 Hello, I guess we're the early ones by 60 seconds. I Was actually I was the first one here and I was like, this is weird. I've never the first one in the meeting in the zoom I didn't see anything saying that Changed I was almost thinking I was in the wrong link. I was second-guessing myself We're in the right place. It's the right place. It's okay here in Washington Everybody's gearing up to watch the impeachment hearings. How did you like it? Did you watch yesterday? not much about an hour and Incredibly effective. Jamie Raskin is just it looked like the best episode of Terry Mason ever run Better better. Yeah better better and not in black and white very much in color. Yeah All I can think is that we have to somehow organize a million Americans to send personal notes to the congressional the Senate staffers who work for the Republican members and we have to basically say You have to realize the you're gonna someday leave the hill and people are gonna ask you How could you work for that guy? Why didn't you resign when he did this and I have to think that if you know Three or four or fifteen of the senior staff on these in these offices went to the boss and said You've got to explain this to me because if you can't I'm leaving I'm down for that strategy or their kids like if you could network their kids to corner them over dinner And say mom dad. I don't want this to be on our like you're you're basically putting a smear on the family name Wow No, seriously, these people should live in the Hall of Infamy Hall of shame because if they give Trump a pass on this thing They're busy. They're basically opening Pandora's box Yeah, I don't know the kids that a lot of times Conservatives have very liberal kids and liberal adults, which is awesome Yes, open door. Well, no, no, they've learned to ignore each other But in this case, maybe they can they can slow down and say like this is like family legacy kind of moment Right because yeah, you've been ignoring me and it's great that I go out of this protest And I've joined the Black Lives Matters parade and so it's so easy to ignore me because it's cute because I'm young and I'll I'll eventually become an ultra arch-conservative But at this moment you are busy staining our family reputation Mmm for generations the way that the way that they're renaming Confederate statues right now and tearing them down you're doing that to our family Anyway, that's just a subtle play Well, how would we get the if we go with the Senate staffer approach? How would you get the word out? How would we how would we mobilize? And it doesn't have to be people inside the state of December It just has to be because in some cases the staffers aren't from the state They're thinking about their next 30 years a lot of them are locals right a lot of them are Permanent to see people there. There's their congress critters who Will become staff and move around across, you know, they're they're party a lot So I don't know there must be like a is there like a google group for senate republican staffers Can we get our can we hack our way onto that? there must be Jerry I missed the opening which whose which family is being defamed here um So I'm I'm making the premise that the families of the republicans who are still backing trump Yeah in the senate Are should basically show up on a hall of shame that lasts a really long time Yeah, because what they're doing is they're condoning this behavior and and yesterday's trial was basically like better than the best Perry mason episode in in its in its clinical Explanation of the escalation of the intentional escalation of the entire project And by a mobster by a mobster leader. Basically, you know, this will be a gambino Yeah Might as well be a gambino Kill you raise your hand or Yeah, so um two things um one is that um Jane was glued to this all day yesterday. I was doing other things and I kept asking her How is fox covering this and she just didn't want to go there Well, turns out how fox is covering this Is that when they started to run the footage Fox cut away to the lawyer who was a kitten Yep, and they didn't run the footage and you know, that's nasty in itself when you think about that I don't know what 30 percent of american adults get their news from fox Right and probably everybody who is at the capital mob got their news from fox You know, it starts to get a different perspective on what's going on to the matter of shaming the families Um, that would be one option the other option would be to reach out to the families and have them shame the member That's what that's what he's proposing So, okay, good. Good. Good. It's like, you know, missus strata redux exactly. Exactly. So, uh, actually my sister is a is a sex Sex strike two, which is a third option Well, that's what's right. Uh, yeah, that I wasn't saying sex strike yet, but that's a really good option too um So anyway option one, which Mike presented was how do we contact the staffers of the republican senators To get them to say, hey, this is not right And if a dozen staffers in each office basically rise up and say we're just against this that could actually That could tip a whole bunch of senators and 13 senators have to tip for how many 17 have to tip is the number but 10 have already moved Well, five or six indicated that they Did they think The number's a little uncertain because there's some question over whether it needs to be Two-thirds of the full senate or two-thirds of the senators present and vote Right, and that means that a bunch of republican senators could decide just to not show up that day Yeah, which reduces the total number and reduces the number of votes needed, but it's you know, it's somewhere between Whatever, you know, seven and seventeen. Yeah It's crazy, but riveting absolutely riveting and and A piece of this is like How do we map this? There's an ogemi side to this whole puzzle Which there's like five ogemi sides to this whole puzzle as I think about it One of which is how do you present these arguments in a visual way between between timelines and networks of people involved and Compelling ways to make the story even richer and deeper But another one is how do you bridge the cultural divide and we're busy talking about little hacks here Um How do we how do you actually get this conversation going and I've been trying to put my head inside those republican senators heads And and try to imagine their mental calculus right Partly the bet partly there's an immediate threat to their they and their family's health and well-being They they they leave and they're the same angry people that just put american flags through uh Capital hill police are going to be out at their doorstep and dogging them in airports and wherever else for the rest of their lives And they know that I mean, I think that's sort of a given and so apparently the alternatives aren't strong enough to outweigh even that pragmatic consideration It's weird and I don't want to eat this call with with the politics of it But we are in the middle of an extraordinary trial simply extraordinary trial The evidence is so overwhelming and so clear and all the criminals videoed themselves And and like like all this stuff is just simply available. It was funny Raskin was saying, you know, I used to do trials and in some of my trials You have to like infer the state of mind of a lot of things like these people told us These people were were communicating navigating this whole thing in public coordinating in full public view cost. Did you want to jump in? Yeah, I mean the headlines this morning are still that the republican senators are unconvinced and haven't changed their mind and that's really uh leading right back to their voters because the feedback they're getting from their voters is Nothing has changed And the voters are impacted by fox news and the right wing media, which is reinterpreting the information And and selectively showing these things Because no one can sit through for hours and hours of of watching this So most people rely on these snippets that the news networks extract from these conversations And what fox news for viewers see is something completely different And one of the most effective things that's happened so far is dominion systems and the other voting company suing Fox and a whole bunch of other people so that so that newsmax had to disclaim and shut down an interview with a dude Because they knew they were going to get their asses sued out of business. That was actually remarkably effective. Uh, dud then john Doug you're you're muted. There we go. Okay I'm feeling like somewhat of an outlier here I think of adam kurtis's films about the reality that we're in Which is created more by the generations of the professional class And that what's so wrong with the country Is created by both parties And that if we end up talking about what's wrong with the republicans and the chump followers As though the rest of the world is okay. We're missing how difficult this situation right now Actually is Well, thank you There is dealing The the problem of the professional class Which continues to support its career ladders and its distribution of income Is something that we that this group needs to I think struggle with I think we've got to to avoid Kind of holier than thou postures In the current situation And the world is really in trouble And in a I think in the long View from history The whole trial is going to be seen as a distraction From the things we ought really to be being concerned about exactly So Doug I just posted a link to a thought I have in my brain Well, but we'll abide in this situation do enough to fix what's actually broken And that that links up to another thought which was like there's five. We're in the middle of five Global crises and all of this stuff is distracting us from that. So I really completely agree with what you just said and I would love us not to have to focus on the mobster and chief To be able to get to the conversations that matter which which are off the table right now They're just off the table entirely so And I and I think your systemic perspective is is like key for us to get our arms around as well John then plus Yes, so It's bad persuasion for me to open by saying this is not the answer So this is not the answer, but it's a it's bricks It's pieces of something just to remind people if you're going to construct an answer you might want to use some of these things I'm on a couple of uh feeds for teachers of critical thinking and teachers of media literacy and they're You know, they're both heartening and disheartening at the same time For reasons, I think you can all guess I mean, there's a thing there's a bubble bursting But basically it's it's like the comment about nobody's going to watch the whole thing So there's a fact checker thing and they say, okay, here's a here's the fact here. Oh, no, that's not right You know this we checked that's not right, you know and and right away, you know, you look at that page and you go Oh, you know, it's like Oh, I already had a bad day. This just made it worse Um, the one thing I heard about That immediately I said, yep, that would do it. Um, but The caution is it would it would not do it for the hardcore. It would not do it for the senators. Okay It might or might not do it for the staff But here's the exercise you say Here we got some footage here. We need to edit it What do you put in and you know, you have just a little workshop You're going to make you're going to make a program by the end of this thing, you know And you're going to work in teams and of course, you know, they're going to be different program They're going to be a very slanted program, you know Come that comes from the team that wants it to be slanted that way And there's going to be a different slanted program. The team wants to go that way and You know You can say that the effect is just well Okay, both sides edit reality But the experience Of sitting on the other side of the screen and watching how the cuts go together and watching The the change in the emotional effect of having made the cut a certain way Is sobering, you know, I I did it with the The before he retired editor of 60 minutes in a class and wow, you know Well, you know, you just you just realized wow, I I knew it was important I knew this was going on but it was just it's just much more Significant than I was willing to give it credit and I think For people who are not too far locked into one side or the other the experience of being in a mixed class and doing Media synthesis from raw footage Would really Be enlightening Thanks Hank. Thanks John and the idea That sitting down to collaboratively edit something Would would wash into people's brains and make a point is really really nice It's a because because then you have to do joint judgment on what do we show? And that forces a lot of these issues and it makes people see stuff because I think I think a lot of the senators went when the 12 minute video played yesterday Uh about what what went down I think a lot of them didn't know it hadn't seen and hadn't been paying attention or had You know intentionally been ignoring and I love that that during impeachment Everybody's got to stay silent upon pain of prison Like like if they pop up and say no you lie if they do that they go to prison Like like like the impeachment rules are different from normal senate rules It's very very interesting and so they're supposed to be listening to everything without complaining and Some of them have their iPads hidden under their desks apparently and and stuff like that But it's really it's a it's a special moment that way And how many before going to claus I think we'd like to start ushering our chats over onto matter most onto the matter most chat Are there several of you who are not on the matter most and can we get you there? I'm not George can we uh, uh, so Hank just put a link to the chat. Are you on matter most at all? Not at all. Okay. Let's get you let's get you on there And uh, we'll sort of We'll do the chat a little bit both ways But we're trying to move all of our chats over onto matter most so that they're there permanently and anybody can scroll up and down And it's just much easier So what's what's the next step that I should take? Just um, we want matter most calm if you go to If you click on the link that Hank just put in this chat The the the link that says chat collective sense commons.org agora If you click on that it ought to take you to a web browser tab with matter most present asking you to log in And then say sign up or sign in and that should give pete An alert. Oh good. Pete's on the call now Pete we're trying to get george and who else claus. So you're not on the matter most I'm on you're on. Yeah, someone else raised their hand. I thought like nelson I don't see I don't see where in the chat and mike nelson. Let's uh, let me repeat read Actually, pete would you and and yeah, perfect. So the There we go. Got it and also gill and mike need to get on the matter most and I will go over to matter most and Flip my screen around so that I can see stuff Um, and that being said, let's pass the mic to claus Yeah I think what we what we have to step back from is this is basically political theater That obscures a whole lot of underlying movements I hadn't I listened to an interesting conversation yesterday where a Republican operative started to Step back from we can't just blame trump because there are all kinds of other people who have done Who have contributed to this this wasn't just donald trump. In fact, he may he May be the least important actor. You know the way they framed it so trumps impulse if he really gets At risk of indicted would then be to say well, what about close? What about you know, these other senators and political operatives because Obviously, this wasn't just trump. This was he was enabled and empowered by an entire group of people and the Real risk that what what biden but this shift now in political power Has already caused is a threat to trillion dollar fortunes when you think about fossil fuels that are That may be Abandoned assets. I mean when I look at the what's happening in an agriculture I mean these changes that are being that are being pushed through the system right now have massive impacts For many many people so We look at this political theater and and we are using this as as tripping decisions without really looking at The the the roots, you know the the underlying Impacts of what happens if trump gets convicted and biden gets to run It gets a more free course of action to implement these massive adjustments to the direction of the economy And I think that's really where The the the pressure points are The complexities of the system are astonishing and the durability of this is astonishing There's so many aspects of this that are disheartening and crazy making um And we can also switch to a regular Check-in round, but I feel like we're in this like extraordinary moment any any other comments on On this I I'm so long ago. I read about Milton Erickson who was a therapist and a hypnotist back during the Great Depression and all that And briefest story I can try to tell he had polio twice in his life Once when he once when he was young And he he was laid up in bed and his family would bring him his bed out into the living room they played they were apparently like a pretty high functioning family really nice and He learned to read Skin tone like when somebody's ears were red and he he learned to listen to tone to pitch a voice and all that He got extremely sensitive to sort of how humans represented stuff And then he's he learned sort of hypnotism as a hobby as a hobby and then later as he grew up He had polio again and he used hypnotism as a pain management for himself But he was famous for his handshake inductions And basically he could shake hands with with a patient and by the time they had finished shaking hands because When you shaking hands is such a deeply rooted autonomous sort of gesture That you go into kind of a little loop and your your body and mind go into a loop by the time he would let go of your hand You'd be in trance Anyway, all of that to say that he was known for Basically making small suggestions to your subconscious that would change behavior He was trying to increase your subconscious's behavioral repertory So that when you entered a situation where you previously only had like one trigger response Like you're approaching a bridge. I hate bridges. I'm gonna panic and I'm just gonna panic You could then pull over and take some breaths. You could do whatever else And I'm trying to figure out what what would Milton Erickson have done to the collective psyche now because I've watched some things Over time happened pretty quickly. I watched as instant messaging spent zero dollars on marketing zero dollars and suddenly everybody was like, hey, I am me that and buddy And it was like a contagious tool that was really useful that didn't have a business model And and it just took over the world and and caused large scale behavioral change I watched that happen and that's different from political points of view and all that and I've been tracking and watching The growth of the far right and all that So so I'll say that I'll hand off to george's I can gill your hand is still up And I think your hand is up because earlier you you wanted to jump in so if you can lower your hand while You're busy troubleshooting matter most that would be awesome And now I'll pass the mic to george my favorite Erickson story that might be relevant here is a young man was Waited a long long time to see him and waited in his waiting room for waited months to see him Waited in his waiting room for a long long long time Came in sat down Erickson looked at him and said, you know what to do get the hell out of here Um It was amazing kind of appalling and profound at the same time Exactly, but and Erickson had this wool way approach to psychotherapy wool way is action through least action Um, and and and so I'm always trying to figure out what is what is the smallest thing you can do to sort of Change the system in some large way. Um, Kevin go ahead Um, yeah, I I just think that you know Uh, I'm firmly convinced that behavior change is not viral That it's a complex contagion That you and you know if you look at the Q and on stuff They got it from their friends and neighbors multiple sources multiple times And to believe the behavior change is viral is incorrect information change is is viral to really go to uh behavior change It's a complex contagion and damon centola has written really well about that in his book change And and and documented that behavior change is not a viral phenomenon Can you elaborate on why that I think when we say viral we mean it really loosely But I think we mean complex behavioral change the the cascades and no It doesn't it doesn't mean that actually Viral means it looks like fireworks. It spreads rapidly from single touches Complex contagions look in topology like you're in a fish net and there's multiple connections within your group You need multiple connections from people you trust to get to behavior change I've got a whole bunch of stuff on Q and on and how it's a complex contagion And can you throw those things in the chat? In the matter most uh, yeah, let me okay. I was just uh share it But as you and you don't even have to do it right away, but just um, yeah Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, and I have a bunch of links in a blog post I haven't written that I'll just start putting there But but but the topology of viral and behavior change is not the same you could you can you can get uh COVID Virally and you can get aids virally. You can't do behavior change without multiple trusted references around you And and I I'll put them up there Viral growth which is small compounding and a critical mass explosion I explain this all in my book on word of mouth marketing But the you get a critical mass and you get a gigantic explosion Versus just 1 growth which can be over the world gigantic after a while So we're using viral we're using viral because we're being lazy apparently about the actual dynamics of this movement But is there a shorthand word we can use for the more complex kind of change because I know that centola is also Complex contagion is about tipping points Yeah, I mean and you can get to you know 10% can be a tipping point that kind of thing but Complex contagions are explicitly different than viral contagions. I mean they are diseases that Spread differently behavior change spreads differently This conception was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell and Yeah, but he got it all wrong. He did He gets a lot of things wrong George There's that he makes it he makes up a lot of you know If you look at some of the interviews that I'll post of people who got into Q and I was like I thought it was crazy and then my sister-in-law did it and then my brother-in-law did it and then somebody else did it And suddenly you have multiple voices from multiple places that are saying that's the way to go And the part of that's a different form of contagion And a part of the reason why there's a large chunk of the of the american population that Believes that the election was stolen and completely believes that is that Everybody around them everyone in their social circles everyone they saw everyone on the news They were watching was completely on board and there's no way there could be that many americans left out left over to actually outnumber us Like they like it was overwhelming their entire circles were in dug Yeah, the first thing is that contagions Only spread when the ground that they're happening on has been long prepared So it's not the contagion emerges into history by itself There's a turning the world into an agar agar solution Where the contagion can grow I think is really important to understand Sure, they were out in the gold got the flu. Yeah. Yeah. I just posted A uh an example here of what is happening at community level where The idea to engage restaurants which are sitting idle and employees which are who are unemployed are now producing food for unimped for needed people instead of Handing someone a box of groceries they can go and get a completed meal or when it go meal Those are impactful things and when we are talking about contagion of ideas They have to have a practical benefit. I mean the conspiracy gets you only so on so far It doesn't have any personal impact on your life But the moment people see something that changes that impacts their well-being that idea Resonates and that idea is being picked up Huh So the the the start here is particularly to go into the most disenfranchised communities with Real-life programs that assist them will shift the attention Of of people towards more practical things towards self-help things and take them out of this political Agitation that they are that they are being used for basically Um, thanks Gil. I thought I heard sound from your mic and it didn't look like you're muted when that sound happens So I apologize if you already were muted Cool and um, pete, I'm sorry to distract you by helping people get into the matter most while we're having this conversation I apologize. It's just uh, so why don't we do a check-in round? Let's go back to our normal habits on thursdays and I'll start with uh, with tony matt and kevin Uh, yeah, hi tony. Um arcados here. I have nothing to say. I'm just listening today Happy to have you here. How about that? Thanks for being here Matt kevin hank Hey everybody, um I maybe just to start I've been I've been talking to a bunch of people asking them if they watched the trials um, and um So far I've gotten um, I'm like oh for 12 Wow Yeah, and these are smart people. These are Engaged people and these are my family members So I think I think we can make the assumption that everybody's watching this stuff and processing it I would I would probably wager that the majority of americans are avoiding it Um, right and george, is that right? Is that I'm not I'm not watching it I'm I wrote two chapters in my book instead Okay, and I think um, you know, I think that that's a really an interesting it's just an interesting thing because There's one there's one thing to listen to the news cycles afterwards report on it There's another thing actually to to listen to the case itself and to Sort of put it together for yourself. And I think that those things are drastically different and this you know, um You know the intermediation of information through You know, you know through those cycles or not even people just stepping away. I think is really interesting So that's just a first observation. The second thing is um I um introduced a quest into um into the discourse the other day about um putting together a little, you know Putting together a little package around the work that's being done by um Um, it's not the tools for connectors. It's the emerging. It's the emerging events Guild um And we're playing around with this idea of how do you sense what's going on in the world And make sense of that and then put together and put together sort of really good packages and I think The um, I think the impeachment is a really interesting way that they actually are using language. Yes, it's evocative But they're not they're not going over into because like if I were a speech writer and or I've written speeches if you were Asking someone to write that speech you'd probably ask them to talk about it in a very different way Right to repeat certain words to and they are really holding back on Anything but just laying it out piece by piece and I'm really impressed by that level of restraint And the level of pulling back kind of the rhetoric You know and so I think that that kind of that kind of um Presentation is actually highly effective when doing um when Um illuminating I'm sense making right because sense they made sense of a situation by aggregating a bunch of information And now they're presenting that in a way that other people can Follow along with how they made sense of it and I thought they did a good job and that's something what I want to think about with this With this quest so And the reason why I bring up the quest is I think that we're starting to closer with ogm about What is this group right? We're members of a community Which is different than ogm the um the infrastructure the the um The the soil the fertile ground if you will dug of and the fertile, you know the fertile Estuary of the ecology that will become of a kind of a web of people a web of work and a web of knowledge, right? Which I think is what we're building so I wanted to put that out there because I don't think we've talked a lot about ogm We kind of have these these Thursday calls our conversations of where we're participants in the community Which I think is wonderful and just recognizing what these meetings are as I think is important Which leads me to my last Question if I have a quest It's related to this project that I'm working on which is called um Cunatomy in cunatomy It's it's general principle Was how do we understand? um, what's going on broadly? through Asking of simple questions Over time long periods of time. So it's sort of think about it as a longitudinal survey but instead of Like and it started actually and it's coming up on valentine's day. I wonder just to illuminate what cunatomy is I wonder what would happen if we Asked everybody in the world. What does love mean to them? Right. So what does love mean to you when we do it on valentine's day? And then we do it again next valentine's day and then we do it again the valentine's day after that What would happen ahead if we have been doing that since the 19? You know, let's say just my life You know, um, you know since the early 70s You know dog, I'd love I'd love to hear over your life How has this understanding of love changed and then how would you compare? Maybe one generation to another generation. How would you compare? How could you analyze? White men from boston versus white women from boston or white men from boston with white men from california Or 40 year olds versus 50 year olds now. And so I think that this this idea of One question at a time Text out to the world where people can answer in a very short format And that's why I wanted it to be text that we're running analytics on what would that tell us about us And so I would love if we could spin up and it's probably too short Just a simple web page with the question of what does love mean to you Where we have a simple database on the back end and we collect a little bit of demographic stuff And we just get it out to everybody that we you know, we just get it out I get my daughters to put it out on the social media that i'm not a part of and so forth I just think we would start to like almost have a See the anatomy of the way that our minds as both individuals and a society are operating You know operating on a on a on a long basis so it's sort of like the largest longitudinal Study through good questions every day text to you and you can answer them or not And then you can look at yourself and compare yourself to others and we can aggregate it And the reason why I never acted on it. Um, and never asked for anyone to do it is um I didn't want it to put it in the hands of a corporation that would use it to market Um, and so that's why I think this group is the right group to to bring this bring this to And it may be something we put on the back burner, but it's that's what's on my mind today Matt, thank you And it's ringing a very faint bell for me that somebody somewhere had done a slow drip polling experiment That was not not as interesting as as what you've just described But there's there's a bit of history in this that i'll try to find Uh as we go, but I think it's a great idea and I really yeah And there was the like the post secrets project was kind of interesting Yeah, you know, um, I had done a secrets project when I was Before the internet and when I was in college So I think that there, you know datum does some interesting things here Which is collecting sort of data and it's not just you know regular data, but it's like data about You know every day that you bring an umbrella or every, you know, something like that, right? Um, and so I think there are other ways of these kind of collections I just i'm looking for that elegant thing Which is really about how we about what we believe and how we think So let me go to mike next because mike has to bounce off this call soon So we'll um, we'll just twist the queue a little bit. Yeah, I really apologize But if I could take two or three minutes of that would be helpful um I work at the Carnegie Endowment for international peace and I've had two jobs One is as a research fellow and one is coordinating our technology and international affairs program And we're looking to hire somebody to kind of split the job So I'm And this is not a public announcement yet. We haven't put a job description out But I'd be curious if anybody knows anybody Who is adept at managing Research projects around tech policy particularly within an international bent um my email I'll put my email in the um in the mind matter matter matter most Yeah matter most mind over matter The other more interesting question Is that we're also replacing the head of the Carnegie Endowment Uh bill burns as you may have seen is now the head of the CIA And I don't expect people on this call know people personally who would fit in that job, but I'm curious if people know of high-level diplomats, you know, legendary people who are um Well, actually not legendary yet. We're looking for something Is you know been in the business long enough to know everybody that matters and know how to make Decisions about what The big issues are and where Carnegie should be going But I'd just be it's sort of sort of a personnel a popularity contest, you know, as you look around at high-profile diplomats Who would you consider? Or who would you think that we should look at I'm also I'm torn by this this polarity of who knows everybody in sort of Who would be welcomed in with who actually seems to have hacked how some of these things might be working and could change how Diplomacy and politics and power politics are happening like who who could get who could crack the code on that And why diplomat? I mean like I don't know understand enough about what you imagine the job is but I I'm my mind is racing in a good way Well, it doesn't have to be a diplomat. It has to be somebody who understands diplomacy And because that's what that's what the what your guys are working on is is diplomacy It is working on policy that has an international aspect So it's the Carnegie endowment for international peace And we're trying to understand how the world is changing My team is looking at how technology is changing the world and changing governments and changing geopolitics But a lot of our people are looking at developments in russia. We had to talk this morning about The protests in russia So that's that a lot of our team is regional studies tracking what's going on in places around the world But we have these cross cutting groups that look at nuclear policy space policy My case impacts of tech So there's a lot of different Are there any proponents at the endowment for there to be a u.s secretary of peace? It's been proposed a department of peace we have a department of war which is now called the Department of Defense because of course we never go aggressively attack anybody But why why wouldn't we have a department of peace and then have Carnegie like feed that? That'd be awesome. Like our government should actually have United States Institute of peace Yeah, but cabin level like like let's actually stop Tromping on other countries because we have a nice long history of it. There's a book titled overthrow Which is about and it was published in the 60s or 70s about the 64 times the u.s has overthrown other other country's leaders Starting with queen kamehameha in hawaii and going through the Shah and a bunch of others I mean the Shah we put in mosadish We we toppled so that we could put the Shah in place There's like this insane terrible story of america Basically trampling around the world and doing this kind of stuff So if we if we if we explicitly took an opposite approach and copped to the shit we pulled over history That would that would flip a lot of things that person would be pretty credible at least worldwide probably not in the u.s Doug you want to jump in? Yeah, mike When you hire somebody for that job They should have a backup group that's talking about serious questions of strategy off the record Well a lot of what we do is off the record, which is probably why some of you haven't heard about karni A lot of it is quiet high level catam house rule kind of meetings I would interview malka older I think she's really interesting. Uh, she worked in darfur and a lot of other Failed state situations that she's become a near term sci-fi writer But she writes op-eds for the new york times in the post and uh Is leading some other kinds of policy speculative kinds of things? I think you would learn something from talking to her. I'm a real follower of everything she does That might help on the other thing I do which is I'm on the board of the arthur c. Clark foundation Which perpetuates his memory, you know awards An annual award to people who are Combining imagination which with futuring So we're trying to stimulate future thinking. How do you spell her name? m a l k a O l d e r Um another another thought is mali melching and I have no idea whether she's personable and knows the world but she's the woman who By hacking the quran has reduced female genital mutilation across africa in a pretty significant way um And she basically went to imams and villages and said hey, guess what? FGM is not in the quran There's no real reason to be doing it and they agreed and then once the imam said hey, we don't do this anymore It cascaded down and really worked and then somebody who understands How to do culturally appropriate social dynamics like that would be a really great voice Interesting I Knew I'd get some interesting ideas of people to talk to and ways to think about the exposition Cool Thank you for putting up the Arthur C. Clark Foundation link And I'm adding a link to the melching story to our chat as well Okay Cool. Um, so let's go and I've forgotten what the queue was. Uh, let me re uh Whoop, let me reinstate the queue a little bit. Uh, we had Matt. So hank pete scott yeah, so, um Quick update for me that that has some connections to some of the conversations that we've been That we've had already today um, I So I did a little personal experiment. Uh, So I spent two weeks where I found a podcast or I don't know if it's really an official podcast But whatever it was like every night I listened to this guy that like no joke probably Half a million people according to his rumble listened to every single night Huge Q conspirator because I was like, I got to listen right and like Actually hear what these cats are talking about. Um, and It was interesting because even though I Am generally like pretty resistant to a lot of those ideas For the first couple days, I was like, holy shit. This dude might be onto something, you know I mean and then the more I kept on listening the more I was just like, all right This story is changing. It's like every day. It's kind of like taking what's happening and fitting it into You know the mental model that he has which we've talked about a lot, right? About how people just take information and fit it into the way they understand the world versus pausing and thinking So, um, it was an interesting thought experiment for me. Um, I can't say that I mean, I'm definitely not a convert but But it was it was just it was just interesting and it got me thinking a lot about the human tendency to Amplify negative information um, and how that might Play a role in Just some of the dynamics that we've been talking about, you know, not to paint with too broad of a stroke, but You know, it just kind of it's it's it sparked a lot of thoughts In regards to what's happening politically what happens culturally and corporations And what happens in our personal lives too, right? Like where something all kinds of good things can be happening, but if we, you know, don't necessarily understand the You know ambiguous pieces of information and we see, you know it's easy for us to see them as a threat to the way that we live our lives now and Turn that into something, you know that told negativity bias idea. So That's that's kind of where I'm at and what I've been thinking about for the past week or so So, yeah That's just awesome. Thank you. Like really a cool really a cool experiment and It was scary, but Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and it sounds like in several ways, right? Um, Yeah Awesome anybody else sort of gone and listened to to the DQ side See you're unique in the in the crowd Yeah, I mean You know, I just uh, just to start to put one final kind of point on it I think the craziest thing for me or the big realization for me was like I had to acknowledge that there was some resonance, you know where I was kind of like Oh, I see that happening too The issue that I have is that like I think that you are completely misdiagnosing either the problem or the solution, right? Just so that you can perpetuate your point of view um And so that kind of connects to what I was saying last week about like having really real conversations about things that are actually going on and How we want to fix them um where I was like, I don't Even though I think that this guy might have a an interesting idea Uh, I don't know that I could sit and talk to him because I feel like if I said this The conversation would shut would like completely degrade Um, I was like, well, it'd be sick if he was an ogm and we could just have a big conversation about it Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, let me go into my on the other hand if you On the other hand if you actually talk with him, he might have a different conversation that he normally has most days So true. Yeah, but I can and I can understand where some of these hooks come from for example I have a belief that uh child abuse is much more epidemic than we're willing to face and that we report and so forth Including systemic kinds of child abuse that we don't even notice Like, you know, put the baby in the other room and make sure they cry themselves to sleep kind of thing I think that's uh, you know, I believe in like baby and crib and kind of baby on in bed and and co-sleeping and all that which is sort of weirdly taboo but I don't believe that The democrats are meeting in the basement of the pizza parlor to drink the blood of children kind of thing Begin, you know, the performing satanic rituals. That's like, um, not so much But but I can see that if someone were digging and turning the soil on child abuse and its systemic sort of Roll I'd be like, yes Like I yeah, I totally agree with that So so, you know, and then misdiagnosing and then building other kinds of stories around it Goes crazy really but it's it's crazy how crazy it goes how quickly and then if you layer on top of that the articles that That adu and han and others have been writing about is Q and on an ARG or you know We're the we're the protesters larping into the the capital and all that Uh, where larp is live-action role play Super interesting stuff Um, so let's go, uh, pete scott gill Morning all it's it's good to see y'all I think we've pretty much got most people into the matter most now, which is really cool Uh, I wanted to I wanted to say that uh, the thursday calls are great And some of us just come for the thursday calls to ogm and and there are others of us who have kind of a broader interaction with or more projects with ogm ogm folks Um, one of those is something we we call the the steering team. There's a tuesday call Which is actually not closed or anything. It's open to whoever There's a separate channel for it's got sense making in the name of it If you go over to public channels and then click more, you'll see all the channels you could join on matter most um, uh, I wanted to say this this week's we had a really, um, productive discussion and And you can get a glimpse of it kind of I'm going to post a Doc which covered some of Actually only a tiny bit of the discussion and then some of the other things that are going on in ogm This is a doc that I I've set up to kind of talk about the different kinds of activities going on in ogm at least some of them um, so Long story short, you know, there's uh, there's a lot to ogm And there are some of us working on ways to kind of Create an umbrella organization Kind of like an ogm foundation or something like that that is a little bit more a little bit more firmed up and also Able to kind of help direct lots of different kinds of stuff in ogm Um, I think that's it for me awesome. And I think the channel is called the steering tuesday Uh ogm steering tuesday, right? Uh ogm steering tuesday hashed jam session jam session. Yeah, exactly. That's that's uh, thanks She just go over to more and and and then click on that and look and find it And uh, that call is on tuesdays an hour earlier at our old 7 a.m. Time So that call has not moved to 8 a.m. So if anybody wants to join you are totally welcome And we're we're sort of trying to put most of many hands on the rudder to figure out what shape we take So thanks for mentioning that Pete Let's go Scott gill, uh, Doug Everyone, um three things to say So thank you You spurred something for me that I didn't realize I was doing But it's kind of interesting All of my zoom calls are left leaning All of my youtube consumption is right leaning That's fascinating Yeah, it's an interesting balance Um, so i'm not engaging in the conversations on the right But i'm listening To that that perspective and that content and so i'm finding that a really interesting balance Um, and I didn't realize that I was doing it I guess I didn't consciously Set that up. So anyway, it's it's kind of interesting to me. Um, can you restate that change scott? Can you restate that change? Yes, so all of my zoom group conversations tend to be with left leaning groups So their conversations their interactions and the whole group Tends tends that way all of my youtube podcasts and content that I take in that way Which is not a conversation is Right leaning And so i'm i'm getting that balance I'm not i'm not interacting But i'm getting that the same input levels, I guess And it's it's clearly split. I you know, it's it's funny. I just didn't notice that until I was reflecting on what hank had said Super interesting Yeah Um, second thing is I in one of those little little meetings On the youtube side because it was interesting the comment was Instead of two fists hitting each other What about a flint? striking a rock making a spark that could provide You know the the fire as not not as burning everything down, but the fire is a valuable source of what we need and you know it even It even kind of felt like Like the the rock was a little red and the the flint was a little blue You know it just kind of worked for me on a lot of levels, but I thought you know that that's interesting Is that the flint and the and the stone by themselves are not As effective as they are if they're together making something from the friction of contact Um, so it was just a it was just a little throwaway comment in the middle of the piece and I thought wow That's really good. I like that Um, so then the last thing is For what it's worth. Um My thinking skills program has Blossomed I guess It started off as a little small thing and now it's gotten to the point where It's it goes from thinking thoughts saving placeholders making things Playing games telling stories living flow and being you It's it's this framework and it's it's very individually set up Which kind of makes sense because that's kind of how I work It certainly plays well with others But the last thing that I got to was this weird understanding that a symphony Is the best representation of What I think a life is There's multiple levels occurring over time Rising falling it has movements and you know all that sort of thing and then you can't take one part out of it And have this have it be what it is And so I kind of got to this idea. It's kind of a working title symphony So it's basically symphony except for the me At the end Um, you know, it's a harmonious way to think create play and compose the unique symphony of your life And that's what these tools are and I don't know. I haven't said that to anyone yet. So I would say it here That's it for me those pages in the chat Sure thing And george we're trying to chat over on the matter most so scott if you can put those in the matter most chat that'd be great Okay, I'll I'll get over there by next time. Awesome I just don't want to get distracted. Yeah, exactly cool. Uh, good. Then we had Gil Doug Judy Yeah, thank you cherry. Bye everybody. Um Um, cherry, thank you for the new addiction in my life. Uh, you know, I have not been regular on OGM But here I am now um, I I wonder I'm there There's so much good stuff going on just even in this community the acronyms that y'all have been rattling off over the last couple of weeks. Um I need some help figuring out how to navigate all the action And still have a life So if anybody would care to chat with me about that offline, I'd love to hear that I've just added added a note in my ever note of You know websites to keep to scan and keep track of on a regular basis not newsy things but things like this they need to be present to and interactive with I'm I'm perplexed why this conversation is mostly all guys Conversations at a time. I find and I'm asking that not just out of a you know of inclusion balance story, but um, I find that The richness of conversations is very very different When they're diverse in many different dimensions and uh, we're you know, we're predominantly male white geeky here. So Here's that. Um A couple of things um reflecting what Doug said back at the beginning of hall and um and I'm sorry. Let's just lost the thread who was just speaking before Scott Fernando floris offered an interesting provocation the other day in a meeting we were in you said, you know What if we had what if we had conversations and meetings in which we didn't share opinions and we didn't problem solve What might open up? And that's another version of the of the rock of the flint and the stone um, you know We need different kinds of conversations that that that that spark something using that metaphor that generates something new um I or the last year or two In my bubble, I don't encounter much on the right. I don't have the stomach to watch a lot of the youtube's I periodically Say to Jane let's go watch fox news for a while and I can handle it for about three minutes So I'm you know, I'm part of that problem. Um, but over the past couple years I've become very dear friends with fellow on the right supply side economist trump voter Um, we love each other. We have really interesting conversations together Uh, I thought that I would show him the light on all sorts of things which maybe I have But for it to be an actual friendship. I need to be open to him changing me also That's happened something and it's rich and delicious and You know, it's it's it's a model of something. I don't know how that scales and other people working on that But I think that that conversation is deeply important At the same time, I think I posted this. Thank you Pete for helping get into the chat. I posted it there that You know I appreciated Doug's challenge of not jumping conclusions too quickly But here we are in you know in a multi causality world. That's also polycentric We we don't have the same kind of shared experience At the national scale that we did when I was a kid Then everybody's inhabiting different realities from that stuff and we have occasional actual criminal activity Which I think is what's on the table right now. So it makes it a very difficult conversation personal dimension I am I'm Orbiting or dancing a lot between deep reflection and a commitment to action on the things that I that I care about And it's a challenging balance both in terms of time and also personal center In terms of the action stuff. I got my second jab yesterday. That's good Consulting businesses cranking up after a year of almost nothing. We had a major client last February February the last march, I guess who said we really want to do this We're swamped with keeping our supply chain alive Go away come back and we'll come back later and I came back month after month and finally I said just like go away We'll get back to you. That was may Supply chain manager saying this is the hardest supply chain situation I've ever dealt with in my life Chiefs not managers chief supply chain officer Well a couple of days ago. They called back said, okay, we're ready to go And so we revised and proposed a meeting with them next week. That's very cool And the money flow will be nice and And it challenges me to how to put sufficient attention to the new escapades that I'm trying to design So it's it's a good. It's it's good resourcing of my prior life And it's a new life waiting to get born here and finding Finding a way to give it sufficient attention Is is a is a very present challenge for me um, and all of it deeply enriched by the deep reflection of conversations like these and other groups have been like this that are you know It's part it's it's I guess it's the story of slowing down to go fast as the navy as the navy seals say, um uh, fast as slow fast as slow slow as smooth as wait smooth as fast How's it go? Damn it some anybody in the navy here? Yeah, um I know where you're going, but I'll I'll find it. It's in my brain. It's in my brain. Of course scott. Did you understand this? Uh, yeah, it was a quick comment about gill saying how I don't know how this scales So The thought that comes to mind is that I know a thousand people you know a thousand people Yeah, we're one step away from a million two steps away from a billion and that's how it scales. Thank you Thank you. It's good because it it it it really needs the the full embodied personal dimension And so it's a good answer. Thank you and the quote was slow as smooth smooth as fast. Thank you, pete and um a tiny story A friend of mine a long time ago when paintball was was big and I I I haven't really done any paintball battles But he was saying like it's weird in that he learned That when he was a rookie paintball player, he was just like all panicked like he was going to get shot He says all you really need to do is like calm down. You can just walk up and shoot people because they're busy going like Guns jam don't know what to do And and so just just being slow and being mindful actually really works because you get you get whatever you need to do Kind of done. Yep Um, you see this you see this you see this a lot of martial arts as well. Yeah, exactly And my sport is aikido so it's close to that mind so Back to what you said about fernando floras and all that like Boom dialogue is exactly what you described and that dates back to david boom and post wars and kind of stuff Uh, and also quicker meeting is a lot like that a quicker meeting for worship and meeting for business Isn't also a lot like that. So there's a there's a bunch of models that have existed for a while About getting together and not being very analytic and then also in you just don't understand Deb Tannen talks about gender differences and one of my early earliest girlfriends Basically made me aware that I don't actually need you to troubleshoot and offer suggestions to fix this thing I'm talking about. I actually just need you to listen and hear me and I'm like I couldn't it took me a while for that to internalize. I was like, wait, what? I I assume you've seen the masterful youtube about the headache I think I think so I'll find it and post it up. Please that sounds great And let's make our way through the through the queue. I had dug judy john Okay, uh last weekend I had an amazing experience which kind of builds on this slow theme We had basically a hundred graduate students in economics together for three days in zoom And the story for me is how amazingly effective it was When you took the time to let everybody in the group all the little postage stamps around the screen Ask their questions and keep going So like here I might want to ask gill a question And then the way I do that would lead him to want to ask me back a question And everybody's patiently enjoying that conversation Because they know that the time will come when they can be in that And what was striking was to feel the whole group Slowly move into a deeper appreciation Of what the framework was that was being discussed Which was basically about the way money flows in society And it turns out that is a great Framework for understanding economy much better than the formal systems that are normally used So you watch this group whose careers are based on learning formalism Slowly accommodate to this discussion And with some relief and appreciation And it was amazing and it just it took time It was three days And these people very few Americans all over the world And what was striking was just watching people from Kenya or South Africa or Estonia Coming into the same conversation slowly together with a shared appreciation And it really heightened my sense of what can be done online Because it was zoom it was all in zoom And you have simple things like if somebody gets up to go to the bathroom In a face to face group It's disruptive here. It's just a little blip And the group maintains its coherence across time It was really a striking experience to me very it was Uh, I hate the word transformational because it's so corny But it you did get a sense that that people came out of it With a deep shared appreciation of the conversation Two quick things before I turn over to Matt. Matt. Um, do you know if anybody logged or described this process and put it online Anyplace because that'd be really really useful for us to just absorb and borrow from And then the second thing is are you familiar with sankey diagrams? This economist named sankey back in britain basically used water to illustrate the flows in the economy And it's really it's really really interesting I put a link in in the matter most to sankey diagrams because it's just a way of visualizing the flows of Of money in that case, but you could visualize a whole bunch of different things. Go ahead matt Are you muted? I was going to ask Doug as well. Um If you know who facilitated that process, I'd like to I'd like to talk to that person And maybe it's just that the rules facilitated the process So More curious there, but I think part of um What's interesting to me and we've talked about this a couple of times on this call is Moving this call from being something that happens on thursday for a period of time that's something that is happening in perpetuity And people come and they go And as long as we sort of know what those rules are people can come and go as they see fit And you know sort of join and ask questions And then we just keep doing it and I think one of the things that I'd like to I'm thinking about Doing I'm close in march is just inviting one of our graphic facilitators just to be taking visual notes of these conversations as well um And see see what that does to to help us keep this perpetual conversation going because I think In that way Doug you talked about how interesting frameworks and concepts and things started to Reveal themselves emerge out of a long period of time. And I think time is one of the things that we've really Undervalue in today's society. We've given it up And I'm not I think we've said time is so much time is money. And so everything has to be less time And my biggest struggle with a lot of our clients is what used to be three-day workshops are now You know 90 minutes And they say well in 90 minutes I want to get our strategy for our business and I want to you know align and mobilize everybody against these concepts and And I say well, here's how far you can get but but you can't Because of the viral and it's not viral. It's something else, right? It's this complex contagions of Sense making together that that create real change um Yeah, so I appreciate the fact that you guys were able to spend three days in that environment and I'd love to participate um With this group in in those kind of models Um Facilitation the It was mostly actually architectural That is the morning and the afternoon Started with three presentations that were all of 10 minutes long Yeah, that just set the frame and then to have an hour and a half of open conversation Uh And that model didn't really require people to facilitate it. It's just people self-organized around the conversation And then on the topic of having long-term conversations as Matt was describing two two quick things One is joey ito used to have an irc channel That was always open and he was doing business on the irc channel in public view It was really fascinating and he also had a bot on the channel called the joey bot And you could if you knew enough to run the commands you could query the joey bot About the people who were there or have the joey bot do different tasks or a bunch of different things like that And then separately last night no two nights ago I basically stepped into vincent, uh, so invited me into a clubhouse conversation That uh, I was in the last of five hours that he and charles blast had been running And like the night before or two days earlier charles had hosted a clubhouse call Or club room or whatever they're called that ran six hours And i'm like, I don't know how you did how you do that. It's exhausting But they were in there and and and it was really pretty cool and vincent and I talked a little bit sense about how It's an evanescent conversation But you get rapid intimacy because you have high quality voice Which does that you can read so much from people's tone And you know and and all of that and uh and yet and yet me and and my brain for all these years It's incredibly frustrating for me to be in any in any meaningful and interesting conversation And not be able to say oh go here look here, you know, here's some resources and here's uh Here's some stuff that might be useful to you So I had I had this multi multi emotionally layered kind of experience of the the clubhouse conversation Vincent, I don't know if you want to jump in on that Yeah, so I'm like simultaneously frustrated because clubhouse is like all in the moment A lot of people are complaining about it like being such a big time sink because it's like People have FOMO and so if there's three rooms going on with three really interesting talks You kind of it's like being at a conference where like you want to like be at like different sessions that are going on and you can't so you you pick one and You can never get that time back Like it's like you you're never going to get to go back to that event So it's that kind of feeling but online where You basically feel like you have to be in the room because if you miss something really you could miss a really interesting nugget that Will just be then lost in the void for eternity if you weren't there Um and so I feel worse Yeah, but at the same time though, there's a different level of conversation that comes from Being vulnerable with complete strangers with no video just hearing one person talk at a time hearing their voice and Knowing that you're not recorded and you can kind of say exactly what You you think you should say at that moment. So it's it kind of goes both ways Yeah, I I'm a huge fan if anyone wants to invite send me a message in mad or most I already sent some Matt I got you Yeah, just send me your number so I could uh text it to you and then um Yeah, actually, I'll be hosting a room at one talking about like micro economies and like parallel economic systems um with jubilee from game b um, so that's Hoping it won't go too long, but it might And it might be interesting to host to have uh a matter most Channel running in parallel with a clubhouse room. I don't know. I mean does that break clubhouse's rules or Dynamics because if you could be talking and sharing And there's just no video that seems to me to be like a great leap forward So, um during a last talk that we did on tuesday It was basically like people sharing their startups Social entrepreneurs and then talking about what they needed help with Um, and so we had a google doc that was going in parallel To the room where people could kind of add Notes and resources people were like, oh, you should check out this like fellowship or this thing And so people could kind of like add so we had like I was scribing and then people we also made it like an editable doc But yeah, I would love to kind of have like some parallel um Tech tools to be able to augment the experience The the main barrier to that is a lot of people actually like clubhouse because they can listen into these really intimate conversations while they're Doing the dishes while they're In the little like hour of a day that you would put on music Or when you're multitasking or put on a podcast people are going to clubhouse Did the google group did the google doc enhance or inhibit the conversation? Did it how did it affect that conversation? Um, I'll probably be able to report better on that next week because we set up the doc like in the middle of it Kind of and so it was a little rough And also clubhouse doesn't let you like they don't have URLs in the bio So like people have to like type in something so we're going to have like for the room a URL Like a short link that people can go to And I think once we do that we'll get a better handle on how many people want to actually Contribute to something outside of just audio during in in a clubhouse room um Awesome. Thank you Scott briefly and then I want to go back to the queue and we're not going to get through everybody because we're 15 minutes from the end of our time right Very very quick comments. Um, I had mentioned My interest in being more synchronous less asynchronous I consider this synchronous time because we are all doing the same thing at the same time Even though we're not in the same place And it just occurred to me the clubhouse via pod like in comparison to a podcast Same thing conversation going on conversation going on listen to what you want, but it's happening right now And we're all experiencing the same time and I think that's that might be what makes it so powerful It's like the snapchat for voice For conversations or something. I don't know we never watch tv together anymore We never sit in the salons and listen to music together anymore. We never You know like I not that was a little bit too strong. It's not that we never but as a society We've lost those things. So yeah, I've been spending a lot of time there. I think the constraint of the medium is brilliant Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Let's go Judy John Julian I'm just finding myself torn between conflicting nonprofit organizations and the amount of energy that is being taken by each of them So that I'm on five or six hours of zoom calls per day Plus trying to do offline work to generate content to go into those calls so As intriguing as the idea of a continuous call would be I it's totally overwhelming in terms of my energy availability If I'm going to get effective work done in these other arenas So I kind of like this hour and a half. It's usually uplifting Mm-hmm Agreed and in some sense our metamost chats and the ogm list are continuous I mean there we can post there whenever but we can catch up on our own time and I like the discourse organization by topic too because I'm more interested in keeping up with Some topics than other topics. Yeah So I think we're just in kind of the growth stage of exploring a lot of different available tools And what's going to work best for the different kinds of things that we all want to do Um And hopefully We can keep the craziness of the general word at bay with awareness, you know And with careful intervention with those we can influence Mm-hmm. Well, uh Thanks, jude. Anything else you want to check in on? No, okay, uh john julian torch Okay, uh, I just like to reflect on a couple of threads. There's so much rich material that's been mentioned um quickly a gill talked about You know, just the over several had people to talk about the overwhelm but in particular he talked about You know, how do you possibly keep track of all these things? and There was a period in my work when, uh We're doing pretty intense Consulting with teams and with multiple teams, but the same people on the teams but in different roles And it got it was so intense. So we saw each other. So we were able to say, okay You are going to watch for this thing, you know, you are in charge of b2b internet You know, and you tell us what the Developments are in that space. You are going to watch this other thing Now when we do a check-in like this at we'd at our lunch meeting We would say, okay check in You you can say a personal thing, but you also report on your portfolio You report on the particular thing that you're supposed to be watching and if you haven't been watching it, you say, well, you know, I I'm sorry, but I got I got on this other thing and I'll report next time. There's an impeachment trial. I couldn't help it Yeah, right exactly something like that Second thought I I love I really like Doug's story about the economists um, and I'm very encouraged because normally My experience with economists and Doug's experience with economists It's hard. It's very hard to bring this group along and Just two thoughts you don't have to respond now Doug or at all if you don't want to but I think some keys there were the the 10 the the alternation between the ted effect and the open Unlimited effect in other words 10 minute conversations for the kickoff one two three and then now we go to open space so that that orchestrated alternation between A time constraint and focus that's one important thing, but the other important thing Even though this was global, I think there's you need you need I don't know what to call it exactly. It's not a fig leaf. Maybe it's a grass skirt You need something that that connects the people I mean we we here we have like we're wearing three or four grass skirts in the sense There's there's so many things that we collect them Individually check into then we can say that the other people here have checked into those things So, you know, we're like tied together in multiple ways, but I think the fact that this group was all economists Gave them permission to be less economists in the traditional sense You know, I mean other factors, of course multiple factors international youth Worlds coming apart, you know, I mean many many factors going on there, but I think economists had had Something to do with it the other quick observation I've tried to watch rocks news I've forced myself to watch, you know a little more than five minutes But I find it Well, I get drawn into these situations some of them are on clubhouse, you know some of them are not But if you're in a room with a really articulate really empowered libertarian It's different It's different than than this meeting here. I mean some of us have an understanding of that mindset And some of us, you know agree with parts of that mindset sure You know turning poor people into into entrepreneurs small entrepreneurs. Sure. Sure good thing Uh, you know, there's a bunch of things that we wouldn't say no to But we might question the universality Of some of the pronouncements like if government does it it's not going to work. It's gonna be wrong If corporate if big corporations do it is probably gonna be wrong. Yeah, that's we don't want big we don't want big corporate We don't want government. Yeah we want People who want to get really rich they're really smart and they're really like, you know the top 0.01 percent Oh, what about those other folks? Well, you know, you got to play Your thing failed There's lots of cash sloshing around so just get stay on the merry-go-round and come it'll come around again and you get on the merry-go-round, you know and It's a worldview it it's I think I think a lot of you have encountered this worldview and you go Wow, you know, wow, I guess if you lived in that world you could think that that would work For a mo for a lot of the population and that we wouldn't be going down the tubes as a planet doing that, but if if you're Open to it. You realize and you know Those entrepreneurial venture funded things Are just if not more susceptible to the things you don't like About the institutions that you've decided already don't work Just mentioning that is a kind of a dialogue I'm participating in and You know That's enough That's enough. I think All right, thank you Well, john, I think you're I think you're right in that Structure wins and as we begin to participate in the structures to change them They begin to change they begin to change us And unless you're really really disciplined Yeah, I mean I've I've seen a lot of startups and entrepreneurs who set out to change the world But the minute that they start getting the big contracts with the big companies and all that kind of stuff Then they're in the business of being in business and then they become part of the economies and you know So I think that there's some really fundamental things that Have there has to be this third space for people to To create where they don't have to participate in that That those structures to create, right? Sure And this is just a quick personal note I really appreciate kevin's inputs on these talks because I would see him as someone who I don't I don't really know the background But completely but see him as someone who's transcended through past and out of that entirely meritocratic Entrepreneurial thing and said hey, well, okay. Okay. Okay. I'm going to use parts of this But I'm going to make it work for more people. Yes. I really like that I really appreciate it. I'm waiting for kevin to write his autobiography. So I want to see the memoirs. Okay Let's go Julian dorge vinson claus, but I'd love to wrap near the half hour. So we won't make it through everybody on that list One nice thing about going later and it would be quick. I have a pretty quick singles to people who came before me Because unlike hank in the past week. I haven't gotten much time to think because I'm spending so much time in meetings And matt, I wanted to mention that you're up to 13 now. I'm not watching the trial either I don't consider it a good use of my time because I pretty much gave up on the us a couple of years ago When they indicated that they were okay with children dying in concentration camps and I'm very deliberately using the term concentration camp Given my upbringing. I was as a kid. I was frequently introduced to people with numbers tattooed down their arms and This is where I disagree with the previous outlier in the call, which is a long-term thinking. Yeah, that's critical But you've got to stop the monster as soon as you can So getting back to rechecking in right now my technical life is tied up with fighting with c sharp net and the neo 4j interface Which is critical. It's it'll let me finish step two of my three-step plan to world domination Excellent And on an unrelated note, I was going to throw in In terms of entrepreneurship and capitalism and libertarianism A recently heard an interesting story about how Howard Hughes killed killer aircraft to the detriment of the usa And I don't have a link for that because it was an oral presentation But I can dig up some more information if anybody would like I killed killer aircraft. Yes Oh, not a story. I know Interesting Hiller with an H Yeah, yeah, hi ller Right And if you're familiar with the bay area, then it's the same Hillers and the Hiller aircraft museum Hiller aviation and the museum. Yeah, cool I we will look that up Thanks, julian. Let's go to george vinson plus Hi, um, I have a question. How many of you are using roam roam? Good question. Anybody nobody here's using room dog. What what what is it? roam It's roam research calm. It is a thought processor Um, which I think is a tremendous improvement on the brain. I use the brain also Um, but it is a basically a note taking method But it is ridiculously easy to create links and you get back links and forward links and it just Brings together all of your thinking And um, it has transformed my life and I'm absolutely convinced that everybody every knowledge worker Every scholar every thinker Is going to be on it within a year or two It is just and it's getting the brain like Um Interfaces with it because it's got it's got an open api So a lot of people are putting stuff in it so that all those links can get automatically diagram So you can think visually you can think in words It it has made me 20 iq points higher, but absolutely without a doubt And I just had the thought five minutes before I got on here That what see I've been using the brain less four or five Months to dump in my present thinking all my past thinking is in the brain and is in devon think um And i'm bringing slowly bringing a lot of stuff from devon think into Into rome, but it occurred to me. What if I put my current thinking? The last four months of my thinking in constructing my mind skills templates um Which are mental methods that you can automatically plunk down and then fill in as an aid to your thinking What if I put all my work into gp gp t3? And asked it develop to develop templates And then you could retire Yeah So it will be a gigantic thinking tool. Does anybody can anybody point me to How I can find out more about the most efficient way I mean obviously I can google it, but is there an efficient way is anybody using gp t3? No, huh nobody has I think that I think you have an opinion. What's the matter with this group? You're all thinking for yourselves We've uh, we in in free jerry's brain. Uh, we've talked a little bit about using gp t3 on something like jerry's brain Um, I don't I don't think anybody's gotten around to it um, I rome is great, um and Uh, it's it's awesome for some people and it doesn't quite click for other people. There's there's other tools called There's one obsidian. I use something called stroll um, the there's a class of tools rome like tools, uh that kind of burst on the scene this last year and and have Really energized the ability for people to keep track of things and add icky points to their you know to their ability to manage information And we've got doesn't have to be rome That there are a lot of different schemes for doing that But basically is creating a second brain or that creating a another brain in which you can see We can get it all in there and then see connections that you wouldn't Wouldn't I really say stuff comes up that? I didn't know I had in there and that I didn't know was connected Right, we've got uh scott and julian with comments and I think what scott's about to say is one of the things I wanted to add which is the latest version of the brain Uh has rome features in the notes field like like harlan saw what was coming and baked it in it's not quite Parallel functionality to rome and I don't know the difference and I haven't I haven't walked that path myself So scott and julian knows I have a I have a youtube video of How to run rome inside the brain right which is so funny to me you can't believe it Yeah, that my experience with with harlan has been that he is that's his area where he's actively developing and the neat thing is He already had the brain built so all he has to do is build the notes. They built it up from the ground up It looks just like the rome in inline unmentioned links Suggested links back links. It's all in there and that's just their first version of it So they're going to surpass where I think rome is never going to be able to get to the brain What the brain has built in their visual interface? So I think the brain v12 has got it all right now Interesting So I was going to mention Uh, I was going to mention that for people working in knowledge science this whole idea of backward links Uh has been commonplace in the knowledge field for 25 years Or if if you work with rda for semantic graphs, um In triple stores, right? That's been Well known when I went back to nasa in 2002 to work on the shuttle program. It was already a matter of picking which technology to use So there's a big litany of of having the power to do that. It's somewhat more usable now that personal computers are much more powerful But then uh because it's one of my favorite topics. I'm going to link this into using a graph databases versus relational databases Cool And we've And we've just uh crossed the half hour mark. I'd love to just keep our calls to 90 minutes despite uh Everything else just because we're in lots and lots of zoom and and we I could do this all day actually just because of you all because I love I love sort of ransacking our mutual consciousness In this friendly way. It's uh, it's really great. So so with that, let me just say thank you for this call and uh Take us out and see you on the on the inner tubes in in the clubhouses and the matter most and the Discourses and the emails and the oh my god, everywhere's But uh, but thank you Yeah, and FOMO I got FOMO now