 So yeah, like one reason like like Paul like I'm hesitant to actually debate about the minutiae of Vaccines and case numbers and asymptomatic transmission and all that stuff Because for one thing, you know, I'm not the most qualified person to do that But also by even stepping into that debate. I'm affirming the frame of the debate itself I'm affirming that this is the thing that we should be talking about But what gets left out when you focus on the safety and efficacy of these Products is the entire context that even makes them thinkable or necessary or conceivable it would be like Saying okay, like what we instead of talking about the whole agricultural system Let's talk about glyphosate and whether it is whether the cost that way the benefits Well, if you take the system of industrial agriculture for granted Then it makes sense to argue about glyphosate and maybe we should replace it with another one that's a little safer and and But but if you focus on that and then the next one thycambra and then the next one and the next one then you're never going to Question the entire system that makes something like glyphosate necessary to begin with So I want to expand the conversation and talk about this kind of the stuff Paul's talking about like the machine And what does the machine do or the mentality of the machine when it is applied to human health When it is applied to public health when it is applied to society at large if you accept the values and Assumptions of the machine then of course you're going to want to Reduce all of reality including social reality to a data set and then manipulate that data set to maximize certain metrics Because that's how that's what progress is you bring more and more into the realm of quantity and control And and so this process and I don't agree with Paul that it is inevitable I don't I think you know, like it's true that it's not going to stop on its own It has tremendous or no inertia, but that inertia is also There's a push which is the ideologies and the mythology of our civilization Which goes back, you know even before the dust industrial revolution One of my big influences is Lewis Monford. Lewis Monford the historian who wrote about the origin of the mega machine he called it in the ancient builder civilizations, which pioneered the The the Mode of Standardization they built a gigantic machine composed of human parts actually who performed standardized roles and Whoever wielded that machine i.e. the Pharaoh could perform superhuman feats. He could raise a gigantic, you know pyramid If indeed the Pharaohs did build the pyramids, which is actually quite doubtful but that's a different Conversation, but but you know they could they could this was a the whoever wielded this machine had godlike powers and so an ideology grew that some day as We replaced the human parts of the mega machine with mechanical parts Everybody would come to have godlike powers not just the Pharaoh and these godlike powers actually have been Manifested, you know to fly through the air Communicating instantaneously across the world like these were literally the powers of the gods ancient mythology so so I'm just like painting this picture a little bit because it illuminates just how big the Transition would be to something different. It's the overturning of of trends and Meta myths that are thousands of years old and I think a lot of us can sense that this Revolution that we are engaged in, you know, it's not just about Restoring freedom of movement or restoring civil liberties or something like that My challenge has been You know, like I'm kind of more comfortable talking about the big arc of history and these these Philosophical ideas that can become rather abstract and I enjoy talking about that and it's kind of a safe zone Whereas now it's like okay Charles like we can talk about that all the time But what about you know the the people who are what about but the systems that are being put into place right now Like don't you want to do something about those? So I've that's why I've been But I think that that there has to be both like if we just talk about these narrow Policies and we narrow the conversation to that We're gonna be fighting an endless war because we're fighting just the symptom while the generator of the symptoms continues unabated