 I'm Alex Macdonald. Welcome. This is the 22nd meeting of the Standards, Procedure and Public Appointments Committee in 2022. Our first agenda item is decision for the committee to take new item four, which is Moe Vemba. Liam is the proposed deputy convener of a proposed group, CPG group, on ice sports. Can I welcome you this morning? Can you give us a flavour of the intentions of the CPG, please? Yes, I can, convener. Good morning to the committee. It's actually a real pleasure to join you this morning to present to you this cross-party group on ice sports. As you pointed out, convener, I am the deputy convener or I am to be the deputy convener. My colleague, the convener David Torrance, unfortunately, is unable to make this meeting and tenders his apologies. The underlying reason for this CPG is that, as you will know, I'm sure, ice sports have seen considerable growth, participation and viewing in Scotland in recent years. So sports such as ice hockey, curling, ice skating are making an ever-increasing contribution to those aims that we've set out in the CPG registration forum, such as within communities, within cohering communities, contributions to individual health and fitness levels, so support in the active Scotland delivery plan and on the local economy. You might also have seen, convener, that it's a very exciting time for Scottish sports. Just by way of example, you'll have seen the recent success in curling. So you will know about the women's team winning medals at the Olympics along with gold, silver and bronze at the world championships and the 2022 silver medal going to the UK men's team. Scottish ice hockey teams have made the elite ice hockey league playoffs last year. At this point, I'll give a quick shout-out to Aberdeen Lynx, in my region, who regularly attract over a thousand people, a thousand spectators, to the beach and continued success and medals in ice skating such as for Lewis Gibson and Lila Fear. However, there can be no doubt that these sports face significant challenges. So, for example, the cost of energy. Now, we know, you will know that that's having an awful impact on so many areas, but significantly on the costs of things like ice rinks and running ice arenas. The challenges for local authorities who principally, though not exclusively, it needs to be said, own these facilities that have their own significant and ever-increasing funding challenges, which lead to them having to make very difficult funding decisions on both opening such facilities and, of course, accessibility to communities in terms of cost and physical facilities. There are obviously the implications of our collective and absolutely critical, let's be under no illusions, drive towards net zero, but these will provide challenges for these facilities. And, of course, finally, the cost to the clubs, to the leagues, to their officers, to the coaches, the equipment of operating and, again, making sure that they are inclusive and accessible. So, all of these, both the positives and the challenges, are set out as the purposes of the group in the registration form. And it is these public goods and these public challenges which make it so clear that it is in the public interest that this CPG come into being. So, we want to start this CPG to celebrate what Scotland has to offer when it comes to iSports, to shine the spotlight on best practice within the different sports, to promote and highlight the impact of clubs and groups on the health and wellbeing of our communities and society, and of course highlight the challenges whilst bringing groups together to seek, agree and promote solutions. And when I say we, I mean it, we have six official MSP members from three parties, so the Parliament's criteria are more than satisfied. We've had expressions of interest from many other MSPs who, perhaps due to other CPG commitments, have not yet been able to sign up as members. We anticipate that further interest will be stimulated after we took the decision to shift the CPG's focus simply from ice hockey to iSports more generally. There's been significant interest from sports bodies, clubs and other stakeholders in this CPG. So, for example, the Dundee Stars, Fife Flyers, Glasgow Clan, Scottish Ice Hockey, the Elite Ice Hockey League, Ice Hockey UK, Sports Scotland, Scottish Curling and the Scottish Ice Rink Association have all signed up. And we have interest from British Ice Skating who we expect to confirm or hope to confirm as members next week. Convenant, there are no other CPGs like this in Parliament, which is incredible when you think about the contributions that have been made, as I listed earlier. So, I asked the Standards Committee to approve this CPG in order that this Parliament can promote, protect and celebrate iSports. I'm happy to take questions from your members. Thank you. That's very kind of Liam. Thank you for that introduction and I'm reassured because one of the things that obviously lept out of the original registration form was a very narrow focus on ice hockey, which I think you've explained that it's now much broader with both the ice rink operator's owners, both local authority and private interested, but also obviously Scottish curling. Members of the committee who would like to kick off with some questions, Edward. Just a question. A lot of what you've talked about this morning is about facilities, built facilities within indoor arenas. When it got colder at winter, there used to be a lot of curling ponds dotted around Scotland, where a lot of young children actually first learned and had experience on ice. Will the cross-party group be looking at the extent of curling ponds across Scotland, their availability and whether there's a way of preserving them? Because at the moment there seems to be an idea that building over them is the way forward. I just wondered if you had a view on that. I do have a view. I think it's a really good point if I may say so because this is a CPG about ice sports and if we start from a position that says the curling ponds are about accessibility for some people to ice sports because facilities are not perhaps as extensive as we might hope, so if curling ponds are offering a way into these sports for people who otherwise wouldn't have that opportunity then obviously that is something that the CPG not only needs to inform itself about but also come to a view on. If the conclusion is, as I think the member is rightly suggesting, that these are a public good, that these are about public accessibility, then quite clearly the CPG's remit would suggest that promotion of ice sports would lead to the promotion of such curling ponds. I just think there's an opportunity there to protect what I believe is a public asset from being lost, which is happening in many communities, especially across the island. I have so the thought for you and that's it, convener. Thank you, Edward. Alexander, can I come see you? Thank you, convener and thank you, Mr Keff, for a very passionate presentation about ice sport. You've identified that there are really good reasons to celebrate, but there are huge challenges for the sector. When it comes to sports councils, lots of local authorities have a level of sport council that is there to try and promote and support individuals progressing through any of those sports, but the biggest challenge that you have is trying to find facilities that they can go to. Many local authorities may now have, as you've identified, not be in a strong financial position. One of the biggest issues that you see is that people have to travel sometimes vast distances to find a facility that they can use to train on a regular basis. Have you had any correspondence negotiation with sport councils themselves as to what they are looking at to try and ensure that the sector of ice sport is given the priority that it does deserve across the country? The question is a very good one because, as I said earlier on, an awful lot of these facilities are owned either by the local authorities, as the member knows well, or perhaps allios. In the current challenging situation, those local authorities, those allios, are having to make some very, very difficult decisions, which will have very wide-ranging impacts. To turn to the substantive question, the CPG has to inform itself at a very early stage, from the likes of the sports bodies, from the likes of the local authorities, to understand quite clearly what those challenges are. Is it purely funding? Is it purely about how those funds are allocated to the local authorities and from the local authorities? Or is there something wider that is going on? Only once we understand that, can we work with those bodies, and perhaps more widely within this Parliament, to understand what the solutions might be. What I would anticipate is the cross-party group very early on conducting that exercise, because I think that the member is absolutely right at the heart of what we are trying to achieve is having the facilities to do it. I go back to the question from Edward Mountain MSP. Only if we look at this in the round to say, have we got enough facilities, are the facilities suitably accessible in all respects that people can have them? That is what the committee needs to understand at a very early stage. I think that is a fantastic question. Thank you very much, Alexander. Collette, can I pass over to you? Yes. Thanks, convener, and good morning, Liam. Thanks for a great presentation. I used to actually work in outdoor education for a charity, and part of that was skiing and snowboarding as well. We used to start off taking young people through the dry slopes, such as Briehead and Edinburgh and whatnot. It progressed more on a developmental scale, but the problem that it had was that, a lot of the times, the snow levels, like it is said, have never changed, and, for instance, Aviemore and whatnot. Obviously, the impact on the climate change and climate emergency and how the snow levels have changed considerably, which has had a huge impact on the developmental part of ski sports. I was just wondering if that is something that users were going to consider in terms of how you actually—I know you as a CPD—can't tackle that, but equally how you can progress on from there. Also, I am keen to see not even ski sports being part of the curriculum for excellence, because there are so many positive outcomes from it. I will leave it at that. I think that that is right. The positive outcomes, I think that the member would agree, would cut across all of the—in terms of the health, in terms of the community, so that is absolutely right. I strongly associate myself with that. In terms of the climate change agenda, again, Collette Stephens and MSP is absolutely right to bring this up, and it is why I mentioned the challenges of net zero, because we are face, slightly take my own personal committee commitments within the Parliament in this, from a knowledge base, and that is something that I do hope to bring to the committee, to the cross-party group. Because we do face the climate emergency, we do face the impacts, and I think that there is an exercise to be done by the CPD, which I think will add value more widely to the parliamentary discussion about what the impacts of the climate emergency are on the facilities that the member describes. Also, I think that we need to wind into that idea about net zero, because all of the facilities, whether it be ski facilities, whether it be indoor arenas, are facing the same challenges, and quite rightly, of the drive to net zero. We have to understand as a CPG and as a Parliament how those changes are going to impact on the ability to put the facilities in place, that, as we established earlier, we also desperately want to see throughout Scotland and to see continue throughout Scotland. Can I say, Mr Kerr, that this is particularly interesting in the cross-party group, because it is making me think that that does not always happen when members come here to seek approval of the cross-party group. Maybe we think about the most obvious ice sports club in Glasgow, which is the Glasgow clan, which I have not been able to go and see yet, which is probably my loss, but ahead of today's meeting, I thought I would just check what they are doing. I see that they have kids for a quid and offers to try and encourage young people to go and watch the sport, as I speak to you at a sport. Anyone who has visited Bodehead cannot help but be infused by the amount of families that go to see that as a spectator sport, a really family-friendly occasion, which has got me thinking, because of this cross-party group, of the link between spectator sports and entertainment and participation. I am just wondering if that is something that the cross-party group might look at, because we are all talking about sporting pathways. The first way that young people are involved is to get them watching a real spectacle, and then they want to go themselves. I am conscious that the aims of the cross-party group talks about access to existing infrastructure and promoting existing clubs. I would imagine that there are geographical inequalities in relation to some of those assets. I was wondering about the relationship between growing the spectator sport and sporting pathways for participation and affordability. I do not expect the answers to that, Mr Kerr, but I was very interested in relation to that connectivity. It has made me think about it, particularly for North Glasgow, where I represent people. I know that there are lots of people who go to watch Glasgow clan, but I have never asked myself the question about what is the sporting pathway for young people, and is that something that the cross-party group might look at? Yes, I think that it is. It is absolutely the right tactic to be taking that down and looking at how we start that journey from communities that perhaps have not been involved in ice sports, or indeed any sport, and how we bring them along and how we channel them through to get all of those benefits, the wider benefits that I talked about in my earlier remarks. What I would encourage you to do, Mr Doris, is to look at something like Aberdeen Lynx website, which is probably the one that I am most experienced in. I used to go and watch Murrayfield Racers way back 30 odd years ago, but I am now watching Aberdeen Lynx. If you were to look on their website, first of all, I reference that they seem to be getting over a thousand spectators to home games already. Just as you say, it is such an exciting sport, but you have got all of those people, families, as you say. It is perhaps more family-friendly spectator experience than perhaps other sports can sometimes be. You have got all those families going in, seeing really exciting sport, but also, as you said, the younger people particularly will be looking at, okay, I fancy trying this. What you will find if you were to go on the Aberdeen Lynx website is opportunities for them to do just that, and not just for the younger people, but also opportunities for those of us who perhaps are not quite so young anymore. Those opportunities to then take your viewing experience and say, this is a really exciting sport, I want to get involved in this, into, okay, now I am going to participate, are huge. Indeed, from my own experience, so I have actually played ice hockey up in Aberdeen, and I can assure you that I was appalling at it and shall not be doing that again, but it was entirely that experience. I have seen something that I thought looked great fun and I have had the opportunity to try it. I think that that is so important, just as the member points out. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. That solved your Christmas present from me, a ticket coming your way. Thank you, Liam. There is existing, of course, the CPG on sport, which on a much higher level, or a broader range of sports, is addressing many of the similar areas that you intend to look at. Have you had discussions with that CPG about your proposals, or is that something that, if recognition were granted, you would undertake to do, just to see whether or not there is any joint research, or to avoid duplication? So we haven't had the discussion yet, but we have done the research, because I think that, convener, your point is exactly right. There is a sport CPG, and I think that they will thank me for saying, I think that their AGM is later today, if members are interested in going along. What we were very careful to do is to work out what their remit is, to ensure that there wasn't a cannibalisation crossover, if that makes sense. What we worked out was that the sport CPG does have, just as you say, much broader remit. It's not specifically focused on the ice sports, so by definition the good work that it's doing is much more unfocused on the ice sports. We think that there is absolutely an opportunity to have this laser focus on ice sports, and particularly the issues concerning them, just as Collette Stevenson brought up rightly earlier on, rather than the more broader scope that the sport CPG is looking at. We absolutely think that those are distinct, but just as you say, convener, very complementary. We certainly will be working or looking to work very closely with them going forward. That's very helpful. I thank you for attending today. We will, in our next agenda item, consider whether or not to give recognition, and in due course the clerks will be in touch with you. Good luck for the rest of November for the moustache, and I understand that there is a giving page that can be identified through your Facebook page, so there's the advert for a good cause. Thank you very much this morning. If we now turn to agenda item 3, which is indeed approval of the proposed CPG, do any of the members have any comments or questions that they would like to ponder with the committee before I formally put the proposal? Can I just make the observation, as I do on every one of these, to say whether it's right or wrong? It's just the number of cross-party groups that exist in the Parliament, and the amount of commitment that MSPs are giving to them all. I always raise concerns that another cross-party group, however worthwhile, will further strain the system. I just think that we need to be careful as MSPs and that's my only comment. A very valid comment and a one rightly made, which is why we have the intention as a committee to visit CPGs after the forthcoming recess, because there are a lot of CPGs that come before us. Indeed, I'm speaking out in turn saying that I had certain levels of concern about this on the basis of the application but found much reassurance from what the proposed deputy convener of that CPG has said about the scope and breadth of it, and actually indeed the need for it. One of the important elements about the transparency of this place is its access to groups that otherwise feel that they can't get to either their MSPs or through their MSPs to the Parliament, but the point well made and as always well noted. I'm content and I'm never going to vote against a cross-party group because I think it's not for me to choose. I just raise concerns from there are more cross-party groups than there are MSPs and it's just the amount of time that it sucks in and it's just a caution. Point well made. Do we have any other comments before? Well then can I formally propose that we grant recognition to the CPG? Excellent, and we are in agreement with that. That concludes the business that will be held in public and I will now move this committee into private.