 you need to be afraid, otherwise you're not doing it right. If you think, okay, that's gonna be fun and cozy. No, it's gonna hurt. That's why you're doing it. That's the fun. That's not cozy. So if you feel safe, if you don't feel that friction or the confidence that that friction can be okay, you're not doing the future. You're doing something else. I don't know what that is, coasting, you know? So even if it looks downhill, it's not. Martin Wozowski is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Martin works as chief futurist for SAP's Technology and Innovation. He is lecturing as a faculty member of Future I.O., also a fellow colleague of mine at Future I.O. A European Future Institute and other education programs, he has moved across a wide range of disciplines from user experience to systemic design, to define innovation, visions, and strategies. Right now, he is on the mission to map, build, and inspire a future we want to live in. More specifically, he craves for the future outlooks, concepts, products, defines and runs innovation frameworks to find out what's next and beyond for SAP's vast ecosystem and the future of work. 2017, he was named one out of 100 most innovative minds in Germany as the software visionary. I want to innovate that what we call work out of our lives via an empathetic symbiosis between human ingenuity and machine intelligence, so eloquently said, Martin. I am so glad to have you here on the show. It's absolutely wonderful. It's been a while since we've been together, but how have you been? Hey, I've been growing my hairs. You can see bringing back my instruments from the basement. I don't know, extending my kitchen utensils collection and many other things, you know, writing strategies for SAP as well and some visions. So all that. I believe it. I definitely see that you haven't slowed down a bit, but I want to go even deeper into that, that very question we just had. So you are a futurist, a visionary. You've been doing this for numerous years. First of all, I need to let our listeners know that you and I know each other from ways back now through Kinnernet and we actually have had a lot of fun time in Avalon and in France at Kinnernet and enjoyed some car rides to the airport and many, many other fabulous experiences and shared the stage before all over the place. And so that's first and foremost, but because you've been doing this, this future work, this thinking about the futures, the visions and all this has it given you a little bit of resilience to whether all this crazy shit that the world has seen. So not just the pandemic and COVID, Black Lives Matters, the crazy U.S. election, Belarus, the Brexits, the Putin's, the Shays, the Bolsonaro's and all other, the tumultuous things that we've seen gone on in the last, you know, 12 months or more. How have you weathered? Has it given you resilience or how have you been? Yeah, it's a fantastic question. I've been thinking about it. Yes. I mean, the simple answer is yes, because I believe that's a little bit of my job. If you know, if someone asked me, what's my mission, what am I here for? Besides your occupation, whatever we do, you and I and everybody else listening, it is perhaps the ability that I can use. So I need to make it to my mission, you know, but a little bit of my purpose to build and inspire sort of exactly that resilience, exactly that future belief. And in the end, it is a creative confidence that I, whoever you are and me and you as well, Mark, can create futures. So to have a confidence that we can do that is the first step almost to take any action there, because it's going to hurt. Now, I usually say that the future is an action sport. If it feels, if you're standing on top of the mountain and just going down, you have your bike, you have your, you know, springs working, you have everything, you have like carbon frame, you have everything for, you know, 4,000. You need to be afraid. Otherwise you're not doing it right. If you think, okay, that's going to be fun and cozy. No, it's going to hurt. That's why you're doing it. That's the fun. That's not cozy. So if it feels safe, if you don't feel that friction or the confidence that that friction can be okay, you're not doing the future. You're doing something else. I don't know what that is costing. So even if it looks downhill, it's not. So that gives you the resilience. It must, if I would say no, honestly to you, I have not been doing my job. So I guess that's one way to look at what do you think? I definitely know that you're doing your job and not only do you have that vision of the future, but you applied in your life. And you said it so eloquently. It's really about leaving the comfort zone that you've got it to get into that flow state. And you've got to be a certain amount of fear and anxiety, high alertness to what's coming and where you're going, because you're moving at a different pace. And so you've got to watch for the bumps and the jolts, but you have all the tools at your facility. To act and react on. And so nicely you've got the guitars out of the basement, but I see a nice work life balance. So that, that is something that we'll definitely get into as well. Today in our conversation that for many years, I mean, you've been talking about the humans of new work and the future of work for, for decades now, really, and actually working on the tools and the things for the future. But haven't those two things work and life been kind of moving in opposite directions for many times kind of been polar polar opposites for many of us. Like we're like, I'm living for the weekend. Let's go for the weekend. And then others are like, I don't have a weekend because I'm always working and that, you know, you know, there's the Mondays, there's the Fridays, but they're always kind of pulling against each other. They're never fully aligned. How do you feel about that? And what can you tell us about those two opposites? I mean, I feel, I feel as everybody else, I think, both the sides of what you just said, that's, that's the shorter, but it's a simple everyday answer. However, I have this principle why I think it's okay. Either way, it goes to a little bit to overdrive. I can still be cool. Okay, I'm living only for a weekend. I don't have it. It's still because I, I have this large goal. I guess this utopia, it's a vision. It's a vision. I see this, that imagine this, Mark, and everybody else. Can you just imagine that all the words we have forgotten, I mean, from old school, or the culture. I mean, what some people, most people don't know what it's called when you make butter with it, big, you wouldn't stick training butter. I mean, why, why to carry that with you? You forgot that word, you didn't obviously with, we don't turn butter anymore. And if we use it, 90% of us wouldn't know what it actually means. We just use it because we learned that that is turning money. Okay. Would work. I think goes down in the same history of old words. We don't understand anymore. So, so there will be grand children saying, Mark, what does work mean again? And he would have to explain what a crazy idea it was that we actually had the separation of that time. And I think what we will call it, I don't know. I think we will call it life. Because like living, having a day, having a week, because just being asked is exactly to, to translate this passion. And I think more people will have a vision of what they're doing with a week, with a month, with their lives, maybe who knows. And the, and the passion about it. And when they come out, when they combine this, they will feel that they have a purpose when they execute on that purpose where then they live their lives today. Some parts of that we call work because it's so dedicated to a place which by the way, it was totally screwed up this year. The place. We can talk about that too. At time, which also was totally screwed up all of a sudden is doing the morning and doing your best work because. Well, you can. Nobody knows the meetings in the morning and you won't be in the meeting. I mean, the mix of that, I think reveals my long-term vision of what, what your question proposes here. No, I want to design out the word work out of our lives because life is enough. If that's, if that's a perspective to, to grab on to, I hope people think so. Yeah. I mean, in your quote that I read, you know, I want to innovate what we call work out of our lives via an empathetic symbiosis between human ingenuity and machine intelligence. I mean, it couldn't be better said now here, here's the practical part of that. And I'm going to call you on the carpet. How in the hell do we design it out of our lives? Because it's been decades. We've been stuck in the dark ages or the industrial revolution of this thing called work, punching a clock, you know, 40 hours a week, sometimes 80 hours. A lot of us define our lives by our work. Is there, you know, you don't have to give away the kitchen sink here, but are there some tools and things that, that you're working on that we need to move towards, start to think about as a more of the human experience? Are there tools? Are there different paradigm shifts? What, what are some of the things that you can give us hope for to look towards? I mean, that, that's exactly. Yeah. You're asking the right question because otherwise, if you don't ask the question from that perspective, one could assume that this is impossible. Yeah. But that's utopia. Okay. So we can talk about that as well. I think every utopia has a dootopia preceding it. Things we need to do to make the utopia happen. And obviously on the totally other side, for before dootopia, there was a dystopia. Oh, no, we will just work harder and we will die. Okay. So I don't like that. So I don't work for that vision, the dystopia. I do the dootopia to reach the, to reach the utopia, which is actually that we don't consider some of our doings being working, some of them, something else. So dootopia means finding tools and methodologies. It becomes, you know, like the police says, you know, it's not magic. It's just police work. You have to knock the doors. You have to interview the neighbors. That's not romantic at all. It's just footwork. And I think we forget that I'm not romanticizing anything. And the tools are basically in two classes. I think what I mentioned, when I say they're symbiotic, so empathic symbiosis between machine intelligence, human ingenuity, these are the tools. And if you marry them, work will sort of dissolve, not disappear. That's bullshit. It will dissolve into our lives and we will call it life. We will like it. That will be the vision and the passion that equals purpose. And the tools are roughly said, automation on one side of the stuff that we find, you know, and I've used this word on purpose, subhuman, because it's provoking. And it's should provoke us to think, hmm, if I have my integrity, a self-worth as a human, what would be below me? Do it for yourself first so you don't upset someone or yourself or when you upset yourself, oh, shit, that's actually below me. I'm doing it all the time, but put it down. How usually it's boring, repetitive. It's usually long or so large numbers of mounts and so on. You know what I mean. Can that be automated? If someone said, if you can describe for me what you're doing right now in nine bullets, I can automate it because descriptions are programs. You're basically, you know, executing a computer program. We have machines for that. So automation is a big part of the work that I don't think it belongs to human worthiness or integrity. That's one set of tools. Let's call the machine intelligence or automation in that sense. And then we have the second set of tools that will help us in this marriage of human ingenuity and machine intelligence that dissolves work into our lives and purpose instead. And it is augmentation. And that's if the other one was below you, subhuman. This is above you. This is why I can't do it yet. It's super human. Sub and super. And it's super human in a way where it's hard. It's un-understandable for a human brain. It's out of reach. Me wearing glasses is the best example. This is super human ability. I'm augmented with pyro on glasses. I can, oh, you look good Mark. You know, that, that thing might look better if you take him back off though. I'm squinting a little bit on time. No, but this, this is really important. Google Maps make us do super human things. And since it's so mundane today, we forget what super human can be. It can actually be very, very simple, but it is still magic, technological magic. I appreciate these moments, guys. When you actually could order something to deliver to your neighbor because they are sick in COVID. And you just wait. There's no problem for me. Just go online or you order and it arrives and you knock their door. Hey, I made a stew for you. That's actually something you could have not done just 50 years ago. Or yeah, shorted 15 years ago, you could have not because the richness of that still cannot be contained in anything you can have gathered without leaving the home and still having job. That's super human. It's magic. It arrives at your fingertips. Okay. I'm spinning out of control, but you, you see my point here. Covering the four A's, right? Exactly. That's a little bit like that. Two more to go. So I want them all. I'm going to make it. I see. So, so yeah, you know, we've been working on the four A's. In a way. So the four A's to us are aligned with the augmentation and automation. So there is the automation of routines. Functions. Processes you have in your work. Why do we spend our times in your controlling Erica? We do that work. You and I control and administrate our work. For example, the spots to make it. It's self. You have to sit down and you know, make it happen. Now. Imagine that in conglomerations and entrepreneurs and, and enterprises lives. Many of that time is waste of energy. I mean also energy. into these tasks. We travel around, we meet people, we fly around the globe to make just administration happen. You must be kidding me. An algorithm can do that for you. Sit at home, have a coffee. A simplification, but obviously it makes sense. If you have a big production of, I don't know, on an automotive line, why do you have people running around and checking bolts and screws? No, we have machine vision for that. That's automation. That's simple to understand. And again, once anybody sits down for five minutes, they can write down a couple of things they do per day that I wish I hadn't too. Couldn't that be done automagically? And it can, more of that can. And that's what we work with. That's the first automation. The second way, A, it's a little bit more complex because if this was a little bit like a business operations and processes as a service operations and services, if you order something, if you eat a lot of, I don't know, coconut yogurts because that's your favorite vegan dish in the morning, why don't we know you're out of it and news, new or comics are never go hungry. Also, depending on how you lead your life on Monday, slash, but on Fridays, you really dive into that can of coconut. That should be also automated. So from your experience, that should be also automated. So from your everyday to big enterprise systems. Second A is more on a self-organizing, and by that I mean autonomous. And autonomy is a beautiful world because also touches, or we know autonomy from politics to be or organizations, right? Or free minds, let's put it like that. And I believe that this is more an ecosystem as a service. Today, you and I, to make good business, to fulfill our purpose, to convince others that this is great, business is an adventure, of course. Tag along. I'm on a train on this adventure. You want to tag along on my business? Hey, it's your business, not to, you know how we say, it's none of your business. I mean it almost like this. Dude, now it's your business, you make it, take care of it. It's an ecosystem as a service. This is also hard. I can imagine big companies like PepsiCo, Nestle, and we can go, the big ones, right? How do they know if that lady owning two hectares of coffee plantage in somewhere in Ethiopia? It's probably the best coffee in the world by the way, right? You can just imagine that Ethiopia, high-heeled coffee. Yeah, go for it. A hipster would pay 15 euro down the street here in Berlin, I mean Berlin Falls, by the way, down the street, 15 euro for that espresso. She gets 0.1 euro for that coffee. And most of them, they drink themselves because Nestle doesn't know about her. She doesn't know about Nestle because their algorithms haven't met. I think that autonomy could happen. So she just can focus on making coffee and having a family there, enjoying that. If she gets 15 euro per one kilo and three euro per another kilo, she's still okay with that. She's in the business. She has to see what I'm saying. And they should be in the millions rather in the thousands like today. There shouldn't be only 500 factories or something. There should be 500 million interconnected, autonomous ecosystems of ecosystems speaking to each other only when they need. Otherwise, they just focus on your passion. You do your mango there in Amazonas. That mango is sweet. You do your coffee there. That coffee is unique because that's what you're passionate about. This sitting on the phone forget it. And the same goes for businesses. Why do not parts order themselves when they start to wear out? Why do they not order themselves in a better way because they were not environmentally friendly produced? They were not produced to last and so on. Now the engineering has advanced. Why don't they speak to engineering algorithms? Okay, so that is a little bit of a deep dive in the second day, the autonomy of ecosystem as a service. For me, the autonomy and automation are machine intelligences. This is things that usually humans do less good. Let's put it like that. Machines are better at it. So it helps us and we think that it's boring in the end or maybe just repetitive or just damn hard because it takes time. So that's the first part there. Does it still make sense before we move on? Should we still move on to the other? Absolutely, it makes sense. Yeah, I mean, we'd definitely like to hear about all four A's because there are some fabulous tools or you can just say, I've teased you enough. There's a lot more. Let's make a deep dive in some of my other talks and writings that you have around the world because you actually do this quite a bit. This is your A and O and that could lead to another question. So it's up to you if you wanna answer the last two A's, that's fine or we can even take a deeper dive on the big why, why, okay, yeah, your job as chief designer and SAP and futurist, but that's not why you do it. No. It's not because you get the paycheck. There's a higher why you're doing this or what you're hoping to achieve, whether it's your Simon Sinek's why or your purpose for doing this type of evangelism is much higher. So I'm gonna leave the choice up to you whether we go move on or if you wanna answer the last two A's. That's cool. I will do both by answering them and the reason is this. I think we sometimes I even express it as it's not that the second place is about augmentation, both of them. It's abundance of us if you wish, that's the two A's. We are so plenty. We haven't discovered it yet. So sometimes I even say, maybe if we do it right, if I do the my why right, maybe we can become human at last because we haven't been that yet, not to fully, full extent. And to do that, we need to rediscover, how to say extracted from us sometimes and sometimes added to amplify and augment. These two things come, all of them are A's by the way. And when we do this by glasses or Google maps or by telling me, hey Martin, here comes this situation again, you're going into that budget negotiations for this beloved project to get these parts done like that and more environmentally friendly, whatever. You will lose again because we see a pattern here. Try this, call your mom, call your old body from the last work you had and make a team. These three things together, we have noticed across the last three years following you as a friend, as a digital friend, help you to get different kind of budgets without fighting for it. And you go, really? Yeah, these are patterns the human brain can't see because they are so disconnected really and you cannot see causality see them. Even if you see some patterns that they follow, you cannot be sure if they are causing each other. I tell you to 99% certainty, they do. I want to augment you, amplify you with that knowledge. T, mom, friend, now, okay? Go, because the meeting is one hour and you do it. So this would be one case when I am now augmented to walk into that meeting besides obviously all the information, the papers, the data, that I have to spend the time find because that comes from automation. We just already covered that. That is presented. I have my situational resume in front of me which otherwise takes work, wait, I need that before the meeting that, no, you don't, it's done, it's on front of you. I am automated and augmented and amplified and all these good things to walk into that meeting with a smile. I feel confident. I can focus on why I'm talking about stuff instead of how to say it to convince you. If I do it, I do it in a friendly way. So that's a personal augmentation. I am now ready to work. But there's another augmentation that comes to entities. Can a company or a conglomeration of people of any kind of interest be augmented to their decision-making? So a legal entity, I think they can. I can, you can have a little boardroom augmentation. Guys, I don't know, if there was a flood there and your supplies don't deliver that coffee and that mango as you thought. That's a problem, that's a very tactical problem. It's not a utopian strategic far away. Guys, you need to act and react. Okay, let's do it. And then the system can tell you, hey, guys, these floods will continue. Unfortunately, for a while, they will increase across the next two years. We had one per decade, now we have two per year. Tiny, but they are pulsing. You need to keep these people down there by insuring them with some kind of a green Bitcoin token, whatever, green token. So you buffer that up. If they overproduce, it goes in. If they underproduce, they take out. You can buy that token for it because that's the best suppliers you have. If you don't invest them, they will slowly disappear in bankruptcy. So you understand, that's a strategic decision. How the heck could we have known that in that boardroom? But that systems can't have the newspaper, every scientific report. It is super human in that sense. But the coolness comes in the empathics and biases. That systems understand humans and what we strive for. We don't care about the data in the news. This is the numbers of rain per year. That's stupid numbers, that's information. The system designs that information to become knowledge and gives us the wisdom to take the decision. That's the higher value pyramid there. We take decision, damn, it will cost a little bit. But the green token investment from us to the 100 farmers down there to that patch, system, how much does it give us in the end? First, it gives you a relationship that is stronger. If they fail, they will tell you there will be more honesty in your business. Second, you will have a return on that investment in one and a half year. And by them planting in that soil, the floods will not affect that soil as, yeah, everybody knows that shifts of sand can actually create a desert and so on. Dude, you're killing like seven flies in one swath. Go for it. That's augmentation, the last A for everybody. And I can tell you, if you ask me why this Hollywood dystopia, that there's always man versus a machine. And for me, this English man, it's also a little bit sticking between my ribs. We usually should say human, because man is too close to gender. It's always we rule the world. And if we don't, we fight machines. That's what we do here. Human versus mind. What a stupid idea. How about the opposite? And that's where I formed that these two words, because what would be opposite to man versus mind? It would be empathy instead. We love each other, we need each other. How in a symbiosis, it's not, we really truly need each. Like in biology, not only mechanically, like in biology, why need your juices, you need that. It is a little bit more empathic. Why need these fit, augment me with your feelings. This is what happens. So that's why, that's why I see these four A's. And this, that comes together. I think the outcome of that will be that we will forget what work was. We will just call it being me. So you touched on so many wonderful things. One of them is basically that comes from Lynn Margolis, the symbiosis is a term that she, the symbiotic earth, symbiosis is one that Lynn Margolis came up with in the 70s. And it's really saying that there is no neoliberalism, no neo Darwinism that we're an integrated symbiotic earth. And the other empathy that you discuss is really so vital. We need to make business more humane, technology more humane. You know, there's a first hand, Harris of the Center for Humane Technology and the social dilemma and the things that have been coming out about technology and that. But where I like what you've discussed with this empathy is a lot of the time we hear these stats, these data, see the graphs and the charts and we're like, oh, another graph or another 70% or 80% or 90% statistic or value or percentage that we see. And we're like, oh, okay. But if we put more empathy and connect ourselves to that data, to that value, to tie ourselves into a symbiosis with our earth, what does that graph or chart mean? Then we can also react. If it's just, you know, it's like if you see a tiger or a lion or, you know, a bear, you're like, holy shit, I got to run away. I got to protect myself. I've got to do something. There's an action or I've got to, you know, fight or flight. But if you're presented with another climate or business graph or chart, you're like, oh, another graph, I saw that in last week's meeting. And there's no empathy. There's also no relation. There's no human behind those numbers and data. And I think there's a real easy way, and it sounds like the four A's in the way that you're discussing that is to bring it in and not only make it more understandable and make it more empathetic and humane, but so that we can say, oh, now I know what it means. We're talking specifically about how we can merge this Ethiopian coffee farmer or this mango farmer in the Amazon and bring their data into something that we can really use in a much better system moving forward for humanity. That's kind of what I'm hearing out. And I, you know, hopefully you didn't misconstrue it, but that's really, I loved it. Thank you so much. This is important. And yes, thank you for reflecting that because that's important for me to hear as well. You know, sometimes you just sit there and have your philosophies about how things could be. Someone needs to repeat it to you for one to see if you, at least on the right path, not even speaking about the right goal. And by the way, that's an exercise we all should do which connects me to what you just said, what I heard. This is much more important. It's not only to see and understand the numbers and feel for them and that's the empathy. So see them in the larger or at least different contexts. If you only see these numbers, we lost 200 suppliers or whatever. It becomes a statistical number. That's very, that's data. Data becomes information. Now I informed you. I mean, who the hell wants to be informed? It's so rude. I won't, in the worst case, I can stand to be told. That's okay. But if you're here to inform me, what are you? Military, you know, government official. No, friends don't speak like that to each other. We tell stories and numbers and these things don't tell stories yet. And this is part of the progress I wanna make as well. That plantage there with the mango, with the coffee, whatever you guys do out there. Your numbers go up and down. Your business is like this or that. What's the story behind? And what's the story in front? In a different perspective? For example, human perspective, animal perspective or just different people's, your ecosystem perspective rather than your business perspective, right? You cannot thrive in a business without the ecosystem. No customers, goodbye. They are your ecosystem. Yeah, you get it. But also a bigger story. How does this affect the world? I don't know. We can talk about nuclear power or all these biases we have. For example, nuclear power can kill people. It's a dangerous endeavor. At the same time, this is the best chance we have for a little while to not burn coal and oil and natural gas. That is actually now kicking us in the face. Nuclear power does, but when it does, it's really a strategy. However, it's actually manageable in a way. So there is a bias within the box. There is a bigger story in the scary story that is actually less scary. So I just brought that up because it's so easy and it's so biased. I can just imagine a couple of you listening. No, wait a second. And you would be right. However, I want these numbers to tell a bigger story. And I think human ingenuity, human perspective, human emotions, you being angry and the other one being agreeing with me. That's okay, guys. That's also a story to be told. There are numbers and the bigger, think 100 years. Not the next two years. Think accidents and how it affects the globe and look at coal and then look at other numbers. Don't think politics because then maybe that's your bias. I belong to that camp. And I think machinery, computers and algorithms can help us to tell these stories. And the last thing on that, visualization. We have been really bad in the usability of knowledge if you wish. I need to see pictures. I need to see diagrams with colors that make sense. I want to see comparisons overlapping. I want to see tiny little documentaries about what the numbers are without filmmakers actually to have to sweat over a documentary to tell us a beautiful story. Why can't machines show up pictures that Martin, this is going to happen unless this and this and this, see what I'm saying? That's possible. I can make stories up. They can combine moving pictures and voice to tell us stories. And we react to these stories so much faster than tables of numbers, obviously. So again, bring us knowledge, not data. So we can create wisdom is this ecosystemic thinking between each other. This is why we're doing, this is important as well. So your reflection on my story, I think is exactly giving me the last chunk into that visual, say it, make us feel, make us see. Which is three bullets of my nine bullets of how we create the future. But these are the first one. Say it, drop the data, drop the information, whatever you have. Make me feel around it, which is put it in a context of empathics and biases. Make me see. So I can go, oh, like now I see, you know what, it happens when someone shows you a diagram and you go, never seen it like that because seeing is so much faster than reading in 1000 books and we can continue. That is also important. That's exactly what I do with the sustainable development goals. I show them in a different way than we're used to seeing them. And I think that visual way is so important. We all learn a little bit different. We try to use, some of us use one sense and others use the others and some of us use multiple senses to make understanding of the world. Some are more visual, some are more, they need to hear it, they need to read it somehow. And they're more apt to go with that. You touched on two things that are absolutely vital. So one, our whole purpose with our discussion here today is really to remove bias, to get the bias out and you touched on that. And the other is to start making sense. So we're on this road to the future. It's gonna come whether we want it or not and it's actually futures, you know, it's the futures that we will have and we can talk more about that. But there's this great thing that Kate Rosworth said, the donut economist, so to say, the donut economics super economist that everybody's kind of talking about. She said a lot of the things that we discussed, these graphs, these charts, these things that we mentioned are actually based upon weird societies. Well, you know, what weird society? Well, what that is is an acronym. Weird societies are Western educated, industrialized, rich and democratic societies. And it is here that the most economic research is conducted and thereby it produces a biased response because it's happening in the Western or developed world. It has a real biased response because we're not the biggest chunk of the pie of that graph or base, you know, there's others who in developing are billions compared to us, a small percentage, but yet we're having a humongous influence on how the world is working and running. And so there's one other thing that I kind of really wanted to touch upon what goes into what you said as there's another great writer who writes on climate and society and economics and Charles Eisenstein. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he really talks a lot about, and I really have to thank Paula. We had a discussion about this and how she was kind of enlightened being put it in her own words, but as well as Kate Rosworth came out and said that, you know, when people talk about the environment or climate or the symbiosis that you mentioned or that we're integrally tied to our earth and other species and our planet and these resources, automatically the economists, the capitalists, those people who are the business people, they're like, oh, what, this is getting too isarcheric, it's getting too touchy-filly. I don't know what they're saying or how to understand it. It's almost like they squirm or cringe or they're like, oh, this is going in the wrong direction. But in reality, those resources, the way their business, the way the future will survive is dependent, not on a resource, not putting a number or boxing someone in as, oh, they're the resource. And as when that resource is depleted, we will move to the next resource. They're not resources, but they're relationships. Yes. They're human experiences, relationships, stories and things that you so eloquently just said, but when you talked about the, you know, the bias and the empathy and those things, those are all getting into a new narrative, a new story of how we connect each other and say, no, you're not just a number, you're not just a resource, you're an integral vital part of my business and my life. And so I love the fact that, you know, sometimes it's about that language and you also touched upon that in the beginning as well. So that's a super observation there. And yeah, and thanks for emphasizing it. We should have come back to that and now we did. If you probably remember my two, my one favorite pyramid that I proudly borrowed from someone on Intimate, thank you, someone. You did this on a napkin sketch I found on Google image search, data is in the bottom, data by design or whatever. I translated it, if you design data to something, if you work on it a little bit, if you engineer it forward, it becomes information. Nobody wants to be informed, as I said, but if you present data, sorry, information away, it becomes knowledge. Oh, now I know, now I understand. And that's good stuff, pedagogy and all these things come in there. Storytelling becomes, oh, shit, I know, I know. But then if we start to tell these stories more and can use them, can connect these dots between the stories and it becomes a tool for feeling better or doing better. It doesn't matter, just matter or different. Or for example, tomorrow it becomes wisdom. Wisdom is very abstract, but yeah, you go and apply your own idea of wisdom folks. There is a power pyramid, there are twin systems, okay? And it comes from that stuff I totally made up. So now you can blame me for this one. I've been watching like, yeah, for a couple of decades how people make features, engineer features into new stuff. We have an idea, therefore it must be great. Basically this, that's by us. Hey guys, I have an idea, so probably good. Probably maybe not, you know? Just because you had a feature and engineered this into a product, then you made it possible. That's doing things right. But how do you know if that was the right thing to do? Because features needs to be put in that bag. And that bag is called products and you put it on the market. But this is nothing of that actually really, really matters until you ask the question with that product, which is goes, so features, products, next step. How do you serve it? Is it of a service to anyone out there? And when you serve something to your customers, for example, to a community, you will make them having opinions and emotions about it and whatever. Oh, this was amazing. The latest, whatever gadget and so on, or their latest service. Oh, I always wanted to. Oh, now I can round up my 9.95, the last five cents go to a charity. What a service. I have a relationship to it. And that's the top of pyramid. And this is why I janked it out out of what you said because that's the parallel pyramid. So I've talked about the data before. And my approach to how this pyramid lives is design relationships. Engineer these relationships first, the rest will follow. Usually we start with features because we can, because I'm biased towards features because I'm an engineer and she goes. But how about just sit down and say, what relationships do I want to have? With who? What's my ecosystem? What is the symbiosis we will create? What kind of service could I be off? Or these people to me? What kind of products will enhance or be a vehicle for this? What features would they need to have? Now you're talking. So it's a forward, forward, a little bit like pay forward. We start with relationships. The rest will, I think that's the easy part. We can read a book and we will know how to. How we will invent it. But we need to know not only how to do things right, we need to know what things are the right things to do. And that comes from this relationship. And I think building relationships and having a great imagination. So two business activities we have forgotten. And obviously in my vision work for SAP or future of work, I always ask these things, you know, what relationships are you here for to create and serve to the world? And if you're good to have a good business model that is maybe donut shape around all that, you will make money. Congratulations, man. And the second, where is your imagination department? Who is that? Where is the head of that? Oh, what? And yeah, a little bit like I alluded to. No, wait, what? We need to start that. So we need designers and philosophers in your boardrooms, not only feature makers and, you know, dot counters. So that's a different approach. And that goes a little bit with these biases that we are society that maybe that the form of capital is more capital or resource that we have been used to. And the bias towards that, that is an answer which leads another one hour. If you always think you have an answer, yeah, you will be wrong many, many times. Yeah, many, many times. So having an idea, having a perspective, have a spectrum, this is the general idea that I think we should investigate, that's better because saying neoliberalism is the answer. Well, yeah, sometimes, until it's not and it's, since the world is changing, neoliberalism is not so much. Capitalism, it's not so much. Then it will become less and less right. In the end, it will be very, very wrong. If you still stick to it, everything that follows that will be very wrong. And yeah, you'll get the point. Guys, it's actually that easy. So look for emergence instead of your answer. Looks for complexity instead of something historically correct. Not even equilibrium is correct. Oh, I measured these things and these things. When we do this and this, we have balance in our business. Yes, for now, every weight will be weighted differently. There will be different kinds of things coming on your scale. Complexity prevails. Emergent complexity and evolution prevails. Optimizing is great. Evolution, we screw that up too for you. So be prepared for complexity, emergent complexity and evolution. Planning, great for the next three weeks. Don't plan for five years, man. We saw that collapsing into Soviet era pretty well. We need to learn from that. Guys, be open. Recombine instead of being rational about, this is it. No, remix, man. Be the teacher of your life. Instead of that, you know, let's follow Mozart. That's the score. Follow it. No. Yeah, you see what I'm having. I totally get it. I mean, there are so many crossovers as well. So not only going back because I'm absolutely, I'm a big fan of Lin Margolis and symbiosis and the symbiotic earth. And then you've talked about these ecosystems. Well, they're really about relationships. They're about connecting us to our earth, to the resources they're about. Doesn't mean we're going back to the dark ages. It means that we're having an evolution, use the word evolution. So for humans to have an evolution takes millions to billions of years, except when it's a cultural evolution. Cultural evolution is one that can kind of almost get up to speed on an exponential path or a very quick path for us to evolve in a different way, but it has to do with those relationships, those stories, that ecosystem, that symbiosis and the really emerging message that has been coming out for decades now and it is really coming to a head and it's probably the next century will be, the next topic is really regenerative. So regenerative economies or generative societies or regenerative cities, ecosystems, because we're connecting ourselves as a symbiosis to our ecosystem, to our earth, to others and making those relationships. And now we've got this regenerative culture and society which is on an exponential path to meet the future that the earth needs to live on, to live within the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries. How can a company be a regenerative company? How can they do that? That's a thing, but it involves the things that you all discussed, symbiosis, ecosystem, complexity, systems thinking, remixing. I mean, there's that whole re-imperative, reuse, recycle, repurpose, regenerate on and on that you just keep touching on these, they're not buzzwords anymore, they're the new language of the future of business. It's a regenerative economy, it's a regenerative society so that we will always have that abundance that you discussed. So that we'll always have plenty without being at the cost of someone else or of our safe operating spaces of where we live, our home. That's interesting, not being cost of someone else, you framed it. And what I'm hoping for in the next decade or so, I hope it's gonna take less than a decade but sometimes we're surprised. If you see of yourself of being of the cost for someone else, I can see obviously that that can be true in a short-term perspective. However, in a long-term perspective, we may be our bias to see this wrongly because that would mean that you're not acting in an ecosystem because acting in an ecosystem cannot be a cost because if it is, it's by definition not an ecosystem. You're just draining someone else's ecosystem and that's the difference. Oh, we are cost to the ecosystem. No, if that's true, you're not part of it. Sorry, you're still in your ecosystem. That's cool. Soon as you realize that and connect, it's the rescale remix, regenerate. And I love the book, Unfragile, Unfragility, I forgot the title, Unfragile. Anti-fragile, wasn't it? Anti-fragile, thank you. Yeah, that was a great book. That's a great book because the writer goes in and says, hey, I just couldn't find the word because resilient is good. It means whatever comes my way, I stand up. I have structural integrity, whatever that would mean for a person, for an ecosystem, and so on, to survive these blows. I'm resilient. And I don't think it's enough. It must be a little bit like the super heroes in the Hollywood movies, when they gain energy from someone else's blow, as comes a blow to the face, boom. And she's down on the ground, but it's some kind of a kinetic magic energy from Mars and makes her rise up, doubled it. I mean, wasn't Hulk a little bit like that? The more you piss him off, the stronger he got. Okay, so that's the negative side of the story, but what I'm looking for is the positive anti-fragile, which means if you test us as an ecosystem in a way, we take that data to information, to knowledge, to a wisdom to reapply to a new experience in the future of the service to the same ecosystems. We build in new features to never be surprised by that again, and that's anti-fragile. That's positive fragile, which we don't still don't have a word for. We need to invent one. Anti-fragile is still anti. Anyway, so I like that. And I think ecosystem thinking must be the start of that. You don't belong there if you cost someone something. And again, I'm not stupid. I'm not naive. I understand that we do cost ecosystems and people something and that's a loan. And then we go into a relationship. I promise to pay you back somehow. It could be a business, could be an environmental question, whatever, but it must be this kind of reciprocal thing because we moved from sort of a collectivism, us and them from the whole history of human, getting grownups here on this planet, from hunter-gatherers and so on. This tribe, that tribe, more money, less money, I'm the king, you're not. It's a collective. That's not our collective. That's another collective. That's the peasants and we are the, you know, Louis the, whatever, it's collectivism. That was the thing. And then we went all the way to nationalism and whatever collectivism in some experiments in common. That then blew up in, oh no, let's go the other way, individualism. They are a little barbarism. I am, I am. If you're not, you can't be unless you are with others. The saddest thing that could happen ever to a human being be stranded on earth alone. Here you go. It's all yours now. Have a fun, stupid. No, individuals doesn't work because if you take it to the far end, obviously you're wrong. There must be individuality. I would like to call it human uniqueness, okay? A me, a strong me with integrity. Know yourself, love yourself, be yourself, contribute as only you can. But that is only good. As you did just a couple of dozen of minutes ago, you reflected what I say. We need to be reciprocated by reflection. That's called conversation. That's called relationship building against. So from capital to entrepreneurship which reflects individualism, right? I am the entrepreneur. I have, you don't, so I sell, you buy. That's the economical model of, I don't know how many hundred years. We need to go to inclusion, to ecosystem, reciprocate fulfillment thinking. It's not my individual freedom or whatever kind of socialism would be a total equity for everybody. It's fulfillment. Is this me? Does it fulfill me? If it does, then I'm a stronger member of this community. Therefore, I'm not a cost or a burden. I'm just changing the community by using its resources or the community as a resource. Since I'm a member in it, I automatically give it back because now I am a better me in that community. So that's my circle going around in these inclusions, looking not for capital, but solutions, okay? Not using labor and to distribute as a resource, but to beam it out into an ecosystem, to share it in such a way that we all can be individuals but in an ecosystem, corporation, recombination, evolution and emergence in complex system comes to your mind. And that's scary shit. It's easier to be an entrepreneur say, that's the market, I'm going into market, I'm doing shit, then I'm going out. That's easy. I know it works, but that's not the full story. And we see the effects on that. Both for our economy, our politics and our planet today. And we see their reactions. This is why I believe the cultural change will be exponential. We're just lacking the political means now. The ideas and the words we're using, touching all of that, we need to now be available a little bit of money and such stuff to go with the political tools to change the next decade. And that would be my full circle to talk about ecosystems, our systemic design. I totally agree. So I mean, there's, we've seen, not only in the last decade, but specifically in the last 12 months, this huge dis-ease around the world that our civilization frameworks that we have, whether it doesn't matter whether we're in Europe or in the United States or in Brazil or in Russia, we're in China. They are tending not to work for us anymore. We're feeling much disease and humankind that, and especially during this global pandemic that a lot of the problems have bubbled to the surface. There's been a microscope shown in to show us where the problems in the systems or half systems that exist out there are that need to be fixed or where the problems are, but there's this unrest, this disease that we're like, boy, these frameworks, these policies, they're just not working for us anymore. And so now how do we keep that framework, that plate spinning it up while we transition to maybe regenerative economy and other ecosystem with some of the tools that you discussed? And we don't necessarily need to get into that, but I think that that is, once we can remove the bias and also make sense of that, there's gotta be a new global operating system or a framework for humanity that really works for everyone in the world. And this really leads to two of my hardest questions for you, but I know you're a pro at them because I actually get one of them from you and it is the burning question. It's the burning question, WTF, what's the future? So I want you, you usually ask this question and kind of also answer it, but Martin, what is the future? Yeah, besides being in an action sport, if it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right because then you don't learn. That's one, that's the funny one. However it connects to what you said very quickly. And I understand that you placed this question after your reflection, which is how can we continue spin this positive spiral because there are obstacles in our way. Yeah, and I think the obstacle is the creative confidence for the future we don't have. We have a bias of outsourcing the future. But that's something I have been thinking and working on to tear down. Oh, there's so many aspects to this. One, for example, there is no one future. Future is a plural, which just doesn't have that S in the end. Every time you say future, you mean many. Actually, theoretically, what do you say? Infinite amount. That's what you actually mean, folks, when you listen to this. In the future, ah, you mean all the possible futures because if you say, if you actually use the future in singular, you just outsource that to someone else to define which one of them will happen. And if you didn't, you better have an idea which one it is because then you may be taking actually our accountability to create one. And now I want you to hold it accountable for what you're gonna say about it. In the future, yes, we're listening to see if you just outsource it or you just totally unaware of how futures happen or if you actually have a positive, impactful idea that you will drive as an accountable for that. So that's the first perspective. Futures are ours. They have not happened yet and there are infinite amount of possible variants of them. Which one is yours? To go into this kind of chaotic and pressurized kind of, you know, possibilities and hard work, you need to have confidence to go in there creatively, not afraid. And that creative confidence we are lacking today because we're biased towards outsourcing. First we outsource this to all sorts of myths and gods and religions and authorities of other kind. Any authority, magical or not, okay? Totally made up or not. Kings and countries and nationalities and flags and colors, pick one. The future will be, oh yeah, ask that guy. And it's always a man. It's always, you know, just by default because our patriarchal scientists have been like that mostly in all cultures, almost. Now, then we have brands and yeah, Apple would make the future Google or pick one. Yeah, SAP will create the future. Which is not true. We need to go in with that confidence. I think that's the burning question from this is how I translate, what's the future? That's a question. It cannot be totally answered. But the question is the job to be done to create an idea of what it could be. I mean, we need to guys to start to tell these stories to compare them. That's the discussion, that's relationship building. Confidently enough that going to the crazy, crazy idea that we don't know that we can't figure out together the science of futures. Another thing we did, even without the outsourcing the future to magical, invisible friends of ours and to visible friends that has magical authorities like countries and kings and so on. They are just human as you by the way. Anyway, we started to outsource the future even. So that's the farthest outsourcing to some kind of religious figure. We started to outsource them to our kids. Okay, when I'll die, all of this will be yours. What dad, what of this? It's the forest is on fire, dude. I don't want that. What's wrong with you? This macroeconomical system is eating itself from inside. You really, that's what you're giving to me. Okay, I took the worst examples. There's so beautiful, wonderful things that we have achieved today because of that system and these beliefs and so on. Guys, again, I'm not naive. I'm just saying why it's wrong. That's why it's right because there's some things we always need to change. We outsource them to our kids. So our kids are so aware, have such a relationship to us. You can jump up and slap us in the face and say, no, I don't want. And we've seen that example of that happening as well. Not only Greta, but all the voices out there that come up. So the big circles of future creation, my near future, which is what the agriculture against us, the first future thing. I don't know when future was invented, but the future is an invention. Oh, wait a second. There's the thing after this. Let's call that future. I don't know when it happened. Anthropologists out there help us write to Mark. I really wanted to know. I'm serious, get the debate going. I want you to listen to us and reach out. If you want context, give us. Someday future was created by some guy sitting there looking at his potatoes in the future. Shit, what did I say? And all of a sudden, that was my future. But the kids were, no, that's there. Yes, see what I'm saying? That was another bubble. That's the circles of future was never met. And then they're totally untouchable. The nationality, for example, it's just an abstract. The religion, whatever we can go forever. That was a yet another one. Oh, that's not up to us, honey. Now all these three are blurring. They became possible futures. How can you be confident enough with all your purpose? All your freaking Ica guy walking into that and say, I have confidence enough to start at least unpack that. And maybe I have uniqueness to contribute to that. So I am the authority. However, the strong me that is growing up of this thinking, like Greta Thunberg or whoever is out there actually, and you yourself, you're an ambassador for the SDGs for you and Mark, that's congratulations and thank you for doing that job. And everybody else that listens to you and have the same mission, not only passion and purpose. You guys, you grow up to this strong me. I call it this concept of me. We are leaving authorities becoming our own authorities. This go back to augmentation technology and future of work. Let's not go back to that. However, back to our reciprocal system, the fulfillment ecosystem. You're nothing unless you're good for something. If you're good only for you, good luck having fun. There will be no movies to go to, no books to read about it from other people. See what I'm saying? You are only the reflection of yourself in others. And you only use the right me in the air with capital letters, draw a line like a mirror, drop it like on a hinge. You get a wee very quickly. You need to reflect yourself. And as you do, you can only do it in others. You become a wee. And that is the biggest authority. The individual is working very effectively for us. We have capital. And we can sort of a little bit distribute it, but far from enough. The trickle down didn't work. Sorry, Reagan-Tatcher, screw you. That actually really screws up in the Laura. We have to have a stronger wee that is about fulfillment and solutions. No, it's inclusion, it's co-operation. It's recombination of our many means. Now I'm confident to be strong wee so I can create my own future, but that's useless until I do it with each other's. That's my full sort of a little bit lengthy answer to why I see why we are so afraid of the future. We have the bias of me. We have the bias of unconfidence. We have the bias of magical authorities. You know, magical invisible friends. And we have the bias, what do I matter? And if we start to work on these biases, I think we can move between me and wee symbiosis between the augmentations from machines, we augment machines, machines augment us to a co-operation or co-action infusion. This decade will be very interesting, man. Very interesting. And I just wanna touch, I mean, you said it eloquently, but I wanna highlight a few things. So it is definitely the wee, but what I hear out as well, we're part of this ecosystem that you're discussing. We're part of the integral part, the symbiotic part of that. That's why it is wee. And when we come to that realization, that's not me, it's we and we're in this together that we have much more empowerment to make changes, to do that exponential cultural evolution to reach these futures, very desirable futures as well. And there is a hint and you kind of tickled on it a couple of times that sometimes we feel small or we feel too alone to do it, but that theory has been proven wrong and wrong and wrong over and over again that try sleeping in a room with a mosquito, think about how minuscule and small the coronavirus is, that's smaller than a strand of hair, smaller than a grain of sand, that's smaller than a piece of dust. Yeah, that's had an exponential impact around the world. And there's thousands, numerous millions of other examples where little things together in the wee can have a very huge impact when we realize we're part of this big symbiotic earth, this bigger picture. And so I like how you really frame that. And the last is really we're not passengers on this spaceship earth, we actually can each take a hand on the steering wheel towards those futures and guide how we're gonna get there. And I guess the bigger framework would be is, if you don't have a map of plan or goal or a rough understanding of what the futures are, what the plan is to get there, then you'll never get there because you're just gonna let someone else deliver those futures to you wherever you live. And so grab that steering wheel please, be part of all those, and they're not buzzwords, it's the new language of the regenerative, it's this new language that you are part of that. And my listeners are very lucky because Martin just let the cat out of the bag. He's just put it all on the table on how we can create a better future and futures and get there and put it into a way that only he can say it so eloquently. I do have a couple more questions and then we will wrap it up because we could talk for hours, you know this. I mean, we had, what was it, a three, four hour car ride? Yeah, it was quite long. Most of the way you had to say, shut up, I need to take a nap, I have to work when I get land and because we could talk about forever, not only about the books and the philosophies and the theories, but we like to discuss the future and our both future. For me, it plays a big role in the climate and environment. The future is a big, big part of that. The last three questions I really have are half and half. They've all been for my listeners to kind of give them empowerment and help them on their path in this period of rediscovery, this period of finding the new futures that we're working towards so that whenever we emerge from the pandemic and lockdowns, that we'll actually quickly get this cultural evolution underway to reach these futures. But you often say in a lot of your talks and discussions and it's not, I hope, but it's not just meant for businesses but it's meant for all of us. Why are you relevant in 10 years from now? I had that, yeah, that's fantastic. That's my question and it scales to hell of people and I usually actually say it, I usually speak to audiences or have discussions with business people. That's for sure. However, every business person, she's a human sitting there. And if you, I don't know, try to turn to someone where you're waiting for the bus, they will run from you like they've seen in Ghost if you just turn around. Why are you relevant 10 years from now? That's a horror movie for them. They will not take that bus with you because it's such a deeply investigative, intruding question. It is, right? Especially when I have this follow up because if you can't describe it for me in one sentence, you're just not being relevant 10 years from now. For businesses, this is a little bit milder because you have that time and the community to go there together. Your ecosystem, also your partners, your academia, your customers, for a single person that can be really scary. However, it is still true. I claim it is true. If you cannot even start to unpack that bag of goodies, why are you relevant 10 years from now? It touches who are you? What's your purpose? What's mission are you on right now? Doing the right things, doing them right and in that order, not vice versa running in circles. If you can't do that, you run actually a risk to be handed a future. So for me, that's a practical question. It's like a tool to the theory of you are a future creator. So if you want to get started about this theoretical hypothetical staff that we've been touching on sometimes philosophical and you think, yeah, but what can I do on Monday morning? That's a classic conference from a business moderator question. What can these executives do on Monday morning? I'll tell you, yeah, ask you that question and start answering that. How? Pan and paper. Use your favorite language. I don't care. Dance it, but you need to be able to express it. Write it down, do it. This and start make it easy on yourself. Stop to answer that question with, it is possible that I might think I would guess and such expressions. So because if you think you can answer that question, you're really fooling yourself. Nobody else. There is no answer to that question that will last for the next 10 years. Forget it, because the future is faster than that. It's more exponential. And again, back to complexity. However, put an intention back. This is, and you started, and here's another tool. Start by describing the relationships you will have. And coming back, you see it's coming together, guys. Now we get in practical. Now we're going into a workshop to create futures, which I do so often. You have done it many times as well, Mark. We all have our tools. This is one of mine. Start to ask, what relationships will you have? Oh, if you were to describe relationships, you can at least imagine with whom, right? With your cell phone, you know. Ah, so put these people and entities and things on that paper as well. I don't know, draw them. Is there in a circle, in a triangle? I don't know, are they in your home? It's fun. Do it. However, spend time. And most of this will be biased, because you are and you come from, you extrapolate from who you are. I find some of the things, at least half of them, I suggest this is next tool, you must imagine. So there are things that don't really exist, but could exist in your life, or other people's lives, or actually on this planet, if you wish, you know. Flying cars was an imagination. Although cars exist, there was this 50 extrapolations, 50, no, that's totally crazy. Humans flying, yeah, you get the point. You need to imagine. We call it the third horizon of innovation. And folks, if you think your incremental bettering of everything is all of the innovation, there is your wrong, that's the first horizon. Maybe sometimes it's a backlog, to be honest, in industry terms. Second one is the extrapolation. If we can do this, if we take it a little bit further, we maybe can do that building on this. That's the second horizon. The third one is, as I usually say, if you can extrapolate or forecast to the third horizon, it's by definition, not the third horizon, because then you're still in the second, because you're just extrapolating. Bankers are great with that. I want to, why are you relevant to Nier's from? I want you to imagine the world that it exists in that, and you will play a significant and positive role in that. You, because you are the only me that can do it, the 10 billion living on this planet, Nier's from now. You're the only me that can do that. How will you connect to other me? So you see, use the tools, we have touch-up point in this conversation, and put them together, and I tell you, it will not only be not scary, because that's the first step, that's my mission, guys, have a confidence, it's gonna be so much fun. The things you will say and discover. By the way, if you bring other people into that room while you're doing this, now we start, now we're having fun again. So, that's my, why are you around- That's when you bring the relationship and the ecosystem really into it, and it really, you're so right, it becomes fun. You're amazing, you're the wizard, you know, the wizard of Wiskalski. So I absolutely love how you say that. There are some crazy things there that I almost have to comment on a little bit. Not only is there this third horizon in you so eloquently, and we're talking about masterclasses, we're talking about workshops that takes days, and so this is a lot, you guys are very lucky to get this type of depth and substance, because even in that third horizon, there's a third dimension, and then there's something that Martin and I talk about as well as the slingshot effect, which is the gravitational pull of humanity when we get together and align, that's very similar to the gravitational effect of used by satellites and space adventurers over and over again. So I mean, there's some things that you touched on that are amazing. There's one more comment though. I have a good friend named John P. Strelinky, and we have many good friends that are kind of, we know through future IO, Harold and many others, but John P. Strelinky, he's an author. He lives in Florida. He's been around for a long time. He sells a book every 26 minutes in Germany, at least when we're not in lockdown. The Y cafe, the big five for life jungle and many other greats, but he said something that is very interesting and it reminds me of you, Martin, because you're such a wonderful person and the wisdom that you depart. You didn't answer my question when I said, why do you do it? What's your mission or purpose? But it's because you're passionate about the topic. You love it. You wanna see a better future. You wanna help us deliver those better futures and you know it's the we. That's kind of what I extrapolate out of it. The reason I bring up John P. Strelinky, he said, if you've got the right questions, what's the futures? Are you relevant 10 years from now? If you figured out your why and kind of done some self-discovery of where you wanna go, he says the most important thing is then to find the who, who meaning who has already done that? Who's already living those futures? Who's already in that job or that evangelist or that position or that expert or that author who's already done that? And you are one of those who that I can definitely go to and ask and I would suggest for all my listeners that if you have a passion in a certain area or have a desire to develop or grasp that bigger ecosystem thinking and that symbiosis, find those who's, those people who have been doing it for a while and Martin is definitely there and that leads me to my final questions for you and they're actually for my listeners to kind of empower them and make them better. If there was one message you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that had the power to change their life. What would it be your message? It is as simple as you are right now creating a future. Do you like it? I love it. That's it. That's fine. What should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact? Ah, okay. There's two answers. That's fine. One is if you want to be very tangible and go quickly and make an impact right now look at the problems to be solved. Think like an engineer. Give me problems and be bold when you say that to people and even take out of people's problems out of their, from their shoulders that they will love you for that. So that's one way. Don't take too much though. You know, walking around with other people's monkeys on your shoulders can be a little bit of a burden sometimes. But you get my point. Look for trouble and solve it. Be that kind of a rebel. The second one is if you're an innovator so thinking about futures. I love the explanations that, for me, future is a space, like a mental space, it's a physical space. Vision is a space. If I tell you a story, a narrative, I imagine, hey, can you imagine this Mark? Can I go ahead? That, you have that in your mind because this is how language works. This is why, how wonderful apes we are. We can share that with each other beyond death even by writing books of theater and dances and everything. So the future is a space. And as an inventor as a young innovator consider this good old saying from, what's his name, Gibson? The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed. The future is a space. It's a resource as well. It's like, I don't know, like water distributed. And the simplest way you can do it, talk about it. This could happen in the future. I'm an innovator. I'm young. I have long time to create many desirable futures. I am doing it right now by talking to you. Here's a story I would like to share. By doing that, you share a space and a resource. And that's, that's ecological. That's economy thinking. That's great, dude. Do that as soon as you can. So first be a problem solver even for other people's problems. Then you're doing great. Second, take the opportunity to share that space only in your head. Go around and tell other people because they will find both problems and solutions in that spaces. You will also give them confidence. You have the confidence to imagine that. Now I also do, we share space together. We share that resource future. It's more evenly distributed. That's what you should do. That reminds me of something that Carl Sagan said. It's basically the second part of what you said that we are a way for the cosmos, for the universe to know itself. And I truly kind of, I really agree with what you said and you said it so beautifully. The last question is all I have for you today unless you left something out that you want to tell us but what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you wish you would have known from the start? Oh man, that one, right? I mean, one way to answer the question, nothing. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. Everything I learned was a, yeah, that learning, that evolution, emergence, don't plan. We've been there, right? We just said it before. So that's one way to answer that. However, there is a gut feeling we all have. And this is a little bit of the creative confidence. I'm coming back to that. I wish I knew that it was it when I felt it. Instead of, all the times you guys holding back, especially the young innovators, wherever you come from, there will be a resistance. Make that resistance, make that friction a creative one rather than the destructive friction. I wish I knew that earlier that when I am resisting and I am maybe the destructive friction is because I have a passion. I just haven't uncovered or defined it and put it in the right world. So now I'm the breaking matter. Think about it. If it's friction, if it doesn't feel good, is it creative or is it destructive? Can you affect it? And sometimes, most of the time, and here's the tip, you probably right. You actually could be right, assume that. You could do something good. It's just the bias in people around you that doesn't see it in you yet. You don't see it in you. You're freaking 14. You just went out of some kind of bias, biased girl's school that gives you smashes information or data into your head. You go out and you go, that doesn't feel right. Is it me or is it them? It's probably them. That's what I would leave you with. Thanks so much, Martin. That's all I have unless you wanted to part any other words or wisdom before I tell you goodbye, but I really appreciate your time. It's so good to see you and I hope we can do another cat up very soon. Wonderful, Mark. Thank you for taking me on another car ride, which was like five years ago, three hours with naps and everything. Again, deep naps and so much have happened, but some things never change. And it is the positive, hungry outlook for the many, many possible futures that we would like to be desirable. And this is the journey we're on. Thank you for taking us on that journey again. You're most welcome. Thank you. It's been a sure pleasure and we'll talk to you again soon. Bye-bye. Peace.