 This is Carol Monly on Community Matters with my special guest Dr. Colette Brown, who holds a chair professorship at the School of Social Work and is also the chair of the Gerontology Specialization. So, welcome, Colette. Oh, thank you, Carol. Well, today we're talking about a really important study that was just published, and Dr. Brown was the co-author from Hawaii, and it is about the economic security of older women and men in Hawaii. And we often lump older women and men together, but I think your study really identifies the more important details that many of us didn't know. Well, we hope so. You know, over the past decades, poverty rates for older adults in this country have actually been declining, and that's really good news. But that's really, as you just said, when we homogenize, when we group older people together, what we also know is that older women are continually and pervasively more poor than older men throughout their lives and culminates in later life. Not only is it women in general, we don't want to homogenize older women themselves, but when we break it down by ethnicity, race and ethnicity, we also see even more differences with regards to financial security and financial insecurity. I see. So now, is these results comparable to what's been happening on the mainland? Because I know this study was as a result of a mainland study. What we did was, in the School of Social Work where I work, we partnered with the Institute for Women's Policy Research, which is a really very wonderful research group out of D.C. that look at gender issues, primarily economic issues, but health issues and other issues as well, and not only older women, but women throughout their life. So we partnered with them for the analysis and then came up with a recommendation specific to Hawaii. I see. And so how long did the study take from Hawaii? It took us about a year to put the whole thing together. And where's the data coming from? The data looks at microdata from the U.S. census. So the 19... From 2010 to 2014, and we looked again those years so that we could get a large sample size because we really did want to look at race and ethnicity in addition to gender. Okay, great. So we're going to get right into some of those results, and I know we have some... Several slides. So we're going to go through a few of them, and even though our viewers cannot see... I mean, our viewers can see them, but our listeners cannot. We're going to talk about the results, and it's very interesting. So what is our first slide, Rich? Here we go. So the cover... This is a particular characteristics of older women and men in Hawaii. And so what did you find out about? We wanted to look at, again, the different ethnic groups. So we looked at Japanese, Caucasian, Filipino, Native Hawaiian, Chinese, other Asian, for example, Korean, Asian, Indian, those with two or more races, and also Hispanic, and then the total. And if you look at women and men, what you see is the same thing that we see on the mainland, and that is women are more poor than older men, and that's in every racial and ethnic group. So this is very different from the mainland because, of course, the ethnicities in Hawaii are so much more diverse than you find in the mainland. That's right. So you do see differences even here. So for example, what you do see is you see other Asian really are more poor, and those with the greater personal, median personal income are looking at Japanese American older women, but still much less than men. I see, okay. And how about our next slide? This just looks at marital status, and the reason we wanted to look at that is there are a number of reasons why women are poor, and they're really, they're quite complex and interrelated, but one of them is marital status. And we know that because you have one income rather than two, you're more apt to be poor when you're older. And we also know that here in Hawaii about 57, 58% of older women are what we call single, and that's widowed, that is never married, and that's divorced. So about 58%. So the idea that you will live alone when you are older as a woman is much greater than if you were a man. So not only would you live alone if you're a woman, more likely, but you're much more likely to be poor. You're more likely to be poor, and again for a number of reasons, right, that your income throughout your life is less than the man. So that's one reason. Another reason is women still are very often in segregated employment. That are primarily women holding them as opposed to the jobs of primarily men. There are industries that are still much more male oriented, for example, just look at the tech industry, right, as one example. Then we really also haven't looked at balancing work at home. We talk about this a lot, and I'm glad that there are political discussions more, but we still haven't done anything like other countries that allow people to balance work with their families. So we don't have childcare policies really. We don't have affordable childcare. We don't have a pension caregiving credits. We don't have paid family leave. There are a number of things that we could do that would make things so much better for not just working women, but working men as well. So then the fact that there are separate maybe tracks of career is one thing, but that's not in it of itself. The reason for the poverty for women is because the salaries, right, are different. Well, there's, exactly. There's participation rates, right, and there's poverty rates. Participation rates. Participation rates, so for, not for all women, if you look at racial, ethnic, minority women, very often their work trajectory is very much like the white males. They work throughout their life. If you look at African-American older women, for example, if you look at their work history, they've worked their entire life, but they are the poorest of the poor because of what you just said, wages. And very often- And the industries that they may be working in- That's right. They're not going to be as well paid. That's right. If you're looking at home care workers, you know, I think the other issue here is that we really don't value care work, do we? So whether it's care that you're paying for or care that you're providing in your own home, we don't value it. How many women today are actually quitting their jobs as middle-aged women to take care of an older parent? And what happens to those women? What happens to their pensions, to their social security? It goes down because of that. They're doing a wonderful thing, but they're going to be penalized economically for it. So in that case, the family may end up benefiting the whole family because grandma is being cared for. But individually, assuming that the father dies, the mother, the surviving in later years will have less resources. That's right. That's right. Which is really a sad statement, I think, again, about what we value in our country. Older countries do things quite differently as you probably know. Let's look at our next slide. It just looks at the median annual personal income for older women and men in Hawaii. And again, the gray is male and the green is female. And again, what you can see just consistently is that men do work more, earn more than women. And you do see some racial differences here. Again, you're looking at Japanese older women and Caucasian older women and Chinese older women really making a higher median income. What this doesn't take into account, of course, are how many jobs one has to get that income. So it's a broad number. So when you see how many jobs to get that income, are you saying that men's careers are usually on a different trajectory they may work in, one or two jobs longer as opposed to women's? Right. What we see is that men's work is much more rarely interrupted than a woman's. And in some ways, it makes a little bit of sense. If you're looking at a spouse that makes twice what you make, perhaps it makes more economic sense that you're the one who stays home and takes care of a sick child, a disabled brother or sister, an older mother or father. But it still impacts your income, your own income when you retire. Right. And then because women live longer, it's going to impact them, particularly if they survive their spouse. Absolutely. And health care is a big ticket item when we get older, right? So actually, these results aren't too surprising, are they? They're not surprising. They really verified and validated what we know on the continental US. It did bring us some more information about race, ethnicity, and again, the importance of the kind of income women get and why we have to protect things like social security so much. All right. I think we have another slide. The data is really interesting. Let's see. Our next slide is the... This just looks at the official federal poverty thresholds and index in Hawaii. And really just trying to show you, again, looking at male and female, this is specific to something called the elder index. And this is actually very, very interesting. This was developed by the University of Massachusetts in the National Council on Aging. And they looked at the regular poverty threshold. And they said that's really too conservative because it doesn't look at housing. And it doesn't look at health care costs. So when you do that, what you find is that, especially people in Hawaii, we need a much greater income. And our poverty threshold is actually quite higher because of primarily our very, very high housing costs. So you say our poverty threshold is higher. Exactly. So where the poverty threshold may say 20,000 for a couple, it may be looking at the elder index taken into consideration. Housing, if you make less than 40 or 50, you might be actually poorer. And I think we all know examples. That's quite true. Right. OK. So compared to other states, how do we compare to other states? Our poverty rate is actually not as bad as some other states. And again, we think we need to go back and look at this more closely. But we think it's primarily because so many women are in the workforce here in Hawaii because, again, the cost of living in our wonderful state and also the fact that so many people have two or three jobs to make that income that they need. Right. And of course, in Hawaii, we've had this tradition of women working outside the home much longer than some of the other states. That's right. That's absolutely very true. Right. So we're talking about career. So it sounds like poverty then really has a long-term growth period in the life of a person. It starts out as soon as you start your career. You know, it does. And again, there's so much. I'm an educator, so I believe so much that we need to educate young men and young women about the right kinds of careers in terms of income, in terms of financial security, that they don't end up in those jobs that pay them so little. And on the other hand, we all know that there are some jobs that do pay little, and that then speaks to what is the role then of policy. Is it OK that we have poor older people in our society? It's a question we have to ask ourselves. Is it OK? And? I would say no. I'm a social worker, so I would say no. I work with people who have been good citizens their whole life. They've worked hard. They've raised their families. They haven't been in any kind of trouble. They've contributed to their community. And they end up poor because they can't afford their health care costs, their long-term care costs. Do I think that's OK? No, I don't think that's OK. And how does that affect our community by having older women who are in much more need than men? One of the reasons we did this study is because we want people to become more aware of this issue. No one is proud of being poor, so people hide it a lot. So people usually don't go around and say, oh, I'm poor. I can't join you for lunch because I don't have the money to pay for lunch. So we want people to understand these issues, to understand, as you just said, it's a long-term process, right? And that we can't close our eyes to it anymore. We really have to look at what policies can specifically help. Younger women and older women. Younger women are just tomorrow's older women. Well, on that note, we're going to take a break. And after the break, we'll talk a little bit more about what we can do to help and what needs to be done to change. So I'm with my guest, Dr. Colette Brown from the UH School of Social Work, talking about a very important subject. The economic security of older women and men in Hawaii will be right back. You're watching Think Tech Hawaii, which streams live on thinktechhoai.com, uploads to YouTube, and broadcasts on cable OC16 and O'Lello 54. Great content for Hawaii from Think Tech. Sounds like scuba divers are the poor man's astronaut. At DiveHeart, we believe that to be true. We say, forget the moon. DiveHeart can help children, adults, and veterans of all abilities escape gravity right here on Earth. Search DiveHeart.org and imagine the possibilities in your life. Aloha. My name is Raya Salter. And I'm the host of Power Up Hawaii, which you can see live from 1 to 1.30 every Tuesday at thinktechhawaii.com, and then later on YouTube. I am an energy attorney, clean energy advocate, and community outreach specialist. And on Power Up Hawaii, we come together to talk about how can Hawaii walk towards a clean, renewable, and just energy future. To do that, we talk to stakeholders all over the spectrum, from clean energy technology folks to community groups to politicians to regulators to the utility. So please join us Tuesdays at 1 o'clock for Power Up Hawaii. Welcome back. This is Carol Monly on Community Matters with my guest, Dr. Colette Brown, to talk about a very important study that just came out on the economic security of older women and men in Hawaii. So we were talking about policy, but before we get to policy, I'd like to cover three more slides that the survey brought to everybody's attention. So let's get to the next slide, Rich. And that says poverty rate for older women and men in Hawaii. So what is the poverty rate? Again, so what you can see, and this is, again, this looks at the poverty rate, which is the official poverty rate. So it's not the more conservative poverty rate, not the elder index that we just talked about before the break. And here, again, though, you're looking at racial differences. You're looking at other Asian populations having almost a 20% poverty rate for women, so one out of every four or five women. But in every category? In every category, women are more poor than men. And have a higher poverty rate. So again, this is just very consistent with our data from the mainland as well. Right. So in every category, which is every ethnic group, Asian, Chinese, Hispanic, other native Hawaiians, white, Japanese, Filipino. That's right. Women far, well. Have more poverty. Higher poverty. Higher poverty rates. That's right. OK. And our next slide. And this one is entitled retirement income. Retirement income sources, right. And this looks at the major retirement, the ways that we get our money when we retire. So we hopefully have Social Security, which is the primary income for men and women as we get older. Let's go through one at a time, because those are very important. So Social Security. So Social Security. So what you see, if you look across, and I'm looking here at the women, you're looking at the lowest rate is 79%. So a very high percentage of older women do receive Social Security. So that's good. Those who don't usually are immigrant populations who have not earned enough quarter benefits to be eligible. And if you look at the median income, the lowest is about almost 11,000 and the highest is nearly 13,000. So it's an average of 12,000. So 12,000 a year. The older women. And how do we define older women? What age? That's a great question. We should have said that. We started that. 65 and over. Some people do look at 60, but we were looking at 65 and over primarily because we have a good longevity here in this state. So age 65 and over women average about 12,000 across all of us. Well, this is actually the median, not the median. We'll talk about the mean, the average, and another slide. So this is the median. If you look at the pensions, you look at a smaller number. So you're looking at a low from what, 24,000 actually with Filipino to a high of 42% who actually get pensions. So among those who do, they get about 12,000, but only about 35% actually get a private pension. So that's what's really important to notice in that slide. And so other sources of income besides social security? Some people have earnings. Again, a small number. So those are women who are continuing to work after age 65. Exactly, like me. And then you have your assets. If you have real estate, if you have other kinds of assets, again, a much smaller number for women than men. So meaning women have fewer assets than men. And the assets themselves are valued much less. So if they own a home or an apartment, typically, it would be valued less than, worth less than, older men. The only source of income that is similar between men and women is actually supplemental security income, which is a means-tested income source from the federal government that supplements your income when you're poor. So not all women will get that, even though they qualify for social security. In fact, that's something we really have to look at policy-wise, because we have a lower percentage of women actually receiving that compared to a poverty rate. So there's a number that are eligible but aren't receiving. OK, so in addition to those assets, I guess we're not including something like whether they're getting family support. That's right. Yeah, we're not including that. Hard to measure. That's right, that's right. OK, I think we have another slide. Let's get to our next slide. Now this one's interesting, because this looks, again, at the mean, the average income. So you're looking at women's average income of about 26,000 closer to 27, and you're looking compared to men's average, which is about 43. That's a big difference. It's a very big difference. And think about that when you're older. Could you live on $26,000 a year? And again, this is an average. The challenge with looking at averages is it doesn't tell you who's on the bottom. Right, and who is on the bottom? You're looking primarily at, on the mainland, it's primarily African-American women, immigrant women. Here in Hawaii, it looks that I would suggest it's immigrant women as well, and also Filipino women are lower income. Interesting, and men, what are the highest incomes? Which ethnic groups have the highest incomes? Whites, Chinese, and Japanese. Whites, Chinese, and that's true for both men and women. Yes, OK. Yes, it is. Is there a reason why, do you think? Speculation on why certain ethnic groups have lower incomes? You know, I think there's, again, there's a complex issue. So you're looking at things like, certainly, socioeconomic status, education, types of jobs. You're looking at the type of education they get. You look at opportunities that they have or don't have. You're looking at things like discrimination. You're looking at immigration histories. There are a lot of variables that really result in what we're seeing. Yeah, very interesting. I think one last slide on some of the data that was uncovered. Let's see. No, I guess we don't have another slide. That was it. Well, there's so many. So let's talk a little bit then about now what. We know that we have this information. What can, what are you looking at doing in terms of developing policy changes, or how can we help older women in Hawaii? Well, we look at younger women and we look at older women. So if you look at younger women, there are a number of things that I think are important to do. And one is really looking at unequal pay. We still don't have equal pay between men and women. And I would like to think that we will not let that go because you see what happens when there's unequal pay. We still have occupational segregation. There's still jobs. There's still very much more mail. There's something the law, for example, has made, medicine has made some very important changes. But other fields are still, we're not seeing that. So is it done though on an individual industry basis then, or are you as an organization or as a matter of policy, are nationwide and locally? Are we looking at some kind of legislation? I would like to think that we could do what other countries do, like whether it's France or Iceland or Germany or so many others, where gender equality is in their constitution. It's just something that they insist because we know now the effects when we don't have it. It's very clear women are more poor than men throughout their life and also in later years. So that's one thing I think we need to do. I think we have to really connect to that as the issue of segregated employment. I mean, as educators, as family members, as businesses, what are businesses doing? I mentioned this in another talk recently, but Michelle Obama gave a talk to the tech leaders a number of this past year, just a few months ago. And they're notorious, of course, for having a culture where it's primarily male. Women leave that field twice as often as men do. So there's something there that's not right. You really challenge them and say you want women in the workforce. If you do, make room. What are you doing here to actually allow and encourage and recruit women and retain them? So that's something that we really have to look at as well. But how do you explain then that there is often, as you said, we talked about earlier about how women making the choice to whether it's to stay home to care for newborns or their parents and then getting out of the workforce. And I know we talked about do we pay for that kind of leave or the care? That's right. Well, and I think very often, that's you use the great word choice because I think very often it's not a choice. You don't really have a choice. Mom needs care, child needs care, disabled elder needs care. There is no choice. There's not enough care out there. And that's something to, when we look at helping older women, it also helps younger women. We need long-term care services and supports, right? And we don't really have that today. So that's something that's really, I think, very, very critical that we support long-term care. That will help older women, but younger women. The New York Times had an article a while ago, maybe two weeks ago, that looked at the proposed cuts to Medicaid as an example. And they said, who's going to be hurt by this? It's the daughters and daughters-in-law because they're the ones who provide the care because 75% of those who receive Medicaid are the disabled and older adults who need long-term care. So you take that funding away. Who's going to feel it? Not just the older adult, but their caregiver who's primarily a woman. Right. And here in Hawaii, I know this past legislative session. We've had this Kapuna care bill. So tell us how that might help. Kapuna care is a wonderful program that is that the legislature has funded. It's operated to the executive office on aging and they work with many community agencies to provide home-based care. So that will make an enormous difference. The more that there are supports out there that will really encourage people to not have to make that choice, right? That they will be able to stay in the workforce because there will be supports that will still provide the care to mom or to dad or to brother or sister or to a child. So specifically, how does that care work? So it provides funding or some kind of credit? It would provide funding. So that's one way. There are other ways that can be done. We hope that we can actually work with our legislators on this. So for example, many countries actually give the primary caregiver pension credit for each child they have. So for example, if you have three children, you would be credited six years in their own social security system. So that's a wonderful way to acknowledge what we all know, that children are wonderful but they're expensive. It costs money to raise children. The more money you are using to raise children, the less you have to put into your retirement plan. I see. And yet here we are facing an administration that's looking at things like cutting long-term social security, Medicare, Medicaid, things like that. It's such a wonderful thing that we're all living longer. We all know that's wonderful but we also know that healthcare is a big ticket item. We know that even if we don't want to become disabled, we might and it's very, very costly. We have very few opportunities right now. People have to pay for such care. So the idea that Medicare or Medicaid would be cut will be not only problematic for older adults but for their families as well. Yes, indeed. Well, we're about ready to wrap up Colette. So what I'd like you to do is to look into camera 4 and give us some closing thoughts and maybe some ideas of how we can help in what you all plan to do and what we can see for the future. Okay, great. I think there's always something that we can do individually to stop poverty. We can learn more about finances, financial literacy. So there's of course there are things we can do individually. But society and policy has a huge role as well because we want society where older people, all older people have the right for a just and a good old age. And right now that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing too many women and too many racial, ethnic minority women really suffering from poverty. So yes, by all means learn about finances but also support issues like long-term care, support programs like KupunaCare, support the education of young girls so they can reach their potential in getting the kinds of jobs that will maybe prevent or stop this cycle that we're seeing today. And if we wanna find out more about the study, how can we do that? Yes, you can go to the School of Social Work website. There is a link to that, to the study. They can get the entire study from that link. Okay, the University of Hawaii School of Social Work. That's right. Okay, okay. Well on that note, thank you so much Colette for taking us through this very important study. Oh, thank you Carol. Okay, well my guest today has been Dr. Colette Brown who was a chair professor at the University of Hawaii School of Social Work. And she's the co-author of the current, this recent study, Economic Security of Older Women and Men in Hawaii. So thank you for joining us. This has been Karamon Lee, Community Matters at Think Tech, Hawaii, Aloha.