to that. Again, that recognises being a really important member of that. I've visited and been a number of tenants and residents group meetings and conferences where it's been discussed. And again, I think it's really important. I mean, I was a cancer for 15 years. I tried to set up tenants and residents groups. It's really, really important part if any vote goes on. So I think the very point that there's member of the housing to 2040 group, I think it's incredibly important because they can then feed in to the wider strategy. Again, engaging with the group, and I tried to meet them probably in every six months, but there's a national organisation that can represent them in terms of that. I probably try and meet them every six months to discuss that, but I have spoke at a number of tenant and residents conferences on this particular point in Q&A's, for example, in terms of that. But having their views represented in the strategy group, I think it's incredibly important, but meeting them on a regular basis to discuss some of the issues. The retrofitting element in that comes in and their role in terms of how they then speak to their own groups around about what does that look like, because part of the challenges around about the retrofitting is the communication that we can talk about. So what does that look like? So at the moment we're talking about, I suppose, it's the development stage. Once we actually start moving on that, we move beyond the LHU strategy, and it's starting to look authorities and housing associations. And private residents start to look around about what does this actually mean for me? That's a really important part of tenants and residents groups that can come in and can feed in to that. And they have to. And again, because it's real change that we need to be developing in terms of... We only need to do it. It's a big, big challenge to actually then go and deliver it, but we need to do it. Ten and housing groups are incredibly important part of that. So I look forward to discussing that with them going forward. In able to say any more about outcomes, as far as that's concerned, would that be part of a similar... In terms of... In terms of the outcomes improving for communities and for individuals and for residents, as we move forward? I think one of the key things for that will be the indicators part of it and what does that kind of look like, because we can all see anecdotally is it working or is it not? What does it actually look like? And I think one of the key things, I think that's kind of still being discussed. And I think one of the... Again, this kind of comes back to the LHU strategies, because the LHU strategies shouldn't just include what do we need to do in terms of fabric first? What do we need to do in terms of heating systems, like district heating systems around that at all? What is the information that needs to go around about that and what's the support around that? I think it's really important that we get indicators going on about that particular point. I can come back to you in more detail around that. A lot of that will come down to what the local authorities are doing in terms of that themselves, how they monitor that and how that's fed in to the Scottish Government in terms of that. But that needs to be part of an early strategy. It's not just around about how much money is it costing, where is it going, what are the heating systems? Is it how do we then get out with that information that's required to do that? I know when we spoke at the Skyline and Calais conference we talked about, part of that was how did they get information? And I know, and again I talked about Insulate and a mix small, on how do they get out and speak to the communities that are out there and how do you indicate that? That needs to be and there needs to be metrics around about that and how we develop that. But that should be part of the LHU strategies. By the end of this year it's talking about the deliverability stage, not just the strategy, how are you actually going to deliver this? Of course it's going to be a challenge, but the information that we get out and how we measure that is an incredibly important part of it. I think that that's been developed with local authorities at the moment. Thanks very much. We've got a few more questions to go. I'm going to bring in Mark Griffin. Thanks, convener. We know that housing circumstances vary fairly dramatically across the country, particularly when you look at urban and rural. I wonder how successful the minister feels that housing to 2040 has been addressing the differences between urban and rural housing needs and demands and whether there's going to be any assessment going forward as to essentially how well particular rural needs are being served by 2040. I think that that's a really important question. I think that housing to 2040 acknowledges that. There was a rural housing action plan that came out in October. And again, I think that there's a review going on. There were short-term indicators that were carried out medium-term and long-term. So there's a review going on just now and about what the short-term indicators are and how we're looking at that and in terms of that. I think that to pass part the rural housing action plan I think that I said I would come back to either committee or Parliament at that stage in terms of saying look here's an update one year on in terms of that. So we're very transparent around about that so happy to come back to committee or to Parliament in terms of that later on this year. You know, we've had a year of a year in October in terms of that. I indicated how important it was for me in terms of last year going out for the visits and I'll do that again this year because again I think it's very different even within the rural communities themselves in terms of that talked about the importance of the work that SSN are doing in terms of that. Because again there's an element if you're talking about the renewables hubs for example and I'll come back to the point you mentioned about renewables hubs if we're talking about the requirement for Western Isles for example they're talking about roughly a thousand jobs that that would bring it can't just be running about the main population centres it has to be spread across the whole communities it's the same for example on Inverness it's the same in Chetland it's the same in Orkney for example so that needs to be developed as well in terms of actually the importance that I think I'd come back in the main statement we've talked about the rural housing funding let's say we talked about the rural housing funding for key workers there needs to be more with local authorities and I mentioned that I was down and talking to to Argyll and Buton in terms of that there needs to be that strategic overview we had around table with some key employers around about that again so there's work being carried out in terms of that but the key thing is coming back and making that statement to either yourselves or our Parliament which I'd said right at the start of this that we'd be happy to to do that in terms of being held to account and how successful that has been in terms of housing at the 24th but also in terms of what we need to do and again we've had these discussions that will continue to develop if we'd seen three or four years ago around the opportunities around the renewables for example that's not something I think it would be in consideration then now it's an incredibly important part of what we need to do going forward it can bring jobs it can also bring that house and so how do we make sure we're connecting the housing and the employability because if we don't get that but right then it's going to create problems around the homelessness but it's also going to an opportunity to talk about legacy housing which the SSCN are really keen to sit down and discuss with us but happy to come back to committee in October time or go back to Parliament I think we'd indicated we would do that anyway but it's an incredibly important part of what we need to do because it is completely different as you said than urban and rural communities and it comes back to part of the issues as well because we talked about construction inflation you've probably had another 15 to 20% in terms of costs when you go in terms of delivering homes in rural communities it becomes even more challenging in terms of that so again the discussions we've been having with local authorities in rural communities is how do we deliver such as rural housing and how do we deliver the key workers funding and how do we look at the renewables opportunities of that as well or can they all ties in in terms of that and the housing investment task force again coming back to that specific point was asked not just to look at funding for urban communities but a real focus on rural housing as well so how do we make sure that it's not just looking at urban communities it's going at rural opportunities and how do we fund that and the particular challenges that they face so again that will be referenced in the housing investment task force in reports and it's a key piece of work that's kind of going forward okay thanks thanks and of course in the case of rural communities and island communities there's requirements around the whole government strategy on repopulation maintaining population and also the islands the islands act and the work in there so lots of things to support us making sure that we've got that nuanced approach I'm going to bring in Pam Gosall thank you convener new statistics from March highlight a significant drop in housing completions and starts in Scotland Homes for Scotland underscores that most critical challenges are around the underfunding planning system taking over 62 weeks for a major housing application and a regulatory environment that hampers rather than promotes new home delivery what bold action is needed to support housing delivery across the 10 years all 10 years minister can you touch the news briefly I think that one is resource and I think this committee discussed this before in terms of this about the resource that's required so there's a resource the resource review that's kind of going on just now I think it's really incredibly important I think that that's again working with Homes for Scotland are part of that I mentioned about the housing round table the planning round table we had Homes for Scotland again we're involved in that and we're having discussions with the chief heads of planning at the moment and I think in other words I think that it's been productive so far there's another round table planned in terms of how we look at that I think that's one part of the resource two is how to be and I think there's an element in terms of the transition the feedback certainly we've got is a transition from NPF 4 to NPF NPF 3 to NPF 4 in terms of what does that look like and what's the I suppose the transition from then I think that's incredibly important and then comes back I think in terms of the deliverability it's focused on resource I think that's incredibly important part is how do we get that plan in time down in terms of that but it does come back as I said to the round table we're having an independent transition and that's certainly feedback cos Joe Fitzpatrick and I have joint meetings with Homes for Scotland and this issue is raised so there's you know part of the reason we had the round table was around the back the resource review obviously feeds into that as well so obviously we need to be looking at the planning system that works as effectively as possible so these pieces of work continue to to on-going and again happy to come back or you know maybe through Mr Fitzpatrick and reporting up progress on these and again I think part of then comes back to if we're delivering the number of hours I mean he come back to the point you said it in the bit and the delivery starts I think it comes back to how we how do we support the SME sector as well in terms of that because obviously there's more I suppose vulnerable to the situations in terms of you know if interest rates go up or whatever or boring costs go up we've seen that you know that that can mean so how do we support the SME sector so the discussion's going on about how we support the SME sector as well but the resource review and how we make sure the transition from NPF 3 to NPF 4 into local development plans and again you know they've done the work on the demand they're coming in the vigil of the scullions for example with local authorities and then about what does local development plan what does the matler process involve in terms of that so again that kind of all feeds into that but it is around the bit resource it is around about making sure the system works effectively as possible no thank you minister but you know it takes over six to two weeks for a major application that's quite a long time and I know there's a lot of detailed work to be done on that application and planning however that's quite a long time and especially when you speak about SMEs or businesses that are basically just making ends meet and balancing the books what's your opinion on that on the six to two weeks? Yeah I know I haven't been Councillor for 15 years sometimes if there are larger developments they do take a longer period of time six to two weeks is too long and I think the part of the resource review has indicated that in terms of making sure and there's also a piece of work with Home for Scotland for example in terms of the because it's got to be a partnership in terms of the actual information that's provided at the start of an application and because again there might be on-going back and forward discussing we need this we need this we need this in terms of that and I've seen that in applications when I was a councillor at particular time you know it can go back and you might be it might wait a particular bit of time before you get the information back it's also talking to and again the review as part of that is where does SEPA come in where does Scottish Water come in in terms of that and how do they quicken their processes as well so I know they've been part of the discussions for example around about reducing that number of work Mr Fitzpatrick probably the best person that's speaking about the specific discussions but I know there's been discussions with SEPA Scottish Water the statutory consultees if you like in terms of that reducing that period of time we need to be reducing that and I know it varies in different parts of Scotland so again it's learning from best practices in other parts of Scotland in terms of what it looks like but we need to bring that down but as I said the resource review around tables we've been having another one we've got planned you know we'll hopefully begin to show some progress on that particular point thank you minister I've got one more question we know that public finances are stretched and they're very tight at the moment how can private investment be further encouraged in Scotland's housing sector witnesses suggested that investors seek more certainty what steps can the Scottish Government take to offer that assurance I'll come back the housing investment task force was pulled together for that specific point was pulled together banks, the institutional investors in terms of that the actual local authorities housing associations in terms of that so that's looking at the barriers that are there to investment and the opportunities that are around about that so I think that's a really important piece of work and I think the feedback we had from the first meeting was incredibly positive so actually having all the potential funders involved in terms of that it is one part I had met in London in October met 25 institutional investors talking about that got around table this Thursday with investors again talking about that in terms of the housing bill where is that can they fit in in terms of that we're talking about the broader flexing up with the finance system in terms of so we're talking about how you're getting snub involved in SFT involved how we look at hubco and in terms of that so again that's not institutional investment but it's trying to flex the system we've already got there I talked about that used to guarantees for example that that would be really useful in terms of being able to offer that to investors and so on so there's lots of discussions kind of going on the housing investment task force is the main part but there's lots of pieces of work going on around about that but it's I've met with the housing and round table institutions there's now institutional investors probably in about half a dozen times and that will continue to develop and particularly through the housing investment task force which will report on the in terms of where they think the barriers are what the opportunities are in terms of flexing up that whole system but we need that you know we need that it's not to replace what we've already got in terms of London it's to supplement that because the demand is there it's pure and simple demand is there we need to look at different opportunities about bringing money in institutional investment is an incredibly important part of that and I talked about for example not just in terms of housing but at least model for example down in different parts of London around about providing temporary accommodation as well so there's and for example but social investment housing working with homelessness and this charity switch I know there's about half a dozen in in Scotland that are already looking at that model in terms of that and there are models already in place where that can be worked so it's just trying to flex at the system but institutional investment is is is vitally important in terms of what we need to do well I look forward to you know the feedback from the task group because if there's something that was said on our round table you know a couple of weeks ago was about the supply the fact that we don't have that housing supply and it's important that we have that investment and certainty is key and I think that that meant and that's another point I think it's been really important I mean I met with a couple of examples one that I met with the city region team in Edinburgh asked for a mean and we talked about there about seven or eight housing developments strategic housing developments that need to be put forward so we just kind of discussed that in terms of how do we bring that forward and the one in it the discussion that came at the end and said look is it an investment prospectus that you need yeah so there are a way of developing that just now and we'll come back to in terms of that I think it's an opportunity to sit down investors to say how do you deliver on that and we're then talking around about I've had a discussion and asked for a meeting with the city's alliance so the city's alliance obviously is really important in terms of what they need to do to deliver housing for example and redevelopment at city centres so again Glasgow's doing something similar to the city region element in terms of that but it's also looking at about what investment do we need and for institutional investment in terms of the main cities in Scotland so again the city's alliance are almost trying to do part of that work as well in terms of that so what's the demand that we can try and generate for example around about the city region in Edinburgh and Glasgow but what can we do around about the city's alliance and what investment do we do that because we then start and aggregate that figure and speaking to investors you're talking about a huge substantial amount of money that over a period of time would need institutional investment as well as Scottish grant funding as well as trying to flex up the system we already have at the moment around about housing so it's an element of trying to bring all these together but there are the demand is there how do we finance that is the most important part and this is where we're talking about the flexing and the finance system that we've got at the moment and the housing investment task force to try and look at that in a whole and again as I said the housing investment task force will be I think Joe had mentioned around about the first minutes coming out of that pretty shortly but that was certainly it was encouraging some of the ideas and whatever we had coming forward at that time the group itself will bring forward recommendations thank you thanks very much it's interesting to hear over the course of the morning about the work of the housing investment task force and you know the potential for that you also mentioned the work of Professor Ken Gibb a number of times and one of the things that he brought up in the round table that he attended is a concern around the ambition in housing to 2040 to despeculate the housing market and I just wonder how you keep that in mind how the housing to 2040 strategy group discuss that how that's kept in mind because at the kind of foundation or the heart of everything we're talking about is probably that whole speculative aspect that's entered into the market so how do we how do we move away from that and really get to that place where Scotland's providing homes for people I think that's important Ken is a part of the housing investment task force so again feeding in his input will be really valuable in terms of that and again you know he talked about data I know for to do some piece of work around about that so that will be developed as part of the housing investment task force and I think the reason that Ken was kind of asked was to give that broad kind of overview because it's not if we're talking about flexing up the system and talking about an institutional investment that balance across all tenures is really important so I think having Ken's influence on that talking about despeculating the market I think is one of the key things so it's not saying it's systemic change but we have to look at it has to be a whole systems approach we can't just change one part of it or another part of it it's that whole system and having Ken as part of that I think is really important to give that that academic input into that and I think as I said Ken advises all the Governments in the UK in terms of that so you know his overview of what's so available for example on guarantees and UK Government and I think he mentioned that in his article in the Herald talked to him about other opportunities for Scottish Government to look at guarantees that might help us in terms of that when being any additional costs to UK Government but it would be really helpful so his input in terms of that and trying to get that system whole system approach is really important and you know Ken I think will feed in from the academic point of view in terms of that and we heard that from the group itself when we talked about innovative finance the housing to 2040 group itself they talked about one of the main priorities right now short term is is how we flex up the finance system the housing investment task force is looking at that as well as other issues around about that but your talk is not just in delivering more housing but developing you know if we're talking about temporary accommodation how can we look at models around that as well so but Ken I think will give us that balance with the expertise that he's got good yes I'm glad you've got somebody on board who's got that awareness of that despeculation so if we don't I'm sure he'll tell us that we're not doing that so good good well I just want to say thanks so much for oh actually Mark you've got a supplementary come on in yep thanks I think it's right that we look for sources of finance from wherever we can when we're in a housing emergency I just wanted to maybe reflect a degree of nervousness I think that I'm picking up from social landlords when it comes to potentially changing the balance of funding affordable housing even if it's ever so slightly away from grants to sources of private finance and I wonder whether the minister might reflect on how we would make sure that when we are bringing in potentially other sources of funding that the end result isn't that the burden of the return on investment which investors will rightly expect doesn't fall on the tenant and I think that's really important because the discussions we had for example we talked to around about we discussed for example with housing associations and local authorities were obviously slightly different so we talked about discussions with SFT, SNP, hubco for example that broader housing investment task force so we've got local authorities represented on that obviously to input into that there should be an addition not in terms of trying to replace or supplement and the discussions that we're on going around about institutional investment have probably been going on further in about nine months that I've mentioned for example in October having discussions with institutional investors I want to be in the same position as other countries in Europe I don't have the ability to go out and borrow money to build houses it's as simple as that I don't so I need to look at how we flex up that system in terms of what we've got just now but very clear none and I've said it and I'll say it here it's not to replace the funding it's to supplement the funding and I think when we talked about what housing 2040 strategy group said they talked about it in a way of financing so the group itself I've seen this as a really important part the devil is in the detail in terms of so there are discussions on going for example with SNP and SFT and Hubco with local authorities and landlords in terms of what does it actually look like where does it give them the comfort so it's going down into that level of detail where do they need that now the use of guarantees might be something in terms of that can he give some reassurance so it's not and it can't be in terms of if we're getting institutional investment where does where the rent levels go it can't be at that level so there has to be that balance again with housing investment task force in the discussions we haven't local authorities and our ourselves are included in that so they're inputting into that process they're part of that process in terms of going forward but yet it's not to it's not to replace it's to supplement of what's there it's to try to get more money into the system but they're fully involved in terms of the discussions that are on going so there's not going to be anything that'll be decided in terms of you know the recommendations coming forward without their input into that and again it'll come back to the House in 24 group and again where they've got a major part of that they'll obviously be their inclusion into the debate in terms of that as well so that it's not a side and we talked a bit delivered about reviewing housing investment task force they are fully integral in that in that part of it okay thank you it okay thanks and I'm going to bring in Stephanie Callahan thanks very much computer I will be brief minister just to go back slightly and touch on what Pam was talking about there about the length of time for planning applications and as a previous councillor myself as well I've seen how much interaction there is how many visits for example the discussions the council planning staff et cetera there to get the detail right and make sure they are so I suppose it was just looking for a little bit of reassurance that that work is recognised and that that won't be compromised and also that they kind of the statutory pre-application consultations for your major housing developments with residents and communities that that won't be compromised as well and you're right I mean there has to be that balance I mean the pre-application consultations come in a number of years ago and I think that's really valued in terms of where it is and it's really important I know that can be varied across different parts in the country and the different developers but it's a really really important part of it and it comes back to the point I think that the convener made it in about place plans if we're getting developments that are coming forward developers should be looking at the place plans that are kind of there and I think that's really important that it can't just be there's a development running and it's not taking any cognisance to place plans because again people are getting suspicious in terms of going on and saying what's the point of a place plan and there's a lot of work goes into these place plans in terms of that and again this is where it's got to be fit sorry apologies into local development plans and making sure that there's a flow from place plans into local development plans through to actual developers coming forward that recognise that and I think that there has been progressed and I think that we've continued to be progressed in terms of that and it does come back to the whole pointer in about that it's a two-way process between developers and local authorities to make sure that the information that's sent in is what they need at that particular point because again that quickens it up as well as how do we make sure that CEPA and Scottish Water and other strategic consultees come back in terms of that so that's that broader kind of discussion but we need we do need and it comes back to the point that Pam mentioned we do need to reduce that period of time but we can't we can't at the the detriment to local communities Yeah, I suppose that's just really good to hear because certainly I have seen really positive influences from that community consultation as well and it really making changes and making an impact and it being much better as a result Thanks Thanks very much that certainly is very resuring to hear from you that developers should be looking at the local place plans and I think that will help us get to that sense of place and it'll be interesting to see how that develops and in the years to come so I just want to say thanks so much for a very long but useful thorough morning session our first committee back after a brief recess and as we agreed at the start of the meeting to take the next three items in private I now close the public part of the meeting