 underway and constitutional change of government. President Bola Tinumbu has encouraged members of the economic community of West African states, ECOWAS, to remain committed to ensuring that democracy remains the only form of governance in the sub-region. Speaking in his capacity as the chairman during the opening ceremony of the 64th ordinary session of the ECOWAS authority of state and government, which took place in the state house of Abuja. President Tinumbu asked the leaders to fight for democracy and stand against the constitutional change of government among member states. West African leaders are meeting for talks within the region in a deepening crisis after four countries fell under military rule and will risk going from Sahel Giadi's conflict. Take a listen. On basis of realistic and short transition plan that can deliver democracy and good governance, no alternative. I wish to underscore the fact that we stand against unconstitutional change of government in our sub-region and we will continue to do so. I therefore urge all of us to stand strong and highly committed in the face of any challenge in Syria alone and Guinea-Busev. The message must go down clearly that we will support a democratically elected government, not a constitutional exercise without place of hindrance. Democracy must win if we fight for it and we will definitely fight for democracy. Joining us is a public affairs analyst, Dr. Katchi Ononoju and an expert in human security and conflict management, Dr. Sami Anista. Gentlemen, welcome to Plus Politics. Thank you for having us. Let me start with Dr. Ononoju. Dr. Ononoju, in recent times, democracy has been in recession across the western region of Africa. You have a number of countries... I'm not here from the computer. Hello? We have a number of countries that are falling under the boots of military autocrats. What would you ascribe to be the reasons for this? Well, thank you very much. First and foremost, you need to ask yourself the reasons for the coups. For over 12 years, West Africa has been bedeviled by security problems. And ECOWAS has not been able to do anything. We have had what you call the jihad. Nobody needs jihad between the three in Africa. So the first thing we have seen from the coup is a military alliance between Fokina Faso and Mali and Niger. And the first very concrete achievement of that alliance is the stoppage of the jihad that was in the stoppage. ECOWAS could not do anything to stop the jihad. So if the military alliance stopped that jihad, that ECOWAS could not stop in 12 years, then you should understand that something is wrong. Secondly, the issues about constitutional changes of government which we have seen, a lot of politicians have actually undermined across the Sahel. But some people could just say that the procession people do that. Thirdly, for 400 years, Europeans have been here in Africa and all we've had is a slave trade who had neocolonialism and the French not allowing any peaceful existence of the people in Africa. You've seen the problems in Sudan. The same problem persists in Mali, in Nigeria, and also in Nigeria. So if the people think that if they do good, they will be able to stop the military problem that they've had, then that's a good thing. Of course, those in charge of the jihad across the Sahel are the ones that are complaining that the jihad is in the stoppage. At this juncture it is imperative that I ask you because it does seem like you've given a portraiture as though the coups have helped to solve the jihadist wars or the jihadist insurrections. Because as we speak these countries are still afflicted by the insurrectionists. Number two is that they are also giving the impression as though the Europeans historically have not benefited West Africa, but I wonder they are also feeling the disposition of these new military states. It's not in any way different from the Europeans. They are just changing, changing, they are new comandianists. How would you respond to that? Nobody looks like a military change of government. Nobody likes a military change of government. But you need to understand this. If it takes the change of government for the people to stop the French sustained actions here in West Africa and they do not want the democracy to sustain they do not want us to have control of our countries and then nobody could tell any people how they could go about setting protocols towards freedom. And this is where this is. If it was failed people in the sub-region could try alternative ways to try to set themselves. But don't also forget that Nigeria's elections have not been the very best. President Unipo has not brought the power in a very honest form. If our leaders want who's to be in the past they must be prepared to not only be democratic but to also respect the rule of law. Note when you re-election and then you will not expect people to get angry in a different way. If we change our ways I want to refine everybody to remember what President George Weier said if you want democracy to end to the right thing allow democracy, allow force to count to the right thing don't sit by as echo us while the people would do not know on the mind the security of the sub-region. Okay, Dr. Nenejews, about time about time I went to your colleague Dr. Nenejew Dr. Nenejew Dr. Nenejew, about time we allowed your colleague to also contribute. Dr. Sami some of the assertions of Dr. Nenejew may be contentious but the fact is that democracy is in recession across the west coast of Africa because according to the economics polls conducted not too long ago about two months ago about 64% of West Africans are disillusioned with democracy because they have not seen the tangible developmental strides that they were made to believe that democracy was going to accord them. How would you respond to that? Thank you very much first of all almost to say that the what we call democracy is just another form of government of governance well to them that's what they have accepted but for all Africa the question we begin to ask is has democracy benefited us we must sit down and know is there a way democracy can be modified to improve Africa because as far as the data that are coming out in our economic situation political situation we have not really been able to harvest the dividends of democracy the case study we are looking at in Niger right now is the people saying look we have been under democracy and nothing is working we have been under democracy as slaves so should we continue like the former speaker my call speaker was saying look people have different ways of response nobody want to live under the military rule I don't like the military rule but then something has to be done when you are looking at the data and see how the economic situation the sufferings of Africa it is pointing all to that we need an African solution an African solution might not be the military junters taking over Africa as head of states but I think echoers should begin to discuss on which way forward what kind of democracy should we have all nations developing or developed nations around the world all don't have democracy there is not democracy in Dubai United Arab Emirates most of all the countries in the middle east don't practice they don't have democracy China they have their own kind of democracy if you can call it but these guys are more communist so what you what you if I understood you well what you are espousing now is that a liberal democracy is somewhat organically apocryphal to the needs of Africans you would rather we go for a quasi autocracy like they have a UAE or relative relative democracy as in China is that what you are saying hello Dr Anista okay if we have lost Dr Anista in the time being let me go back to Dr Anuju Dr Anuju yes I am here with you what would be your response to your colleagues assertion that liberal democracy ironically you are one of the best known faces and one of the best known spokespersons of a liberal democratic party in Nigeria and your colleague is saying your colleague is saying all of you politicians that are just you are you know you are putting up a charade of a sort hello that is not what he is saying I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying he is saying that democracy as practiced currently across the sub region the Sahel has not been very honest and it has not favored the people of the region one you need to understand the people of the region would not like to leave the way the Congolese lived and the fascist mumba was killed we cannot stay and we say we have democracy but no the Frank and their ways continue to get awesome West Africa to continue to pay reparations to them or what it is a continuation of the 400 years of colonialism and slavery I think that is wrong since we have done 400 years with the West and it has not worked I don't see anything wrong with us trying to work with the Russians only if African leaders want democracy to work they should be honest they should respect the elections they should respect the vote they should respect the rule of law they should stop rigging they should go back to that suggestion by President George Weyer I believe if we can tell ourselves the truth and stop all the fraudulent intentions that we do to undermine the people's vote as we have seen in contested elections we have to hope that democracy is good democracy is beautiful democracy is still the best from all we know but what he is saying is that our leaders are bothered by democracy and very fraudulent in their implementation of what they say are democracy and so human beings react if the people react by doing coup ask yourself why if we could have backed up what you call the slow motion war across the Sahel in 2023 but why should we have such feelings in Nigeria it is called the first man's head of crisis no it is the same group why should we have such slow motion war by the flannies across West Africa and the leaders do nothing so if the leaders cannot do nothing to stop the slow motion violence by the flannies militia men in Mali they are fighting with the doggun in Mandinka in Pagambia they are fighting with the Mandinka they are fighting with the world of in Nigeria they are killing people in Pagambia in Mambila in Teraba killing in Mali in Nigeria people should not take that doctor Anonijou doctor Anonijou but you know but you know that a lot of other factors beyond liberal democracy are also contributing to this thing you have climatological issues you know the typical example let chat are shrunken in my lifetime let chat are shrunken by about 75% you know that apart from climatological issues we have the issue of population expression Mali Mali and chat have the highest number of female pro-creativity on the face of the earth an average woman in Italy is having about 1.5 1.5 children and yet in France less than 2% 2 children in Mali you have an average woman having 7 to 8 and yet they are having these children in poverty look at the certification in the hall of northern Nigeria and we don't because we seem now to be internationalizing all the faults around democracy is that right you are very wrong if the people in Mali want to have 1,000 children per family and it becomes a problem it is not a reason for people from Mali to enter Nigeria and start doing ethnic cleansing killing people in Cassina killing people in Kogoto that is not a way for them to solve their problems if you cause your problem through overbreeding you solve it yourself don't bring it to Nigeria to kill Nigerians I think that's very very wrong so do not tell me about people and that being a good reason for them to come to Nigeria and kill people don't tell me about people not get analyzing themselves properly and that's to be a reason for them to go to or Mali or Niger to start killing other people to try to take their land why should we have IDPs when we are not at war why should Nigerians be living in IDPs I'll come back to you doc let me try and see if your colleague is back now doctor Anista are you back yes yes I'm actually listening to him I'm actually blown away from his perspective which is actually correct but I'm focusing on the issue that is happening in Niger let me take from the last point that you were talking about look if Ekoa take the wrong step let's take the wrong step if they miscalculate what is happening in Niger right now it's even going to cause a more poetic you know and unbearable problem across West Africa you see Nigeria as a nation has about 7 states bordering Niger if Ekoa intervene with military might into Niger where do you think these displaced people will go all of them will immediately begin to find their ways into Nigeria and that further creates a humanitarian crisis and more people will give that because when people are doing nothing they procreate at least to replace themselves if they die that is one factor you must note but what I'm saying is that Ekoas have to come I was listening to the statement being made by the leaders in Ekoas there are certain things that they are not saying that they are not supposed to say and that is the reason it's becoming a little bit difficult what specifically are some of the things you thought they said that they shouldn't be saying okay what I think is that if you want my behavior towards you to change you change your behavior towards me the negotiation with the junta in Niger has not really taken up smoothly one because when Ekoas wanted to come in they came in as big brother who want to intimidate and just stamp out they first of all said this is what we want you to do and we want you to do this that's not how to go into mediation that's why when they arrived the junta refused them access he didn't want to hear from them because he wanted to accept his negotiation powers now you have been able to he has raised the junta he is stable he is rested he has some things under control and he is telling them look give me 3 years and I will come back to democracy doctor anista doctor anista let me as somebody who caught my intellectual teeth between the 1970s and the 1980s who I think I was in the gambia when the first coup in the gambia happened in 1994 and what I told the people who were jubilating on the street the most celebrated pastor in the gambia pastor Soska 4 and I told him everything that would happen given my experience in Nigeria you know what many of you I guess out of the frustration of the economic I'm coming many of you I guess out of the failure of governance in our sub-region you are now courting the militaricians you are courting them a lot of slack for their act of share opportunism these guys don't love Africa I think you are misinterpreting me I will not allow that to go on I think nobody celebrates EQ not me I stand for mediation and peace never celebrate EQ but what I'm saying is the angle from which echoers we come in for mediation and to restore peace which is actually their job you will not bring the kinetic force first that is not what you present you will come in to bring peace the intention of peace and one thing with coup is that go and check the way it happens the moment a coup has happened the democratic government has exterminated for you to restore it has to be a high play of diplomacy otherwise there must be a plan for an election to take place that we bring in and not a new government which the our stated president can be allowed to contest because for a coup to happen they are saying something is wrong with the process something is wrong with the institution something is wrong with the government and the opportunism and the opportunism of the coupist all the purchase should be rewarded by allowing by allowing and the opportunism of the purchase and the coupist should be rewarded by allowing the purchase to also contest an election where is the one holding the gun abacha type of abacha type of election when we have the right discussion we will have the right process in place to restore if the person ruling us was using the gun against us and we use the gun to chase him out will you say that that was wrong you see there is something there is a difference between statehood and nationhood and that is something you know something many people are failing to interpret Dr Samyanista Dr Samyanista Dr Samyanista Bazoum was democratically elected and ironically and ironically and ironically in the case of Mijie and ironically in the case of Mijie Bazoum was notching them in a progressive economic direction what kind of government was he running Dr Anunu let me go to your colleague Dr Anunu the examples that we see on the canvas are conflicting from the seeming and motive points that I see the two of you gentlemen putting on the table because this thing is not being caught how would you respond to that well my response actually was coming from the actions that echo us that we expect echo us to take not necessarily supporting Bazoum or supporting the junta I am neither for Bazoum nor the junta I am for the Nigerians the Niger people are the ones that are suffering you know when the borders were closed the junta was not is not suffering anything when the electricity is cut off I don't think he is in backness at the state house the people suffering as Nigerians that we are talking about if echo us initiate a military action the collateral damage is going to be Nigerians so we should be talking about Nigerians and the position that echo us should take and how they may be able to go about it and be able to restore peace and good governance to Nigerians that's my concern I am not there for the junta not for Bazoum I guess that's the age old we have to wrap it up but that's been the age old the age old argument against sanctions and from where I am at some point sanctions will come on the table when people come to disrupt what is the what is the legal or constitutional order is almost inevitable sometimes may I say this to you it appears that democracy in Africa have been hijacked by certain interests if the people of Niger have democracy and are being cheated in their democracy for example their uranium how France was priced by France of course we should note the interests that have been in Niger let me give Dr Nanu Jou the opportunity to give his closing opinion how would you want to end this I would have loved hold on I am here now fantastic you are very wrong about Niger there is no democracy in Niger one in Niger households are 54% of the population Bazoum is 21% the foreign is about 6% and the canoes are 5.8% the households have not been allowed access to power in Niger understand this and that's why you saw when Bazoum was imposed upon them they waited for Buhari to leave before they did that coup understand the reason why majority of Nigerians support that coup I don't like coup because coup is anti-democracy but if you allow democracy to sustain I don't think we need any coup anywhere so understand this issue for me if it has taken coups for the state to come together that is Buhari Niger and Mali for them to come together and stop the slow-motion war across Israel then that's a good thing if anyone could not stop that war if they cannot stop the killings across West Africa that's a good thing I really wish we had more time but the truth is that you and I know that the insurrectionists have not been have not been stopped in those countries and it would be delusional to think these militilations would ultimately solve that because they are even negotiating with the insurrectionists as we speak in some of those countries it's been good having you we go on a short break and when we're back we've got more for you thank you for having me