 All right, four o'clock. Here we are. The end of packs. Thank you for coming. Thanks, Scott. I'm Rip. We're the host of Geeknides. It's a podcast. If you want to listen to us talk with a lot and spend most of your life on that particular activity of listening to us talk, you can do that. Go to our website. Free MP3 is download listening. Way over a thousand episodes. Ten years of doing this. We've lectured in every pack since 2008. I don't actually recommend doing that. So, sports are games. Yes, they are. So, Geeks say sports. At least historically. It's a little too real here. I know the least about football thing really does happen. Yeah, this happens a lot. There's sort of this revenge of the nerd story. Gamers tend to fall into the nerd geek category. They tend to not be too many jocks at a place like Packs. And there's sort of this ongoing cultural war that happens where it starts in school. The jocks are typically not hanging with the nerdy kids, even today. That's such an 80s kind of thing, I feel. 70s, 80s kind of thing. But it's people who grew up in the 80s are now like us at these conventions today and we carried all that baggage over. I'm mentor at a high school in New York City and I still see that same sort of separation happening. Clicks among the athletic and the non-athletic happening. So this is a real problem. It's a real serious problem. This is Jenny Jardin. She's an amazing person. I love Jenny. She's one of the editors at Boing Boing, which is like a website I've read every day for most of my life at this point. It's shaped Scout pretty directly. Yeah, but if you look at the date of this, it's February 1st, which is the date of the Superb Al. You know the big sports ball tournament? Right. Now this doesn't seem like too bad a thing to say to make fun of people watching the Super Bowl. But imagine if someone said, hey Packs guys, have fun at your convention playing your video games there. It's like, dude, that's not cool. Well if they said, have fun at your convention playing your video games there, that's what I'm doing. I've been saying it in a sarcastic, you know, bullying sort of antagonizing way. It's like, that's not a cool thing to say. You're basically picking on somebody, you know, and you're feeling like it's okay to pick on them because they like sports, but it wouldn't be okay if to pick on someone for the same way if it was comic books or something, right? So really big, important, cool people still are anti-sport in the nerd community and that's a problem, right? Here is John Hodgman, right? Also, this animated GIF did not animate. So that's a problem. What's the GIF? I don't know, it's peanut butter. But you can see, right, John Hodgman had a comedy stick that he's pretty much still does, right? Where he will pretend to know less about sports than he does. He's pretty much making that first, the same joke that you see in the first panel. No, it's true. You might know a lot about sports. You might not follow hockey or football and know the names of players and everything, but don't pretend you don't know what a touchdown is. You have heard of touchdowns of legends. You know that that is the thing that happens when the sportsman takes the ball to the end. Don't act like you don't know what it is. And then using words like sportsman and sports ball, right? So, yeah, haters to the left, right? Should not be hating on sports any more than anyone. You know, you get mad if someone hates on your video games, right? So don't be hating on the sports people either. We just did that lecture at Peck South about bad games. You shouldn't even hit on games, even if it's bad. You should not be hating on anyone's stuff if you don't want them hating on your stuff, right? And sports is no different. It's not special in any way, just because this is cultural legacy of nerds versus jocks. It doesn't mean you have to perpetuate this nonsense war. We are all the same, right? Are we all the same? Well, some people will say sports are fine, but sports culture is a problem, right? That's why nerds are good and jocks are bad, because sports culture is a problem. The hooligans, the fixed grades. These are Russian soccer hooligans, not English ones. I wanted to show that it's a universal deal with soccer. But, yeah, that's bad. This is a very bad thing. You cannot deny that this is awful, right? But does this mean that soccer is awful, right? I mean, we know what the rest of those letters are in the hashtag, okay? You know, we can't be throwing anything at those guys when our culture also has bad parts, too, right? Not everyone, even not everyone at PAX is a magical good person. Only 99.999% of them are. And a lot of you watch movies. Think about famous directors that might have done something bad. You can appreciate the movie or the art of the work and independently dislike the culture or the community or the person. So, conflating the bad culture of sports with sports is kind of disingenuous, but at the same time, we have to recognize that bad culture is bad. Even if we recognize that, you know, this is bad, I don't even want to say the word, right? And we know that sports culture has bad parts. That doesn't mean that sports are bad or that gaming is bad just because the cultures around them have bad parts, right? And of course, there's good parts, right? Our gamer culture, if someone came to us and tried to tell us, games suck because gamer culture is bad, we would use things like this as examples about gamer culture is good, right? Well, sports also has examples of why sports culture is good, right? Does anyone know who this is? Can anyone at all know? Her name's on it, well, yeah. Not from New York. So, this is Katie Moore. She's the wife of Dominic Moore, who's a player on the New York Rangers. He did Seattle. We're going to have a hockey team. They might soon. Yeah, good deal. Good luck. So, Katie Moore died very sadly of an extremely rare liver cancer, right? It was just because it was rare. No one, no doctor knew what to do about it, right? So, her husband started a charity. He was out of New York Rangers. So, of course, he's got plenty of money. He's got lots of attention at Madison Square Garden. And it's a very successful charity. And this is some player, Dominic Moore. He's not even a star player. You've never heard of him, right? But he's raised a ton of money to fight rare cancer. If you add up all the things that all the pro athletes have done and all the teams have done across all sports, right? Even the great child's play, I don't want to put down child's play at all because it's amazing, right? It's not a terribly a drop in the bucket compared to what sports does. If it's a sports ball wave in contests, then sports is winning. Right. So, you know, you can't be trying to, you know, it's the same. That's the point. Is that, you know, in terms of culture, right, both the sports culture and the gaming culture have the negative and the positive and equal amounts, right? We're no different from them. You know, we can't use this difference in culture as a point in the battle of why we're good in their bed, right? Does anyone know what that is? Does anyone recognize that? A nerd will recognize it if they are a baseball nerd. This is a scorecard from a baseball game. Does anyone think this is any different from that? It looks the same to me, I don't know. Right? You know, just you would never think that someone, most people would never think of someone watching a baseball game sitting in the stands cheering as a nerd. But no, that guy sitting at the baseball game on the weekday afternoon is way nerdy or even a lot of the people here. He's tracking stats, he's cross-referencing. He knows what a balk is, right? You can spot him before the umps sees it, right? You know, that one guy will start yelling about something and everyone's like, what is going on here, right? Yeah, but the guys sitting there looking through the program are like, oh, this is the line. This is like they're looking at this pre-game data and trying to match it up with what they know about the game, right? More people play fantasy sports, right, than you could possibly imagine. This game might possibly, the game of fantasy sports as a hall mate is probably more popular and has more money in it than any game that we're playing, right? It's huge. And again, what is the difference between this fantasy sports? Yeah, what's my strepid? And this, what's Spadeff? I think Spatac and Spadeff are related. I don't know, all right? It looks the same to me. I mean, you know, a lot of people, we talk about geeks and nerds and there are weird regional differences about which one is the good one or whatever, but the common definitions of geeks and nerds always come down to something about having a deep well of knowledge in a particular domain or a deep interest in something as opposed to a shallow interest. You can argue about, you know, the semantics and everything, but I think someone who didn't baseball enough to track the stats of the players and then play a fantasy game about those stats is no different than someone playing Warhammer. Right, you know, there's really, you know, people who play football manager and people who play Pokemon have a lot more in common than you would normally believe. Yeah, they don't get along. And of course, here's your local friend, the Seahulk. What difference is there between him showing his passion for a thing he cares about by dressing up and, you know, some game, a comic convention somewhere, some guy showing a passion for a thing he cares about by dressing up, right? You know, you can actually have a lot of fun complimenting guys who are going to sports. Well, people are going to sporting events on their cosplays. Right, so yeah, sports fans are geeks too. Stop the war. Okay, I think we're done with the Stop the War. So let's talk about what sports are. So what is a sport? What is the definition of sport? Because I don't want to, what a tic-tac-toe is a sport, what is it? Something that happens a lot is people who are anti-sport, right? People who are against sports or in particular sport will say, that's not a sport, right? X is no good. It's not a sport. It's not a real sport, right? Same thing happening with games. Remember, I've gone home, fantastic game, got the tag I'm seeing from the community, not a game, even though it's clearly a game. This is called, if you haven't heard of it, the logical fallacy of no true Scotsman, which is why Billy's up there. No true Scotsman would dress like that and act like that. Well, actually, the only thing that's required to be a Scotsman is being born in Scotland. If you're born in Scotland, then you're Scotsman. What if I'm born two Scots who no longer live in Scotland? Probably still a Scotsman. Alright, so what's the exact line? What am I no longer a Scotsman? You know, this sounds like a fast way to... The point is that being a Scotsman or not has nothing to do with whether you eat haggis or not, right? There's a definition for things, and if you meet the definition, then you are the thing, and if you don't meet the definition, you're not not a thing, right? But at the same time, the people who like to argue about definitions usually are only arguing about them to exclude the things they don't like. They're not doing it to have an academic discussion about Pluto. They're doing it because they really hate Pluto. Right, they hate Pluto. They want to exclude Pluto because of their personal taste. So they're going to, and because they can't have a real argument, because it's, right, there's nothing, there's no actual point they have to make other than they don't like it and that doesn't fly. They go and they swerve over to make a semantic argument, right? That's not a X. It's not good. I don't like it. Just say, if there's something you don't like, instead of saying it's not a game, it's not a sport, just say the truth. I don't respect that thing. I don't like that thing. I don't enjoy that thing. I don't want to put that on the same level as this other thing, but I like more. Just say those things instead, be honest, and make other people do the same thing too, and they'll realize, right? So, what is a sport? We're going to play a game. Yeah, a real game. You guys are going to participate. Sport or not. So, you all know the definition of the word sports. We're going to assume that we all are on the exact same page. So if you think each of these things is a sport, raise your hand, and we're going to go down the list, keep track, and then we're going to go over this at the end. We're going to go over the answers at the end, okay? The audience at home is not getting this. We'll see what, keep your score like in your head or on a piece of paper or something. Ooh, these people are just in time to play sport or not. All right. Ready? Sport or not? Baseball. Sports or not? Does anyone think it's not a sport? Anyway. Okay. Okay, good. All right, next one. It's going to get harder, trust me. Okay. Settlers of Catan. Sport or not? Anyone? All right. Those guys think it's a sport. All right, we got to keep you getting a sport? Okay. Some people think Settlers of Catan is a sport, okay? I thought this was easy. Chess. Sport or not? Wow, there are people who thought chess was a sport and did not think Settlers was a sport. That's very interesting. That is fascinating. It's all hell. Wow. Okay. Okay. Is chess boxing a sport? No, it is a real thing. Okay. For people who don't know about chess boxing, the way it works is you play chess and then you box and then you play chess and then you box and you have to do well at chess and you have to do well at the box. And that's how it works. No, maybe you maybe... It's much harder to do the chess after the boxing has happened a few times. There are strategies that involve making garbage moves to delay the game and just pummeling the hell out of the opponent. Right. And the reason they're like why... What's the point of that? It's because when you're in a boxing ring, people could yell out chess moves at you. Now that could happen in boxing too. Hit him with your fist. Yeah. Good luck. Okay. So chess boxing, people seem to think chess boxing is a sport. Okay, cool. Formula 1, Formula 1 racing, you're in a car, the car is doing most of the work. Is it a sport? Is it a sport? Surprising spread even on this one. Yeah, very surprising. This is a real... I'm glad I made this. Yeah. Cool. All right. Jenga. Whoa, no one thinks Jenga is a sport. Some people do. Not that many though. Jenga. All right. Street fighter. Street fighter. If you need me to be specific, street fighter 2, championship edition. Yeah. Right? Is it a sport? Okay. Yoga. Is yoga a sport? Yoga. There's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of confusion because there's a lot of... And you're coming up and down. It's yoga. You know, the stretching and the, you know, the exercising. Like all this stuff. Yeah. Like Dalzim there. Is that a sport? Okay. Yeah, you're not very... I'm not. You're not very stretchy at all. Okay. Ooh, the meds came just started. How convenient. And they lost. Professional wrestling. There's a lot of different wrestling we're talking about, you know... Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant. Yeah. Like I said, dates us already. Pretty, pretty thickly. Yeah. You know, the triple H's and the rocks and whatnot. Right? Is that a sport? People, some guy thinks it is. Yeah. All right. All right. We'll keep going. We're almost at the end. We're almost done. There's not too many of these who aren't going to do this for all day, right? Okay. Synchronized swimming. This is the number one thing that people say is not a sport. When you watch the Olympics, people are like, that's not a sport that's synchronized swimming. Yeah. You want to see an Olympic sport that's not a sport? That's race walking. They want to see the running and the jumping, right? And they're like, that's synchronized swimming isn't a sport, right? Some people will even say the figure skating isn't a sport and things like that, right? Are they right? Maybe they're right. They'll find out really soon. We're coming to the end. Poker. This is on TV. So in fact, it's on ESPN. It's on ESPN. Is it a sport? Well, I said ESPN and like six more hands went up. I know, right? This is, you can watch poker on ESPN. You watch billiards on ESPN. You can watch all kinds of things that some people may or may not think is a sport on a sports TV network. Is that enough to make it a sport? Simply being on a particular TV channel. Maybe. Martin's favorite, the marching band. I was real serious into marching band. I thought about, and I'm not lying, making a career out of marching band. He wisely chose technology instead. Very wisely. Is marching band a sport? Rin thinks so. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I raised my hand. Is somebody else trying to be polite? They're just trying to cheat, right? Whoa. They're just like reading the answers. Yeah. It's cheating at tests by reading on the people who know the answer is a sport. We don't know. All right. Answer time. All right, let's go through. Before we tell you the answers, we're going to tell you the definition of sport, which probably makes you realize whether your score is going to be in advance, and then we'll review the answers. So there's a lot of definitions of sport, like, oh, jolly old good sport, eh, right? Yeah. We're not talking about those definitions. Having a sporting time. The only definition of sport that matters is the first definition of sport in the dictionary. Which dictionary? Which is the real dictionary, which is as follows. Sport. An athletic activity, requiring skill or physical prowess. And often of a competitive nature, such as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, et cetera. So we got some examples. So we're pretty sure we know the baseball one, but you guys knew that one already, right? Yeah. Now the problem with these definitions is like when you do the same thing with game. Like what's the definition of game, and game is a million different definitions. And right now a whole bunch of nerds want to argue about whether or not the word often there is a deal breaker for the whole rest of this panel. You can throw that word often right up your pedantic butthole. You are an insufferable pedant. And while it is terrible. Don't argue with me about the definition of athletic, which we're going to talk about in two seconds. So an insufferable pedant is the one who will derail a constructive conversation with a semantic argument that's irrelevant. Richard Garfield is what characteristics of games made a definition of game to be used in these situations. And when someone asked him, hey, but that doesn't cover everything. He said, yeah, it doesn't. And just don't worry about it. Right. So what we're really talking about here, what is a sport? It's an athletic activity. Athletic means that you are using a part of your body. Like my brain? That is not your brain. Okay. Right. You're using some muscle that is not your brain. And your skill or prowess in using that muscle contributes to the winning or losing of the competitive activity. Now what is a competitive activity? You're trying to win or lose. You're comparing yourself against other person in some kind of ortho game. So to avoid doesn't have to be an ortho game. Rem just likes to talk about ortho games. Well, it's a really useful word to avoid. Like, we're not talking about games like on home here. We're talking about competitive games. And Richard Garfield made up a word from the chess community, like ortho chess, ortho game, to give us a word we could use so that we can say, yeah, we're talking about games we were competing with other people without insufferable pedants derailing the conversation. So a competition, two or more players agreed upon rules and a method of ranking those players. So the question is, does athletic skill or prowess matter for determining the victory? And that is what makes something a sport or not. So here's our answers. Baseball is a sport. Yes, you got to hit that ball. Absolutely. You have to swing your arm really hard and fast. You have to track the ball with your eyes, not the brain. And don't come at me with that, oh, but everything is controlled by the brain business. That's the insufferable pedants way. Yeah. The brain is burning calories, though. You got to use some muscle that's not the brain is involved. Brain's not a muscle. Yeah, I'd get a deal with it. Okay. It's the fun of the nerves, whatever. All right. So biology doesn't factor into this panel. This is about games. Baseball is definitely a sport. Settlers of Catan is not a sport. Right? Yes, you need to possibly use your muscles to play settlers. You might have to move the robber, but it's not like how you can play it without having any muscles. You can have someone else move the piece for you. You can't play the piece better. Right? I can't slam the robber down harder to steal more resources. Right? If I can't roll the dice harder to get the resource I want. So if you telling someone what to do is functionally indistinguishable from them doing it, then it is not an athletic task at that point. At the same goes for chess. It doesn't matter how hard you knock the king off the board when you're angry because you finally beat that opponent you could never beat. Right? You can play chess without using any muscles on your body other than your brain. Right? You can talk, but it's how you talk doesn't matter as long as you say the right thing. Yeah. Chess boxing is a sport. In fact, the boxing is way more important than the chess, if you didn't figure that out already. Who's better at chess boxing? Kasparov or Muhammad Ali? Guess what? It's not Kasparov. Okay? Kasparov like makes a few good moves and then the boxing starts and then it's over. And again with the headphones, like they wear the headphones so no one can tell them what to do because they can't do it better in the chess part by moving, but in the boxing part telling them what to do doesn't help them. So they have to wear the headphones when they're doing the chess and they wear the helmet when they're doing the boxing. Right? Because the boxing is part of it, the whole thing becomes a sport, right? Formula One is a sport too. Yeah, okay, sure. The car does do most of the work. You try driving a Formula One car. That is hard as hell. You'll probably just die. If you can even get the car to move. I sat in a simulator that skipped the move, you hit a button, it launched, and then you're on a track. It was kind of realistic. I immediately died. In the first turn, right in the wall. The strain on your body in a Formula One race, the G-forces you have to withstand, the endurance, the lungs, keeping cool, keeping your focus, the reactions of turning really quickly, especially if anyone is driving near you, it is intense. It's probably more physically demanding than playing baseball easily. There's that thing with Schumacher where they had telemetry and they're showing you on TV where he put the pedals and what he was doing with the steering wheel. And it was just like this, the whole time. Those guys basically, when they're not training and practicing, because they're only allowed to practice drive racing for so many hours. There's rules and limits on how much you can test the cars and things. They're working out. Because if they don't work out, they've got to lose weight to stay light so the car goes faster. It is big time sport. If you ever do go-cars, real go-cars, like 40-mph, like 40-mph go-cars, you might get sick. You might get tired. You might hurt yourself. Right. Okay. Jenga's a sport. It matters. You've got to be, you know, even though you're only using a few muscles, you're still using them and your skill and prowess at using those muscles contributes to whether you win or lose. Right. How good can you move your hand so precisely and so carefully so as not to tumble this tower? Right. Can you do this physical thing with your arm and your fingers? Are you capable? Right. It's not just, you can't just choose choosing the right piece. If all you had to do was choose the right piece and it magically moved the sport, but the fact that you have to physically do this with your arm and hands brings Jenga into the sport category. That's also why if you use the gun or a physical implement to move the pieces out of the way, that's just cheating. That's correct. Okay. Street Fighter likewise is a sport. Right? Okay. You might be thinking, oh, you know, you're just pushing buttons. You don't actually have to know. You have to, I can't even do a sure you can half the time. Why? Because my hands are slow and dirty. This is great. Now if Street Fighter were turn-based, like I throw a sure you can and then Scott steps back and then I react to that, then it wouldn't be a sport anymore. Right? The fact that you have to go fast and that you have to use your hands and move them precisely and quickly and accurately is what brings Street Fighter from not sports into sports. Yoga is a sport sometimes. Sometimes. Most yoga you think about and probably most yoga in the world is just exercise. There's no competition. There's no winning or anything like that. And so even though it's plenty athletic, right, there's no real decisions or winners and losers so it's not a sport and you would be correct. However, there is a such thing as competitive yoga that you didn't know about and I didn't know about either until very recently. Can you hold the forms? Can you make the correct forms? Competitive style points. You have judges, expert judges deciding how well you execute a certain move. It's a very real thing. It's no different than figure skating, right? They're required to do like a triple axle. A guy did a yoga pretzel or whatever and a 5.0 on the thing, right? And that competitive yoga is a sport. Most other yoga is just exercise. Like jogging in the park is not a sport but running in a 5K and likewise professional wrestling is really not much different than yoga, right? The non-sport yoga, right? You are doing plenty of physical activity, plenty of athleticness is on display but there's no competition. It's just a drama playing out. It's like going to the circus. These artists are amazingly athletic and skilled and talented. We love to watch them. They're entertaining. Same thing with professional wrestling. We love to watch it. It's entertaining. The people doing it are talented and doing all these mating and a lot of things but they're not competing in a competition. I hope I'm not ruining this for anybody. I was about to say I would love to see competitive trapeze. Competitive trapeze would be incredible. They could do it the same way as the competitive yoga, right? You do some trapeze. 5.0. I was thinking more like there's five trapeze and five people and there's only four. That's not true. There's a net. There's clearly a net. What's wrong with you? Okay. Okay, so synchronized swimming if you didn't figure out is indeed a sport, right? It's basically exactly what I just described, right? They do this physical thing. I'll see you turn upside under the pool and spin around. Good luck. And then they get a score. 5.0. Now, people think those sports like the figure skating and the synchronized swimming where they get the scores is subjective. And the fact that it's subjective makes it not a sport. That's because people don't know where those scores come from, right? Those scores are actually not subjective at all. The judges have a very specific scoresheet that they go down with objective measurements. They did the person execute this move. You know, gymnastics, same thing. Did they land? How much did their knees bend when they landed? All these very, very specific objective things are what create the scores, right? It's not some, I like that one better, right? That's not how it is. But the thing is, why then, if it's not subjective, do the judges have different scores? Because it's hard to watch someone who's doing this amazing thing really quickly and notice every little detail. That's why you have a whole bunch of judges and you add all the scores together. Also, some judges are from Russia or China or whatever, and they're going to take away a point from the Americans and then we get them back in the end, right? You know, that's how it goes. So yeah, all those things are sports. Poker, if you didn't figure out, not a sports, right? The physical activity in poker. I mean, maybe someone's going to come at me now and be like, oh, you got to keep your face still or something. Oh, those guys are wearing sunglasses. I don't even know why they allow that. That can't be legal. They should have played making. Yeah, that'd be good. Ball too, shape your head. You can't have hair in front of your face either. But yeah, that does not suddenly make it a sport. I mean, chess has a clock that means you have to play a little quickly, right? That doesn't make it a sport. But even then, the skill of getting to that timer in back, I mean, if you're paralyzed or something like someone else could do that part for you, you just input your moves. The part that matters is your thinking. Did you think quickly, not did you move your arm quickly? And of course, if you didn't figure it out, marching band is a sport. Totally a sport. I did competitive marching band for many, many years and much like synchronized swimming and all these other things, there are judges who have very specific rubrics. There is some subjective component like one-tenth of the score will be for executioner style or choreography or whatever. But then there's other ones like where people in step, where the tube is in the right place, was like the synchronicity of the two sides of the band, okay? Where the marching, the drum major is like in perfect form, all that stuff. It's a mostly objective or at least semi-objective skill rubric. Now, you're probably thinking the marching band becomes a sport because of the marching. But how is the band not a sport as well? Playing a musical instrument requires your lungs, your fingers moving accurately and precisely. Well, here, well, I wasn't playing a clarinet or piano any different than street fighter. Yeah. What am I doing right now? Am I playing Rachmaninoff or am I playing some sort of MOBA? I don't know. What's the APM on Rachmaninoff's second? So a battle of the bands at your local pub, that could be considered sport. In fact, I would consider it sport, as long as you're actually playing physical instruments and not doing something. Even singing could be considered a sport. You're working out this muscle right here. Only competitive singing, though, yet again. They have to be competitive singing, right? Some battle of the band situation. All right, so we're done playing sport or not. Anyone get a perfect score? Didn't think so. Okay, I did. Yeah, me. All right. So gamers do like sports, because a whole bunch of the things on there were actually sports that you didn't think of as sports. And you liked them, like the street fighters and the Jengas and those things. They also like holding the bar, apparently. Where'd you get this picture? I just searched for like gamers as DDR and it came up with Mario and DDR. Never hold the bar. That's a good one. Yeah, don't hold the bar in DDR as lame. DDR is obviously a sport. If you didn't know, I love DDR. You're the best. You should play DDR. But yeah, going back to the very beginning of the panel, right? People don't be, you might think, okay, I'm not going to be hating on those sports people, but sports aren't for me. Guess what? You were an athlete the whole time. You didn't know it. You didn't know you were an athlete. A lot of the things you do are sports. You didn't realize it. So treat yourself like an athlete. Think of yourself as an athlete. Live like an athlete. Keep yourself healthy. Right? If you want to be good at games, and some of those games are sports you didn't realize until just now we're sports. You know, if you're in the street, if you play street fighter, I'm serious. If you're serious in street fighter, you should take care of your hands because it's like you break a finger, you're in deep shit. But you know, just in your general life, right? I mean, if you're sitting down in the couch playing Rocket League all night like this guy, instead of biking occasionally, you know, that's going to affect your Rocket League play when you become a potato lump, whatever. So even though they're not sports, you could say the same thing about your brain to go back into that argument. If you engage your brain like tabletop games, maybe you'll get better at tabletop games too. So think of yourself as an athlete because you probably are. So now we are going to spend probably the rest of the time talking about the elephant in the room. The obvious thing that should be talked about when you're talking about sports at PAX and that is e-sports. Which is already the worst possible word to use to describe this. Right. So e-sports have a big problem with this. I don't know if anyone else does too, but we used a different word to separate these sports, the ones that we like from the other more traditional sports. I don't want to say real sports, traditional sports, is that they've sort of ghettoized the e-sports. They're other. Somehow, you know, Dota is not the same as football. It's an e-sport. It's still out there. It's like, no, they should just say, imagine if instead of saying this thing called e-sports, it's over there. Just say, there's a brand new sport. It's called League of Legends. How much different would that be? That would be a big deal. Suddenly, they're doing that same disrespect of that's not a sport. It's an e-sport that we just said was very, very wrong to do because it's wrong. But we're still going to use the word e-sport because people understand what it means. We're not insufferable pedants. Right. So, I just don't like the fact that this has happened. But we're going to talk about e-sports now. But you'll see along the way there's a lot of points where this word causes a lot of friction or a lot of difficulty in addressing these things. So, e-sports. Let's talk about e-sports. Some e-sports aren't sports. Don't give me that nice dorm room business. The chess clock does not make chess suddenly a sport. The fact that occasionally you have to make your turn in five seconds doesn't make Hearthstone a sport. It doesn't matter how fast you've got to put the guys on the board. You're still just making decisions. But people call it an e-sport because it's still a competitive thing that is still put out in the same framework as sports. You have competitions, competitions, people are watching on ESPN much like poker. It's not a way that doesn't mean I'm disrespecting this. Just because saying something is not a sport people say that usually as a way to disrespect something. But that's not what I'm doing. I'm saying by definition it's not a sport. I play this all the freaking time. And much like the games that we play we're disrespecting the sports. The first panel, the first slide in the panel. How little can you know about football? Well, recently during the Dota International on Sports Center in the morning we had a reporter come on and report on the international. And the one who was actually casting from the international I forget all these people's names. She knows a lot about Dota. She's been casting for there for years. So she knew everything that was going on and did a very good report to the people in the studio. People in the studio were basically fighting to say I know the least about e-sports. That's just as bad as being the least knowing about football. How does it feel to get that turn about like e-sports? Let's see what the video men do with their video balls. We need to do a lot of work here I tend to get e-sports which shouldn't be called e-sports. They have the same amount of respect. There have been new sports recently. MMA is a relatively new sport and it didn't get disrespect on the Sports Center. They just started treating it like just any other sport. So how come these they're certainly treating it differently when another new sport comes onto the scene because they've labeled it e and other and we need to de-other the e-sports from all the other sports. It's hard for this to happen though because the problem with sports in games we'll talk about this more in a bit is that sports that are popular and well-known traditional sports have evolved for a very long time so there's not a popular culture idea of them changing. It's slowly and over time which is going to happen eventually and baseball for a hundred years was the biggest deal and nothing else really mattered and now football is the biggest deal and baseball is going way down most people don't even care who won the World Series but this town at least seems to care who won the Super Bowl even though they've only won one they act like it's a big freaking deal they've got four can you count to four okay let's keep going let's talk about these numbers are all different so I'm going to talk about them for a second so the 18 million people know is the Dota 2 international purse so that was the money by players that was given by players to buy these compendiums and went to Valve and Valve used this 18 million dollars to give to the winners they divided up amongst the winners it's not like just the top people got 18 million it was the whole purse for everyone divided out the 15 million people played in the Wimbledon Tennis Tournament they took 15 million and divided it amongst the winners so Dota 2 is bigger than Wimbledon and it's getting less respect that's a problem PGA Masters is even smaller than Wimbledon Tennis that's one golf tournament it's not golf as a whole the tennis is also one tennis tournament of the four majors and other non-major tennis tournaments so even though it looks like Dota's way bigger than those maybe it isn't okay Tiger Woods he's not doing very well lately he would win like two three masters in a year right so he'd get 30 million just from the winning it's not from endorsements or anything else and Dota 2 International the total all the Dota 2 professional players in the world added together don't equal the one Tiger Woods and that's just one golfer yep and tennis and golf both have support structures for like novice players amateur players people coming through the leagues to make enough money to live and get better at the sport there's really none of that unless you're at the top of these sports you're not making any money you have to support yourself some other way either parents basement you know independently wealthy robberies something so these Olympic medal numbers are deceiving because what you get for winning Olympic gold medal is a piece of gold carved into a circle on a ribbon right you don't actually get any money for winning an Olympic gold medal this money is because the US government slash US Olympic committee specifically has money set aside so that if you are American and you win a gold medal for the US they give you $25,000 per gold medal right that's garbage right Michael Phelps he doesn't need money I know he's got plenty right but to do trains his entire life right to do one thing and that is swim and when he finally swims well and gets a pile of medals he gets a few hundred K which is a lot of money because he got a lot of medals but that's enough to live for like a few years at a normal middle-class style right it's like you know he's rich because of endorsements and all these other things who train their whole lives to do something else and they don't win some downhill skier who comes in third place fourth place you know for America spends their whole life training and they get bupkus unless something bankrolled him the whole way and he has another career lined up that's the end and they can only participate in like two, three Olympics before they're too old right because they only happen every four years so those are their only chances to get any endorsement money like that one week that anyone cares about the Olympics you want to have a somewhat depressing time go to Wikipedia and find lists of like medal winners at the Olympics and just find out what happened to all of them like twenty years later it's really sad it's bad news okay Mayweather Pacquiao just one fight two guys getting a ring and punch each other for a little while two hundred million dollars between the two of them Mayweather got a lot more but Pacquiao still got tens of millions of dollars just for one fight like an hour not even an hour of standing there punching each other would someone pay me ten million just for someone else to pummel me down orders of magnitudes ridiculous ridiculous amounts of money and the reason why this number is so big compared to all the other numbers is because when those two guys punch each other it's not just them that gets rich they make a lot of other people rich right e-sports the Dota 2 International who does it make rich Valve and maybe a few players get a little bit rich no one else gets rich off that right when you have this big fight these TV networks running the pay-per-view get rich the beer companies get rich the place that's stalling the tickets in Vegas gets rich the promoters get rich you know all the trainers get rich the doctors get rich every all these people sports bars I was traveling during that fight and I literally went out to get dinner and every single sports bar in the entire city was full of people watching this fight right so all those sports bars pay in the TV network they sold alcohol it's just chains right down the line so much so that adds up do you have two hundred million dollars fair to give to these guys and they demand that much because they're about to get the shit kicked out of them and I'm sure when you were going to get punched by Floyd Mayweather you would want that amount of money too I would let him punch me once for ten million dollars you might not survive okay Rhonda Rousey similar situation right she tries to keep her fights intentionally as short as possible because she knows wisely that the more seconds she's in the ring you know the less fights she'll be able to have and she gets paid per fight so she's able to destroy people so quickly she makes about fifteen hundred dollars per second in the ring but her fights are only so many seconds long right so you know kinda evens out just to compare to the Mayweather Pacquiao right the MMA versus the giant giant boxing fight but hers are suddenly gonna I think be the number one thing and a Super Bowl commercial for thirty seconds costs four and a half million dollars so the Dota 2 International League will put all their money together they could buy like two minutes of Super Bowl time right that's how small Dota is compared to one football game one football game the biggest football game about one football game now this will change this will change but it's not gonna change real quick alright so now you can sort of get an idea in your head like the sizes you know and impacts on the world of the different sports from what's going on here money wise right and for eSports to become real you need to do what the Mayweather Pacquiao fight does right eSports needs to make everyone rich big time before it will become big time because other people TV networks only support it when it makes money for them right now it makes money for like two groups of people and that's it the next thing eSports needs is unification right every major sporting league in the world has unified in some way the American national leagues and baseball came together the AFL and the NFL joined together to make the NFL basically all of world hockey unified under Lord Stanley's cup right why does this happen why does this need to happen well because when you have I guess in eSports you got like the ESL and you got MLG and you got all these different tournaments who is really the best who is really the best right yeah nobody talks about nobody talks about who their football team and how many NFL championships they won before the Super Bowl existed no one talks about that the Giants won a whole bunch of them but we only count the four rings we're wearing that Seattle is not wearing because it's easy I'm in town I mean the Stanley Cup was awarded to a lot of teams in the challenges before like the tournament system that came later teams don't talk about the challenges as like the same era as the modern tournament system and the reason is because every year the Giants won an NFL championship before the Super Bowl existed some other team won an AFL championship that very same year which team was better we don't know we don't know which team was better because they didn't play until Super Bowl I they made them play so we don't know who is the best so for eSports to really take off we need to unify all the eSports into one group that has the real championship maybe we should make a cup and put people's names on it that would be cool I'll be down for that call it Rubens Cup that's A plus Rubens Cup man you're gonna cast a cup in silver and be a lord and bestow it upon right people care more about something about a sport as spectators and we'll give more money to it when it's a bigger deal and when they feel that the true champion is the winner of that thing that's why World Cup soccer is the biggest soccer because the winner is the winner there is no better team out there than the World Cup champion team there is no better baseball team out there than the World Series championship team right you know there's other hockey leagues there's the KHL who won the KHL championship last year no one cares because they didn't win the Stanley Cup I can't even name a team it's a real hockey championship you know the Moscow alright good job anyway unification needs to happen we need to get all these leagues to merge alright but there's a problem if all those leagues merge suddenly you have one body one entity that owns all of eSports and that is ripe for danger so if I spend my whole life like 10 years getting really good at Counter-Strike Go and I'm like in the top tier of Counter-Strike and my job is playing Counter-Strike and there is one league in Counter-Strike and someone doesn't like me I'm done no more career no more money nothing that my future is done I didn't go to college regardless of your political beliefs about unions in general there is a situation where I think it is inarguable that unions need to exist and that is when there is a single source of employment if you live in Philadelphia and the only place to work in town is a coal mine and that coal mine doesn't like you you have nowhere to work Scott doesn't like Philadelphia you have nowhere to work because there is only one employer so if we unify all the sports leagues which is necessary to get a sports league to be successful we need to have a union of players a players union to be able to bargain with that one eSports league to serve the interest of those players it just needs to happen otherwise they will just be taken advantage of they won't get paid enough money they will have poor living conditions it will be really pretty much an awful life to become an eSport athlete you want to have another really sad time? go read about old hockey leagues and old hockey players they weren't even wearing masks and how they retreated sometimes unions protect players against themselves hockey players didn't want to wear masks or visors or anything and they got hit in the face of the puck and they didn't care and now look at a lot of players out there many sports are like they're all brain damaged because when they were playing they didn't care and later on they realized they were wrong but if there was union in place then it would have protected them from themselves so you might think eSports are less dangerous until we see 20 years from now everyone who plays Starcraft's hand is falling off clicking too fast and you'll wish there was a union now to protect them from that anyway, union needs to happen governance so remember back in the day when, yeah so remember back in the day when the government was really getting scared about video games violent video games are going to be this dangerous thing we need to regulate them luckily that really didn't happen but if eSports get big like regular traditional sports got big the government has a lot of interest in regular traditional sports because it's such a big part of the economy so if sports go too far off the rails or too many scales or things happen then the government steps in and starts having government over governance eSports are nowhere near that point yet but if we don't have really consistent governance of like what constitutes a player's code of conduct how do we deal with drugs and abuses and all these things in the actual games that eventually either the games will collapse or the government will step in and start regulating I mean even football is regulated by the government and it's like if you can go to your appeals with the commissioner here and try to get your way or not get your way or whatever and if you fail, I guess what happens you go to court and then it's bad news you don't want some judge in a U.S. court or some other country's court making a decision about whether this Starcraft player may be cheated because they use some glitch to get their Xerxes to the other side of the board that is going to end very badly this one unified eSports league needs to have very strong governance much stronger than this governance they can make very important decisions about the state of the game, managed players all these sorts of things like if you look at hockey there's one place, the NFL, the NHL so if there's a dispute about whether or not something went the way they expected like their goal was scored or not they call up, there is an official body that makes an official decision write that in there there's people in Toronto with screens watching every hockey game and the ref just skates over picks up the phone and says was that a goal and then they watch it and then they say yeah it was a goal or no it wasn't one central governance the ultimate highest you hack that phone so what does governance get to you governance gets you a few things it gets you legitimacy if you have governance then you can prevent things like this from happening we've already had a Counter-Strike tournament where the players admitted using Adderall and now they've banned it because there was some governance in the ESL they were able to ban this now you know you need that governance everywhere in some sort of unified league so that if people are watching the sport and they believe that cheating is happening in former performance enhancing drugs they don't believe in the sport then they don't care who wins think about playing a game if I'm playing Counter-Strike and I'm pretty sure someone else is cheating I just quit I'm not going to play a game with a cheater I'm definitely not going to watch a game with a cheater right people like you know Hank Aaron it's like home run record like he's an idol people like look up to him big time no one looks up to very bonds even though his record is way more no one right because they believe that he was a cheater and if they had strong governance in major league baseball in the 90s that wouldn't be the case and a lot of people didn't even and very bonds would be a more historic figure than Hank Aaron because he was still really good and probably going to hit those home runs without doing drugs and a lot of people don't even think about this stuff because only recently has the news started looking you know think of every problem that happens in sports every problem every one of those problems can and will happen in esports as well and drugs is just the tip of the iceberg there alright integrity is very important right you have this one body managing the whole sport it's very important that there is no sort of conflicts of interest in that body right what if one day you have like I don't know little tournament at PAX for some game rim made rim ball rim ball and it's sponsored by some hard computer hardware manufacturer and one of the teams is sponsored by the computer hardware manufacturer and they win and the opponent team that they faced in the finals is sponsored by the competing computer hardware manufacturer hmmm people are going to start thinking about that it's a little weird it's extra tough with esports right now because it's a pretty closed industry the people who are sponsoring esports teams are the people making games making gaming hardware I mean only recently has even the tiniest bit of outside money really been around like you saw there's like a Geico booth here and there's that courtyard in the expo hall with their fake like whatever that was kind of weird but think about how little of that there is most esports teams are sponsored by people who are very well connected within this industry and it's a lot harder to cheat at football than it is to cheat at say some code on a computer there are lots and lots of opportunities for all sorts of shenanigans to happen in esports that no one is even looking for right teams betting on themselves betting against themselves and bailing out of games right you know the Pete Rose situation no one is looking for that situation and trying to stop it because there's no governance right and if people believe that oh that team lost because they lost our purpose to make a bunch of money betting against themselves then why are you watching this suddenly everyone doesn't care anymore right you need to have the strong governance from two slides ago to maintain the integrity of the game alright safety so wait a friend there's a game called jungle speed it's a sport board game where you have a little totem in the middle and when cards match someone has to grab the totem totem and whoever is holding the totem on their own wins the totem and a friend of ours at a convention broke his finger playing this game with us I was upstairs at the olive 8 pretty much most of the convention playing tabletop games they had giant jenga and people were screaming when the giant jenga came down no one was hurt but yeah if that giant jenga falls on you that's a little bit scary now you're probably thinking this is nonsense compared to the damage that you get playing this is Aussie rules football the most dangerous sport on earth except for hurling and except for that thing they do in Italy once every few years oh that thing in Italy which is just war put our website we'll link to that thing in Italy that thing in Italy is it's just brutality it's not a sport I mean it is a sport but it's evil it actually is a sport it's heinous it's entertaining however oh god oh crap anyway you might think the safety issue is small but actually the safety issue is quite large right I mean people have died sitting there playing video games for too long that's a real thing that happens yeah or what if you know what if video game tournaments happen in unsafe venues fire code like PAX is really good about that a lot of conventions are not good about fire code stuff and a tragedy could happen when spectators are big right and you have a hooligan situation right who's gonna be protecting the players from the crowd right we need to work on that right I see a lot of e-sports it's like I was watching international if someone wanted to run up on that stage and mess with the players they totally could have it's all volunteers like the person standing in front of the stage what if they all mob the stage right I mean you know the last time that happened in baseball is like we won the world series in 69 right it's like we haven't you know that doesn't happen anymore because the security at the stadiums is strong right if you jump out of the field at a football game someone tackles you within like three seconds and you're gone no one ever sees you again will they see you again eventually right I mean there was a stabbing at a major tennis tournament in the 90s right the spectator just stabbed but there are other issues of safety besides just concussions and the usual sorts of things you know car crashes and F1 you know those things won't happen in e-sports hopefully but there are lots of safety issues other than that that need to be addressed before someone can be willing to make this their career as a player or as running the league right or whatever it is we need to address those I hope none of those things ever happen but I think something like that is going to happen and then you're going to remember that I said this alright spectating we're doing good at spectating spectating is something we already got like look already like watch a dode tournament there's a color commentator and like we have real commentation in the spectation of our e-sports already like we're doing really well it's working great but at the same time a lot of e-sports have really been really bad heuristics like you all know what a touchdown is if you don't watch football and if you're sitting with other people who watch football they get excited and you get a little excited because alright something's going on you might not know what a fair catch kick is right or when you can do a drop kick in football or when you can do a free kick or whatever but you know what a touchdown is you can enjoy watching a football even if you don't know all the rules the sportsman grab the sports ball and he's running the other way and all the other sportsmen are really unhappy about it they're trying to chase him like that you can get that but if you don't play MOBAs and you look at a screen that has MOBA on it it's just noise you have no idea what's going on even with the commentary they have noob streams which is nice right to help you understand but even if you watch those it is still really difficult to spectate if you don't know what's going on right if we want the e-sport to be as successful as the real sport it needs to be not only entertaining to the non-casual spectator it needs to be entertaining and clear of what mostly of what's happening to anyone who turns on a TV in a bar in your town right they should be able to put the international on in a bar full of drunk people three people are fans of one team three people are fans of the other all those other people sitting just getting drunk need to be able to watch that and be entertained by it regardless of whether they played that game before know anything about it the big breakout e-sport like the big one that changes everything will have that aspect that is the single biggest factor in a breakout to get an order of magnitude above where we are now Rocket League is doing something right Rocket League is the closest I've seen Rocket League is doing something right I don't think Rocket League is going to be the be all end all but something along those lines is going to make a big deal video ball oh by the way Rocket League is a sport so is Madden Madden, despite being an imitation of a sport is a sport itself okay playing at home another thing these sports are getting right is playing at home they're probably doing better at playing at home than any other sport playing ice hockey at home is pretty rough I mean some sports look at sports that have a lot of like basketball is widely played they basically need nothing to play basketball someone's got a basketball there's hoops everywhere in the city you don't see a lot of people playing downhill skiing I mean even in Beacon where we lived which is not the city it was us city it was much much smaller than New York City there were basketball courts and they were getting used all the time but like in New York not a lot of people play tennis because it's really expensive you know what a lot of people play handball because you need a wall and a ball and there's walls everywhere walls everywhere now playing eSports at home is actually really easy they're played more at home than they're played professionally but part of the problem is is that you need a really good computer I know a lot of people who they can't afford a really good computer and even if you turn all the settings down it's really a bad experience the reason soccer is probably the most popular sport in most places on the earth is because you need a ball which you can make out of anything and people and that's all you need you don't need anything else but at the same time most sports have the same problems so it's not really a unique problem to eSports it's just nuance in that everyone needs the same sporting implement but in regular traditional sports everyone needs different sporting implement yeah in traditional sports different sports different traditional sports need different amounts of equipment and money and resources to play at home the soccer doesn't need a lot ice hockey needs a whole bunch but the eSports universally all need the same thing which is actually quite significant you're not going to see eSports spreading to the far reaches of the world where only soccer can go to where not everyone has a super fast internet connection and you know Nvidia cards being flown in every week even now New Egg I was in Australia they don't have New Egg guys they don't have New Egg or Amazon it's hard to get PC parts there was a PC part story went into way overpriced and they're way closer to the place it's made to the few people who were selling computer components there like people were buying like actually buying Ram at the convention which I laugh about I don't actually buy Ram at PAX I buy it on New Egg but in Australia people were buying Ram with good reason yeah if I lived in Australia I would have bought Ram there too because holy crap you know I buy 32 gigs with a click and it's like whatever we also have the weird aspect that you can compete at home a lot of qualifiers for eSport tournaments are at home with your own equipment you only get on to the serious like the professional equipment that's provided by the tournament in the upper level stages so it's also playing at home is also necessary for developing talent right it's you know there are countries that don't have a lot of ice hockey players and they don't have games why because they don't have ice right so no players come out of there right if you only have if you require a big fancy computer to play a specific game your players are only going to come from places where people have enough money to buy a big fancy computer so even you know in the country you'll see eSports people they come probably I would guess I don't have numbers on this from affluent families I don't think you see eSports athletes coming from you know lower income you know demographics and whatnot because they don't have to play it they play soccer basketball we were very privileged to be in RIT skipping class playing Counter-Strike every day for like five years RIT was really expensive you should go there anyway though because then you get you get more of this at RIT I don't think we could afford to go there anymore no we couldn't anyway but we wouldn't be here right now if we didn't so here we go history and legacy everyone knows who Babe Ruth is you know Tiger Woods I've used a lot of names right there was a survey I don't remember the details over a long time ago but it was like the most important Canadians ever like this huge survey study and I forget the order but one of the people near the top was the dude who saved all those people in Rwanda pretty important dude like the movie Hotel Rwanda like that guy was a real guy the UN guy yeah and the Canadians right next to him on that list is Wayne Greski right and sports figures are incredibly huge historic and influential people Michael Jordan people know the name Michael Jordan everywhere on earth right do people know the name of any e-sport athlete anywhere no one like that even the biggest names you can think of like I guess Diego the street fighter guy and fatality and where did he go can anyone name anyone who won an omega more than three years ago huh right it's like right the history and legacy of e-sports has already begun and it's already begun being lost why is there no Stanley Cup why doesn't like pass the omega where they just etched the names of everyone who ever wins this thing what if the winner of the omega got this trophy and carried it around for a year and then brought it back to the next pack and returned it to his home right the reason hockey has that right the reason this is important is because when you have a history and a legacy not only does it give people something to look up to right it gives people something to aspire to right I could be the next the international is not really that inspirational you're not an all-time you know person who's important around the entire world that everyone knows now one thing here that we lose with e-sports just because of you know the nature of a physical world like e-sports can be d-d-o-s that happened recently very hard to d-d-o-s football but with e-sports the power did go out once a few times that's happened but the problem with e-sports we have this problem well not a problem but a difference that I live in New York because I was born in Detroit the place you live has a huge influence on the sports teams you care about like I respect the Seahawks don't really want them to win but I don't feel bad if they win but if the Giants win I have nothing to do with that and it's not like I actually care that much it's not that I actually care that much but the Lions won so many times oh yeah I'm a fan of the Lions they never win but I was born in Detroit so which do-it-a-team should I root for the one from New York? I don't even know but why do I care about them? did my dad care about them? I was a Red Wings fan because my parents were Red Wings fans because their parents were Red Wings fans I'm a Mets fan because my dad was a Mets fan because his dad was a Brooklyn Dodgers fan and then became a Mets fan and when I was a little kid I would go see the Red Wings play their hockey the other hockey men at the Joe Lewis arena Joe Lewis is a famous boxer you know what there's a statue of Joe Lewis outside the Joe Lewis arena it is a statue as big as this table of his fist is there a statue of any e-sports person anywhere on earth? no there isn't but there should be and we need to preserve the history and legacy of what's happening now for that future to make that happen so if you out there are responsible for an e-sports league make Stanley's cup like make the cup now make something it doesn't matter right you need to make some icon that people believe in and the final last thing that we need to talk about is institution sports the traditional sports are an institution everywhere on earth they're a civilization from the islands where they play crickets to your local high school your local high school has football team why doesn't your local high school have a doda team? yeah I mean you take gym class you're doing sports just all the time it's a normal class in school in gym class why isn't the e-goligins in gym class? that sounds really silly but why not? DDR has been a gym class if you tell me totally valid but not enough not enough it's not just in schools it's throughout our entire society sports enter into things even if you don't care about sports it finds its way to have an effect on your life in some way you walk down the street here and of course the Seahawks one even the people in Seattle aren't Seahawks fans it took over their whole town there's parades there's jerseys on sale in the stores you see number 12 hung up in every place here to sell them biscuits it is an institution that has an effect on the whole society when the redwigs won the Stanley Cup and broke their drought in high school the entire school was closed the next day if me and Rim somehow got skills which is never going to happen and won the Rocket League championship you wouldn't see anything in New York outside of our apartments recognizing it yeah we're not going to get a tick or tape parade it's just not going to happen no one cares and we need to get e-sports to the point where there is not just Little League but Little League of Legends it needs to happen we put the whole panel around that joke this will happen this will happen when I'm an old man that will be a thing and parents driving their kids to go to the land you know to or not even going to the land but just you know making that an official after school activity they won't even blink at it you won't even think it's anything different whatsoever alright so we are done perfectly on time because we're awesome and we're going to run to the Omega Thon which is awesome e-sports I'd say enjoy the rest of PAX but just pretty much over there is no PAX left so follow us I hope that was entertaining