 Are you being recorded? We're on? Yes. Okay. We will call this meeting to order. This is the ward six NPA. We are being joined by the ward five NPA. We're having a special meeting tonight. To solicit public input on. On policing in Burlington. And we are going to. Have some introductory comments by the. And then open the floor to. Input from all of you. We've got some prompts that we'll put out there so that, you know, the kinds of things that the city council is looking for on this. Before we do that, I'd like the steering committee members from here today to introduce themselves. I am Dale Azaria. I'm on the ward six steering committee. And with me here are Nelson martel ward six. Nancy Harkins, ward six. I need to repel ward six. I'm sorry. We're all introducing. But I was confused. That's it. I'm sorry. Ward five. Ward five. And. And with that, I'd like to open up the floor for any announcements. Yeah. All right. Okay. Well, hello, everybody. I'm Jesse Warren. And I'm going to start with a piece of number of you here, but I live in ward five. And I just came today to talk about a project that the nonprofit that I started is working on. I started an organization called democracy creative. And our focus is on. Innovative forms of democratic decision making. And in fact, the NPA is the perfect example of the kind of thing we're talking about. Because it's something that not a lot of cities do, but a lot of cities do. And it's something that we're talking about. And it's something that we put in getting people involved. So we are working on a thing called a citizen's assembly. Which is the name that has been. Coined for this, this model that has been being used. Almost a thousand times so far across the world. And what it is, is basically you convene a group of people probably about the size of this room in terms of the number of people. And it's something that we're talking about. And it's something that we're talking about. And it's something that we're trying to work on a problem in the city. So it could be. Any issue. It could be a zoning issue or it could be like a higher level. It should be like a memorial auditorium. It could be policing. Like we're going to be talking about today and the public safety can be anything. And you asked them to learn about that issue over the course of a few months. They. Get a chance to deliberate. You know, repeatedly. So it's not just a quick, like. You know, you can do a lot of things. You can work through it. And then they offer policy recommendations to. The city council or it could be the state legislature or the federal government. And so the key thing about that group, though, is that it's chosen by what's called a democratic lottery. So you avoid any political. Things that would happen when you have elections. So the group of people is just chosen by lottery. They get to learn. And that lets them really just be focused on how to make a good decision and making a good decision. And so that's what we're going to do. Let everyone know about an event we're doing on May 31st. In. Contois auditorium. It's a citizens assembly. Public information session. We're going to have music. We're going to have apple pie. We're going to have two speakers. One of them we're still trying to determine from kind of the global citizens assembly community. But the other one is actually the person who. Originally created the MPAs, which was Terry. He and back in the 80s. You know, pretty much as far as I understand, made the MPAs with a couple others. And he's since become a globally known theorist on citizens assemblies and it kind of marks his, his, the way he's continued to think about these things. So May 31st. And I'm going to pass out some of these flyers. They're just little handouts so you can remember, but. No answer is there at 6 38 38 P.M. in contois auditorium citizens assembly, public information sessions and also for anyone online and all of you democracy creative comm. Is where you can learn more. There's a little video we made about citizens assemblies. Democracy creative. Thank you. Thank you. announcement. Thank you. I had hope to be there in person, but I had an unexpected guest. And so it's my daughter. And so we're having a lovely time together. I hear a tremendous kind of feedback. Are you all hearing me okay? It's okay. Perfect. So thank you for giving me a few minutes to talk about our new conflict assistance program, PAP, we call it, at the Burlington Community Justice Center. We offer mediation, formal mediation, restorative dialogue, just talking with someone who will listen, conflict coaching, and some educational pieces around dealing with conflict and your relationship with conflict in your own lives. I am the CAP coordinator and my name is Barbara Shaw Dorsal. So parking, noise disturbances, trash, animal problems, just maybe not getting off in the right place with one of your neighbors. Those are all things that we find go on in our community. And there are things that can impact your quality of life. They represent a breakdown in relationships, a tear in the fabric of community, as we call them in restorative practices. And you think to yourself, oh, this is kind of a small thing. I really don't know if I want to get involved with it. And will I make things worse? Well, these small things can become assumptions that work on you. A friction point that keeps you from feeling comfortable with your neighbor. So the conflict assistance program at the Burlington Community Justice Center can provide a safe and brave space to have conversation with your neighbor so that this situation doesn't escalate. A space that will allow you to get unstuck, so to speak, and go forward with some problem solving. A confidential space with an impartial facilitator. A space that holds the promise of making the neighborhood and community better. So what do I mean by make the neighborhood better, the community better? I think that would be different for each and every one of us. So how about knowing that you are there for others who are around you and they are there for you? These are the sorts of relationship understandings that help bring people closer together to develop community. And that's what we're all about at the Burlington Community Justice Center. Happy neighborhoods. Happy residents. This is our first self-referral program at the Burlington Community Justice Center. And what that means is that anyone can reach out to us and to me in particular. Mediation services, facilitation of different difficult conversations, coaching, just talking. We have an amazing website. It's called BurlingtonCJC.org. And you can get more information about signing up or just getting in touch with me. I really would like to hear from you and thank you again for your time. Thank you Barbara and enjoy the time with your daughter. Thank you so much. Glad you could join us. Yes, me too. I'll join in person sometime. Excellent. And speaking of joining us and before we turn to the heart of the meeting, well actually let me give one more call for any public announcements. Okay. One other thing that I'd like to do before we turn to the heart of the meeting is to thank the People's Kitchen and Fareed for bringing us some great food. For those of you who are joining us online, you've missed out on a great dinner. And it's just all the more reason, Barbara, for you and others to join us in person anytime you can. We're here every Thursday on the first Thursday when we're here. The first Thursday of every month, usually starting at six o'clock. With that, we're going to turn to our main order of business for this evening, which is to solicit public input on our system of policing. The way this is going to work is we're going to start with some introductory comments about the existing framework in which our police department operates from assistant city attorney. And then we will offer some prompts for those of you who would like to offer any public input. We will let you know the things that our city counselors in particular are looking for your thoughts on. And we'll take it from there. So, Jared, can I turn it over to you for some introductory remarks and setting the stage for us? Yeah. Thank you. Good evening, everyone. My name is Jared Pellerin. I remember here. Everyone can hear me. Good evening, everyone. And thank you for having me again. My name is Jared Pellerin. I'm an assistant city attorney with the city of Burlington. And I am excited to be here at the Ward 6 and Ward 5 NPA meeting this evening. And what I've been asked to come prepared to talk about tonight is a little bit about how police discipline currently works in the city of Burlington. So I'm going to try to just give a broad overview of how our city charter, along with Vermont state law, as well as the contract that we have with the Burlington Police Officers Association intersect with one another and how police discipline is handled. I see acting chief mirad is in the room. So he's the true expert here. And we work together and we have members of the BPOA as well. But just a broad overview, I'm not going to get into like the real heavy weeds of it all. But hopefully it'll give you guys a better understanding for those of you that aren't familiar with our process, how it all plays out. So the city understands that effective disciplinary system is one that is fair, rational, timely, and consistent, and it reflects values of the department as well as the community. It protects the rights of all of our citizens. It promotes respect and trust. We want it to result in public accountability, individual responsibility on the part of our officers, and it maintains the highest level of professionalism. The city shall not discipline or dismiss an employee without just cause. So under Dylan's rule in Vermont and the city of Burlington operates under its city charter, Article 65, Section 190 of the Burlington City Charter vests disciplinary authority for members of the police department within the position of the chief of police. So when a complaint is received by the Burlington Police Department about an employee's conduct, the chief of police shall be caused for that complaint to be investigated as soon as practicable. Or whenever it shall appear to the chief that any member of the said force has become incompetent, inefficient, or incapable for any cause or has been negligent or derelict in their duties, or is guilty of any misconduct in his or her private life or official life. After having a hearing, the chief may order such things as a reduction in rank, suspend a member without pay or dismiss the member. That's direct language from the charter. The police discipline process can be triggered for a variety of reasons. One most common to people is citizen complaints. So such complaints can be made online at the police department itself through a police commission member at various locations across the city. We also have complaint forms that are available to the public, places like the high school, the Burlington Electric Department, the Community Justice Center, the Miller Center, of course, at City Hall, the library, etc. So when a complaint is either lodged from the public or a fellow employee at the Burlington Police Department, it may come from internal observations or review by supervisors. It is referred to the Burlington Police Department Office of Quality Control, which is a subsection of the police department itself. At that point, the chief and deputy chiefs will assign it. The conduct gets a review and determines the seriousness of such allegation. So the city agrees with the tenets of progressive discipline and corrective discipline. So factors that will be considered when looking at discipline is the administration will choose does such complaints or something rise to the level where there might need to be further coaching, training, mentoring of an officer or a BPD employee, performance counseling, and they will look at such things as an employee's intent or motivation behind the action that's being reviewed, the degree of harm caused, also an employee's level of experience and their training and background, as well as past record of performance. So the department also looks at these infractions as they may be on a continuum. We have lower, what we consider lower level infractions, mid level and high level. And this is all something that has been negotiated with the Burlington Police Officers Association. It's part of our contract. And so lower level infractions are such things as infractions of policy and procedure, and they typically result in coaching or counseling prior to discipline being involved. They typically don't trigger an internal investigation or administrative review, but they conclude such things as being tardy, misuse of sick time or late paperwork that doesn't adversely impact any type of case that's currently being investigated. It could involve improper management of issued equipment and being discourteous or sometimes also like cruiser violations if you're speeding through town and you don't have a valid reason to be heading to a call or something of that nature that might be considered a lower level. Mid-level infractions are generally handled beginning with a letter, they could be handled with a letter of reprimand or admonishment progressing to more substantial discipline. And such things as mid-level would be carelessness of the use of firearms, falling asleep on night shift, more substantial courteous matters or accepting de minimis gratuities. Also multiple lower level repetitive actions that would then rise to being considered a mid-level action at that point. And then high level disciplinary actions might result in substantial discipline and could include such things as harassment, excessive use of force, abuse of authority, failure to follow direct orders or knowing associations with criminals or targets of BPD investigations or other state law enforcement agencies. So outcomes of these various types of infractions again may result in a continuum of responses on the part of the department in the city. Some would include non-disciplinary actions such as training and education, as I said, or counseling, written performance evaluations. And then mid-level and higher fractions can result in written reprimands, reassignment of your position within the department, a demotion, suspensions both paid and unpaid, or the ultimate termination of your position as a police officer. So as some issue may roll into the police department, it becomes aware of the administration. Again, as I said, the chief and the deputy chiefs will look this over and assign. If they feel it rises to the level of needing an internal investigation will assign it to an uninvolved supervisor to investigate. At that point, the member of the that's assigned to the investigation will review such things as documents, body worn camera footage. They may contact the complainant or the information source to gather further information. They may evaluate physical evidence if there is any, and they may make a recommendation about that in order to complete a full investigation and ultimately make a recommendation about the case at issue. They may also interview the subject officers and that has its own full parameters on how those interviews take place. But sometimes that is necessary. And the department will engage in such work. So after the investigation is complete, the supervisor will write up a full report and return the recommendation to the deputy chiefs and the chief of police for review and consideration. The administration will then review the case along with the Burlington police commission, which is our public body that has the charge of working to review citizen complaints alongside the Burlington police department. And that may occur in executive session. In addition to reviewing cases with the police commission and receiving their consultation on potential levels of discipline, the chief may also consult with the human resources director at the city of Burlington and our office, the city attorney's office as well. The probably largest input also comes to the mayor's office where the chief will work with the mayor on heightened levels of discipline and issues involving the department. But subsequent to all of these consultations, again, as I said in the charter, the discipline of police officers falls to the chief. So it is the person in that position's ultimate decision as to how the case may be adjudicated and in line with state law, the union contract, et cetera. So the chief's findings will then usually be categorized in one of the following manners. It's either something that's unfounded. So the investigation has indicated that the acts complained of did not occur or failed to involve police personnel. That is something that may happen. The chief may find that the officer that has a complaint against them is exonerated. The acts maybe did occur, but they were justified based on the training, the law, et cetera, and the police officer acted properly in the situation that unfolded. The chief may find that the issue is non-sustained. Investigation has failed to disclose sufficient evidence to prove clearly or disprove the allegations made in such a complaint. The chief may sustain a complaint as well. The investigation disclosed sufficient evidence to clearly prove that the allegations made in the complaint had sufficient evidence to be proven. And then there's also not involved that the investigation establishes the individual named in the complaint is not actually involved in the underlying conduct that was complained of to begin with. So if discipline is handed down by the department to one of our police officers, they may accept the discipline, whether that's counseling all the way up to again dismissal, or if they feel that for some reason the discipline is out of line with the action that occurred on and in consultation with the union and perhaps their own counsel, they may choose to appeal. So the first level of an appeal or they'll grieve a discipline, a decision, and the first step is to file that with the chief of police. And the chief then has seven weekdays after the grievance is laid out as to why that individual or group of officers may believe that the discipline does not meet the underlying actions. So if the chief then has a chance to reevaluate, they may again sustain, hold the line on what discipline they've handed down, they may reconsider, evaluate it and change their decision. If that doesn't resolve the discipline and both the member and the administration are satisfied at that point, the grievance may move to step two, which then again under our city charter is the responsibility of the police commission to act as the appeal body for police department grievances. And a grievance may submit in writing to the chair of the board of police commissioners within five days of receipt of that decision by the police chief that they want to move to the second stage. And at that point, a hearing is heard before the body of the police commissioners to review the discipline and the underlying facts. And they'll have a hearing and then in conjunction with someone within the city attorney's office, typically they will write a decision again, they can say yes, we believe that the chief handed out the proper discipline or they may say we believe less discipline is appropriate or perhaps a higher level of discipline is appropriate. At that point, again, the goes back to the grievance and they can decide if they accept that decision and go back to living their life as it may be or they can say nope, still not satisfied, we want to go to step three. And at that point, the union can forward a written notice of the intent to go to arbitration. And for those that aren't familiar with arbitration, it's a system of essentially holding a trial and in front of a single arbiter, it's not in a court of law, but it is based on principle legal principles. And that party will look at everything in a fair and impartial matter. And this is an instance where it's again, a de novo case, as we like to say in the law, so you go back to square one, they kind of look everything from fresh eyes and the union will present their side of the case, the city or the administration will present their side of their arguments in the case, and then it's up to the arbitrator to decide what level of discipline they may feel is necessary here, it may be to sustain it and again, they have the ability to change. But at the end of the day, the decision of the arbitrator on the matter is final and binding upon all parties. We also have here in the state of Vermont Act 56 of 2017, which it is relating to professional regulation of law enforcement officers by the Vermont Justice Criminal Training Council. And this is something that the Vermont Criminal Justice Council will look at misconduct of police officers and evaluate it. And as a department, there's also a duty to report to them certain actions for their review. They have three types of categories, which they break down professional misconduct into category A, B and C. A is crimes committed both on and off duty, which could include a felony misdemeanors, again, both on and off duty. Category B is gross professional misconduct, which amounts to actions or duty under color of authority or both that involve a willing, willful failure to comply with state required policy or substantial deviation from professional conduct. There is a list in the act that you could also look up that has some of those actions laid out more specifically. And then C is misconduct related to counsel processes such as falsifying a training record or intentionally exceeding the scope of practice in a given certification level or intentional failure to conduct a valid investigation, etc. So agencies are required under state law to report also if there has been a termination for category A or B level of conduct or a resignation prior to such with pending discipline out there. If the officer, yes, again, resigns under investigation by the department. Act 56 also requires that all agencies have what has been termed effective internal affairs program and must conduct a valid investigation. So the way that our system is laid out, it meets these standards, but it's that you have an again, effective internal internal affairs program. You can accept a complaint from any source. And as I pointed out earlier, we accept all citizens complaints we try to make. And again, doesn't just have to come from citizens, but that any source can come to the department or a member of the city and make a complaint if they feel it's necessary. We assign investigators to determine if a violation took place. There is language in our policy or bargaining agreements that establish codes of conduct, which the department has extensive lists of directives around the way that all of our officers officers are to conduct themselves on a daily basis, and a corresponding range of discipline if they're to violate such rules and regulations, tries, excuse me, provides for civilian review, which we do with our Burlington Police Commission and has provides fairness and discipline. If a report is made to the Vermont Council, it is ultimately up to their prosecutor to determine whether or not the conduct rises to the level of professional misconduct. And if the prosecutor decides it does not, then it kind of stops right there with the council. But if the prosecutor decides that it does, then the council may begin a hearing process. And under the Vermont Administrative Procedures Act, it requires due process for an officer that can lead to them being decertified or be subject to any official sanction by the certification entity, in this case the council. Due process consists of notifying the officer the allegations that propose action by the council, the date and time of a hearing, and affording the officer the opportunity to provide a defense. The council will ensure that agency heads, so here in Burlington are police chief and others are informed as the process moves forward. And no action will be taken against an officer's certification until the conclusion of these hearings or unless an officer waves the right to the hearing and accepts the handed down proposed sanction or further. So that's kind of the broad overview, I hope I didn't put everybody to sleep. But that's kind of how discipline currently works here in the city of Burlington. Yes. I have a question on, do you keep statistics on what reports or complaints are being made and are they available? Yes. The department does keep statistical data and the chief does publish his chief's report. I don't want to speak for him, but that is a public document that is published online. How much of this is public and how much is private? I mean, we've been through some situations where things have remained private as part of the consideration process. So how does this play out? So this as a complaint rolls in or it does again an accusation or something it's all about due process for the officers. So just like as if any one of you were to be charged or accused of something that doesn't like play out in the public eye in the open. Again, as public officers, they're held to a high standard and there is a level of transparency that the citizens expect and we try to balance that both within the city and within the rights that are provided to our employees under labor law, the due process. So it's tricky. It's not as clear and open as maybe some would wish, but it's always the balancing act that we play. So there is a record of the complaint, but not the process of considering? We do keep a record internally. It's just whether or not it's made publicly available and that's public records law. A lot of that is actually exempted from public inspection. And that's just part of the Vermont state law that that's kind of how that unfolds. I just want to echo what people have been asking about like the statistics more specifically how many historically how many grievance process have to reach that level two and level three. If that's something that's made available, but also more importantly during like the when we were having the debate about question seven, one of the biggest talking point that the opposition to the developed questions raised is the unprecedented power given to this proposed board to override the chief's decision, disciplinary decisions. But what you're saying and what the charter actually says, the police commission can already have that power to actually modify, affirm or vacate. I think that is the language of the chief's disciplinary decision. So, but they can only do that in response to grievance raised by the union or by the officers, but not in response to public complaints or requests from the city council. Is that correct? That's correct. So they play the appeal body, but the been ordered for it to get there. It has to be a grievance that moves to the second step, but they do have the power to override the chief's decision. They can. Yes. And they send out recommendations. Yes. So why did the administration keep saying this was like something that was unprecedented? This is time for questions. Okay. I just want to be clear. We will have time for public comment. Right now for questions and clarifications on what all I wanted to ask is like the clarification like that. My understanding of it was correct. That it was actually that there is the power with the police commission to override the chief decision. May I? Yes. So first of all, Jared knows more than just about anybody on this stuff. I mean, this, that was an extraordinary list of due process due process, you know, comes from the 14th amendment. We are all entitled to it. We are entitled to equal protection under the laws. We're entitled to due process. That due process that he just listed was was a long process. There's a lot going in there, but the consequences of these acts are really high, right? Police officers, I think, have more scrutiny than almost any other profession, but they need to have that scrutiny because the authorities that are given to officers are extraordinary. So with regard to some of these questions, the issue of what is the breakdown? We get about 45 citizen complaints a year. A third of those are invalid on their face. They are complaints for Burlington, Iowa. They are complaints that are actually criminal complaints that are mistakenly filed through the citizen complaint portal. Somebody says my car was broken into and I'd like to report that. Some of them are driven by mental health, that you will see a person who is making a complaint that is clearly driven by mental health needs. And we will refer those appropriately to our CSLs, our community support liaisons, in-house social workers, to the Howard Center. But we don't investigate those. If somebody says something that is clearly outside the realm of reality about aliens or something along those lines, that's not going to be an investigation nor is a complaint for Burlington, Iowa. But the other two thirds of those 45, the 30, we take very seriously and we look into those. We treat them as really important cases because that's what they are. How many of them result in a true Bureau of Internal Affairs issue? Very few. Three a year, sometimes five, sometimes only two. And an internal affairs case is one that could have a very outsized disciplinary outcome where somebody could in fact be terminated or they could lose days or they could have something that seriously impacts their career in their file. The others are largely going to be matters of admonition or matters of correction, matters of retraining because they don't rise to that level. With regard to the citizen with the police commission, the police commission does have the authority to overrule the chief after an appellate process. And so there is a difference between a board that would have taken away the authority of a chief of police and given it instead to a group of citizens and what we currently have. There's a big difference there. And that difference is that the nature of police discipline and the nature of the due process that he describes has so many layers. But the initial layer has to be one certainly and I'm speaking from, you know, in my capacity as chief and in my opinion, as somebody who's been in this profession for 18 years now, you need an understanding of the law, need an understanding of the training that has been received, you need an understanding of the directives that guide a given agency, you need an understanding of the experience that officers go through and what it is to be out in the public. Our officers go through 16 weeks of police academy training. I have three terrific officers who have just finished field training. I'm really, really happy to have those officers out on our team and out there in the public. They've been through 16 weeks, 880 hours, I think it is, of training at the Vermont Police Academy. They have been through 14 weeks of field training where they are with a police officer all the time. They cannot be act in a solo capacity. They are learning in the field. That's 580 hours. There's another 80 or 100 hours, I believe, of post basic training and that's on top of the 80 or 100 hours of pre basic training we gave them before we even sent them to the police academy. That's a lot of training. It's certainly more than a lay person would have with regard to what policing is and how it works. I would not give, oh, of course. Excuse me, excuse me. Okay. I just want to remind you. Sure. I'll stop. No problem. My apologies and that's fair. I wouldn't put one of those officers in charge of discipline. I don't believe they've got the knowledge base in order to make disciplinary determinations about complex, highly fraught incidents. That said, the public has to have trust that this process is honest and the difficulty is the transparency and I'll stop and I'm sorry. I'm sorry, acting chief of police John Murad. I have a point of order. What is the purpose of this conversation? I just want to know because we're here to discuss with this individual and I want to be sure it is a discussion. Is that what we're here for a discussion? Thank you. My apologies. So to remind us, do you have a question? Please go ahead. Well, I just, I also want to make sure that I was under the understanding that I was going to come here just to give a brief overview of our discipline process and then it was going to be an opportunity to base on maybe the things that I said for members of the two NPAs to comment on what they'd like to see from the city council. This is my understanding. So it was less for me to have any answer to this question. For you about what you said, points of clarification about the current process is what we're looking for right now and that's all. Yes, we're not expecting you to defend the system just to describe it for us. Okay. I have just a question here I think. Yeah, I just have some simple clarification questions. I understand that the she didn't hear anything. Okay, I understand the microphone. Okay, I understand that the chief makes the final decision if there's been a complaint. And if it could be a complaint, it could be, as I said, if there's an internal review of something that leads to another officer saying this is out of line with our training, etc., and bringing it to their supervisor and that going up. Again, the administration catching something while they're out in the field and just viewing an officer carrying out their business as a police officer. So yeah, it's not just based on citizen complex, but that's one of the ways. I'm just trying to look at the process of the disciplining. So the makes the final decision whether whatever the issue was. And then if that person who was brought forth has a complaint about the tree and rejects the decision, it goes back to the chief to reconsider. Is that that's the first step in the appeal process? Okay. And then but I was wondering who if there's a grievance with the chief because there are these different levels of complaints high, low and medium. So one of the high level was something like harassment. So who brought if someone brought a level of harassment against the police chief himself, who disciplines the chief? That would fall to the mayor and the city council would have, I'm sure input as well, but that would ultimately fall to the mayor. And or the Vermont Criminal Justice Council, if that was the level of something that was a duty for us as a city to report the conduct. And who decides will that conduct would be reported to the mayor then? Well, that's state law. So we yeah, would the conduct would be and there would be some type of internal investigation, but it may just automatically be a triggering event. And then we would immediately have to turn it over to them. And as I said, they have their own process and do an investigation. They have a prosecutor who is an attorney that works with them and then their body will facilitate interviews with the officer who may be alleged to have caused or undergone misconduct and they'll come out with a decision on that. Okay, I'm trying to figure out just then in the police commission has some say over, but they were actually, I mean, just from reading the newspaper, apparently that they were told not to reveal certain instances of a case. So I don't understand the role of the police commission. How much power do they actually have in which in terms of disciplining officers or if there's been a complaint made? So the police commission doesn't have authority to discipline police officers as it is now, but they will they play a role under our charter as the appeal body. If an officer has been disciplined and feels that there is a grievance and that can't be resolved between themselves and the chief of police, then it goes to the police commission who can then review that case. And there's a hearing and then they as a body make a decision around that. And the decision is supposed to be public or confidential? No, that decision would then be made public if it's a final decision of the police commission. But it's advisory. Okay, let's go on to another question. Okay, that's good. There's a question online. Melo, do you have a question? Is your hand raised? Hi, thank you. I actually didn't have a question. I just wanted to respond with some clarification. I'm sorry, Melo. This is not an opportunity for debate. We're asking questions. I'm not debating anything. I'm just trying to give clarification as a former police commissioner. What is actual current practice so that everyone can be informed? Okay. So with regards to the complaints that are submitted by residents, we can talk about the complaints, we can review the complaints, and practice we don't always agree with the disposition of the chief, but we can't change it. One of the things that is also at bay is that it's not always public because our current process is you can't, we can't even tell the complainant what we reviewed with regards to their complaint. So it's a very difficult process. So it's not only can't be discussed publicly, which other oversight bodies do, although the names and things are redacted, but we can't even talk to the complainant, which is the reality of what the current situation is. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. In the interest of time and recognizing that there's a lot of people who I think showed up in order to provide public comment, I want to thank Assistant City Attorney Pellerin for providing a very helpful background. There may be additional questions that come up. We have gotten prompts from our city council members of the questions on which they would like input. I want to review those quickly so that people know what kind of input would be most appreciated here. And then we will turn to all of you and try and give everyone an opportunity to speak who would like to. So the questions on which our city councilors have asked us for input include, how do you define public safety? Do you think the current approach of police accountability and oversight, which gives the police chief's sole authority is appropriate or that the responsibility should be shared through an approach that involves trained citizen engagement? Best practices say that all key stakeholders must be engaged. What key stakeholders, including police officers, should be engaged? What goals should any police oversight system seek to achieve? What kind of experience is needed on a police oversight board? What are the pros and cons of enrolling the following in police discipline? The mayor, the city council, the police chief, elected or appointed police commission members, a professional oversight board, or community members either elected or appointed to an oversight board? And understanding that the components of police oversight have been negotiated in union contracts, what role, if any, should the police union have in crafting changes to police oversight? These are the questions that we got from our city councilors on which they're looking for our input. With that in mind, we would like to recognize anyone who would like to speak. In light of the number of people who are here, we're going to start with an initial time limit for each speaker of two minutes. My colleague Nancy is going to be keeping track of time. When one minute and 30 seconds have expired, she's going to hold up a yellow card. It should be readily visible to anybody in the room. Those online, I'm not sure exactly how that'll work. And then when your time is up, she'll hold up a red card. We understand that not everybody can stop on a dime, but when the red card is up, that means your time is up. And we would appreciate you concluding out of respect to everyone else who's here and looking to participate. We're going to take a few comments from folks in the room, and then a few comments from people online and go back and forth like that, recognizing that this could be a long evening for everyone involved. So with that, I would encourage folks on the Zoom, if you are interested in making a comment to use the raise hand function, and likewise here in the room, folks who would like to speak to put up your hands, and we'll do our best to get to everybody. The same raise hand function. The same raise hand function. Is there anyone in the room who would like to kick us off? And please start by identifying yourself and which words you live in. Sure. Alan Mattson, Ward 6, I think I'll try to respond actually to where I heard the prompts. First thing is, it's key for me that there's accountability by whatever party or whatever group does the discipline. And so therefore, I stay in the realm of whether it's the department, whether it's elected officials, whoever it is, to do that. Additionally, one thing that always strikes me about the discussions of discipline is thinking about the discipline that probably occurs in other places in the city. We spend less time talking about it, I'm sure, but you know, it's probably a pretty similar process in a lot of ways. The same confidentiality ideas will apply across the city. And I think most of us have been in jobs, we're the same thing is true. There's a certain confidentiality in all discipline that goes on within a company as well. And anybody who does any kind of HR is pretty well aware of this. So these kinds of things I think are actually important to me. I heard a lot of concern that there is this confidentiality, but it's important to the process. Additionally, the idea of the union I feel I have strong belief in unions, I feel that they probably should have input in this. I think it's important there for them to keep doing that. And then also, you know, a couple of things away from it, I totally agree that I've never been a police officer, I've never dealt with the pressures. I've never dealt with the expectations of the community as a police officer. If I were to be involved in any kind of decision making, I would have to learn a lot. I think before I could actually do that. And I think it's really important that that is an understanding of anybody who does any kind of discipline. Additionally, public safety, you know, what I see is, you know, it's a community event. It's not just police. And, you know, I think all of us as citizens can do our part as well to try to help. And, you know, things like, I'll just say, you know, driving the speed limit and stopping and stop signs is a good way to start, you know, for all of us. So I hope that we're all thinking about behaving as well. I've got a ton more to say, and I know that the red card will get me soon, so I'll hang up. Thank you. Who's next? Who's next? My name is Charlie Rivers and I'm a part of the Ward 5 steering committee. Glad to be here this evening and glad to be able to meet all of you. My ideas are to keep it as simple as possible. I've worked in many branches of state government and I do also believe in accountability. And I think it's very important I echo the need for confidentiality. In our system of justice, people are innocent until proven guilty and I think that they need to be afforded whatever protections they can have. I also think that the police are very public through that can often be seen in a particular way, fairly unfairly. They're a high profile service in their community. And one of the things I really believe in is that there should be civilian oversight of the police department. That seems very important, but how that's done is also very important to me. So I actually think this more simple solution would be to embed them within city government and have them a part of the disciplinary process that already exists. That goes up to the chief executive, who is the mayor, and that the final decision would be by him and perhaps some other authority about if that were necessary, or I should say. So I would try to keep it as simple as possible or just bring the police department within city government itself and not make it this kind of standalone fight done. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone online or in the room like to go next? Great. I just have a response to the last two commenters. Let's look at the fire department in the city charter. The city council actually can be both disciplined on any member of the fire department. And I believe that's what democratic control looks like. Yes, I'd like to ask one question and then perhaps make a statement. When someone has a complaint and they have to go through this process that you described, Jared, is there support for that individual that like our community justice people or I'm just trying to imagine. I feel like I live a life where I don't have to worry about these things, but I can imagine that going through the process you're describing without anyone supporting you and having to face all of these processes would be difficult, if not almost seen as impossible by certain individuals. How does that work? Is there any support there? I guess it depends on the way that this complaint may or might not be a victim advocate or something if you're involved in a crime that also had police involvement carried out in it. A lot of complaints are also we take them anonymously because that makes people feel protected and they want to be able to voice but not have to be the subject of further communication with the process but they feel like voicing that as they're so the varying levels of support there are I think is kind of dependent on each situation and how the complaint may arise, but there's not a direct as far as I know a direct support system in place for anyone who makes a specific complaint. Okay then my comment would be as much as I know that the citizens that probably have the most problems are the ones that need the most support and that if what I view as public safety would be to support those citizens that probably have the most problems and find out more about what they need via a good system of inquiry if we haven't you know really this obviously we're in a nice ward here and you know it's kind of comfortable so I feel that we could I personally am very interested in being more involved in hearing from citizens who face the police in ways that I do not and then as part of that so that's what I see is public safety is that it has to be for everyone you know it really has and I feel that we have to go out of our way to make sure that it's it's represent this process whatever it becomes represents those that are the least represented and then and then in terms of how we do the policy these are very complicated questions that I haven't studied enough and I won't attempt to answer every one but I think that we need to do much more to understand what would be genuinely not only because the problem of the confidentiality is is that we learn about infractions as citizens when we're going through public processes with individuals that have had infractions that we didn't know about and that that seems to me that we need to look at the process again of the commission or and and your point is interesting that should it be within the city or not I do not know but we need a representative system that can review on behalf of our citizens how our police are managing themselves because without that we have no guarantee that we are safely treating our citizens thank you you don't yeah I have a question the oversight board is not existing as of this day right so what would be a member of that board what would you be looking for as a member of that board and how many members would you need I certainly don't have the answer to that and I think that that's what this whole forum tonight is about is trying to hear from you as members of the public like what you envision that board to look like or what you think it should involve so that would be how many do you think and president policy here to hear those things and she'll be involved in I'm sure debates and policy discussions as they try to hash these things out so do we have an example of another city that has perhaps already has a board that you can look at how that board yes that there's many models out there and this is something police oversight by civilians there are models out there and that's certainly something that I'm sure the city council will be looking at as they go through this process and have already you know over time so just for clarity we're talking about a citizen oversight board that was just resoundly voted down on or is this something different I haven't been welcome to you sorry well I'm not an expert on this but my understanding is we're talking about how the police disciplinary system end of oversight will work in light of the the fact that there was interest in a ballot and it went down okay and that's that question about what to do that it wasn't that but what to do whether to keep the existing system as it is or whether to make any changes to work okay so you're asking us neighbors and the NPA people thought that there might be needs for change okay yeah thank you yeah I was just confused it's possible that the current system works as is possible that changes should be made the city council is looking at this and again I would I would if you want my opinion I would agree with what Alan said and the business world there's so much in and human resources they have oh sorry sorry sorry sorry I wasn't planning on speaking I just was just trying to clarify what this was and my understanding I mean I thought Alan was pretty eloquent that in business there's human resources I know there's so many rules that there can't be a lot of public information I also know that there is a union that's very strong so I think it's really complicated and to ask the public just to tell us what we should do in regarding policing oh my gosh like I am not educated enough at all and the hours that go into that I'm just really thankful that we have who we have because I feel like we're in a crisis of public safety right now so just happy that we have the police officers in the chief thank you and could I just ask you I'm sorry Meg McGovern word sex I'm sorry I didn't know the point Andrea whoops Andrea Rogers I just you know in in the whole picture I I don't entirely understand all the sequences but I feel like the key here is to further clarify and strengthen the role of the commission and and I don't quite understand this issue of whether we're part of the government or you're not part of the government but I just think that that is a citizen board and we should recognize it as such and give them a role that is part of that as much as I don't know a lot about how all these things work but thank you Andrea Rogers is my name I'm confused is there a board is there a citizen no so what are you doing sort of a police commission as um as the assistant to the attorney explained at the start there is a police commission it's not a board it's not an oversight board it's a police commission I can't summarize what he said you know I listened to it that's where it was yeah um we do have uh we had a hand on mine I don't see it right now but I've got a hand up right behind me hello my name is Elena Greenberg I live in ward five I'm also on the ward five steering committee um and I'm excited to hear the prompt about what public safety is a lot of folks have mentioned this but I think that public safety is about having a warm bed to sleep in at night and having clean air to breathe and making sure that your kid can go to school where they can eat a healthy lunch and getting your needs met and getting medical care and if the police are called that means all of those things haven't happened and we shouldn't have to get there so I would love to see our city invest in addressing those root causes before we continue to pour money into the police force not out of disrespect for the acting chief or the officers just out of concern for my fellow burlingtonians and I would love to see us as Farid mentioned use a parody system to the firefighters we already have good systems I don't want to burden our elected officials and our and our public servants with creating brand new processes that don't need to be created when we could use something that already works and exists thank you um any hands on line don't see any hands online right now others people like to offer public comment I have another clarification please go ahead a number of years ago actually when Peter Clavel was mayor so it was a number of years ago there was a citizens commission of which I was part where we were studying the role of the commissions in the role of the mayor and at that time we had what was called a weak mayor system and the commissions hired and fired the department heads and then it was changed so to what's called a strong it's not a totally strong mayor system but more so and so I'm not sure what that did to the commission's power the police commission's power at one point I I understand I'm not I assume that they were like the other commissions I know my husband was on the electric commission and they hired and fired the head of the electric department not the mayor the commission did so because that was changed I just I'm not quite sure what it means I think the commission should have more power frankly be strengthened I think that's the way to go but I'm not sure legally is there some restriction now with our present system I'm just and this may go beyond the question so we asked you to be prepared if you know that I don't know the the political history behind this switch from as you pointed out a weak mayor to the strong mayor and now as you all are probably familiar department heads are appointed by the mayor right with confirmation by the city council as for the the history behind the police commission itself that I I'm not sure though that's a public body that is again appointed with city council mayor presiding and they people are nominated then then they have a process to review those candidates and then vote if they should be members of the police commission but to your point of how that role how how their role should be expanded that's not for me to say but I would say the thing that we do operate under and is our number one rulemaker is our charter and the Burlington City Charter is it is states that the role of discipline lies within the position of the chief of police and that's why we had that valid item in front of the public because in order to have a charter change the public has to show this Vermont state legislature that they support their charter saying something different and then it goes to the legislature and then the Vermont state legislature takes that up and decides if what's right for Burlington is also potentially right for the rest of the state because in the legal world you start to create precedence by allowing things in certain areas and so I think you know that's part of their whole process and that's a different topic for a different day but um yeah that's kind of where it stands yes hi excuse me hi I'm will Anderson from Ward six uh so a couple of points um I guess my uh kind of primary concern with the police oversight uh is about you know the culture of the police because you know I have a lot of appreciation for the due process and you know how it can deal with specific incidents you know which I think you know acting chief said amounted to like an average of three per year you know that process the involvement of the union uh you know the grievance process makes a lot of sense to me but what's most concerning to me about the chief having such sole authority over discipline is that if the chief hypothetically turned a blind eye to or endorsed a culture in the police that had a double standard towards you know people who weren't white or people who weren't wealthy then I think that that would lead and maybe is leading uh to a situation that is not representative of public safety and I also think that you know during the campaign for question seven really convinced me that a more democratic approach would go a long way towards mitigating that uh because people would have a real say you know uh not just on specific incidents but how the police act day to day and interact with people um and a lot of people that I've talked with in Burlington you know have really expressed these concerns to me uh that you know they're living in fear of the police I don't think that's I don't think that's safety and I think that you know comes from the mindset with regard to the question of what we're doing here I think that it really comes back to the fact that the question seven I don't think was resoundly defeated got 30 percent 37 percent of the vote after a long campaign of petitions and multiple city counselors expressed a desire even if it was defeated to find a way to reach agreements uh amongst citizens to find a way that everyone can feel a lot better about police oversight I think that comes down to culture and not just specific incidents but you know the way that the police really carry themselves and and interact with us day to day I don't think that the chief should have that responsibility solely I think we should find a more democratic solution thanks we have a hand online Don would you like to offer your comments yeah I just wanted to say uh John Van Rijnard uh board six uh I just want to say that I I think that the majority spoke and and we should we should uh respect that and we should we should have less oversight of the police department and and uh and and respect the due process that is in place and uh and basically support our police department as best we can uh given uh all that has happened over the past few years thank you thank you let's go ahead I'm Rosie Gaudio in board six and I don't have anything that makes me any kind of an expert in policing or police oversight um other than living in the United States for the past I won't tell you to come in years um I I did not vote in favor of the ballot initiative um related to this topic but it wasn't because I didn't support citizen oversight it was because I didn't think it was a good proposition um I didn't think it was well developed and I do believe that we do need some kind of oversight input participation in uh honestly the way our friend put it here police culture outside of the police system itself and so as long as the only inputs that we're getting are within the chain of command or from the training council or even the mayor's office I think can can really mostly be wearing a police mindset I really think we need something strengthening the commission maybe one way to do that going the way Terry described maybe a way to do that that's not my area of expertise but I I do feel like any system that is only overseen by its own culture is most likely to get itself into a loo that becomes unproductive and that's a risk I think that we've been walking the line sometimes not just hearing from the entire country and I'd like us not to pursue that but to find another way ensure citizen input and ways of looking beyond looking at everything we do like police thank you looking around the room and online not seeing any hands given that we had a two minute limit and I'm not seeing any hands I will offer anyone who's already spoken the opportunity to speak again if you had more to say and felt constrained by the time first off one of the things that I didn't understand before coming tonight that I really appreciate having learned about is actually the role the Christian criminal justice council and is it act 56 I've had this feeling like I agree we need to do something and it needs there's I've agreed I agree with a lot of that I kind of come across maybe a different way but I have also felt like doing it locally for everybody is is fraught with some issues and I didn't realize that the we actually do have the state council and you know I think we've seen other issues not just in Burlington but with some of the things that have been done by various sheriffs and other places that I would say need to be looked into by other groups and so one thing I'm sitting here thinking about and I'm glad to have learned about it is what can happen at a broader level and not just locally so when you know you're kind of looking for this input that's something that's in my head also to say that is then looking at it from outside of Burlington outside our own department and I I didn't realize that that structure existed and it's something I need to learn more about as a citizen to support it. Jesse Warren Ward 5 I just want to suggest to President Paul and whoever else is involved in acting chief whoever else is involved in the determination of what this something may look like is the importance of and this touches to what I just spoke about in the beginning but the importance of random selection because juries you know anytime there is a board that is overseeing whether or not someone gets goes to jail or goes to gets a significant has a significant negative impact on their life we kind of intuitively know that that that whatever that is it's probably best if it's chosen randomly because otherwise there it inserts the potential for you know different factions and political concerns even if it's appointed it's elected you know because the analogy I think of is imagine if the the the jury that was going to be here in your case about whether or not you're going to go to prison was appointed by you know somebody it's not quite the same here but there is a significant design mechanism to the idea of random selection that I think is important to think about that's all I want to say. Nancy Harkins Ward 6 um I don't have any answers for sure on this but one thing that really strikes me is that we're struggling not only with the broader societal issues that were raised earlier the the whole community and the police department are dealing with the ramifications of that but we're also dealing with an absence of trust on both sides and whatever changes are made going forward I think transparency is going to be very key to rebuilding that trust and having greater visibility to the community. I'm just wondering back to the idea of like looking at what we have with the fire department if the attorney can maybe have opinions or like it's not something that we can legally do like because it's already in the charter in that any member of the fire department including up to the chief could be disciplined by the city council if maybe or maybe the chief can tell me like maybe there's like a lot of contrast pros and cons of that so sorry for it we promise that we're not going to be answering those types of questions okay trying to gather input here and we're not getting into the I didn't realize that was not okay I do see we have a hand on line mellow seems like they could have answered hi thank you I just wanted to offer myself as a conduit for providing resources as a city counselor my email address is online but it is m e grant at Burlington vt.gov m e grant at Burlington vt.gov there is another m grant in the system so with that e is very important for people who would like more clarification as to what the police commission currently does and for anyone who would like examples the New Haven Connecticut civilian oversight board and their police commission is a very interesting example to look at as well as the goals of community oversight I can just send out links to anyone who's interested to peruse them at their leisure I just hear a lot of questions about these type of things and be happy to provide some documentation for people to review thank you very much thank you and and along those lines I'll add that acting chief mirad asked me likewise if he could provide some resources to all of us so I think the ward six steering committee or the wards five and six steering committee will gather those resources put them together I know that there are mailing lists for each of the wards if anyone here is not on that email mailing list already and would like to receive that you can just give us your email and we will either add you to that list or make sure you get a copy of the specific notes following this meeting with those resources and we'll put it in front porch and and we'll put a note about it in front porch form as well I don't know if we'll be able to list all the resources there but we'll create a way to make them all available and I see another hand over here yeah another worthwhile resource is the uh and oh hey my I'm actually not in the south end but I'm Daniel Montagno I live in ward number three one additional resource that might be good to include is former city attorney blackwood's analysis of various oversight models that were used across the country and going back to what someone said and you know come up over and over again the lack of trust in the police department and the lack of transparency in in how the process runs so sometimes incidents come too ahead it's just reaches like the front of people's consciousness and it definitely did in fall of 2020 and there were calls to to take action right like I strongly believe that returning the power to city hall where both the police chief and also the city council that are directly accountable to voters can re reconsider in these very very extreme cases it's like people are hurt like when you have hours and hours of testimony after a city or before a city council meeting people are relaying their personal stories and these are oftentimes all of the people that don't feel comfortable making a formal complaint and perhaps it's because they feel like nothing is going to be done and that's a rough position for people to find themselves in so I definitely hope that we can go go back to that analysis and kind of make steps going forward but but I also strongly believe that returning even back to the language in the city charter that existed before the mayor had sole authority on on making the decisions about department heads could be a worthwhile step and it's kind of everybody's decision like we we should have input in public forums at the very least it's it's like all of our city thank you yeah yes please go ahead I never introduced myself I'm Megan Epler wood from word six I was wondering about follow-up I appreciate the offer of resources but you know as many people have commented it's rather difficult to dive this deeply into city council policy questions as as people that you know in all walks of life are normally not focusing on and and and also what you mentioned just now all these people coming to city council to give their own experiences has been I'm sure valuable but if we want to take it to the next level I myself I'm trying to figure out how we can get more information for example from other cities or from other initiatives and I I don't know from as far NPA is the right place to do this but I'd appreciate or from you know city council chair Karen Paul has anything to say about how how we as citizens can be better informed before we propose new ideas if you don't like air they're talking to a microphone when you don't feel like it's a microphone it's an odd feeling you keep on looking and nothing is getting louder um so yeah thank you I'm Karen Paul city councilor and word six um first want to thank the ward five and ward six NPAs for for sponsoring this forum um during the last town meeting day election um I heard from a number of people including a number of people that are in this room tonight um who wanted the opportunity to talk about public safety who wanted the opportunity to have a a chance to share their their perspective on what is public safety and on what is police accountability and oversight um and I do agree with those people who said that um while the the results of the ballot item were decidedly not positive on ballot item seven I do not think personally based on the experiences that I've had of listening to many constituents that that is a referendum on the fact that we do not need to have a very serious discussion about police oversight and accountability so for all those people who have said that I think that you're I based on the number of people that I have heard from I do agree with you um the national there is a and I'm always gonna I always get this wrong so someone will correct me um there's an organization that is considered to be really the premier national organization on civilian oversight it's very got a very handy acronym of NACOL um it's the national association of civilian oversight of law enforcement and they have a really terrific um tool online on their website that they just created in the last couple of months you put in the different things that you're looking for in a police oversight model and they give you a list of the cities and links to learning about what these cities do so when you ask are there others there are for every city that there is who has a police oversight model that's how many different different nuanced models there are there's just no perfect fit it's not it's not a cookie cutter kind of thing and um you know uh uh counselor gran has pointed out New Haven Connecticut they have a they have an oversight model which works for them um they have a very large police department you know I mean we're smaller and then again there are plenty of other cities that have smaller police departments who also have an oversight model so I'm happy to you know I'm happy to share that so that you can pass that along to others um as far as the process is concerned um you know in February on February 6th the city council passed a resolution which created this joint committee of charter change and ordinance to look at changes to the our our existing ordinance and our existing charter change um in the event that ballad item seven was not successful so that's what we are moving forward with and you'll see there's I'm the only city councilor um from the from the south end who's here that's because the other two are serving on the joint committee and unfortunately as luck would have it that meeting it one of those meetings is this evening so that's why you don't that's why you only see me um one of the one of the usual patterns of being council president is that you don't serve on lots of committees that's um that's for the the other 11 um although I am actually serving as luck would have it on as chair of public safety so um in any event um you know is there an opportunity yes there are many opportunities and this is just the first um the other thing I also wanted to mention is if there are if there are people that are here for whom the idea of speaking um publicly about your feelings about public safety isn't your idea of comfort um that's okay too um we want to hear from you no matter how you want to communicate that to us and that was the idea is that we saw what happened with the ballad item now we move forward to finding a way to to embrace police oversight in a way that is broadly supported by the community broadly supported by every key stakeholder of which also includes police officers um you know my anecdotal experience has been the particularly younger officers understand very much the need for the public wanting to have trust and to have some level of citizen oversight um the the trick is finding what works is finding what what model is going to work for our community so um thank you so much for having this forum um and uh and to all who spoke thank you um if you have any further thoughts this is not the end this is only the beginning tonight's meeting of this joint committee was the first and we are definitely going to be having more so um I'll leave it at that thank you it's a perfect ending well I didn't think that's okay everybody for part of the meeting and um as as Karen just said this is uh an important and ongoing conversation I will speak for myself in saying that I learned a lot tonight about the existing process about concerns with the process and about different ways of finding out more information and more ideas so um I appreciate that and I think we'll keep talking thank you with that good night everybody