 Hello everyone welcome to the straight talk from our show. My name is Bruce Wilson the executive director of service render incorporated and Straight talk from on is one of our programs that we have with them among many programs we have with on the service render Incorporated and straight talk just happened to be one of our cable shows You know, we it's basically being straight with yourself and talking to the community members of the community and About what's good, you know information up to they might want to share to people to our audience and important stuff So today I'm here with boy Yang who is also who is the Human Rights Commission Commission Executive director how important is that man? That's an important job. So let's just get started for so first of all I don't know if he was born and raises in here in Vermont, but many people when I look at me say they say Bruce You know, what were you what brought you to Vermont? So were you born born in Vermont? No, I was born in Laos And my family came here in 1980 as refugees my dad had fought in the war in Vietnam and so had assisted the United States in that war and when that war was lost Our family amongst a lot of our people were really abandoned to there And so we had to do this trek across the country and across the river and to tie refugee camps And then we're finally sponsored to come here So that's sort of like the early years of my life And we actually settled in Chicago For a couple years and then we moved to Wisconsin and I pretty much grew up in Minneapolis and That's where I Probably would call my home away from home I'm I kind of think of myself as someone who has many homes and so and many identities to in that sense and so Yeah, so I grew up in Minneapolis and about Six years ago 2015 I met my husband there We had our kids there and he had gone to college out here and wanted to come back to Vermont Just because of how beautiful it was and I was at that point in my career where it made sense to try to do something new and different and so I Was really in for a change. I suppose and boy did I get it. So yeah, so, you know, you know, I'm from Chicago Yeah, I got a reference, you know, yeah Absolutely Well, I'm all the time somebody say what brought you asked me what brought me you from New York? I'm like, oh man Don't steal type me now because New York is around the corner or whatever You know, I like New York, whatever, but you know, why can't I just come from Chicago, right? Why can't I come from Chicago to Vermont, whatever, but also live in our Minneapolis, you know And they got that little model of ten over ten thousand like I'm like Yeah, I really know over ten thousand legs. I think it's more. Yeah, that's what somebody else told me Yeah, I just can't I just can't see it. You know, I mean, I don't see it You know, but there it is. I stay I lived there for like three years and I'm going Valley But yeah, I don't know. So, you know, they can't whom like men. Ha ha, you know, so those are legs I really hung out around, you know, but anyways, um, so what does a Executive director of Human Rights Commission do? Yeah, so the the job is one where I wear many hats Obviously the most obvious is I'm the head of the agency and so the appointing authority So in addition to all the budgeting and administrative work and all and stuff I supervise and the investigations and the investigators who are staff attorneys who are really Investigating the claims of discrimination in the three primary areas, which is housing state government employment and places of public accommodations And I would say that that's probably one of the most important things that we do is enforcement of the anti-discrimination laws in those three areas and A lot of people don't know what places of public accommodations mean But that really means every place that provides goods and services to the general public. Yeah, so that means schools hospitals roads even prison systems and So that it's huge like area. That's almost everything if you think about it except for maybe people's homes, but even we have jurisdiction over housing housing discrimination and so Enforcement is a huge piece and supervising investigating those those investigations I do a fair amount of public education and outreach to along with our director of policy education outreach and During the legislative session. I testified before the legislature in support sometimes and sometimes against or critical Various bills that might come up. Yeah. Wow, so We talked earlier about this, you know Karen Richards your predecessor, right? It was came out to our We actually come to a event at UVM at the day the Senate who is called know your rights And so many students came there to hear she did a PowerPoint presentation and it's about all the things You just said housing and do you think about voting to you do voting? We don't do it We could that could potentially fall within our jurisdiction, but not typically. Yeah and so many in many of you and who was that attended it from UVM Learned a lot and I did too because man, you know anything was like know your rights So we I thought I didn't really know my rights either until she did that presentation talk to us about it So so I just want to you know, thank you Human Rights Commission for For being you know being there to help us get educated you Yeah, and it also like me, you know, so um, where's the anti Discrimination laws, what is what is that? What are they? Yeah? Yeah, so these are the laws that We have state anti-discrimination laws and federal anti-discrimination laws that basically Congress and our legislature here has put into place That says discrimination is prohibited Here's the shape and form that it takes and these are the places where we're not going to permit it, right? So basically you can discriminate however you want within your home Privately who your friends are but for the most part we believe that as a society that is just and moral that there should be no Discrimination and so people's rights to access housing should be free from discrimination and people's rights to access employment should be free from discrimination and People's right to get go to the grocery store or go to a hospital to get services These are all places that we believe should be available and open to everybody Regardless of the race color gender gender identity sexual orientation Disability and so forth and so the anti-discrimination laws pretty much are the laws in place that prohibits Discrimination in all of these areas that are meaningful to our lives so When when you say you help with I guess you help with the policy work, too So how do you how do you help with our policy work? so As you probably know Bruce lots of bills are introduced every year and some of those bills a lot of those bills are probably a very important not every bill is taken up, but The work that I do really is to support the legislature in Clarifying how those bills would have an impact on people of in Vermont particularly people of color people with disabilities lgbtq people Anybody that really would fall within our jurisdiction and so there are many bills like that one of those bills is H3 29 which is a bill that has been introduced that really seeks to change those anti-discrimination laws that I've talked about Yeah, and Is it okay if I explain it a little bit That's one of the things I want to talk to you. Yeah. Yeah, so H3 29 is a bill that does two really important things The first one is the easier part to understand right now when someone has experienced Discrimination they can file a lawsuit under our current state laws within three years or six years depending on their loss Meaning the damage and the harm that it has caused to them most people don't understand Do I have three or six this law changes it so that everybody would have six? It would be a very clear standard That's the easier part to understand about the bill the other part about the bill that is really important Is that it actually seeks to change? the Harassment standard under all of those areas that I talked about and so what is harassment harassment is like a hostile environment That someone Experiences because of their race or gender or gender identity or sexual orientation right now. There is a gap between what we find Morally repugnant and what the courts find Actionable meaning what the courts find would be a legal wrong and so I'll give you an example, right? So is it okay if I use you Bruce as an example? Let's say Bruce you apply for a job and You you're excited. You're ready to start this job And you get in and on the very first day one of your colleagues makes the jokes with you and uses a racial epithet Very wrong very wrong. It makes you so uncomfortable You I don't know how you feel but when when other people experience discrimination It makes me angry when I feel when I've experienced discrimination It saddens me it demoralizes me. It hurts me greatly I think that I would probably go home and like question did I do the right thing? Did I take the right job? Why did this person do this? Was that a joke? Am I being overly sensitive? These are the things that people have colored say to ourselves Yeah, probably even more right and then Let's say nothing happens in a couple months later your boss uses a racial epithet Okay, now that's two months in between these two racial epithet but now you've got these two incidents that have a real serious like impact on your ability to do your job your ability to get up in the morning and like feel good and prepare to do that work and to go to work every day and Then maybe six months later You know people are listening to certain types of music and they're repeating that music at work And then now they're using like let's those racial epithets that are used and they think it's okay to do that And now you've heard it three times you file a lot like you no longer feel comfortable working here Totally morally repugnant most of us would say that is not okay. That is not acceptable You quit because you have no choice like this is no longer a safe place for you to work You quit you file a harassment claim you would probably lose Because the court say that those three incidents in which someone said these things well You didn't lose your pay. You didn't lose your job. You quit and also is this really hostile, right? So the court uses this standard called severe or pervasive. It has to be so severe and Usually like a verbal racial epithet by itself like the n-word. What about that, right exactly? I don't mean nothing, right? Well, I mean it means a lot to all of us it means a lot to society too, but to courts It doesn't necessarily they say you should be able to sort of brush that off and so The standard right now is something has to be so severe They've interpreted it to be so severe or it has to be so pervasive It has to happen so often so frequently and yet they don't set a standard for how often it has to happen this bill seeks to change that and to close the gap between what offends us as a people and What the court has has set as the standard it says no This is the legislature taking a position that what the court has done And what the standard that the court has set for harassment claims needs to change to reflect what really is morally repugnant and this bill would change that standard and Broaden the scope for people to be able to file those claims of discrimination in where we live in employment and at schools and in places of public accommodations all those places that I talked about so this is probably the most important bill in my work of this time and I Think that if our legislature is bold enough that it could get it done and so so what so what does it mean when you say You know this H3 29 is like a finding is the prohibition against discrimination I mean, what does that mean prohibition against discrimination? Yeah, well, it's probably everything you said, but there were prohibition I guess out I'm in with against discrimination can that's what's got me Yeah, yeah so the the bill itself is called an act that seeks to change the prohibitions against discrimination and all that really means is That this is a bill that is going to change the way that we look at our anti-discrimination laws. That's it. Yeah, so so Talk to me a little bit about a explicit bias trainings that that you I think I'm a state of State employees might might have went through with yeah. Yeah, so we do a lot of different types of trainings Implicit bias trainings is one of the types of trainings that we do plus Trainings around microaggressions and bystander intervention We also do trainings around Harassment hostile work that what I just talked about harassment in the workplace both sexual harassment and racial harassment We do trainings around harassment bullying and hazing in schools We do her trainings around housing discrimination and what the fair housing laws are as well. Okay, so So What is up to you this in well first of all through the H3, you know all the things you just talked about through H3 2 9 In some cases. Do you have a lot of cases around? You know, you know, I don't you know Yes, I'm actually do you have a lot of cases that you're working on through discriminations and Individuals who might have worked in their jobs and and quit because somebody might have this Disrespect, you know, yeah Yeah, do you have cases like that? Yeah, we get close to about we're processing up close to like 70 cases a year of discrimination Yeah, and they're across all protected categories and stuff This year has been kind of a funny year because of COVID-19 But prior to that our numbers have been pretty steady. Yeah, so You know, I don't this is probably what something you I don't know if you include it with your objectives but you know You know with the black lives matter and all this in with Floyd, you know death of Floyd and Discriminations around the country So what do you know and so everybody's are hard hiring Equity and inclusion directors not so this is just what do equity and inclusion means to you Yeah, yeah, I mean we both have color here, you know, right? So I'm in Maybe I can I'll answer that question to you. It means to me. But what does it mean to you? Yeah well That's that's a great question because it means a lot of different things to me But it also means different things to different people. I would say that And then I want to respond to the way that we are responding to what happened after George Floyd was murdered too and Hiring different equity and inclusion Directors, but before I do that I just want to say that equity and inclusion in the broadest sense is really about peoples of each individual's ability to truly fulfill their life's calling Regardless of their skin color regardless of their gender orientation Gender identity regardless of their disability and that the ability to sort of fulfill that calling and that promise upon their life Without anybody else saying that they can't do that and that to me is truly equity and inclusion So thinking about like how do we ensure that every person that is born is able to reach their potential is like fairness in school equity and inclusion inclusive like curriculum in schools, but also That a kid who's poor doesn't go to a school that is different from a kid who's rich, right? And equity inclusion also means that when I apply for housing that you don't ask me for additional Documentation than anybody else because you look at me and you think I don't know if I can trust this person to pay the rent Right, that's what equity inclusion means equity inclusion means also that you don't pretend that your housing is not available because you're afraid of Of me or you're afraid of the way that I look Or that I won't take care of your property and equity and inclusion means when I apply for a job that I have the same fair chance for that But it also means like it's not just that simple too. It's also really about The availability of affordable like where is the affordable housing? Do we have that equity inclusion is also about like Do I really have school choice? Right, this isn't just about oh you can go to the school that's located in your neighborhood This is about like if that's not working for me Do I have the same choices as anybody else to go to any other school as well? and Do I go to school and and come out with huge debt? Right so that when even though I'm applying for the job and you're saying you're giving me the same chance The salary that you're paying me isn't enough to pay for that and to make up for years of poverty that I've lived in So equity inclusion is looking at all of those things together now The murder of George Floyd and like I told you earlier I was I Called Minneapolis my home, right? So I like George Floyd was murdered like blocks from where I grew up and where my family still lives And it was an incredibly trying time this year not only because of COVID but because of all the protests and the uprisings that were happening in my neighborhood and Wanting to support that and also seeing this beautiful neighborhood Like go up in flames and sort of all the conflict that you feel when you're seeing all of this and it's both sad and beautiful and like amazing in different ways But sometimes our response to that is superficial our response is let's hire one person To handle this work and the reality is is that it is not the job of any one person certainly Yes, it is everybody's job on On the other hand when it's everybody's job sometimes it's a nobody's job So I love that we are hiring people so that that person is at least charged with gathering people to do this work But I want to talk a little bit about people of color doing this work too, right? Because that's the person of color who heads this agency and I'm the first person of color Awesome. Yeah in the last third like this agents. Yeah, it has been here for 30 years And I'm the first person of color. It's a great burden to Do this work as a person of color too because when you go out there you talked about Karen doing this know your rights training, right? I Would imagine and I love Karen. She's amazing in every way But when I go out there and I do this training and there are people that question Like oh, is it that bad though? You know is discrimination really that bad aren't we just being overly sensitive? Isn't it such a big deal? I imagine that when my predecessors heard that it doesn't have an impact on their personal lives when I hear that I do feel Hurt and harmed by those comments, but I'm also in I'm wearing the hat of educator You gotta be you gotta be you you have to have really thick skin. Yes. You have to stay focused. Yes so I understand you know because It's tough. I understand like somebody talked to me and it looks like me and say that they use words of racism This was happening something. It was a racial. Yeah, I right then automatically I get all warm Fiddle I get all warm. I feel hurt. I mean it didn't happen to me But I understand how you feel and nobody who I know is gonna use word racism if you don't mean if they Don't feel it and mean it. You know me and so so that brings me back to Work still on equity inclusion is that um, you know, I'm a little I'm kind of I'm kind of open, you know, I'm kind of still open on about it because like you said means many things You know and I'm and so for that, you know equity inclusion, you know, okay Thank thank God on high power or whoever it is that um, well, we're hiring equity inclusion Diversity directors and people who teaching cultural competencies and trainings think thanks to whoever doing that But the thing is Now I know it should the cultural competency person directly be a personal color and and nothing and if Well, is it all about cultural competencies all about? People who just look like us, you know, I mean in what they still a lot of people who don't look like us falling to the economically high-risk demographics, you know more than me actually and then we do then we are and so So what is so is equity and inclusion is is it really? Inclusive and then the people who are trained or doing it She's like I said, should they be a person of color because if you came like I was talking about somebody using like you said to me Bruce racism, I'm I'm like Let's go. We might have to go on down on the block some back on the back on In Hennepin County in Minneapolis and kiss on my peeps together I mean because that don't feel good and it comes from the feeling of like for me 400 years of slavery and more You know I'm saying it comes to where I learned civil rights movement and all these things so all those feelings come in my own Things that happen to me. You know me personally stuff that all comes like that And if you're not if you can't feel none of those things, how can you direct our equity inclusion program? How can you even do it? I know some white people are doing. I'm not saying that they I don't know their Curriculum and those are genders are but I don't know and they teach in the school district. I'm thinking but you know, I Don't know what they teach. I got my axe. I'm gonna be sitting in some of those classes to see Yeah, that's some of some advisory boards around there, but so if it's all about People of color equity inclusion You really need to get the training first. You know, how can you really? How can you help? People of color if you don't even can't feel it You got it so you need and then you get your equity inclusion training from somebody Who's a white whatever so just like and I sit on a but I say police fair and partial policing, right? And so, you know, I was I did the tour different stations, you know And my goal wasn't the tax and my fair and partial police. It was like how do you work with the community? So I did these ride-alongs but what what I did go on one police station with the chief or chief And I was talking to me took me to the detective bureau and I just kind of felt funny, and I mean, you know, kind of weird I mean that don't what does that mean, right? And so I just asked him say yo, did you take the fair and partial police training, you know, you know And he said yeah, I said, oh, that's great. How long did it take you? He said about an hour That's about an hour. He said yeah, we did it online You do the fair partial police only line. Oh, no, and most affected people a lot of affected people around police Work is people who look like me and you didn't you didn't have no party company to role play You didn't come I actually who looked like me talked to you about some of the Causing effect or hurts that that happens around You know fair and partial work that you might discriminate against you know Discriminate gives us what you didn't happen in like you got online and a person who probably created online I don't know probably wasn't your person who looked like me, you know, and so that that bothers me You know, that's that bothers me a lot still, you know, and so that's type the same thing How can you learn something, you know or really get better at anything if you don't really work with the people That's affected, right? And so I guess that's a for me with the inclusion they ever had in the world hired him and I'm thinking like maybe they hired him because They say they got somebody doing the work, you know And I know two white people in this count in this county who's doing is doing the work and I'm like this, you know I'm like wondering how the hell you can you ask me a question, you know all the boards and stuff I said I'm with the anti-racism committee. No one asked me nothing You know me it was I don't say I'm I'm not saying that I'm better than nobody because I'm not but I will have some Answers, you know, I mean I can help you with your objectives and your agenda And you know, maybe I can go to a school with you sit down with you people see me they and him, you know They they they feel better. They can you know, they get it, you know, they'll get it better, you know Yeah, and so so the equity inclusion part is, you know, it means many things to me now I'm just gonna talk to you a minute about the carbon 19, right? Yeah Pitiful right God so many people died across the world, you know You know, but my I always gotta, you know my degree in second I was gonna find out what's what's what's some good that seemed to be bad You know, you even though that's the pitiful that's the worst ever You know things been worse than that for in our world, too You know all the type of viruses diseases, too, you know, like you don't even hear nothing about HIV and AIDS anymore And I mean and I guess it's very skewed, you know But anyways, um, and that's a pandemic virus, you know, let's just use that as an example Um, and so for me like COVID-19 what, you know, pitiful is this you still gotta find someone good about it. What did what I think what would happen good about it? And you could you know, I'm just asking this general question And we just can discuss it for a minute is that people had to stay home, right? Couldn't go out to the house had your 14 day here staying house and then they had that law like Stay in your house. I mean, then they say, okay, he's soft and they said, okay You can you can actually walk your dog outside or you can go out get some air You can go to the grocery store to the doctor's office, blah, blah, blah, you know, and wear your mask stay six feet apart. And so But mostly I think people got a chance they looked at TV a lot or listen radio a lot, you know And I think they got a chance to understand the plight of the world, you know They know, oh, yeah, they're looking at this history. I'm discovering. Oh, there's a fall with forage You know, I mean, whatever that but also I'm learning about like Floyd learn about the plight of What black lives matter me learn about other countries and cultures and this is teased that they Didn't know oh the Indians are this oh, does that know, you know that they didn't really know nothing about They get tear times and look at these things and it wasn't no rush to looking because they what else they gonna do They said to listen to it. So I think because of that Convict was just, you know, the worst thing in the world ever but there you got to find what's good about what was it was bad And I think that People want to come out. They want to volunteer more. They want to do more for their neighbor They understood the plight and they they want to help, you know Celebrate a second black lives matter and you know in all kind of different way and they was marching by the thousands Right, you know for a black lives matter and it was more seemed like it was more white people or now Black colored people That was out there. I was like how wonderful was that? so um So I think that what made things a little better, you know, I mean for people who look like us That um people got the understanding of course And then and they got to understand some of the history because they definitely didn't read in our history No, they go right. I know about Columbus history and all those false history stuff You know And they nobody knew about african-american history. They know about You know, what was really amazing about all the uprisings and social media and seeing it this year Was that you're right It it did wake a lot of white people up to not just what black people had been telling them that had been happening for generations But for the first time we saw them getting out there and doing it and they were getting pushed and shoved by the police So it wasn't that they were just reading it and they were like learning about it through their friends But they were actually experiencing some of that violence themselves firsthand for doing nothing but protesting And that to me is important because the way that we really change is not through like These teachings and training that's important, but that's not enough It's through experience and the experience that we take on That are similar to other like marginalized communities people's experience and I want to go back to what you said I don't know how much time we have proofs, but yeah, I want to go back to what you said about Equity and inclusion and education and stuff and this is like a really important point We do enforcement at the hrc and we do education at the hrc And we're working hard to try to change the laws at the hrc But that's not enough like There are some very important things that like we sort of have to To recognize is that there are some basic needs that are not met In various communities and that those needs have to be met. So When i'm fighting for a discrimination free housing in bermaan, it's not enough We have a law that says anybody can go buy anywhere they want to that's not realistic Because not everybody makes the same amount of money not everybody can get this job People are prejudiced against them because of their name before they even get in the door And because of student loans because of poverty because of all of these things They never got into the right schools. They have tons of student loans So like you look at that and they're already so behind So you can put a law in place that says it's sort of like in the 1960s and 70s We passed this law that says oh, by the way, regardless of your race and color, you can now buy anywhere you want. Well Where's the money Where's the money to buy in where anywhere I want like that's not realistic That's not realistic And so like one of the ways that you mitigate housing discrimination in vermont isn't just passing a law This says no more discrimination in vermont and it's not let's teach white landlords not to discriminate That's not enough You need to have more affordable housing in vermont because when there is a More affordable housing and people of color go out there and they look for that housing And they have the competitive edge because they're they don't need to it and someone discriminates against them against them They don't have to take that housing They can go somewhere else and file a complaint against them right now The the housing market is so scarce so low That if I go and apply for housing And that landlord is discriminating against me. Do you think i'm gonna like complain against that law? I need that housing I need that housing for my kid and why that housing is connected to transportation that housing is connected to where I go to school That housing is connected to my kid's school and my job I'm not going to immediately file and even if like I got the housing would I really file right away? No, because I need that housing next year, right? So like we are already at a detriment Right, we have to be looking at equity and inclusion by not just looking at education Because that's what people love to do people go. Let's do a bunch of implicit bias trainings, which I'm all for I'm an educator I'm before that it is not enough. Let's keep enforcing the anti-discrimination laws. That's good too. That is not enough We have to build housing. We have to have inclusive schools Kids cannot live in poverty anymore All of these things have to be happening Simultaneously for there to be true equity and inclusion and then I want to talk a little bit about White people's place in doing this work and people of color's place in doing this work, right on the one hand I do absolutely believe that white people need to teach other white people Right because it's a huge burden on people of color to do this work all the time And like I mentioned earlier like it feels traumatizing sometimes to keep doing teaching and teaching and teaching And people not listening on the one hand I It isn't so much that I look like this and therefore you should choose me But usually this identity is connected to lived experiences. This identity is connected to Typically poverty. This identity is connected to Discrimination this identity is connected to disenfranchisement And this identity is connected to like overcoming barriers those lived experiences are essential To delivering the message in a way that people will get it Like so what like when I teach implicit bias, it isn't this theory I really talk about like this is my experience This is what happened to me when I was walking through this office Someone made an assumption that I wasn't a lawyer but made an assumption that this person who's next to me Who's white was a lawyer. That's what I'm talking about I don't think that White people because of their privilege as white persons in this country Have those experiences to draw from to demonstrate that That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for them to do this work. There is But I think it's also important to recognize where Are our experiences and knowledge base and where does that come from and how do we teach ourselves to And how do we convey that message in a way that is meaningful? Right, how do we engage people about that that is meaningful? So, um Yeah, how do you so how do you think? So it's like, you know, we're we're saying the same things here And um, I think white people should teach white their their peers too By getting the information from a person like you and me first they get trained from my and then they go You know train their peers. Um, so I understand how I'll just go on going to work You know, I mean like how we you know, like if they don't do it the ways that you just described, wherever You know how they can get the corporate competency training and whereas they can train whoever their peers or people at work or the other social services or whatever I know you you work with social services as well, right? Uh, not directly. Yeah so I just you know You know, you know, and I hear a lot of white people, you know Say that um, they really want to help people who look like us. They want they want to do something. They really want to but Personally, I don't want you to do if it's not about the um, um, you know, like Helping out with some funding or programs or for youth and families or whatever Then that's easy to do But if you you know, if you need help to really want to do if you need help to want to do something Social or something like that then you need to talk those don't go out and do it Talk to a person of color first asking what they think they need what they need first. It's like they should do It just can't go on to say and I did this, you know I I took, you know, we did this in the black neighborhood or whatever neighborhood It was a person of color neighborhood and um, but they could use that time for something else If we had if they had to spoke with people like us, you know, I mean because that's that's thing One way that's going to get better is um and You know, this is amazing too. I'm suddenly, you know, we just talking now. It is amazing too. Like, um, like, um And I'm a democrat, you know, you know, you know, I'm you know, I'm I'm You know, that's why I've been pretty much all my life, you know But I look at other candidates to see what they've done for the community and work with youth Could I work? I'm your search provider as well And um, but the last election with the president's like without trump the things he said and did jump in and um, you know, um You know, when you say about I can grab a woman here. I can shoot somebody in the street and you know and All these things he said, you know, I mean storm that storm the capital and when his vice president's in it all this, um And all the things he did, you know bluntly right right in your face. It wasn't like I didn't mean that It was like right in your face Still like half Americans voted for him. How did how did that happen? I mean, how did that thinking come about? I mean, what was what is they didn't think what how did they put they had to put blinds on I mean, how can you tell your our voting president and the president saying can't understand? I can grab any woman by Anywhere is on the part of the body and that's okay Or you know things he and that there's Things that really I think that women should really should really look at I mean and all the abusive things he's done to women and um People of color, you know, he just he just amassed tons of Negatives, you know, and while he was in office to shut this down don't let those people in just you know close that off, you know All right, but before that, how did he even? Get those votes how to eat people? Why did they vote on him? Do you have any answers for that? Yeah, well I mean I I in in some ways this is not the full answer But in some ways I think this is still a very racist and sexist country And have the people vote on them Yeah, absolutely And there's no doubt that some of the people that voted for trump are racist and sexist, right? Let's we're not they're gonna joke about that. I would say all of them because um, right, okay There are people that would say that I would also say that a lot of it is propaganda in that One of the things that um politicians particularly politicians who have a lot of money are able to share this to put out this propaganda Of fear Be afraid of the mexicans be afraid of the blacks be afraid of the asians during covid be afraid of this But don't fear me this rich white billionaire who couldn't care less about you You who is a poor white vermonter nevertheless You should vote for me because you should really be scared of all these other people We spent so much of our time fighting each other Rather than really fighting people like donald trump And that's because they've done a really good job in all of our history And making us point fingers at each other and that is true bruce too not just of poor white people who are fighting us But that's also true of black people and asian americans In this country too is that we sometimes have had a history Where our people have pointed the fingers at each other instead of pointing the finger at Really a system and a group of people particularly rich white people who have put us in these positions Right and so I think if most americans make less than $250,000 a year if most americans got together like We could really change it But instead we spent all this time all this history really fighting each other And I think that's what donald trump was really good at is selling this idea That you should be scared of these mexicans because they're coming here to rape you. That's what he called them And you should be afraid Like you don't want women to have power and that's why we can do whatever we want to them And you should be afraid of black people and etc etc And that sells because it's because it's fear. It's fear induced um So, yeah And fear fear is something that drives a lot of people. Yeah, I know I get it I mean, I get I get what you're saying, but I still kind of like don't get it, you know No, I I mean during days where I'm like, I don't get it either Yeah So, um So, so here's obama, right? He was from chicago not far from out where I was lived in high park. But anyways, um Here's a here's a president who ran for presidents. Yeah They were if I don't know why he even did it. It was the worst time for anybody or as a president three wars We was in a recession And he and he he won but something man you got your hands for you know And so so what did you try to do to revitalize the economy, right and anybody was like, oh, he's you know, um Was to take the money that the a couple of dollars we had in the bank, you know, I mean You know government had the federal government had in the bank and use it to um Build our infrastructure, you know, like do our roads and bridges and get and it's well This will stimulate the system by people getting, you know, having jobs for in me anyway Like in many areas because you need supplies you need how you're gonna make that you need rocks and you need All kind of different things, you know, to build bridges and bridges, you know, and it created a lot of job marketing jobs and you know and um to um Stimulate our system and bring get the money back And I thought that was one of the smartest thing that he could somebody could have thought of You know, I mean just spend the money on our sales man Yeah, you know, I mean investing in Las Vegas or something. I'm gonna spend it on ourselves And um and and enrich ourselves by doing this and um, so they're like, oh god the economy He's he's he's a trillion dollars now. And you know, he's he's spending all the money, you know, he's making I'm like What he calls two of the wars and he had they were already there, you know He calls the recession they everybody was saying these things about a yeah, not to mention that they that he was born in Africa or something something That wasn't even so he you know, he was very Smart, I don't know what he said in this how you talked in the shower with the water running, you know He probably did, you know, Michelle kept him straight too, but um and then but So here's a smart guy then here now um Trump who didn't really want to revitalize because he didn't want to spin out the money I don't know why he how he felt he thought it was his money first of all Thought it was his money, you know our money that we have in the federal government and he didn't really want to spend it But he had to he had to kind of um revitalize the Our states our government, you know by spending money giving money and spending money, right? He he he had to do it, you know, but you know, you know, I hear him nobody say nothing about Oh, our budget is going. You know, uh, what you call it deficit is going to Yeah, nothing zero. It was all right, you know, so, you know, they have it, you know He thought he obviously he took the same idea And used it, you know and just like with uh, obama care He he's done nothing with it. It's the best thing that obama care could people could have done for people who Uh citizens of the united states, you know, I mean and um, and he could it was It it was stupid for him to even try to mess with and he and he nothing he could have done What he nothing he's done with it because he can't it just don't make no sense It's the dumbest thing anybody could do, you know to try to take that away from the people who who need that care Or unless they're gonna die, right die. Yeah, you know, you know, so i'm glad biden won and whatever, but So I don't know we going through some some some interesting times, you know So um, what's some of your measurements, you know before we close the show out and you just get your Final words, what's some of the measurements you feel that you which you're proud of that the human rights commission of um Accomplish, you know me, you know, I mean, you know, what what do you what do you think you're so far, you know Well, you know, who's got the bronze who's got the silver who's got the gold right now. Yeah. Yeah What what do you think what do you think is your like your? You know, you're the best measurements you have right now. Yeah, uh winning Oh, that's a really great question. Um, and I struggle with that that on a regular basis I just want to say that Like i'm not here for the paycheck or for the title. This is really meaningful work to me personally and It matters to me And I take my job very seriously And I'm going to work really hard for this whatever amount of time that this job Is in front of me to do my best to mitigate discrimination And so the ultimate measurement is always has discrimination been reduced But i'm not like I don't have any false hope that all of that was is within my my agency's Authority like I mentioned, I don't have control over about affordable housing or the employment opportunities I only have jurisdiction over preventing discrimination or Uh prohibiting dis enforcing me enforcing the anti-discrimination laws so, um It is my hope in my time That we will put out some really important cases to demonstrate what discrimination looks like It's my hope that will do a fair amount of education. Um, it's my hope that will pass some really good laws During my time to change it the way that we look at discrimination And while today I only talked about h3 29 There are also some really good bills right now around BIPOC land ownership Around reparations around truth and reconciliation and these are all incredibly meaningful bills to me too Uh to try to see what I can do to get these bills passed during my time as an executive director as well Yeah, well, you know, this is those are great topics, you know, yeah That you're gonna be working on and I appreciate I appreciate that the work you're doing, you know, you know That's so important. You know, I mean you gotta you got a lot you got a lot to do a lot going on, you know Wow, it's a lot, you know, so you really gotta I don't know how you what how you put it in order, you know Day by day. Yeah, if you wake up. Yeah, you just do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and she got a good team I do you got a good team. Yeah, and see you are guys. I say why Yes. Yeah, we cover the whole state of vermont. Yeah central level Yeah, so state of vermont, which is gigantic. Yeah So now let me ask you a question because this so if you I don't I can't name no towns, but The thousand the one horse town in vermont, no Whatever town that could be I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta be something not an episode, you know, in the dairy um Do you get any complaints or um From those these people from from like five thousand. Yes Yes And this would you be more like housing or job or discrimination all of those all of those. Yeah, because I mean we get housing all over the state because We have a lot of single landlords in the state of vermont who don't really know what they're doing or know the laws Right and in vermont people rent through word of mouth and it and the truth is is that most land owners And property owners are still white. So if you're renting through word of mouth, you're mostly renting to other white people um And so we're we're getting those claims all over the state of vermont people who also don't understand the laws around disability And reasonable accommodations and needing to accommodate someone who might be in a wheelchair who needs a ramp, right? So we get that all over the state. It doesn't matter the size school cases come also from all over the state um And uh police cases come from all over the state course Yeah Nobody is immune to discrimination in vermont no matter what town how big or how small it is So I said on this uh committee through the wunuski school district called um anti-racism committee and um working with superintendent the principals youth and you know community members And then they had some six we had well we had nine demands. So we got six now. But anyways, um It'd be nice if like, you know, like know your right type deal It'd be nice if you or can come into one of our meetings at the um wunuski school Yeah, talk to these youth about I would love to oh great Yeah, absolutely. That'd be awesome. Yeah, I really appreciate it. I would love to because as we make decisions on um around um anti-racism because they got like, you know, more people color, you know, different, you know Right rfo, you know, uh resource officers how they should be in school these type of things. They should have a they should um all go by Their um culture cultural experience, you know, like me slavery and racial discrimination and stereotypical things people said or done They shouldn't just go about it. They need to have some real facts to be too They need to have the balance that they I want them to have a real make real good decision Yeah about the um laws we're going to change in their school district. You know before they actually um You know, they need to hear both sides of the coin You know, they need to hear more not in books on the court But more information in both sides coin gets but more information about Before they make the decision So I would love to put it up. We'll talk about I love to put you on the agenda and come in and talk to you Yeah, I would love to do that. Yeah, they're gonna love you as well, you know, um, because it's so important Yeah, it really is, you know, because you know, they can get it be angry. You know, I could be like I'm angry about a lot of things like You know, like but anger motivates us and and it's okay And there's such a thing as like righteous anger, you know, which motivates us to do good work. And so I think that's good. Like I'm just gonna tell you what like in um, One hour one one hour black high school teachers resigned And he's the only one and it was he schooled with he resigned and he and he was a racism And he was on our committee, you know So Well, anyway, so, you know, you get how I'm feeling about that. So And so, you know, and I number four demand 40 man is to hire more people of color and here's how it got cut out on us. I mean the high school teachers Right. I think they gave other people coloring like in the middle school in elementary school, but not, you know, not People not like look like me We need to talk about not just hiring more people of color But how do we retain people of color in all of these systems and institutions and in the state of vermont We can bring them in but if they are being harmed while they just start to do the work and start questioning stuff People will just leave One of the things that I know you've been here a long time But one of the things that I struggle with is community, right? Because I'm living like two hours from here and you live here and I may not see you bruce for Months at a time and we we're operating maybe on like doing the same work But isolated here and siloed here and in chicago or minneapolis your community is right there So it's not that discrimination like doesn't happen in minneapolis or chicago Of course it does but your community is right there to back you up here There's like a lack of that kind of community. So if we bring people of color here And you hire only that one person of color and you think your job is done at that school in that little town that you talked about Like that person who is experiencing harm doing this work is then going to Like leave in a year or two And I think we need to be like realistic about Not just hiring but retention as well. That's one of the things we're talking about now in this group So you have anything else you want to add to our show bore? I think we've had a really great discussion I'm honored that you invited me to to to talk today and I'm um You know after all these years, I still feel really excited about doing this work. And so, um, we're just gonna keep that's good keep moving Yeah, I'm glad you're still excited, you know, because you know, like you said, you know You name a lot of different areas that you work within, you know that you do and um A lot, you know, and so, um Thank god, you can just go to those, you know, you can let you down Feel like working on that one. I'm gonna work on this policy change or something Right, right. Yeah, you can work on those instead of Feel better and get back to that Right, so that's that's that's so good about it. But um, so we're gonna invite you Um, um to um to this, you know, that's great. I'll tell you about and um, hopefully you'll come back on the show Uh, I really appreciate you, you know, um, I'm gonna be doing an education series here with um CCTV town meetings a couple coming soon. I hope to bring you back and talk about education around You know, whatever the topics that we can come up with. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show All right. Have a good day. Thank you. All right