 Falling let's check in on how bond markets are trading Jonathan Sheridan from fixed securities joining us Jonathan Good afternoon to you now certainly the bond sell-off continuing What is it the worst sell-off in about 25 years or so? How Significant has this sell-off been relative to what we're typically seeing the equities market Good afternoon. Yeah, absolutely. That's the continuing commentary that we've seen particularly Since the Trump election result is that you know the word route has been used probably more frequently than any others I guess it's quite frustrating when you're actually Participating in that market day-to-day. So, you know the US 10 year and our own 10 year government bond For example has only lost about four to five percent of its capital value And as you say, this is the worst kind of sell-off in terms of yields rising in the last 20 or 25 years or so So when you compare that to equity markets, you know, we've had several instances in the last 10 or 15 years Where equities have sold off 50% or more You know you consider that the really bad sell-off gives you a 5% mark-to-market loss on your bonds We we really are taking comfort from the fact that bonds are a defensive asset class Yes Well, that was actually gonna lead to my next question still a good defensive asset class despite the the the routers as you allude to Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. And you know, that's what that's what you expect I mean, you know, we typically don't trade too many government bonds here either You know, we are big fans of the corporate bond sector So where you get paid a return for taking corporate credit risk and that further insulates you from the pure interest rate exposure that you get in a government bond For example, so, you know, we've been liking some medium to longer dated US corporate bonds with a fair amount of credit risk in there So Dell 2028 for example that I mentioned before that's only sold off about point eight or point nine percent in the last couple of weeks So, you know, when you get a proper properly diversified corporate bond portfolio, you're even further insulated What about some of those shorter dated high yielding bonds? Do you like those? Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, we've been looking to the US market for some of those We've also got some here, you know, we run an origination program here at FIG and we've sold in the last week a four-year Issue for eight point three five percent from a rail leasing business. So, you know more diversification as well We typically find as no doubt you're well aware of that Financials and resources dominate in our share markets and our clients are looking for diversification away from those sectors All right now just while we are talking those local bonds I AG they've launched a listed hybrid offering Do you think there's some value in these securities? Yeah, look, I think they've certainly been getting better over the last couple of years I mean structurally we don't really like them I think the untested nature of the non viability clauses in them Means that, you know, they're much much more like equity than we previously saw prior to January 2013 in the hybrid space The margin on this one is relatively attractive 4.7 to 4.9 percent over the bank bill swap rate has been the the initial pricing that has been offered to the market So look, it's a decent yield, you know with with yields rising the bank bill swap rate You know in the high ones nearly nearly two percent at the moment So the outright returns is pretty pretty good, but for the risk and the complexity of these securities I think we would rather stay away from them. All right fantastic Jonathan will wrap it up there, but it's been great talking to you Thank you so much. Thanks Leanne pleasure Jonathan Sheridan joining us that live from figs securities a quick find