 Welcome to Dare to Dream. My name is Debbie Daschinger and I teach business owners, coaches and speakers the time effective action steps to write a highly engaging book. Turn each author's book into a guaranteed international bestseller and I show you how to book, podcast, guest interview spots to sell with ease. To get your sheet that's filled with free tips on writing a book and being interviewed, go to debbiedaschinger.com slash message my gift to you. It's D-E-B-B-I-D-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-R.com slash message. Dare to Dream show this podcast has been nominated for two People's Choice Podcast Awards and a Webby Award. We are consistently ranked as a top podcast in self-improvement in the USA. And this week we are trending in Belarus, Uruguay and St. Lucia. So thank you everybody for understanding this number one transformation conversation and being a part of this journey. My guest today is a return. It is his third time on the show and I'm very excited to have Whitley Strieber back again. Alternative news, science, abduction, UFOs, alien counters and lessons from the visitors. These are all subjects that I am very interested in and I'm glad to know that you are too. Whitley Strieber is an American writer best known for his horror novels, The Wolf and the Hunger and for communion, a non-fiction account of his experiences with non-human entities. He has maintained a very dual career as an author of fiction and an advocate of paranormal concepts through his best-selling non-fiction books, his unknown country website and his internet podcast called Dreamland. If you'd like to find out more about him or sign up and subscribe to his website and more go to unknowncountry.com. And with that, I welcome Whitley back to the show. It's great to have you. It's great to be back. I'm so excited and looking forward to another terrific kind of conversation. Yeah, me as well. Thank you so much. And I just want to start out by saying, I know that something special happened on June 13th that you were born and so your birthday is coming up and early happy birthday to you, Whitley. How do you plan to spend your birthday or celebrate? Well, first of all, I was born so long ago, I can't remember. I remember it, but I'm gonna spend it with my family. My most recent grandson was born the day before. But he's three instead of 76. And so it's his third birthday, it's the 12th. And right before he was born, his mama said, then I'm not gonna make it till tomorrow. And I said, that's not a problem, honey. So he's on the 12th and I'm the 13th. Well, that's beautiful, Gem and I. So summer birthday, that's very nice. And four months ago was the last time you were on the show. Can you give me an update about, so that was basically in the winter, here we are heading into the summer. What are you diving into right now? I know you said you're really, really busy being interviewed, which thrills me by the way, you should be. Like everybody, I think, should be wanting to hear more about you and your work. What's new in your life right now? Well, the world has changed a lot for months specifically. There's been so much UFO material released in one way or another, either by Lou Elizondo or by official sources within the government that it's now become impossible to believe rationally that they aren't real. I mean, there's one physicist who said, obviously doesn't know much about, much about electronic siting systems. He said, oh, well, they must be, they're obviously birds and it's just an illusion that they appear to be going that fast. Of course, when you're taping something through an infrared site, one of the things that they work very, very hard on in the defense industry is to make sure that those sites can track things down to the hundredth of a kilometer in speed so that when the missile is fired, it won't miss. So obviously they're not birds and the cameras aren't experiencing an optical illusion. And another one said, oh, well, they're just reflections on the cockpit windows. But I think that since the cameras are not in the cockpits that both of these guys, I'm not gonna say their names because they must be a little embarrassed by now. Well, one of them sets show stacks probably not embarrassed but the other one is probably embarrassed. So what's basically happening is that we have to face the fact that these unknown objects that we've all seen are real. And but what does real mean? That's where nobody's stopping. Everybody's going on to, oh, they're alien spacecraft, presumably with little men hunched up in them and flying around right next to each other. What? We don't know that. We don't know what they are. We don't have any evidence that they are from another world. We don't know, we absolutely don't even know if they are real in the way that we think of things as real. We know that they can be detected by infrared sensitive cameras because they therefore they're giving off heat in this world or they wouldn't be seen. They can be detected by radar at times, but not always. They can disappear without warning though. Now, what does that tell us? It's a fascinating question because when we don't understand something, we say, oh, well, they just disappear. But there's a reason for it of some kind. The reason is that they have a cloaking technology. We've got cloaking technology. It's quite wonderful ones that one type that I don't know if it's deployed by the United States but it is by some other countries where tiny cameras can be kind of painted on a surface and little tiny screens kind of painted on another surface. When you turn this on, the cameras send the image from above the thing to the surface below. And below it looks like it's just disappeared. It's quite amazing stuff. Now it doesn't work obviously up close but with an airplane, it's an excellent form of visual camouflage. Not gonna fool radar or anything. In any case, things like that exist with us. If somebody is getting here from a long distance, well, maybe things like that, more sophisticated things like that can also exist. And I'm talking about a personal experience with that in a couple of minutes. The other possibility, there are two really, that they're coming from another dimension, another reality. We don't know enough about that to even know whether or not that's possible. But it doesn't seem to be barred by anything that we understand about the way reality works. And there are plenty of physicists who would say that this is possible because there are many parallel universes, possibly some of them even occupying essentially the same space we are but in a slightly different way. There's yet a third possibility that's developed just recently that's fascinating. And that is, we have always thought that wormholes that enabled you to go from one part of the universe to another instantaneously were essentially impossible because you have to bend the whole universe in order to make two parts of it touch together even briefly. And to do that, you obviously need more energy than is in the universe, you can't bend it, you have to be, so we're not gonna get that. But recently there have been a couple of papers suggesting that it is possible to make a wormhole that's human traversable. Now, if we think that's possible now, what if somebody's 100 years ahead of us? Or a thousand or a million, it might be ordinary for them. When we see aliens walking into our living rooms, they might have just walked out of their own living rooms on the other side of the universe. And these devices that we see might be disappearing and reappearing, not because they're going into a parallel universe or being clipped but because they are literally crossing the vastness of this universe in an instant. Isn't it fun to think about things like this? I just have it, I have such fun with this. I have to admit, I am having a lot of fun right now because my mind is really turning over because of all of these provocative questions that are coming up, I love good questions. And what about the possibility about the government? About the government, I'm sure you have talks about this or read about this, the government possibly having programs where they come in and they can literally take you or stop time, there are abductions on that level. What are your intentions about that? I don't know much, I don't think, I'm not sure the government knows much about the government anymore. And the reason being that they have been, we have this system of classification and secrecy which is compartmentalized by need to know. You get to know something if you need to. But here's the problem, who decides that? And there's a lot of politics, I'm sure, behind the scenes about who gets need to know on various things because that's power. And anytime information is power and anytime that's involved and you've got a big bureaucracy, everybody's toying around with everybody else's power. So I think that behind the scenes, we have entered anarchy. I think it's completely chaotic. I don't think anybody knows finally what's going on. I'll tell you, years ago, this whole thing that's happening now happened on a smaller scale in the sense that a Senate Select Committee on Intelligence back in the mid-90s was asking questions of the National Security Agency and some other alphabets what they knew about this subject of UFOs. I got pulled into it because of my family connections with the Roswell incident. And I'd written a book called Majestic that the people involved rightly suspected had things in it that were true. It was a novel because I don't have any documentation. It's not all true. It's some of its fiction, believe me, and a lot of it is pretty much what I understood from General Arthur Exxon and from my uncle at Colonel Edward Street. In any case, one of the things they found was an air force base that appeared to be a complete air force base, not a big one, a small air force base somewhere in the Midwest was what I understood was the case that wasn't actually on the Pentagon's list at all, a roster of American bases at all. And the people on it were being paid with what appeared to be checks from the United States Treasury, but that's not what they were coming from. Now, unfortunately, they clammed up on me and they didn't tell me any more than that. But if that's true, then Richard Dolan is probably not wrong. There probably is a whole breakaway civilization of some kind out there and it's possible that people who are in it are living among us. They wouldn't have to live in special housing or anything, they could live right here and be part of it. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's certainly worth thinking about. Yeah, yeah. And earlier you said that considering the different options of what's possible right now, including the wormhole, and that you mentioned that you have a personal story that you will share, what is that story? Well, it's a good story, I'll tell you. I've thought about it many times and I think it's probably written about it too, but I'll tell you. Years ago, right after the communion film was made, a documentary filmmaker called Drew Cummings came up to our cabin to make a documentary about the cabin and so forth to support the film. And we had, my wife had an uncanny ability to choose people to come up to the cabin who would have experiences there. It was quite extraordinary. And so she had made some good choices as it turned out and of two people in particular, Lori Barnes and secretary who was also an experiencer and Raven Dana who is a lifelong experiencer to this day. And they were there, there was another woman there as well, Drew Cummings and his wife were there and the following thing happened. Now I will add that my son and I were sleeping in the woods, we were camping out because two of the women who were there were using his bedroom because we only had one guest room. So Anne was upstairs in bed. The two women were in Andrew's room and Raven was alone in the guest room. Drew and his wife were in the living room on a full out couch. Andrew and I were in the woods. And the following thing happened. In the middle of the night, oh, I might add that Drew had a low light camera on the video camera pointing down the hallway in hopes of picking something up. In the middle of the night, Raven Dana was awakened by something jumping, dropping down onto her bed. She opened her eyes and at first she thought, my God, a raccoon's gotten in. And then she remembered, wait a minute, at least got all the windows screwed closed. I had all the screens screwed closed and there were alarm systems all over the place. You can imagine why. I mean, I was a bit on edge about things that went bump in the night because in my life they actually were there. Anyway, then she realized, just no, it's one of Whitley's little men. And she saw this being with these great big black eyes and it reached out his hand and she held its hand. She touched its hand and she said, Whitley, the most wonderful energy came out of its hand into my body. I know that very well. It's a wonderful feeling to be touched by this level of presence. It's lovely. This kind of pulsating low level electricity goes through your body and you know right away that it's really healthy. It's really a good feeling. And, but it also immobilizes you. You can't move while it's happening. It overcomes your nervous system. So she's there with that. And she hears in her mind, what can I do to help you? And she says aloud, you could walk down that hall, which of course was where the camera was. So then it leaves the room. And Lori Barnes and Raven Dana, I mean, Lori Barnes and the other lady, they see it and it wakes them up and they see it. Then it goes down the hall and Drew Cummings wakes up and sees this little man standing beside the bed and it scares the living daylights out of him. Whereupon the head turns into the head of a hawk. And it's like a, they react like that. They can do things to your mind. And they're like, it's like a defense mechanism, like a blowfish. If a blowfish feels threatened, it blows itself up and makes itself. Well, the same way, if they feel threatened, these little beings feel threatened, they turn to the head of a hawk. Beings feel threatened. They turn into something scary. Do they actually shape shift or? Oh, I have no idea what's going on there. That's way beyond where we are now. I'm only telling you what people can see. I talk about this experience a lot in my book, A New World, because it's an important experience because there's a communication going on here. He's saying all kinds of things about himself, about the world, about who he is, and it related to another appearance that he had made a few months before at another house up the road and so on and so forth. So it's very complex what's going on. Then he disappears. Now that's about four o'clock in the morning. Dawn comes and Andrew and I come up across the little hill out of the woods. And we see now the house before us, the deck with the pool in it, and the cabin, side of the cabin. Something comes out the front door, moves down the porch and down the deck right in front of our eyes. And as it looks like a small hooded figure that's translucent. Now it goes out across the backyard and races off into the trees, but it doesn't go through the trees. It goes around them. So you see it moving very quickly and sort of darting around the trees and then it's gone. Now, at that same, we then go into the house and Drew and his wife are on their feet because they've been hit by a massive blast of heat and they thought the bed had caught on fire and or was gonna catch on fire. Now here's what probably happened. When it disappeared before Drew Cummings' eyes, it had done something that made light move around it. That would take control of gravity in its immediate personal space. Now, if you're gonna do that, you need energy and you're gonna, if you're using energy, you're gonna be generating heat. As soon as Andrew and I appeared, you had had to get out of there. And because the room's gonna fill up with people in a few minutes and someone's gonna step on it or hit it or something because it was there. You just couldn't see it. So it released enough of the energy to enable it to move. That's when the heat was released into the room and Drew and his wife thought the room, the bed had caught on fire, but not so much that you could see it clearly and that's why it was still translucent when it ran off into the woods. What we're looking at here is a remarkable being with a story to tell, a very complex story about Horace and about time and about his place in the world, which I go into in a new world a lot, but we're also looking at some very real technology that we can almost understand on that fascination. Yeah, that is incredible. And I did love the book, by the way. Beautiful of the audible too. Worth it, really worth it. And some great stories in there. So compelling, I think, some of the things you bring up in the book that cause us to question what we consider reality, including how the dead commune with the visitors and the various visitors and the experiences that you've had and taking all sorts of shape and form. And it also strikes me, as you tell this story, how sentient they are, how empathetic in a way to touch somebody and cause them to feel so many good feelings and to care enough to ask the question, what can I do for you? Of course you can. And then proceed to not do it because there was never anything on the video. We didn't find a thing. Is that right? I have had now over 30 years of trying to get a picture, a video, anything. The visitors show up in this house fairly frequently, sometimes even physically, although not. Sometimes that I can see them. I can often feel them and they will touch me and so forth and so on. But when they show up, the surveillance cameras, you know what happens to them? They turn off. They look like they're still on. In other words, they still appear to be functioning. There's nothing saying the camera turned off or anything because when I turn them off, the app on my phone will immediately tell me that the cameras are off. But that doesn't happen. But then the next morning, you'll see the images are being taken and then suddenly it's just blank for 20 minutes or so and then it starts again. And why? Because they were here and they didn't want to bother with dealing with being invisible or whatever. While they were here, only did I see them? I sometimes will have a tiny memory, but not much. But what I do get out of it is a lot of wonderful ideas and every book I've written since Annie passed away, which are Afterlife Revolution, A New World, and Jesus and New Vision, is because of this relationship, which is in part with her, in part with a whole lot of people who were physical and aren't now or are not at the moment. And what I consider to be beings of unknown origin who are not in a physical state, usually, but can be if they wish. Some time ago, you talked about how the visitors told you that there is an organic quality in our skulls that dampens telepathy and that they were prophesizing or giving you the information this is going to fade. Do you have any updated information on that? Are we in a trajectory right now of our telepathy coming fully into play? Well, that's an interesting question because I hadn't remembered that, but you're right. I do remember saying that and they did say that to me and that they would fade. And that could be an explanation for the fact that almost without noticing it, I think, a lot of people are beginning to become telepathic, very subtly, it's not noticeable. I know it's happening to me and it's rather startling when I'm with somebody and I think something and then they respond to it as if I've said it. And that happens not frequently, but I'd say in the past month it's happened three or four times and two years ago it never happened. So they're picking up on something and I'm picking up on something from there. It's so subliminal that we're not conscious of it yet but I think that may very well be happening slowly. It better hurry up because we're getting into a major environmental crisis here. I mean, you've got a drought problem in the Western United States that's catastrophic or in another year if this drought hasn't broken, this is gonna be a major disaster. They're gonna be people having to migrate within the United States, not just people trying to come in from other countries, but they're gonna be people all over the Southwest who have to leave because they have no water. Yeah, and we've always said water is, well, we're water too just like the earth is and needed water is incredibly important. There's a reason why it's as within so without. So yeah, I really hear you. And I hope that we are becoming more compassionate because of everything we've gone through to start to create some solutions to these issues that affect everybody. We better because we're running out of time and the days of climate change denial are over. We have to face the fact that that was a mistake and we gotta do something about it right now because it's already essentially too late. There's gonna be a lot of disruption because of it over the next year to 50 years. Hopefully we'll get a handle on it though. We're very clever. We got a lot of ways. We got a lot of tricks up our sleeves that we haven't even tried to use yet. So I think we will get a handle on it once we get going. The implant that the visitors left inside of you. In my year ago. Yeah, you once said that you use the implant for research. I know in your books you talk about, I can't even imagine this experience of seeing words almost being typed by behind your eyes. But yeah, I'm curious about the research. What kind of research do you use and how do you employ the implant? Well, there's two ways. The first way is sort of, I think, synchronicity. It's right here. It's in my ear. And if I think about something I need in terms of research, no matter how obscure it is, if it's findable, it'll show up in my life in one way or another, usually within 24 hours. And often quite immediately. The other way is that a little more complex that when I am working, I'm not writing right now, but when I am, a slit will open up in my eye and you can see words racing through it at right next speed. Now I've had this explained to me very carefully. And what it does is this. The mind has stored inside it in its unconscious areas a lot of information that it can't access directly. And what this object does is it finds that and brings it forward and puts it into an area of the mind that's closer to consciousness. And this is like having a muse who's reminding you as you go along of things that you've thought about in the past and so on and so forth. The interesting thing about the implant is it was put in my ear in 1989. And all of those years, I never knew a thing about how to use it until after Annie passed away. And then suddenly I began to be able to figure it out. And it started when I began to notice the slit in my eye and the words racing through it. And then I started to want to write a historical model. And I didn't understand at the time that perhaps from her side, Annie was encouraging me to do that in order to learn how to use the implant. And I started writing the novel, it's called In Hitler's House. And it's a pretty deep historical novel written from the viewpoint of a young man who knows Hitler. I mean, it's not real, it's all fiction. In the early 30s, journaling about it in the 1970s, now that he's an old man. And he's at first duped by, he's a German-American kid on a trip in Germany during, in the early 30s, which is a very common thing to do in those days. And he meets Hitler by accident and gets involved with him. And when he realizes how evil Hitler is, he becomes a spy in Hitler's house and works as a spy and also the friend of Hitler. But to write a novel like that, you have to be able to write the journal as if it was written by someone who actually lived then. It's a very major research challenge. And that was when I noticed the slit going through. And finally, it was going so well. It was astonishing. And every time I needed some kind of obscure piece of information about Hitler would pop up out of the most improbable places. And I asked, I finally knew, I knew that something had changed because this is, this slit, I mean, this was a really good thing that was going on. And I asked it one day, who are you? And the writing slowed down and it said very clearly came across, it's me and, and then it sped up again. And when it's, what it's doing is it's going into my deep mind and drawing information that I've basically stored there out and bringing it forward. That's the second thing it does. The first thing is the synchronicities. You have a research tool like that and you can go to town. Jesus' new vision is deeply researched and more than even then new world or afterlife revolution because I've gotten good at this and using this thing. And there's never been a book like Jesus about Jesus like that book. Jesus' new vision is absolutely a new, literally a new vision and it's all because of the implant that it's, that it's there. Incredible. It sounds like you've got such so much support for doing what you came here to do. Yeah, I've got a team on my side that's up. You talk about a five star team and boy, I've got a good team led by my girl. She's, she's over there and she's doing this boy. She's on it. She's on this. And your connections with Anne these days, what are those like? I didn't hear you. Can you say again? Your connections with Anne these days. Anne said, one of the first things Anne said once we had reestablished contact and I had actually been convinced it was real. She did it very cleverly using other people first so that I couldn't say that it was just my imagination. As she knew I would say if I got the chance, she said, I'm not Anne anymore, but I will always be Anne for you. Now, what does that mean? It means that obviously we do reincarnate. And if you think about it, the soul that's behind Debbie has done this before. So that soul is not Debbie. Debbie is the projection into the stream of time. And I'm not, I'm whittly. I'm a projection of this, another soul into the stream of time. Anne was a projection of a soul into the stream of time. But, and for all I know, she could be reincarnated now. In fact, I have reason to believe she is. The soul has basically created another body in the world. But that doesn't mean the soul is outside of time. Souls are like fishermen and the bait is the body and that they've dropped into the stream of time. And all of the, if everything coming past us in time is observed and experienced by the bait until finally big fisher comes along and eats the bait. And then we're dead. And the soul pulls the empty hook out of the water and eventually throws another body in and another life. It has another life and it builds experiences. And who knows, there might be souls that have more than one body going at the same time. Maybe a whole race of them. Right. You don't know. I mean, we don't know how it works, I'm just guessing kind of that it works something like that. Right. Well, in your, one of your books called A New World, you talk about having this experience where all of a sudden you're plunged into five synchronistic parallel lives all at once. And the thing is you're lucid during the experience that you're aware of all these simultaneous lives. Can you talk about that? What was that like? That was a little disorienting. I didn't expect that to happen. The first thing that happened was it was a very rainy December night in about 2007, as I recall. And there's a description of it on unknown country in my, in Whitley's journal. I think if you go to Whitley's journal the search engine and Google or search parallel lives in the Whitley's journal section, you'll find it. In any case, these lights showed up outside the apartment window. Just over, they couldn't have been more than a few hundred feet up. And you could see that there were just as stable and still as they could be. And the clouds were just rushing past. And so it was, and rain was pouring down. And they were there and we could see the lights. But if you moved your head a little bit, then you couldn't see them anymore. There was only a certain angle where we could see the lights and then they weren't there. And finally, we went back to sleep because we figured, well, it's the visitors. And by that time, it was the early 2000s, I mean, 2007 we were used to the visitors in our lives. And we didn't know why they were there. Then suddenly, I guess an hour or so later, I wake up and I'm aware of the fact that things are different. I think to myself, what is going on here? It's like I'm in another apartment. I get up and I try to go into the living room and everything's changed around. And I don't remember this part very well, except I do remember that there were like potted plants in the living room. And I have no, we have no potted plants. There was all kinds of stuff, weird stuff going on. And then I found myself in another reality, walking on a pier with my son and my wife had died in that reality. And there were, I don't remember all five of them in detail without having reviewed them this been more than 10 years. But there were a number of different realities. And the physics of that is pretty clear. I mean, we do, there are apparently many different worlds and many different lives, versions of our lives unfolding in those different worlds. So I guess, I mean, it was just a kind of a breakdown or somebody pulled off the blinders for a little while and I was living in a whole bunch of different lives at the same time and five's enough. Boy, I'm telling you, I don't want any more than that. It was terrible, terrible confusion, but it was also a wonderful experience. People always say, oh God, how could he live like this? And the answer is, if you want an adventure, this is definitely the life to be in. It's a good, Annie used to say, I always hoped I would have an interesting life. I had no idea what I was getting into when I met you. But all the strange stuff, it didn't really start. There was a lot of it in my childhood, but I had blocked that all. But then Annie came into my life and it started again, right away almost. We didn't realize it at the time, but as soon as we got together, it started. You've used shamanic drumming, I understand to connect to the visitors. Can you talk about the shamanic drumming? What kind of effect has it had for creating contact? Once I did that with a wonderful man who died very young, sadly, Peter Fro. He was the boyfriend of someone who was pretty deeply involved in this stuff called Dorna Ruffner. And they were up at our cabin with some other people. And Peter was really into shamanic drumming and was he good? He was very good. And we went out in the backyard and he was drumming and we were all dancing and it got really intense. And it was like, all of a sudden, I wasn't dancing, someone was dancing me. And we all felt like that we were really moving. And suddenly these meteors started coming across the lawn at just above eye level, leaving bright little things leaving smoke trails. And we're watching these things and I'm the only one who knows anything about astronomy. So they were all just assuming they were meteors and I was saying, no, they're not meteors. They don't go past it at eight feet trailing smoke. This is something very weird here. And this kept on until we stopped the drumming and then it stopped. And it was just sort of earth energies becoming very intense or maybe, I don't know what exactly, how exactly to explain it, but it was a wonderful experience. So interesting to me because they say that the shamans and the indigenous people have always been connected to those from other worlds, that this is part of their reality. And so it makes sense to me using some shaman tools, including drumming, that it could create that kind of effect, that kind of connection. Yeah. Well, I was at a private family ceremony, very intense one on the Pine Ridge Reservation with some of the coda. And you know, a UFO showed up in the middle of it and they sort of just didn't care. You know, all of us from the Anglo world, we're all looking up at it in an amazing, the natives, Americans, you know, it was just part of life. They just, you know, they weren't interested. And I asked one of them, do you see that? And I said, yeah, it's probably some FBI drone. And I said, well, you know, it can't be an FBI drone, because you know, the drones don't function like that. And he just didn't care. But you know, and that's because it's not because they're not curious, but because they're just used to it. Right. It's just part of life. Yes, yeah. In your book, the key, a true encounter, something that you learn from your wise visitor is in this quote, which is, sin is about the denial of the right to thrive. Hey, that's very powerful. Sin is about the denial of the right to thrive. And of all the lessons that you yourself learned from the visitors about humility, what are the latest lessons? What overall for you is the message regarding humility right now? The message right now regarding humility is don't forget it. Don't forget it. Be humble, be respectful of the other person always. And now as far as the journey that is implied by the statement that the master of the key made, that journey leads directly to Jesus and new vision because I discovered that this experience of the visitors is very reflective. If you're a bad person and you're not leaving an examined life and you're not really working toward the good, the experience can get very rough. It's very rough anyway, very often. I mean, because it's initiatory, they're trying to overturn your entire vision of reality and you can't do that without being pretty rough at times. That's why in shamanism, you speak of shamanism, shamanic initiation, real shamanic initiation is a serious business. It's like people can die during a real shamanic initiation. But at the same time, once you have passed through the land of the dead, you're a changed person. And we have shamanic initiations all the time in our world. You know what they are? They are when people die and are brought back from death by medicine. I make that point in afterlife revolution because every single time that happens and a person has a near death experience, that's a shamanic initiation. It happened to Anne and it changed their life completely. She no longer feared death at all because she had been there, she had been in that world. And the medical community and the scientific community to deny the existence of the soul are actually engaged in a mass initiation of the species without realizing it. They're turning all these people who have near NDE's and survive, they bring them back from the dead into shamans. That's really true. Every single person that I know who's had a near death experience that is accurate, they have lost the sense of fear of death and gained the ability to really appreciate and live a full life. And in addition, they almost to a person come back with brand new gifts. People who were, I know somebody who worked for the government and suddenly came back and was an artist. I know somebody was an engineer and he got dengue fever from mosquito, almost died. While I was brought back in another country and suddenly like, you know, is this incredible psychic and can see things and they come back with abilities they never had before when they cross over. Yeah, and became what you would think of as a hidden master. She became that. And I knew it and she knew it, but, you know, she had remarkable skills, a remarkable insight into other human beings. And after she finally left her body, I don't really want to say died because that's not exactly right. After she left her body for the last time, she became an extraordinary teacher. She always was a teacher. She was, she loved teaching. And she had a master's in teaching from a very fine teaching college called the Bank Street College of Education. And she loved to teach. And now she's still a teacher. In fact, a lot of people get in touch with her and they, you know, if she can get through to them, she'll teach them. But you don't teach by explaining, like all these people who have guides, I always wonder about that because that's not real teaching. Teaching is what Jesus did. You know, the gospel of Thomas is a very interesting gospel. It's, it was pushed out of the cannon because it's, it just doesn't fit. The canonical gospels teach as Jesus is an instructor. But the gospel of Thomas, Jesus, he will tell you, don't pray. Don't believe anything I say. Don't, don't fast. Don't ignore the dietary restrictions, all of that. In other words, what he's saying is think for yourself. Think for yourself. And that's why I'm very iffy about guides who are telling us what to think. Because Annie is the teacher now. She never tells you what to think. She gets you to think for yourself in very creative ways. Does that mean that she asks questions that compel you to start to follow your own path? She, she causes you to end up with questions you can't leave alone and also can't answer. That's what she does. And she's very, very good at it. I'm very lucky to have a teacher like that in my life. Yeah, remarkable. I know that you meditate twice a night and you've said that if you don't at 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. then the visitors are gonna come and they'll start doing things to wake you up. Yeah, that's right. That's still true. It's still true. How has this twice daily meditation changed your life? Completely. Completely. Yeah, I also now do it at one o'clock in the afternoon and they want me to do it right after waking up in the morning. But so far I haven't done that. And, but because there's one thing. Once I start at one of the sessions starts, I never will stop, be able to stop it again in my life but they'll make me do it. And I love that actually. Because it seems, there's so much care being taken here for this little guy. And I think it's because they figured that if he's a test case, if we can get him on the road, we know for sure that anyone can do it. So that's kind of what I think there. Anyway, yeah, 11 and three. Now, they don't do much at 11 o'clock. I always do that one anyway. The hard one is the 3 a.m. or that's hard. Because I don't have an alarm system going off on purpose. I want it to be an organic relational thing. And they do too, I'm sure. And I've been pretty good lately but I went through a period of, they really scared the hell out of me a few, about a month ago and I quit for, I decided, I said one night, I said, I'm quitting. I'm not gonna do the 3 a.m. or any more because you scared me so bad. And I, discovered that there was another technique available. They would not let me sleep at all. I just didn't get to sleep that night. I couldn't sleep. And I don't know if they were doing it or it was me not wanting to give up the meditation or exactly what it was, our combination. But I started again the next night. And normally, I don't know if it's different people or what on the other side, because normally if I don't wake up, someone will bounce me on the shoulder or blow on me or they make a school bell ringing in the living room and stuff. There's all kinds of things but they're basically fairly gentle. Then every once in a while, there are things that there's someone who comes along here who's not gentle and really scares the hell out of me. I don't like that very much, but I'm gonna live with it because this is all a learning experience. And I understand that that is not necessarily bad because when that happens, I have the chance to step back from it and take an objective look at it and to say that I don't have to be identified with my own fears. I don't have to fear this. I don't actually have to fear anything. What I need to do is to step back from my life and be behind my life, looking at my life from the outside. And those give me a chance to do that. And that's very valuable to me. So I've gone from being so angry about it that I wouldn't meditate to thinking that, while I'm certainly not asking for it guys, if it does come again like that, I'm going to understand why it was done. And you're still doing the sensing exercise. What is the sensing exercise? Well, the sensing exercise is something I learned two ways. I learned it in the Griggy Foundation. And if you read Madame John DeSaltzman's book, The Reality of Being, you'll see it described very carefully and very well a number of times in that book. What it does is you take your attention basically and you place it on your body, on the sensation of your body. Now, Annie showed me after she passed away that when we do this, we can actually be seen in the other level of reality because it changes our visibility and it makes our nervous system glow for them as soon as the attention is placed on it. And then they can come to you and you can attract teachers if you're patient. It took me 15 years for the visitors to show up after I started doing it in 69 and they showed up in December of 85. And they never left me again since then. But, so it takes patience. It's like they're not gonna necessarily, we live in this consumer society and we expect immediate results. And so, I do the sensing exercise at three o'clock in the morning one time and nothing happens, then screw them. I'm not interested in the visitors anymore. They don't care about me. Try 15 years, then you may see something in any case. That's why I do it. The Garjeev method is about separating the attention from letting the thoughts flow and at the same time broadening the attention to include the body. And this is called in the Garjeev work, the double arrow of attention. And it evolves from the sensing exercise which is just the foundation of it into a much more complex and much richer experience of being, having a larger attention and a more objective attention in life. From the visitor standpoint, it's a way of announcing your presence and enabling them to find you. So in the Garjeev work, we do, just, you know, you go to your right foot, you take your attention to your right foot, your leg, et cetera. And you just go through your body and then when you've sort of amplified your awareness of the sensation of your body, then you sit in this meditative state. In the one that the visitors prefer, you do it, you know, you go first to your toes, the ball of your foot, the arch, the heel, and it's much more detailed because that means that it's giving them more time to see your presence and to detect where you are. I think, I think from their standpoint, this does not, this is not, this looks like a sort of a rushing highway full of, you know, almost impossible to make anything out because they're looking at time from the outside, looking in and we're inside the stream of time and that river runs fast. That's fascinating. I love that. So we get a glow and that's a beautiful way if we will continue that practice for the visitors to also hopefully find us too. Well, they find us, yeah, exactly. And they'll find you sooner or later, maybe sooner rather than later because you're dead will too, any will. And if you're, if you attract her attention, you'll know it right away. She's not shy about it and she's, I'll give you an example of what I mean. There's a psychic, a very powerful psychic who she's private about herself and she sees occasionally she'll see people, not ghosts, but she sees them sort of in a ghostly way outside of herself, another is not in her head. And she kept seeing this woman and she drew a picture over the woman and she sent it to Jeff Kreikl, my co-author in Supernatural who's also very close to her, they're friends. Not because of me, she didn't recognize the person and she said, have you ever seen this person? Do you know who this is? And Jeff didn't know, he didn't recognize it. And then he sent it on to Diana Posocco, the author of American Cosmic, who's also a friend of our little community. And Diana immediately said, Jeff, that's Anne Streeter. And they sent it to me and it's Anne. It's a perfectly beautiful picture drawing of Anne and so I realized that Anne had gone to her for the purpose of becoming connected with her and also for everyone else, for me and everyone else to know that this was real. And her avatar is a white moth and the reason is this, we're gonna go a little over, is that okay? Yes, I'm here. We'll finish, because I've got to absolutely finish in 10 minutes, okay? Here's the story of the white moth. In January, Annie died on August the 11th, 2015. In January of that year, she started trying to get me to memorize a poem called The Song of Wandering Angus by W.B. Yates. And I wondered at that time, why didn't she want me to memorize this poem so bad? And she cried when I couldn't do it. So it was real serious and I started working on that. And after she died, I memorized the poem because I had not forgotten that. And then I was at a UFO conference in the Ozark Mountain UFO Conference. My surveillance camera started barking and saying, here in the house, it's full of surveillance cameras, as you may imagine. I always hope against hope they'll make a mistake. They never do, but you never know. Anyway, it started sending me texts saying that their movement is protecting movement. So looking there's this big white moth flying back and forth in front of the camera. I do not make the connection. But someone at the conference looked at it and said, quickly, I'm a guy, he's a very psychic guy, and he says, I have a feeling that that's not an ordinary moth. I don't know what else to tell you. So I come home and it's being moth, and I'm looking for a dead moth in my house because I'm concerned. I don't want to open my closet and find dust instead of clothes at some point or holds in them. No moth. So then it goes on and I'm at a conference with Diana Posoka at her university and I'm giving a speech and I'm talking about Anne and suddenly the thing beeps and there's the white moth again. And now I make the connection because I'm dumb, but I'm not that dumb. So I make the connection. Then the next time it's December, it's Christmas evening, the evening Christmas after Christmas night and I'm talking to my son about the white moth and saying, I think it's Anne. And the camera that a text comes through and we look and it's the white moth again. And then I remembered something. Her favorite short story of mine is called the white moths. And it's about an old woman who dies and is in the process of discovering that she's dead. And I thought, the white moths, the white moth, the poem, and here's the poem. I went out to the hazel wood because a fire was in my head and cut and peeled a hazel wand and hooked a berry to a thread. When white moths were on the wing and the moth like stars were flickering out, I dropped the berry in a stream and caught a little silver trout. When I laid it on the floor and went to blow the fire aflame, something rustled on the floor and someone called me by my name. It had become a glimmering girl with apple blossom in her hair who called me by my name and faded through the brightening air. Though I am old with wandering in hollow lands and hilly lands, I will find where she has gone and kiss her lips and take her hands and walk in long dappled grass and pluck till time and times are done the silver apples of the moon, the golden apples of the sun. That's Annie's message. And I think I gotta go. That was so beautiful. That was, I can't imagine a more incredible ending. Thank you so much for sharing all of that, for being you Whitley. Every time I have you on this show, it is like having the most incredible meal in the world. And so I just honor and treasure you. And I'm so grateful that you're here doing what you do. Two last words from Anne. Love easily. Love easily. I shall, I shall take that to heart. Thank you. Well, folks, what, what, what an amazing show we've had today. Again, if you would like to find out more about Whitley Strieber, go to unknowncountry.com. And I end today's show with this quote from Robin Sharma. Don't live the same year 75 times and call it a life. Subscribe to Dare to Dream podcast so you can hear this number one transformation conversation. And my guest next week is Anthony Teresa, a master psychic visionary and gifted clairvoyant who's going to help listeners with any of their life's challenges. He has led an incredible life. So I can't wait to get to connect with him. And if you love listening to this conversation audio wise, join us so you can actually see us on YouTube. Go to youtube.com slash Debbie Daschinger. I do read everything that you write and I am so grateful for all of you. 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