 One of the most important and powerful effective strategies for marketing your business, for growing your opportunities is to understand how to get referrals. How do we, whom do we even approach referrals and how do we approach them in a way that is both gracious and effective? So that's what we're gonna talk about today and I have a guest speaker to share with you. Her name is Karish Sminkie. She's one of my clients and she herself is a great business and marketing coach. In fact, I think she has a more marketing experience than me. But let me bring her on. I will, let me say a bit about her and I'll bring her on. So Karissa has 20 years of experience in the corporate world doing marketing and business development and leading teams. And for the past, I think year or so, she has been, I'll let her explain more, but she's been transitioning to serving small business owners like you. So that's her passion is to help small business owners and solar printers grow their business and their marketing in a heart-centered way. So something, you know, values that we can all relate to. And I'm just excited to share her expertise and her presence with you. So hi, Karissa, great to have you here. Hey there, good morning. Yeah, thanks for doing this. So Karissa, you are just to give people context, you are in Seoul today, yeah? Yeah, I'm in Busan, South Korea. I live on the southern coast, about four hours south of Seoul. So I'm actually just getting my day started here on the other side of the world. Yeah, that's great. Well, people are watching this any time of the day or night. So it's perfect wherever they are. So I know you have a lot to share and I'll interject with questions, but is there anything else you want to say about your background, your philosophy, how you like to work with clients? Just give people a context of how you work, how you, what you like to do. Well, I really appreciate that. Yeah, so as you mentioned, I'm a business coach, similar to you. And for me, it's really about creating, creating clarity and movement. You know, it's really about being able to create this collaborative relationship. And I really believe, and I think this is what, your message really resonates with me so deeply because it's not about me telling people how to run any business. It's not just about me giving them this like cookie cutter prescription for how to run a business. It's really about helping them take best practices but then figuring out what's authentic to them. So they can build a business that's really true to who they are. And that's why when I found you, George, that's why your message really resonated. I love the way you really humanize this whole process. And that's, I think that's really similar to the type of work that I do. And that's why your message really resonated. And that's why you're my coach. People are always surprised that I'm a business coach with a business coach, but I'm like, everyone should have a coach. So yeah, that's why I admire your work so much. Thank you. I really, really appreciate that. And, you know, as a, you know, I just, just tell my story about why the topic of referrals is important. When I started out in my business, I had no network in this field. You know, I had some friends and colleagues that were supportive of me emotionally, but they didn't support me in terms of becoming my client. So I had to figure out from the get-go how to get clients, how to get business. And one of the things I stumbled upon early on, so grateful that I stumbled upon it, is getting referrals and creating what you are calling business alliances, finding business allies. So I am such a fan of the strategy. I've been teaching the strategy off and on over the years. I haven't actually talked a whole lot about it recently. So I think that this is gonna be super helpful. And you've also been seeing the importance of business allies. And I'm sure in your, you know, in the corporate world, the same thing, business development, it's a lot about referrals, et cetera. So let's start by, let's start there. Why do you think referrals are important, especially now? And when I say especially now, people sometimes think, well, gosh, there's social media now, right? So why don't you just post things on social media and maybe run Facebook ads? I talk about Facebook ads all the time. So I'm a big fan of that. But yes, those things can work, but why are referrals particularly important in this day and age? Yeah, I'm so glad you phrased it like that. It's no surprise that we're kind of in the same thinking. So first of all, when I think about marketing, I think about marketing as the goal is really to expand your orbit, if you will, right? Your zone of influence, like whose line of vision that you're in. And then the idea is everything we do with marketing is really about just bringing people closer to us. You know, I think we get really overwhelmed with like the vernacular about it. And I think some of the marketing is really becoming a little dehumanized, but marketing is relationship building, right? Everything we do is about getting into someone's peripheral. And then everything is like, how do we nurture this relationship to bring people closer? And the way we do that, I don't know who coined the phrase, but it's developing this like no-like-and-trust factor. So the idea is that you get into someone's line of vision and maybe they see a blog and you've developed a little no-like-and-trust. And so they subscribe to their newsletter. That's them taking one step, well, no-like-and-trust by creating really beautiful content in your newsletter. They take one step closer with a discovery call and you can see how that relationship builds. And in that way, it's like every relationship we have, right, with friends and spouses and every important relationship in our lives. So I think it's really helpful to think about marketing in those terms in that really human way. And so where I think that referrals are more important than ever. And you're right, it's kind of, I think a lot of people think of it as this like old school marketing effort. And it's, you know, it might be old school, but it has never gone out of fashion. And the reason it's important now I think is it's noisier than ever. And also we're building businesses more and more online and developing a no-like-and-trust factor. It's harder online. It just is. You know, when you don't have that human, you know, one-on-one connection with people, it just takes longer. And so when we work with referrals, we're essentially borrowing their no-like-and-trust factor. So we're borrowing their audience and their influence to get more people into our orbit. And then these people have already developed the trust factor. They're already likable to that audience. And so in doing that, we're kind of expediting that process of developing the no-like-and-trust. And that's so important, especially when you're trying to cut through what's really, really noisy nowadays. So I actually think that while this has been, we've been doing this forever, I think it's more important than ever. And I think sometimes we get blinded by, you know, email funnels and social media and all these other things. And sometimes it's just the old-fashioned, one-on-one human connection that really drives our businesses forward. So I agree with you. I think it's more important than ever. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, there's kind of cycles in marketing and in kind of human social development. And I feel like everything always comes back around. And now I feel like we're in really the last decade or two where digital has become such a big part of our lives. We connect more and more just online. And we connect more and more en masse, you know, like posting something and expecting our friends and family to see it and engage with it. Like you said, it's become increasingly rare, for example, that people reach out to me one-to-one in a thoughtful way. You know, back then, like back before social media was this big, it was normal to make cold calls or to send letters or whatever. But now it's like, you just expect people to kind of see you online. And like I preach Facebook ads all the time. So of course that's a great way of building a business. But I'll just, let me share my background real quick in terms of my experience with what you're talking about. I, you know, some of those of you who know my background know that I was able to build up my business fairly quickly in the first year. In my first year, I reached my first $10,000 month. I only share the numbers to share that whatever I was doing was viable for business. And the key strategy I did in the first year back then I had not knew nothing about Facebook ads. So I didn't run any Facebook ads. All I did was I kept reaching out to people who had an audience who could benefit from my expertise. I just kept reaching out until I found somebody who was willing to, you know, to say yes. So, and that's how, you know, within a few months I was able to reach my first $10,000 income month because like you said, I borrowed the like, no like trust factor that they already had with their audience. And this is also why I love to feature my clients to my audience because hopefully that helps you all, you know, clients build an audience a bit more quickly. So thank you. Thank you for talking about why it's important. So let's keep going. What, I mean, you have lots of content but you know, one of the things that I think people might wonder as well, how do I get started with thinking in this way and with doing this? Yeah, you know, before I dig into that, you just brought up a really good point. You just said it's so rare that people reach out to you in a really thoughtful one-on-one way. And I just, I see this movement that the more we get into social media, the less social it becomes. And I've been really encouraging people to approach social media the same way they approach their in-person relationships. You know, someone talked to me the other day, they have a Facebook group and they asked me, should I thank people? Send them a little note to say thank you when they join my Facebook group. And I thought, well, what is your brand? Like if your brand is meant to be thoughtful one-on-one interacting, thank somebody for coming to an in-person event, then try that. You know, do that. Reach out in the same way you would in an in-person event. And give it a try. See how it feels, see how people respond. But I think people get intimidated in the social media space and they think there's just one way to do it. And the social media is meant to be social. So again, it's you bring the same principles that work for you in interactions and you bring that to social media and that really resonates with people. So I really appreciate you bringing that up. I wish we could all approach digital and social. This are, you know, our most valued relationships. I think that would make for a really nice space in Facebook too. That'd be great. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what I thought I would do is dig in with what I think are kind of my three foundational questions. So these are the three questions that I use to set the groundwork and the foundation for just about everything I do with clients. I'm always circling back to these three questions. And I think if you can get really clear on these, then everything else becomes a lot simpler. And the tricky thing about these is I think these questions are really simple, but because they're so simple, sometimes people don't take the time to really dig in. And it's worth pausing and taking a look at it. So the three things that I always ask clients at the beginning of our relationship and then any time they're doing a new initiative is who are you serving? And really who are you serving? Who is that person at the heart of themselves? What is the problem that you're solving? What is the challenge that you're solving at the core of it? And then how are you uniquely qualified to solve that problem? So what is it about you that's different than everybody else? Do you say it differently? Do you offer a different message? What is it about your experience and your life that makes you unique about that? So I would say that before you even begin to brainstorm who you wanna do referrals with, a really good place to start is just to get really clear on those three questions. Who do you serve? What problem do you solve? And how are you uniquely qualified to solve it? And that really creates the framework for so much of what we can talk about. And so I thought I would start by just helping people brainstorm who would be good referral sources. And when I said this before you do that actually, so I would love to invite everybody watching this if you are willing, and if you would maybe like additional referral partners, which I hope everybody is open to that, please comment below the video and answer these three questions. And you know what? Every time I answer questions like this, it comes out differently. So don't worry about having to have a perfect answer. Just write what's coming to you right now. You can always edit your comment in the future if you want to, but this is gonna give you some practice to do that. So Chris repeat those questions one more time for us. So who do you serve? What problem do you solve? What problem do you solve? And how are you uniquely qualified to solve it? And how are you uniquely qualified to solve it? Who do you serve? So who is your ideal client or ideal reader, ideal audience? How do you, what problem do you solve for them? So what challenge are they having in their life or what issues are important to them that you help them to resolve or to move forward in? And then third is how do you do it uniquely? Is that right? Yeah, how are you uniquely qualified to solve it? So what about your education, your background, your experience, what about your approach? Really creates the environment where people can solve that challenge. So what is it that's unique about you in that process? And Chris, are you, maybe you could give us an example of how you might answer this right now. I know I'm putting you on the spot, but would you like to? Yeah, so I work with like inspired, heart-centered entrepreneurs who are in the service industry. And the problem I solve is that they often feel confused and overwhelmed with the variety of ways of building a business and the many steps that it takes to build a business. And I'm qualified to create clarity and movement for my clients because I've got 20 years of marketing and business development experience from a former VP, but also I create and nurture the kind of relationship that allows people to feel comfortable enough to explore their own authentic vision. That is great. Well said. That's what it looks like. But you know, you made a great point. And I love that you said that that every time you do this, it comes out a little different. And this is such, I've been really talking to people about the fact that us as entrepreneurs and our businesses are constantly evolving and there's something really so beautiful about allowing that to happen. Sometimes we get so focused on the way things have been that we can get a little rigid and there's something really beautiful about giving us and our businesses the breathing space to grow and evolve. And so I encourage people that ask these questions of yourself monthly, quarterly, create real check-ins because these answers are gonna change and they should, they should definitely because you're changing. Yeah, exactly. And also the other thing is, the reason why these answer change is because of the context of when we're answering them. And I always tell people, people say, how do I create my elevator speech? I say, ultimately, the elevator speech depends on which elevator you're, I mean, who's in the elevator with you, right? Like you talk about yourself in the context that they can understand or in the context of whatever you're talking about in the moment if you're doing it on social media or something. So, all right, I'll let you keep going with what you wanted to share. Like, who do we know who's an ideal referral partner or business ally? Yeah, I love that, I'm using that by the way. It depends on what elevator you're in. I'm using that, I love it. Okay, so I wanna just quickly help people brainstorm on who would be good referral sources for them. And at the top, we talked about this being referrals and also being what I'm calling kind of business allies. And when I say business allies, I mean, anybody that might be able to support you getting your message out into the world. So these could be people who would have you guest post on their blog, it could be somebody who is hosting a podcast that you wanna be on. It could be someone who would collaborate with you on a new course or an offering. So, any kind of business ally. So we're gonna talk in terms of referrals, but these principles work in all of those business relationships. So you can really consider these things in a variety of different ways. So I wanna start by helping people brainstorm who these people are. And the reason I think this is so important is that it's human nature that we hang out with people who are like minded, who are interested in the same things, right? So if you're a nutritionist, you read nutrition blogs, you go to nutrition conferences with other nutritionists, right? So I'm a coach. I've got the coaching circle from my coaching program and then you join the coaches federation. So you end up hanging out with people who are actually offering a similar solution. They're offering alternative solutions. And that's not usually the best referral sources. Now, George, you've got such a big heart. This is a really unique opportunity that a business coach would invite another business coach onto their Facebook page. But typically it's not somebody who's offering an alternative solution that's really gonna help you with the referrals. So I put together kind of four ideas to help you brainstorm. So the first one is, I love this. I want you to think about who is working with the same client that you're working with on a similar problem, but at a different point in the life cycle. So people are always evolving. So you're speaking with a person when they're addressing a certain challenge. So I want you to think about what are the challenges that this person faced leading up to the moment that they needed your service. And after they've used your service or they've corresponded with you, what are the other challenges that they might face? So let me give you a couple of examples. Let's say you're a coach who focuses on divorce. Specifically, you work with women who are going through divorce. They're really in the trenches of the divorce. Now, the people who worked with that person before could be marriage counselors. So these could be people who are working with them when they were still a couple and they were deciding if divorce was the right step. So that's the person who's serving your client and then afterwards, I've seen coaches who actually work with women at least a year out of divorce when they've gotten through the process and now they're looking to redefine themselves. So there's somebody who works on both sides. I have a client who is a pre-diabetes coach. And what she knows is that leading up to people coming to find her, they are often really concerned about weight loss and they often have people in their lives who already have diabetes. So the people who are solving the problem before them are weight loss coaches who aren't specific to diabetes, but weight loss coaches and also diabetes support groups because they're probably researching these concepts because a family or friend has it. So those are the problems they're solving before. Now, she does pre-diabetes. If her service doesn't work, the after solution is someone who's actually working with people who have diabetes. So think about the problem that you solve and then ask yourself, what are the challenges that led up to this challenge and who's serving them in that capacity and what challenges will they face after this one and who is serving them there? So both of those groups are really good people that offer referrals. So that's your first group. That's a great, great idea because the fact is after someone uses a service provider or a business, oftentimes that service provider wishes they could refer this person on to the next step and oftentimes they don't have a good person or they don't have someone who's top of mind. And another example might be, let's say, acupuncture and nutrition coach, right? And so an acupuncturist might in that process of helping someone discover that, you know what? You do need to work on your nutrition as well, your diet, et cetera. And I just spoke with somebody who is a nutrition coach and she just reached out to me, he just reached out to me and I looked at his background, he really came from a good certification program, whatever, he really seems to know what he's talking about. I recommend you take a look and have a conversation. So it is really good. That's why when you reach out to these fellow service providers in that related field, they're often grateful to know that you exist and you might also refer people to them too. Absolutely, it brings real value to their whole journey, 100%. So the second group is talking to people who are addressing a similar product but with a different clientele. So my example of this is, this was a perfect, this was like a match made in heaven, but I had two clients simultaneously who were both leadership coaches, but one was working with Gen X and Baby Boomers, who were challenged by managing millennials. So they were really figuring out how they could make the most out of the millennial workforce. My other client was working with millennials who were trying to figure out how to climb the corporate ladder, how to create their own leadership skills and how to communicate to their Baby Boomer coaches or managers. And so here you can see where they're actually serving different clientele, but it's the same challenge. And that was kind of the perfect compliment to each other. So consider that. Who else is having a similar challenge? It might be a different clientele and who's servicing that group? Because people are gonna come into their orbit that are not actually their ideal client. So that's a great place for them to refer out, but also when they're putting programs together, you might offer a legitimacy or a new perspective that they don't have. So they might be really eager to have you come on as an authority, as a blog host, as a podcast host, because you come with a fresh perspective. So consider that too. Who is serving in the same world, but a different clientele? Yeah, that's really good. Another interesting sort of example of this is male and female. So as an example, if somebody came to me and says, George, I'm actually looking for a female business coach. I just get along better with them and it just feels better. Say, I'll recommend them to you. And if somebody comes to you and says, hey, I really like the male energy for a business coach. Works for me then, of course you work. So yeah, so even, whether it's age, whether it's the clientele is different or even the gender or their particular focus, these are all. So in other words, you can actually create win-win relationships with others who at first seem like they are a competitor. Oh, they're a leadership coach. Well, I'm a leadership coach. Wait a second, let's talk about what their focus is or what type of clientele that they most enjoy serving. So yeah, thank you for sharing that idea. Those are all great examples. Age, gender, perfect. The other one is kind of complimentary services. So, and the easiest way to think about this with a lot of my clients is the mind, body, spirit connection. So if you know that you are specifically working with the body or the mind or the spirit, who is solving the same problem from the other perspectives? So if you're a nutritionist, a natural compliment, like the yin and yang, the natural compliment would be a personal trainer. So try to figure out who is offering a complimentary service, who's addressing the problem where you're coming at it from different angles. So that's actually really a natural one. And then the last one's kind of like ancillary services and products. So the key here is really knowing your ideal client. And so you need to be having exploratory conversations with ideal clients all the time, even beyond, even if you're serving clients on a regular basis, I really encourage people to have more focused interviews with clients to really get down to what their challenges are. But what are the other services that they might be purchasing? So I don't know why I always use dog walking as an example, but if you're a dog walker, your client is also looking at grooming services and veterinary services and pet products and things like that. If you're a yoga teacher, where are they buying their yoga clothes, yoga instructor yoga, they might also be interested in vegetarianism. So really understanding your client and what their life cycle is like, their lifestyle and like who else are they engaging with in that process. So consider that to get really creative about other aspects of their lifestyle. Yeah. The underlying message for this is, it is so valuable for business to deeply understand your client and what they're going through, what their life is like. But I think it's also just the right thing to do, I guess. Like how can we really care about our audience and about our client if we don't really understand what a day in the life, month in the life, year in the life of that client is like. And so if we come to it from a place of not necessarily just how can I get more referrals but like how can I understand this person so well that I can more naturally activate my compassion and intuition to help them. And in the process of that, understanding them, it's kind of just naturally say, oh my God, look, they're using this type of service. They're interested in that. Well, there you go. There are my referral sources. So thank you for bringing that up. I love that. Anytime I have a client who gets a little triggered by something that feels salesy, people are really leery of feeling salesy. And whenever somebody feels triggered by that, I'm like, let's review your intention here. How can we shift your intention around this to be client centered and really heart focused because that totally shifts the energy around the entire thing. So yeah, I'm with you 100%. So I just wanna offer, with our last few minutes, I wanna offer four kind of tips that you can use to really make the most of these opportunities. So the first one, and you kinda talked on this before, is this idea of creating a win-win. So people that you're reaching out to for referrals, they're really busy. And while they probably love you and your business and they wanna support you, they're really busy managing their own business. And so if you can create a win-win for them, they're more likely to be able to keep you front of mind and be able to give you the time it takes to nurture a new referral. So before you even reach out to someone, I think people get a little, again, the salesiness, they don't wanna go in and just ask, can you help me with X, Y, and Z? I encourage you not to do that. Before you even reach out to someone, focus on how is it that this person is gonna win based on our new relationship and lead with that. So before you even reach out, really create a win-win for that person. And then the other one is, and this is in the same line. And I think this is a good principle for pretty much everything in marketing. This is a good principle for your newsletter and social media. But when people ask how should I start these conversations, you should start with commonality and value. Those are just a winning recipe for anything. And think about the way you meet any new person, right? You join them because you have something in common and there's some value in you two having a relationship. So let me give you an example. If you read a blog that you really like, it really resonates. To send them a note, instead of saying, I've got a new program, I wanted to know if you knew anyone that was interested, right? That feels very salesy, it can feel really aggressive. An alternative to that is start with what you have in common and add value. So I just read this blog post, X, Y, and Z. I really loved specifically when you mentioned this. It seems like we're both really passionate about helping people who have diabetes and want to resolve that without using medication. I would love to hear more about your business and see how I could lend value. That's a really generous way to start that relationship. And I think for a lot of people, it takes down that kind of sales phobia too because it's not a sales call. It is a relationship building step. So if you feel intimidated about how to start the conversation, focus on what you have in common and how you can add value. You just can't go wrong with that recipe. Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, and it happens almost never when people reach out to me. Like I always use myself example. And then whenever I say that, I say, hey, everyone watching this is going to now email me, so please don't. But seriously, I mean, I have a relatively larger network and audience than a lot of people. And I can always, I can count on probably two hands, the number of people who reach out to me every six months, let's say. Yeah, I mean, 10 people reach out to me every six months personally via email, and most of them are templated. So I could tell that they're just copying and pasting. That's what it feels like to me, that they're doing this with a hundred other people. And so there's nothing customized. And certainly they don't care about me and my business. They just care about promoting their thing. And even if somebody says, they say one thing like, George, I think your dog is so cute. And by the way, I have a program that I think, that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about thinking of it as, I mean, they're a potential friend. You know, potential friend. And if it's a potential friend, I'm not going to like, try to get them to do something for me right away. I'm going to say, you know, another way I like to think about is I like to reach out to people that I genuinely like. You know, that I genuinely can say, I really like that you talk about this on your blog. Or I really appreciate that you emphasize this and you're about me page. That value is really meaningful to me too. And I just want to connect with, so whatever you just said was great. I'm going to rewind also because I just know what you just said. But thank you, thank you for starting there. And that's a great way. I hope everybody reaches out in that way. Well, I love what you just said. No surprise. You're saying all these things like, yes, George, yes. I love what you just said about, you're not with a new friend, you don't reach out and just ask somebody of something right away. I think we live in this kind of instant gratification world, right? And I think that to some extent, there are a lot of people making a lot of money, selling people the concept that you can build a six-figure business in 60 days. And so there's this idea that everything has to be so instant in your business. And that really disintegrates the relationship right away. Like your intention cannot be wholehearted if it also is tied to a sense of urgency. Relationships take time, no like and trust, right? That all takes time. So I think that's an important piece too, is know that when you reach out, it's not because you're looking for something immediate. You're nurturing our relationship. You know, an important component too, is that you should be nurturing these relationships well before you ever need them. You should be nurturing these friendships before you ever have anything to ask. So that by the time you ask, it's natural. And that person is really eager to help and support you. So I think that's the other thing. It's just take a deep breath and give yourself some time. These relationships are worthy of that. Your business is worthy of that. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Well said. The other couple of things. First, the other thing was to make this easy for the person you're asking for a referral. So one of the mistakes I see is people being really vague in their ask. So they come and they say, I'm an executive coach. If you know any managers who want to be better leaders, send them my way. That almost gives that person some homework. Because now they have to figure out, well, what does an executive coach do? What kind of managers do I know? What problems are they facing? Now they have to go out in the world and they have to self identify these people or identify these people for you. That's a lot of work to give somebody. So the easiest thing is to help that be really clear about who you want to hear from and what problem they're facing. And the best way to do that is to deliver this message in your ideal client's language and from their perspective. The reason being is that you should be describing this person in such a way that the person you're talking to is going, oh my gosh, this sounds just like Jennifer. I got to call Jennifer as soon as I get off the phone with this person. Or that you've described it in such a way that the next time they have a conversation with someone who would be an ideal client, the language is so similar that it immediately triggers them to go, I just had a conversation with someone who fixes this problem. So as an example with one of my clients, he was an executive coach who the message started with leaders who want to get more out of their teams. And what manager doesn't want to do, they want to get more out of their team. So we did a lot of exploratory work with their ideal client. And now the message is, and this is kind of ad-libbing, obviously he'd do it better, but the message is more like, I work with senior leaders who are working harder than they feel like they need to work. They feel like they're saying a lot, but they're not communicating enough. They feel like their message is falling on deaf ears when they communicate their goals to the team. And as a result, their team is missing important matrices in the business. So those are actually direct quotes that he took from interviews he had with his ideal client, but you can see how that kind of message would trigger someone to go, I know this person that you're talking about. And that really makes it so much easier for that person to refer people to you. So make it really easy and be really specific. Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, exactly because when people connect with me too, they often just kind of assume that their elevators, their pitch is enough for me to go, well, I think I think of that person, that person, that person, then yes, I want to help you, but it's more about, and you know, if they could think about my clients and my network and kind of think about it from that point of view, it's so much more helpful. So like you said, I mean, the basic message is don't make the person you're reaching out to do a lot of work to have to think. Try to help think about it in their own language, in their own network, from their own network, yeah. So thank you. Yeah, make it simple, keep it easy for them. And that really is the last piece too. I think one of the biggest challenges when it comes to referral, George, I'm sure you agree with this. If I'm gonna refer somebody to somebody, I have to be really certain. It feels really vulnerable to me to refer business to other people because I feel like I'm attaching my name and my reputation to that person. You know, we've all been, we're all professionals here. We've been cultivating our reputation for decades. So to refer business to somebody, that's a really vulnerable position for someone to be in. And so I really encourage you to consider, especially if this is a new relationship, consider a smaller ask, right? So it might feel really vulnerable for you to say to somebody, I've got this $5,000 program that I'm rolling out. Do you know anyone who might be interested? For someone who hasn't referred people to you before and is just getting to know you, that could feel really vulnerable for them to attach their name to that product at such a high price versus a new relationship to say, I'm doing a free five-day no sugar challenge. And I would love to know if you know anyone that could benefit from that. You know, where there's a low barrier to entry, there's not such vulnerability associated with it. So I would consider, especially with those earlier relationships, you know, how can you make it a small ask? How can you take some of the fear and vulnerability out of it for the person who's going to refer the business over to you? Wow, this is so good. I'm so glad you're talking about this. And I just, I'm just thinking, as you've been sharing all these things, like, you know, you should have like a, well, I know you do, well, I'm assuming you do this kind of work with your clients in terms of helping them to flesh out in their own, for their own business in their own customized way, these things that you're talking, you're sharing with us, I'm assuming. Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, and I was thinking at some point, you know, we should talk about this. You should probably create a group program where you're walking a group through this stuff and so people can see each other's examples, et cetera. I think you're being very generous in this free video. You're sharing such great content honestly. I'm not just saying that because you're a client, but I, you know, you're summarizing a lot of what I've learned over the years and you're doing it in such a good way. So thank you so much for that. We've got a couple of minutes left and I, there's a question here. Is that okay if I bring that forward? Yeah, yeah, this is great. You and I can both offer a perspective on it. Yeah, so let's see. And thank you, Captain, for your comment there as well. So Heather wrote, I've got a number of other businesses that mutually refer. Could you speak to the monetary aspect that comes into that? So I love referring to other businesses and have a significant, she has a significant connector energy, but it feels heavy to me when others ask for money, basically for referring people to me. So let's talk about that. That's an interesting question. And is there anything that comes to mind for you when you think about that? You know, and this is something I didn't really touch based on when I talked about creating a win-win. I think when people think about creating win-win, a lot of people automatically think that's money. They automatically think of like an affiliate program where they're paying for referrals or they think a referral has to be, if you refer one person to me, I refer one person to you, which in that alone can feel like a sense of responsibility and there can be a weightiness to that. So we can talk about the energy around the money piece, but the other thing to consider is what are the other ways in which you bring value that aren't money? And I think having those front of mind is really helpful when you're having the money conversation. So when someone comes to you and expects a monetary, if you have other concepts, you know, if you can talk about the authority, the expertise, the audience that you offer, you know, there are a lot of ways that you bring value that are way more valuable than probably the monetary ask. So I think beyond kind of the energy of the money, you know, being really conscious of the other ways that you bring value and the other ways that you create a win for that person, I think that's really helpful. What are your thoughts? No, that's actually true. You know, there's so many things we can offer, you know, yeah, in exchange, whether it's our own service or maybe interviewing them as well for our audience or whatever it is we can exchange, but, you know, I also want to, you know, referrals are so valuable and so precious at the fact that somebody wants to refer you. I tend to basically, you know, try to see that, hey, if something's important to them, you know, then do my best to meet their needs. So if, you know, Heather, if that person wants to refer business to you and say, well, how much do you pay for a commission? Just step back and realize that they're probably not being the most thoughtful in terms of how they're phrasing that. And money is important to them. And it is, you know, essentially think of it as your advertising budget. So, you know, maybe we should talk about a little bit about well, how much do we pay somebody to refer business to us? If it's a one-to-one situation, I've seen everything from like 5% to, you know, 25%. I mean, you know, depending on the size of the package or whatever, you know, that is being sold, you know, 10% is pretty common as well, 15%. If it's a do-it-yourself product like, oh, I'd love to sell your online course to my people, 50%, 50%, half, split half, it's very common because essentially if you're selling online course, you can sell an unlimited, virtually unlimited number of it. If it's an online course or a program that has a lot of your support, then it's not, maybe not so much 50%, maybe it's more like 30% or 35%. But bottom line is I try to not judge what is a priority for someone to offer, for me to offer to them to be willing to do this. So, yes, come up with various incentives that you would be happy to offer and just know that money is going to be important for some people, you know? Yeah. Yeah, all said. Okay. Oh, you know, Heather says, you know, their monetary ask feels like it comes from a limiting and lack energy. And you know what, honestly, that may be true, but if you want their referrals, then you're gonna have to kind of play that game and just realize that, hey, money is uplifting for them. And so you can frame it in that way and say, okay, I'm giving them what helps them and that's fine too. And that's the other value of nurturing that relationship because if it's a new relationship, when they ask for money, that can feel really awkward. People have different perspectives and energy around money, but ideally you've been nurturing this relationship before you ever needed to make the ask, in which case it's a lot easier to go to someone and say, well, you know what, let's talk about that. What are your goals for a referral relationship? You know, in an ideal world, what would this look like for you? So that's another option is just to put it back on them. I think a lot of times we make assumptions about what their goals are or what the right number is for them. And there's no problem in saying, you know, I'm glad you brought that up. If that's important to you, I really would love to hear more about that. You know, what would be an ideal situation? What would make you feel good in this relationship? So, you know, if you're comfortable with that in the relationship, there's no harm in that either. That's great, excellent. Do you have any recommendations in terms of goals to set in terms of like reaching out to referral partners or business allies or give us some kind of guidelines for what we should maybe expect? Or, so for example, it's probably not realistic that every person we reach out to is gonna refer business to us, you know? And it's probably also, it's probably true that at least one person out of every who knows 10 or 20 is gonna refer business to us if we reach out in a thoughtful way. I think if you do it in a way that Chris has been talking about, it's probably gonna be better than one out of 10. But yeah, do you wanna talk about it a bit? Like what should we be maybe reaching for in this exercise? You know, I don't have a number and I'm sure you do. I think that part of it is, I think you've gotta get out there and start having these conversations because what you're gonna find is that there are gonna be certain, like for me, networking in person, my network, my referral rates are really high. Networking online far less, right? Because like you said, they're used to getting so much in their inbox. So I think what's really important is that you get out there and you're trying a lot of different things. And also in the early months of this, be tracking that information, right? Be looking at how many conversations you're having and what that's netting for you. And then you can work backwards. You can say, well, if I need five new clients and I know that, you know, if one in 10, that means I need to make 50 referral comfort. You know, you can work backwards into that number. So I would really encourage you just to get out there and start and figure out what's working best for you. And the other thing I would say is like every, everything you do in marketing, one of the most critical pieces is that you're consistent with it. I think it's really dangerous because this is a relationship building step, a lot, you know, to start strong and then either you don't get the response you wanted or you start to lose steam on it. And so you kind of pull back. And then six months later you go, oh, I forgot I was supposed to be networking and you start to pick up those relationships again. People feel that inconsistency. You know, you don't want friends that are inconsistent like that. So I would just say that no matter what you're doing, no matter how often you're doing it or where you're doing it, be consistent about it. So if you commit to going to a monthly networking event, that means you show up at that same event every month. If you're gonna, you know, you're gonna send three emails a day, it's three emails a day. People should know that they can count on you. Your clients should count on you, referral sources should count on you. So I would just say most importantly is the consistency. But what are your thoughts on a number? I love that message that you're just saying. And by the way, three a day is what's more than what I was thinking. I was thinking maybe three a week. But no, I actually, I mean, if you are wanting to get referrals more quickly, you know, three a day is great actually. If you could, you know, make a goal of that three a day, let's say fine, you do three times a week, you know, then it's nine per week. That's, I promise even three a week is more thoughtful outreach. Even three a month, I'm like, I'm still crying out loud. There's more thoughtful outreach than most people are doing, you know? So yeah, start with three a week. If you can go up to three a day, even if it's three times a week or something, that's great. What you just said about, you didn't say it exactly in this way, but it's like, don't reach out to somebody only when you need something for them to do something for you. Yeah. There are people like that in my network, in my life, and, you know, I try to be helpful, and I try to be loving and helpful whenever I can, but it doesn't feel the greatest and there are a lot of people who are not gonna be as compassionate as I am and are just gonna be like, you know, the second or third time you do that, you can be like, oh, this person just wants stuff from me. That's only when I hear, I only hear from them when they have something they want, they want me to promote for them. So just be aware of that dynamic and, you know, back to what we both agree with is back to the heart, enjoy people in your network, you know, like if you enjoy them and you create a relationship based on that enjoyment and that appreciation about who they are, the connections come more naturally and the keeping in touch comes more naturally, you know. So anyway, I don't wanna take too much of your time, Krista, and so I just wanna thank you for sharing so brilliantly and all the, I think the important points of this idea and this very important aspect of marketing, you might say, or connections, networking. And, you know, a word that I started using recently is net-caring, you know. And so the networking, it's net-caring, you know. And so is there any kind of final words of encouragement or wisdom you wanna share with us as we close this out? No, I would just reiterate what you said, which is that, you know, if you could walk into a networking event and not think about how many new clients you could get, but instead go, how many relationships can I nurture in this room? Your energy is gonna be so different, people are gonna feel that, and then you almost don't have to make the ask, right? If you're just there generously, people are gonna be generous back. So I would just encourage that. And I would just encourage people to get out there. I think for a lot of people, it just feels really intimidating to start, but starting everything is usually the hardest part. So I encourage you just to get out there and find a safe community of generous people. That's a great place to start. And just get out there and start sharing your message. It'll become more and more natural. So just get out there and start, have fun with it and be yourself. Yeah, beautiful. And if those of you watching this would love some one-to-one caring support to actually do this, Carissa is a great business and marketing coach to hire. So please check out her Facebook page, which I've put in the comments below. Her website is just her name.com, Carissa Schminke, S-C-H-M-I-N-K-Y.com. And thank you for watching. I hope you got something from it. If you don't mind, please comment below and say one thing that you most appreciated from what you heard and saw in this video. Thank you all so much. Thanks Carissa for doing this. Bye, thanks so much.