 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of ToffeeTVUSA. My name is James Boyman, joined as always by my co-host Ryan Williams. And we're here to talk about Everton as always, but more specifically Everton's newest managerial appointment, which has been all the talk of the town over the last week or so. And let's just get right to it, Ryan. I mean, we've got some thoughts on this. We did a pod about Rafa shortly before it was officially announced. But I think having let it sit, let it stew for a little over a week now, some more insights have come to light and we're going to just get right into it here. Yeah. I don't feel any better about it. I wish I could say I did. Yeah. I think I think it's important. We have a slightly different take probably than I think those that grew up, you know, as little kids dealing with fellow Liverpool fans. I think that's something that that conflict has felt all the time. And Rafa was a big part of that team. And maybe we don't, I mean, I do a little bit, but maybe don't feel that as much as maybe some of our English brethren. And I think as a result, and maybe a little bit the mentality to the North Americans a little different as well, too, I think we have some other concerns about the direction of the club. And maybe that's related to what we're used to seeing in terms of how North American sports are organized. That could certainly be part of it. But it's just, I think the hiring process itself and some of the quotes by Mishiri as well as some of the angles and how the athletic reported on it and some of the names thrown around, I think kind of puts us in a place that I think you and I, we both talked about this a lot are not entirely comfortable with. So maybe let's start with Farhad Mishiri. He said some interesting things to talk sport kind of right after the hire. Yeah. And I think it was important for Farhad to come out and make some sort of statement. Now, the fact that he did may not put very many people at ease, but essentially he went on talk sport and he said, look, I'm the biggest fan in regard to Everton. Oh, yeah, I've reacted to most cases ahead of fans when there was discontent. I think when there were rallies and banners against Martinez, I acted when I wanted to get David Moyes and there was protest. I didn't take him. That's pretty telling, by the way. He wanted to get David Moyes. Yes, I don't remember that being the narrative. But anyway, continue, please. And lastly, and this is in regard to Rafa, he says, but I think this is the case where the connection is a very distant one. He's a professional, dedicated manager who gives his soul to every club he's been to. Not really our concern, I think as much, you know, the distant connection and Liverpool manager. Again, I don't know if I don't know if Farhad really gets it, frankly, in this particular instance, because it's not just that. It's no, but it is. It's more than that. And we're going to talk about the more than that. But I think in terms of the most vocal and visible angle of protest has been, of course, the Liverpool connection. That's true. Yeah. So he has to address that directly, agree. Sure. So he's not crazy to do that. But I still, after hearing what he said, and well, let's just talk some of the actions, you know, the athletic reported a couple different things. You know, they kind of continued this narrative that Mashiri preferred a name in theory could quickly get Everton up the table and challenging where the actual words that the athletic wrote. Certainly a big name. Ken Wright, once someone who understands the club brands building a project over time, you know, that to me right there is a conflict and a concern for me. And then let's think about some of the other names that were talked about. I mean, you know, you know, Raph obviously was the hiring. Grand Potter was discussed. Galtier was discussed. I mean, you start thinking about, you know, Ronald Koiman and the guy whose name we won't ever mention, Marco Silva, who now seems like a real anomaly or maybe sounds a little bit like Potter and Carlo and then Rafa. And I understand there's some big names there. And maybe that's there. And maybe that's the point of commonality here. But I mean, any of those guys play even all that similar to each other? Not that many of them. No, there isn't a whole lot of continuity in Everton's managerial appointments. What does that sound to you? You know, what's your reaction when you see that? Because I think I feel the same way you would do is it just kind of it begs you to start to ask some questions there, of course, right? Yeah. And to be fair, I mean, you look at those three priorities wanting a manager who can win quickly and move us up the table fair, wanting someone who understands the club. Obviously important when the fan base is as connected and the club is as connected to the community as Everton is. Sure. And I think most importantly, brands bringing in the long term perspective of, well, look, it's all well and good to win now. But you want to set yourself up for long term success, because that's really the only way Everton are going to achieve the heights that we want them to. But it's really hard to find someone who checks all those boxes. And so you have to compromise in some sense, regardless of on any of these guys. But you would still hope to see some sort of high level vision for the club that trickles down and translates into the managerial appointments that we make. And yeah. And I think that's what has me a little more frustrated and perturbed and has me concerned for sure. You know, to me, I remember when Marcel Brands was hired and I posted something on Twitter to that effect where he at the end of this video is first interview Marcel Brands. I recommend everyone checking out because I think it's important. He talks about the requirements for the Everton manager. If you recall, technically, Silva has not had not been appointed yet. A modern coach to match Everton's vision. Now, I got me excited. I was like, yeah, you know, we're we're paying homage to the old. You know, I always think of brand new more dock as like the perfect symbolic representation of the identity, you know, of an Evertonian. I think it's paying homage to the past, but like thinking about the future. So, yes, modern coach to match Everton's modern vision. They work within the structure of a director of football. That's a modern setup. I think that's really important. They have to accept that they want to work with younger players. That's what brand said makes sense, right? Because we can't Everton can't afford ready made prime players. You know, we can't. We just don't under financial fair play do not have the revenues of it. So we got to buy the guys maybe a little bit before then let them develop. You know what I mean, until they become better, become world class players or or we sell them and buy others, you know, whatever it needs to. We need to improve in that way. And then creates the environment for the longer term, right? That's more sell brands and that's that's your director of football. Now, ultimately, though, I think there's a little misunderstanding. I think a lot of people think that the director of football's job is to establish the playing identity. To me, the identity of the club is what it is. I mean, that's just something you got to tap into. The more you tap into it as a club, as a business, because I think of that identity is almost like a brand. The more energetic fans get, and it's not just the identity too. It's the vision, you know what I mean? It's going forward. That's why I use Bramley Mordok as an example. It's it's the modernity of it, you know, like moving into the 21st century type thing. And that's exciting. That gets fans pumped up. And then, I mean, for me, how can you have a strategy to go forward? And we've got to be a little more precise and better than the other clubs because we don't have the revenue, right? How can you have a strategy and then a plan to achieve those objectives inherent with that strategy if you don't have an identity and a vision? I mean, that's all got to be consistent. The director of football executes and finds players for that playing style. The playing style is part of the strategy. That's a derivation of the identity and the vision. And when I see all those names, I don't see that. And I think in particular, if we go through Rafa's history a little bit, if those are the things that we said, right? Modern coach works as a D of F structure, wants to work with young players, creates environment for longer term. I'm that's what I was bought in on. I'm a little concerned that Rafa Benitez doesn't do that. And we should walk through his history a little bit. That's kind of the game plan relatively briefly and touch on a couple of those things. Because in his first interviews, he talked a little bit about that, you know? Yeah. And just before we get into Rafa's history, because I think it's it's pretty illuminating to really understand kind of the full, full context of his career for those that maybe aren't super well versed in the last decade plus of football. But I think it's so key to just emphasize that the identity, vision, strategy and plan, this isn't like a plane, right? It's one thing downstream from the other. Yeah. When you're talking about the athletic article and they mentioned, you know, you've got brands with one idea, Mosheery with one idea, Kenright with one idea. Those three are all on the board and there doesn't seem to be any sort of well, the prioritization is Mosheery is the top dog and he what he says goes. Yeah. And so it doesn't really fill you with a whole lot of confidence that there is that sort of tiered structure in place. Yeah. It's concerning. And I think it will have after effects that are problematic and already really has no matter how good you are. And you don't see it at some other clubs, too. And I think it's OK that Mosheery makes the hiring decision. I agree. But he's got to be the one that lays out the identity and the vision. Now, how much interface he does with fans? I think we're at the ground level ever since very good at that. But I think at the top level, just feel like there's maybe we're missing some tricks there, I think, at a minimum. Anyway, so let's get into Ralph's history, because I think it's interesting. And the type of coach he is doesn't quite agree with some of those other guys. But it is an interesting history. A lot of people don't realize he started out as a player. You know, he heard himself at the U-19 level with Spain and really kind of ruined his playing career. He ended up starting to coach at like age 26 for Real Madrid staff. He grew up in Madrid. His big break was really the Valencia hire. Yeah, exactly. He wasn't the first choice and they were coming back, coming off of back to back champions, like runners up. But he did it was a big break for him, but he did improve their league position in one two out of three years. So kind of this is a similar trend to what we'll see further on in his career. But in some sense, riding on the coattails of those who came before him, making improvements, no question about it, but benefiting from work that had been been laid before him. And look, everyone needs a little bit of luck. I mean, Ray Allen, Barca were down, but he's still, you know, he did improve them, you know, on a, you know, a league basis. But this is where the example he gave to talk about his relationship with direct I've worked with directors of football. Well, it seemed like he had a little conflict as well. I think, you know, originally Javier Subrites, I believe is his name. He's a former Valencia player. He was the original sporting director that was over top of Rafa. And I think they got along OK. But Suso Picharch is the guy who he who replaced him. And Benitez had all sorts of issues there with him. But to me, just in general, this isn't evidence that he gets along well with sporting directors. I mean, they both actually left after 2014. And I mean, a lot of people sided with with Rafa as opposed to ownership. But everyone knew there was a rift between Benitez and Suso. And so to me, that's not a good illustration of someone capable of working within that structure. He already has this reputation of being a little bit of a control freak. So to me, that's a little bit of a red flag. But anyway, so let's move on to Liverpool. I think most people know his tenure there, you know, kind of started out. He couldn't keep Michael Owen, but signed a bunch of new players. You know, he won the Champions League first season. And again, there was some fortune there involved in it. But, you know, you got to give him credit for doing it. The one thing you notice is he turned a squad over very quickly. And that's kind of where his reputation was of not being a superman manager. I mean, I remember he replaced Jersey Dudek like the second the final was over. But he dealt with some ownership changes there, too. You know, Tom Hicks, we all know American owners both times, too. New owners complained about getting backed by them. I mean, they thought he was going to get fired at one point. He didn't serve, didn't sign an extension. I mean, there was a lot of complaining, right? He does not give you the feeling warm and fuzzy that he's going to be the yes or type yes person, maybe the most sure he wants. No, definitely not. I mean, it's a theme throughout his career. And we'll continue to talk about it. He's been, he's had no qualms about going to media to voice his displeasure with not getting his way or not anything backed. They're Alex Ferguson. I remember that famous press conference where he just rattles off all the. Yeah, exactly. So then he went to enter. I thought a lot of people maybe thought he was crazy for for taking over for Mourinho's ridiculous, trouble-winning team. He did win the Club World Cup, which apparently was a big deal for them. But, you know, in the league form, wasn't great. And sure enough, what happened? He was removed demanding to be supported in the window. And look, he did have a ton of injuries there. But I mean, come on, man. He lasted a couple of months, you know? So I don't think we can look at that one as a victory. And then he took a little bit of a break and sure enough, he moved to Chelsea, which the fans were not happy with. Fans were not not pleased with Rafa. They were known for singing. You're getting sacked in the morning at home matches to their own manager. I was reading another really excellent athletic piece with some comments saying, you know, there were banners actively out against him. And despite that, I mean, he almost he achieved success with them, despite never really winning over the fans. And Chelsea fans can be hard to please to save the least. But again, I think it's just an example of perhaps his personality, not making him always the maybe best man manager, but also most agreeable to fan bases. Yeah. And look, you know, he did all right. You know, he got him in the Champions League in his interim tag, which I don't think he ever liked. Won the Europa League and he moved on to Napoli. And Napoli is a very interesting one, too. You know, he won the Copa Italia, but, you know, the Napoli team had finished second year before with Malta Mazzari. And the fans were really excited about it. You know, they thought they were going to be fantastic. And he won the Copa, too. So it wasn't like their first trophy in forever or anything. Sure enough, Rafa came in there and it was his way or the highway. And you get a little that, too. Like when you hear Stephen Gerrard, some of the ex Liverpool players talking about it when it was time for them to go, they went and insisted on playing a 4-2-3-1, even though Mazzari really played a 3-4-3, played guys out of position. He finished third in his second year. He dropped out of the Champions League spots and but magically moved to Real Madrid, but really, if you look at his transfer business, it's amazing. And we're going to get into it later and we do our full squad assessment. I mean, he turned over a vast majority of the key players for Mazzari in two years. I mean, it's pretty dramatic stuff. So I think that's also a theme, you know what I mean? I think that very much is a theme. And then you look into kind of the transition into Madrid, he got a chance to do some recruitment there. But I think the story there was more one of man management, don't you think? Most definitely. But, I mean, again, you look at the Madrid, he did well, numbers wise. They scored a lot of goals, scored seven more goals than Barcelona. And like no one finished with many goals. I feel like no one else is over 30. They scored 47 goals in his tenure there as first by a mile. But he's still in third. But the fans hated how they were playing. I mean, that was a big part of it. Yeah, Ronaldo hated him. Hamas is known to have not been a fan, which I think he said he was out of shape. He's constantly on about fitness. So yeah, that's it. And I mean, Moshear needs to know that if he's making that call. And see, to me, that's a conflict because it's kind of like Moshear knows what a financial boon Hamas Rodriguez is and how much attention he's given to Everton. I mean, God, you can't get him in the second year and suddenly push him out because your manager you hired can't get along with them. Can you? I mean, absolutely not. And then you look at huge risk and you think about it is a risk in terms of Hamas, who's obviously the biggest superstar Everton have had, maybe ever. But then you think about some of these other players and you think about the managers and I'm looking for the silver lining here while you can be glowing you to go full doom and gloom. But there has been this kind of undercurrent ever since Everton have come into all this money under Farhad Moshear that the players don't need to be need to have a little more discipline and rigidness in their training regiment and a little more organization. And you can't just coddle them and tell them to just play a little to get Carlo there and expect them to get the best they need instruction they need on the field management. And that's one area where Rafa, if you're looking for the bright side, might be able to bring some of those attributes to the Everton squad. I agree with that. I mean, many times, even Marco Silva had them playing kind of a well disciplined style and it was effective, even if, you know, he was limited. But he was known to be really, I think, well regarded by the players. I think somebody was very specific and Rafa is going to be really hands on him. You've already seen some yearly training sessions. He is out there. You could tell they're already trying to play his vertical style, too. It's very interesting the way he's changed up some of the drills already and again, they only let you see so much. But hopefully we get a chance to maybe see a training session or something when they come in Florida. I think that would be really, really interesting, which we'll definitely report back on. Yeah. I mean, some of this stuff is so hands on, though, in this real team, maybe it was just a bad fit. I mean, you don't need to tell Luca Modric to stop using the outside of his foot. You know, that's the famous one, you know? And then and so look, he took over at Newcastle late. He couldn't save them. He actually had some bad results in terms of, you know, unlucky. But again, his whole tenure there in Newcastle. You got to give him credit for sticking with them when he went down and then went back up, you know, got to give him credit for that. But, you know, constant complaining in the market. You know, he started playing at four, two, three, one, eventually kind of moved into a five, four, one. And, you know, he let a lot of talented young players go, even though I know it was sell to buy. I mean, some of these guys like Tony and Armstrong and, you know, there's some pretty talented guys and I guess there's some reasons for it. But he doesn't necessarily his recruitment didn't lend itself to older players necessarily, but it was certainly mixed bag. And then I think questions should be asked about his move to China. Yeah, I mean, you've you've raised this point many times. And I think it's a fair one. Look, it's there are two sides of this. I know, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to be overly cynical here. No, but you start and you look at a manager of his pedigree. Well, to say that he wants to go to China to work on a quote unquote project seems just a little farfetch. Yeah, failing dimension. They're paying you like 12, 13 million pounds a year. And again, I'm not suggesting in the press conference to say, I'm here only for the money. And that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the offer was outstanding and it showed a commitment. I mean, you could be a little bit honest here. You know, I just I, you know, you listen to it. I know sometimes big time managers say this, but, you know, you kind of we're asking questions. And I think this one's hard to paint all that Rosie. You know what I mean? I mean, yeah. But I also think it's it's hard to like extrapolate a lot from because it's such an anomaly in terms of the rest of his career. Yeah. In that covid hits to you. That's just right. Covid you're if you're getting I don't know what he was making a new castle, but he presumably got a huge raise. And even though his family is in the UK, at some point, you know, when you're anyone's looking at a new job, you're going to weigh the salary, you're going to weigh the benefits, you're going to weigh the location, the situation with your family. And I think it's at the end of the calculated decision. And if you decide that, look, if I take this job and work for a few years, I can set my family up for forever, basically, or for a very long time. I wouldn't begrudge him for that. But I would also maybe scratch my head and wonder truly about maybe his level of commitment, I guess. Yeah, he says he puts his heart and soul into everything. I mean, that's fine. But ultimately, I view him as me's in China. Like he didn't have a tremendous amount of options at this point. Some scuttle, but some Italian teams were interested. I mean, he's been out of work since January. There have been a lot of job openings since then that have come and gone and been taken. So it gives me some semblance of idea that he wasn't super in demand. So why Everton? And I think he's making a decent wage here. I'm sure he views this views this as his way back into the fold. I don't care about continuity, you know, either. I mean, I do care in terms of how it lends itself to recruitment. But, you know, to me, I don't know if he's here for the long term either. And I don't really care at this point. But I think it's fair to say there is kind of a narrative that could be said that this guy's taking the money. It's convenient for him and it's a way to get back into it. And maybe he doesn't care that much about Everton. But look, I mean, people are going to have pride and do their job. He's a professional. So I got it. I mean, you know, I'm not I'm not insinuating anything malicious or anything like that. But I have no doubt he'll give his all. I suppose. But but either way, either way, I think still, when you think about all that and all he represents and you go back to those things that we just went over kind of before with France, I think that's really capturing why if we thought that's what the identity was in the vision of Everton going forward, I don't think he matches that vision. And for me, that's why I'm frustrated. Like Carlo Ancelotti, I could totally buy is an anomaly. You know, he's to get even him and have access to him. Do you say no to Carlo Ancelotti? Absolutely not. You can't know. And he said a lot of the right things. And I guess you could even make a case of the recruitment in the summer. Hamas was cheap, you know, and older. Alon, maybe he just felt like he was willing to spend a little money on one more older guy to provide leadership so that he could facilitate the buying of younger players going forward. So to me, I was still holding out some optimism that Carlo didn't represent a win the now thing because Everton's going to take some time. So I bought in a lot of the things he said and was kind of waiting for the summer and recruitment to see if it. Right, right, right. But this is, I think, why the Rafa decision kind of threw me a little bit. So let's go back to those things again. So Marcel Brand said modern coach to match Everton's vision. I mean, would you say he's a modern coach? Like when I think of modern, I think of now in the present and leading I guess the football, tactical and innovative world. I just whether he is or not, whether he still can. I mean, is he represent that? I've seen you debate ad nauseam, even the definition of what a modern manager is. But I think I think your your definition of essentially someone whose current practices are slightly ahead of the curve of what's what's in vogue at the moment in the game. And to me, Rafa is a guy who's played a very similar system pretty much since he's been a senior coach everywhere he's gone. And it's a compact, defensive and quick counterattack style, which, look, Marino has used it effectively. Plenty of managers have utilized that style to a great effect. But it's I don't think it necessarily in line with what's been vocalized by the higher ups at Everton ever since Mushiri came in, right? We wanted to play an attractive style, potentially an expansive style as well. That's not Rafa style point blank. No, it's not. So I wouldn't say I'm not saying he's a bad coach, but he doesn't represent symbolically a modern coach to match that. I mean, Red Bull, Leipzig, can you see Rafa coaching? No. Right. But that's the point. They have a strong brand, a strong identity. They wouldn't choose a coach like that. So that's, to me, a concern, you know? And then, OK, works with the director of football, the structure. I think he quoted Valencia as being the one time he worked with them. I don't see that as a great illustration that he's comfortable doing that. And he's known to be a tanker or control freak. So to me, I think Jerry's still out on that one. I would say my first impression is no. Yeah, I would agree. And I really think this is probably the most important aspect of the Rafa hire is what is his relationship going to be with Marcel Brands? Because you mentioned you don't care about continuity and you shouldn't have to care about continuity in management when you have that top-down vision and you have continuity in the recruiting department and you actually have someone who's in charge of, well, guess what Marcel Brands? You have to look at the five-year plan. Rafa can look at this year and what he needs to do to make the current squad better and what needs to be implemented. Now, if you have those things colliding and all of a sudden, you've got Rafa ripping up trees and selling half of our players in a summer, could be good, could be bad, but could also be detrimental to the long-term objectives of the club. Yeah. And so like I think of the other two ones wants to work with young players. I mean, that the style of play kind of dictates that a little bit, too. Red Bull, as again, is my example, you would bring in young players there. It's part of their kind of mantra, you know, the disrupter. But also the style of play requires tremendous fitness and athleticism and being very active. So I mean, that's, you know, a younger man's game and then crazy environment for the longer term. I don't know. You know, Rafa was only at Liverpool for a while. I mean, everything else has been relatively quick, I guess. But anyway, I think the whole point, though, is really it lends itself to concerns about recruitment. I mean, you're recruiting from different styles of play over and over and over again. So you're naturally left with some players that aren't going to necessarily fit the style. And I think it's a problematic one. You know, I mean, Rafa really needs good athletes out there. We have some, but I wouldn't say we're overly athletic. And that's why the recruitment is really important this summer. But if he goes and buys a bunch of old guys or guys that are just athletes and don't I know it's Everton, so they're going to be a little better than that. But just athletes that maybe don't have the ability to play in a good possession type, maybe modern, even counter counter pressing or high presser type of offense. If Rafa leaves in a year, we're stuck with again another mishmash of people. So like to me, there is some saving grace here. So in theory, in theory, if Marcel Brands keeps an eye on that vision and sticks to it, you know, and make sure that the recruitment at least guys are well rounded enough or versatile enough that they can maybe adapt to another manager. I don't feel quite as concerned, but how can you do? I mean, you can't just keep going back and forth. It's to me, it is evidence that we do lack identity. We do lack vision, and certainly we're not implementing those things if we have them in a consistent fashion. And it makes recruitment very, very difficult. So some of the players I think will respond to be very happy and very, very effective with Rafa, but some of the guys that have been effective in the past, there's just no way. Stylistically, it's it's different. It's just, yeah, a square peg round hole situation. And look, there's plenty within the squad that I think both of us would be more than happy to see the back of and never see play for Everton again. But there are some some good players in here that even Carlo wasn't able to really get the best out of or utilize in positions that that would benefit them. And we're going to get way into that on the U.S. on American toffee podcast when we do our squad assessment part two. But I guess just in terms of kind of end of the road on Rafa, we always said, regardless of who the manager was, we've been saying it all season that this summer would be pivotal and would be kind of the tell as to whatever 10s real long term ambitions are. And so once we see the link start rolling in and players starting to sign on the dotted line, it's going to give us a lot of information about how Everton really plan to operate with both with Rafa and what Marcel Brands exactly is expected to be doing. And no people are ready to to write off Marcel even now. But I don't think it can be understated how important it is that he asserts himself as the director of football and starts to lead in every regard in terms of transfer business. And it's going to be interesting. Hopefully they can forge a good relationship and we can at least have recruitment in a way that's intelligent this summer. And look, Rafa's inherited a team that had 59 points last year. This is not a lost cause. This isn't a terrible team, even if we played some flat football, but make no mistake to this whole idea that while he plays like Carlo, no, he doesn't Rafa's counter attacking sitting back style is more aggressive. It's different. It's very well orchestrated counter attacks to these things are designed. You know what I mean? And they practice that way. So I think from a tactical standpoint, I think it will probably be better and more efficient, more effective. My concern, though, Hamas and the number one test for Rafa immediately is, can he keep the talented guys here immediately? If Hamas goes, if Richarlison goes, it's going to be a serious transition year unless they can just pull a rabbit out of a hat in the recruitment standpoint. And that's just too much turn over to deal with when we already have a whole right side to replace. But we will get into all your recruitment needs position by position. We'll talk about Rafa's old recruitment, who he's brought in, what type of player he wants at every single position of need. In incredible detail on the American Tafi podcast. But I think we've knocked everything out at least for now here on Tafi TV USA. Amen to that, Ryan. Yes, thank you, everyone, for listening to this episode and watching this episode of Tafi TV USA. If you're not already, for whatever reason, subscribed to Tafi TV. Hit that subscribe button. Hit the like button on this video. Leave us a comment. We'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Otherwise, we'll be with you next time. And until then, up the Tafis.