 Yeah, this is Jim Hogue, and this is the House of Poo Corner. And this is the second broadcast at Orca. I think we have a very exciting story today. It's a story about those people who cover up the truth and those people who seek the truth. And I find that one of my favorite themes. And it's also a story of gatekeepers and those who open the gates. It's about a 70-year-old story. It's had its moments of being exposed openly, debated openly, reported openly. Kennedy talked about the wonderful possibilities of geoengineering for agriculture. President Johnson talked about the possibilities of geoengineering as a military weapon to keep the United States safe from the evildoers. And if you go back far enough, which is what we're going to be doing today with Ian Baldwin, you will see how the story gradually became muddied and eventually covered up. And Ian will tell us how that happened and why. Ian is the publisher emeritus of Chelsea Green. He founded Chelsea Green. And he has written nine articles on the subject that we are going to be talking about today from a purely scientific and historical and factual point of view. So we're looking forward to hearing that. And I guess that's all I need. Oh, I did want to mention Cynthia Johnson, who put me onto geoengineering many years ago. And when I had my radio program, I interviewed the visionaries who were covering the topic. And they went, they didn't pussyfoot around. They went right to Chemtrails and explained what the Chemtrails were. And we have one of Ilana Freeland's books here, Chemtrails, Harp, and the full spectrum dominance of planet Earth. And she has another book called Under an Ionized Sky. So that's second half. We're going to be doing two programs. And the first half will be more introductory. And the second half might get into the nitty gritty of what's up there in the sky now. So Ian Baldwin, tell us whatever you think we ought to know in the way of introduction. And we'll go from there. OK, Jim. One small correction. I co-founded Chelsea Green with my wife, Barnagall. But we both started it in 1984. And yes, I got interested in this subject because a mutual friend, John Ford, in 2005, tried to tell me about Chemtrails. And I had enough on my plate, 9-11, other things. And I felt this is overload, stimulation overload. So I held up my hand and said, no, I don't want to hear about it. Then a year later, I had to get up one warm mid-October night. I think that was actually 2005. And John tried to talk to me in 2004 and saw a vast trail in the sky, night sky. It was a full moon, so it was illuminated. It was as far as I could see to the east and to the west, so many miles long and seriously big and nothing else. So I was dumbfounded, frankly. I mean, I was really dumbfounded. And I do remember saying to myself, I think I said it out loud even, my God, John was right. But I also thought, waking up the next day, what's this? Am I going to go down that rabbit hole? And I decided not to. But I've always been an observer of the realm above us. And so I just paid more attention. And over the years, I began to see more and more evidence of things that clearly weren't contrails, except if you go into a room filled with liars, you can maybe be persuaded. But so I finally found myself a decade later in 2015 really frustrated. I guess I had visited a couple of sites like Dane Wiggington's site, and you've interviewed Dane. And realized that, oh, the discussion is in a ghetto. It's ghettoized in cyberspace. But it's not touched by academics, by environmentalists, and of course by media, major print media, New York Times, Washington Post, et cetera. So I realized real progress couldn't happen on this issue because, for lack of a better term, the establishment had a solid front. Anything you see up there that is strange is an, in fact, an illusion or a hallucination. It's just normal contrails. And keep it under advisement. And normal traffic. And normal traffic. So I got introduced through a mutual friend, Lin-Margulis, her son, Dorian Sagan, said, well, Ian, I know a scientist who is also pretty excited about this. You said my father. Carl Sagan. Yeah, Carl was his father. Both parents were deceased when this happened. So I called Marvin. We had a very long conversation. We decided to, because he lived in San Diego. And the air there does not permit anything but a very rare contrail. Because it's dry. And Marvin could tell they weren't flying up at 35,000, 40,000. They were flying lower down. And none of the scientific criteria were met for contrails. And the skies were getting whitened. The blue skies, the traditional normal San Diego blue skies were no longer blue. They were getting milky at the end of a day's operations. So he was being a chemist, among other things. He was furious, because what goes up must come down. And if it's metals, good chance there hazardous. So we got talking and said, well, let's at least try to broach this issue, get it out for discussion. And I had various leads to, oh, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, the Reuters, and worked those so that this little op-ed, seven, 800 words could be considered. Got nowhere. Stonewall didn't even get a response. And there he was, a published nuclear chemist, geoscientist, and myself, a publisher, not even the courtesy of a reply. So then we understood, OK, it ain't up for discussion outside of the ghetto. And I don't mean the ghetto as a pejorative term. No, I understand. You mean a dictionary definition of the ghetto. And so we agreed forensic scientific research had to be done. Now, a lot of people were there before us. In fact, the story goes back, as my most recent piece for Vermont Independent traces it to 1997-8, when the first serious reporter covered it for environmental news service. And so we're late coming into this game. But we're the first people, or I should say Marvin is the first person who is doing actual hands-on research. What did this entail? This entailed collecting rainwater from me, snow water from other people, snow water. And there were already existing databases of rainwater. In that early period of spring of 2015, Wiggington and I and Herndon all watched very interesting video. And it showed coal flyhash being taken away in trains. And the videographer, who I don't think ever identified himself, it was a male, said, guess where this is going? So a light bulb went up, because all of us were wondering, including Dane, who'd been in the game for six or seven years, what is it they're spraying and what's the evidence for? Can you clarify the term coal flyhash? OK. Coal burned in, I think it's hundreds or thousands of degrees Fahrenheit, gives off a microscopically small ash particle debris. The Indians are still sending it up into the atmosphere. The Chinese, I think, are still sending it up, although I think they're also trying to come to terms with it very, very, because as an environmentalist in the 70s, I remember fighting for scrubbers. They were called scrubbers, putting the stacks. So electrostatic stuff. So that these microscopic particles couldn't escape into the atmosphere. Now in the United States and Europe, that's the case. So they're trapped as a waste stream, a huge waste stream, I mean, seriously big. Actually, it's used for a number of commercial products. It's used for cement, for roads. It's used for agriculture as some kind of a fertilizer. I haven't really figured out how it becomes a fertilizer. And so it has a number of different quote unquote legal legitimate uses. Marvin found some scientific work done in Spain studying coal fly ash in Europe. And when it goes into the atmosphere, the atmosphere is loaded with rivers of moisture, far vaster than the Amazon, OK? So they interact. They coalesce the water molecules, the H2O, around these nanoparticulates and form clouds and rain. In fact, you can manage the clouds. You can attenuate their rainfall and send them further down and let them drop it and dumps later on. What an idea. And you can also cause drought. We haven't gotten there yet. So Marvin decided on the basis of this Spanish scientific work, which identified, I think, 33 elements that leached out when coal fly ash precipitated, collect the water, and then test it. And you had a lot of bad hombres in there. You had aluminum. You had arsenic. You had mercury. You have radionucleides, barium, only a few of which had been tested by people in the geoengineering resistance movement, the ghettoized movement. Shame on them. They found unusual levels of aluminum and barium. Those were the two primary candidates and sometimes strontium. So Marvin then found, whoa, that's not all, and added about seven other elements. You have to get a fairly sophisticated lab to get up to 30-plus, and those labs are run by universities, for the most part. But commercial labs can do up to a certain number. And he took that and wrote a page on it. He took that and wrote a paper for a journal he had written for before, so they knew him, called Current Science, which is the Journal of the Indian Academy of Sciences in India. And he published the first geoengineering paper. Now the editor was hit on. We know that. They tried to get him to rescind the paper. And what was the date? June of 2015, I believe. Then Marvin decided to, Dr. Herndon decided to, let's get this to the health care medical public. And he got it accepted. Everything is peer reviewed that he does. This is a man who's published numerous papers in the Royal Academy of Science in London, the proceedings of the National Academy in Washington. He's not a slouch. So the gatekeepers can ignore him, but they can't attack what he's written. Exactly. But you can be one in 14,000 scientific papers that have been peer reviewed are, in fact, retracted. Usually, because someone has discovered false data, some kind of shenanigans, Herndon had been publishing for roughly 40 years and never had anything retracted. Most scientists don't. So he got it published. I've forgotten the name of the journal. But it was a public health, Western-based journal. And within three weeks, the editor retracted the paper. Now, interestingly, the man who visited the editor, based phase, took the trouble to just show up on his doorstep and interview him, then made the mistake, I think, of boasting about it on Facebook. The next paper I do for the Vermont Independent will have that boast on Facebook in it. Number 10. Number 10. So it turns out the man who did this, a man named Jay Reynolds, had an earlier track record getting environmental news service. Or I shouldn't say getting, because they claim they did on their own recognizance, but he spoke to them in very harsh terms. Hey, apologize to your readers for publishing Will Thomas' stories about chemtrails. Now, Will Thomas never used the word chemtrails. You just changed main characters here. I did. I'm sorry. I went back 20 years because this guy this disinformation agent is still at work on the subject 20 years, not 20, close to 20 years, 15 years later. Now, why does he show up? He doesn't show up if you stay in the ghetto. It's when you get out of the ghetto and you go to an environmental news service, two or three years later, Earth Island Journal, it can't be tolerated because it could creep into the mainstream from there. So it's news management, OK? He may not even be paid. If you've read about the CIA and understand how it functions, there is no formula. People volunteer. That's true. People volunteer. They're patriotic citizens. They believe in the mission. So Marvin fought back. Marvin's a fighter. He's not just a scientist. He's a fighter. He earned it. But they held firm. There was nothing wrong with the paper. He was touching on a forbidden subject that officially had no validity or proof, despite what Marvin said, which is there is very good evidence. It's called fly ash. Not talkable. That interests me because I've never heard anybody argue the point about it. Because as you said, many, many years ago, the environmentalists all lined up for scrubbers in the coal plants. So where are they now? If they were fighting for it then, where are they now? Well, Jim, think about if you're in a street fight. Now I worked in the environmental movement in the early 70s. Yes. Chelsea Green was the leader. It wasn't around in the early 70s. Chelsea Green. Later. So in the early 70s, really smart lawyers who were idealists signed up. When we fought for the Marine Mammal Protection Act, Bill Butler, the EDF lawyer stood up against 30 lawyers and won. But the war was being lost. Battles were won, but the war was being lost right on up to the present moment. That leads into a whole different discussion. We've only got five minutes left. And the next program, which will be coming up shortly, we'll talk about that. Anyway, you're going to have to help me reconnect here because we've strayed over a couple of points. Yes. The Marvin Herndon expertise has been ignored. And the wonderful research by Wilson? Did you say the other guy? No, he wasn't a researcher. He was a dead-on reporter. And his name was William Thomas. William Thomas. I'm sorry. That's OK. So those two are the main characters in the story of the suppression of incontrovertible information. Information, not proof. Information. And yeah, Marvin, he is also besieged by someone at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Sigili or someone who comes out of nowhere. Oh, I remember him. Wasn't he one of the 9-11? Oh, he could have been. Deniers? He could have been, Jim. There was a famous Italian who made it. No, this guy is a Hungarian. And the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. And he shows up out of nowhere. Marvin, having had 40 years of publishing scientific papers, some of which were highly original, got his second and third paper on this subject retracted. Statistically impossible. Politically possible. So at that point, because the third paper was also a medical paper, also published in the West. Again, I've forgotten the journal, but it's environmental medicine broadly speaking. So at that point, we gathered together around the Skype campfire and agreed, can't pursue this subject in Western journals. Must find non-Western science journals. So he has been publishing since then, mainly Indian, not exclusively, journals. They operate under the same rigors as a U.S. journal. But they're not located in the U.S. And they're not subject to the political pressures of fiction or unspoken that are exerted on scientific journals. So since then, we have published, I was a co-author on one, he picked up a doctor, an MD, who actually works for the government, who has co-authored the medical aspects of using coal fly ash as an aerosol to do a variety of purposes. We should get into the purposes at some point. We will do that. So in case those of you have missed the second half, it actually warms the planet. That's the net effect, and that should be the subject of the next part of the next segment. It's too complicated to start now, but we'll do that in the next half hour. Good. Anyway, we've now got 15 or 16 published and non-retracted, peer-reviewed scientific papers. The best repression is silence. It's much the best. So far, in Western media, I'm talking mainstream media. Well, also Amy Goodman in that crowd. I include, she's in that. She's mainstream media. Yeah, she's mainstream media. Western media, Western academia, Western environmentalists, and of course, politicians. Well, that goes without saying. Completely verboten to even talk about the possibility. So it goes back to who is your adversary? You asked, who was the adversary back in the 70s and even 80s? Well, it might have been McDonald's or it might have been Union carbide. The adversary now is called the Pentagon. Okay, because they need it. Well, we have to wind this up. Your guest has been Ian Baldwin, publisher emeritus of Chelsea Green, which built its reputation on environmental literature. Environmental and agricultural and food and healthy living. And here we are at home plate with one of the leaders in the movement and thank you for watching and we'll see you in the next half hour.