 Dalali is the founder and CEO of Fearless, a full-stacked digital services firm based in Baltimore, Maryland, with a mission to create software with a soul, tools that empower communities and make a difference. Dalali graduated with a BS in computer engineering from the University of Maryland in 2004 and has more than 15 years of experience leading agile software teams and programs. He chaired the inaugural DevOps Days Baltimore and is a founding member of the governing board of the Digital Services Coalition. Dalali also is the chair of Hack Baltimore, a citywide hackathon formed to deliver solutions in a sustainable way past the end of traditional hackathons. In today's episode, we discussed the Digital Services Coalition, an organization focused on the long game of changing government through digital transformation, finding challenges within a city and how do we bring technical solutions to them that's Hack Baltimore, the story behind the purple cow and how his company's colors are purple based on the book by Seth Golden, building the Hubsow Map for the SBA and much, much more. Stay tuned. You don't want to miss this episode today with Dalali. We want to welcome our next giant, Fearless, CEO, Dalali. Dalali, welcome to the show today. Thank you, man. Welcome. No, no, no, listen. So, like I said, we were just kind of talking off air a little bit about your business and what you guys do, things like that. Can you tell us what is Fearless and what kind of company is it? What do you do? Yeah. So, Fearless, we are a digital services firm and I'll kind of walk you through a little bit of kind of what that means. We say our mission is to build software with the soul and really envision a world where good software powers things that matter. And when I say that, what do I mean? I can go outside right now, take my phone and click a button and a car shows up. That's magic, right? Yeah. That's right. You name it, right? Technology is there, it's been happening for a while. However, when you translate that into things that are better in the public sectors, let's say if I pass the homeless person in Baltimore City and I want to cut into a homeless shelter, that technology doesn't exist, right? I may be able to find a way on a hundred number. They can't tell me how many beds are available. And so, Fearless really exists to be the glue that takes all that cutting edge technology that may be in the commercial space and how to apply it to the public sector within government to really move the needle. Wow. Wow. No, that's great. How did you come up with the name Fearless? So, a couple of reasons. One, when we got started, we were doing a lot in the DOD space, right? And government contracting in general is full of acronym C, right? So, ADC, Corporation, DEF, Limited, and Partnership, et cetera, right? And so, really wanted a name that would stand out, you know, kind of looking at the companies or listed companies that was kind of audacious enough that would make someone take pause and say, wait a minute, what's this company about? So, that being one, a second part is, I'd always wanted to start a company and it's funny, like I felt like I'd been prepped for it forever, but when it was time to jump, I was terrified. And so, I figured, Pick a Name Fearless, you know, I see it every day. It'll be a consistent reminder to kind of press through it and to really not be afraid to be different, not being afraid to live on the bleeding edge and do things a little differently than what we see now in the market. So, that brings me to my national progression of the Purple Cow story. And obviously, you have a purple background, your logo's in purple. You give out, apparently, red that you give out purple. The Purple Cow is a book to all of your employees. That's right. Tell us about it. That's right. The Purple Cow is a part of our DNA. I wish I could say we created it. We stole it. It's a book by an author named Seth Godin. And so, Seth Godin talks about this Purple Cow. And he's a, you know, Tom's best-selling author. And in the book, he talks about the concept of a brown calf, right? And he goes and says, you know, imagine, you know, me and my wife and my kids, you know, we're driving down to the country and we see a brown calf. You know, we get excited, the kids will look up, you know, and say, yeah, look, you know, there's a cow over there. And they get very excited. And before you know it, we pass this cow and we keep driving. We're just focused on where we want to get to. You know, half a mile later, maybe driving and see a second brown cow. Looks a lot like the first guy. Look the same, sounds the same. It's over there, eating grass. Kids, look up. Wasn't as interesting as the first one, right? Pass the cow, keep driving. Before you know it, you're passing cow after cow after cow. And you get really good at that point about ignoring them, right? You barely even notice that cows are there in the distance at that point. You just focus on your destination. And then he stops and says, you know, wouldn't it be something if you were driving and you saw a purple cow? Man, you pull over the car, you take pictures, and this was a big back then. But today, you put it all over social media, your Instagram, you put it all over the picture. Yeah, you'd be selfie-ing with that purple cow. Everybody. That's right. Purple cow selfies and all of that, right? And talks about, you know, that purple cow would be something remarkable, something that would compel people to stop into remark about and many transitions and talks about business and how businesses, we're all kind of brown cow, right? We look the same, sound the same. And people get really good at ignoring us, ignoring our spam, ignoring our telemarketing, ignoring all of these different things. And so how do you, the best way to transform your company is by being remarkable in this purple cow that stands out and compels people, because you are remarkable, to stop and to take notice. And so really just fell in love with the story, fell in love with the concept behind it. And so we adopted it wholesale. You know, everyone in the company gets a copy of the book. You know, we're all in on purple. It works out well for us being in Ravensland, Baltimore, but I actually saw the company before we were in Baltimore. And so we've adopted it all through this purple cow. No, that's great. You know, it's interesting about that. Like you said, you are in Baltimore, and you are a Baltimore native, correct? I am not. So I was born in DC, grew up in different parts of Maryland. So I passed around from Tacoma Park to Silver Springs to Laurel. And my wife and I, we've been in Baltimore for a little over eight years now. OK, you said you started the company somewhere else. Where was that? In Laurel, Maryland, different part of Maryland, about 30 minutes after here. OK, OK, OK. But, you know, people refer to us DMV. That's right. So, you know, I mean, you say it's Baltimore. So it says it's the DMV. It's all the Beltway. For us that are on an outside looking in, it's all like the same region for us. Yeah, it's funny. People have a very visceral reaction to that, right? And if you're a DC native, they say people say DMV when they're not from DC, right? That's true, though. If you're not the DC native, you'll probably say DMV if you're within the Beltway. And many people within the DMV do not count Baltimore as a part of the DMV, even though the acronym is for DC, Maryland, and Virginia. So it depends on who you ask, right? And their answer will probably reveal where they would be. OK, no, no. Thank you for clarifying that. We'll accept that. Did you start off with that Purple Cow principle when you first founded the company? Or is that something you adopted? I did. So we started off day one. So there were a couple books that were really inspirational, kind of in the journey as I was getting started. Purple Cow was one of those. I'd heard Seth Goode speak at a conference, actually. It was a Baltimore Tech Night years ago while I was in college and got a copy of the book then. And so it was kind of the seed that was in my head years prior to that. But it was around day one. What other books were a part of that journey? Yeah, so the other one that was a couple that were really good that really stuck with me were Built to Last. And so it's kind of a Jim Collins book following up from Good to Great. And it talks about this concept of companies that essentially are around forever, right? How do you build a company that is around forever? And what does that mean and what does that look like? And really, it's a bit of an academic book, right? So he's less of a, here's the management philosophy of the month and I'm gonna study this for six or seven years, I'll give you data and there's some facts whether you like it or not. And study different companies across different industries, across every part of their growth and whether that be from startup to your mid-times to when they became large corporations and he compared them against the competitors at every stage of the way and really said what made them different? How come they made it and their competitors did not? And it's a lot of really interesting nuggets from the book but there was one, a couple paragraphs in that book in one section that really stood out and talked about, you know, kind of this niche within the company, right? And kind of, I always been taught like, hey, find your niche and write and drive that and that's how you stand out. What he said about these visionary companies as he called them, and that was company has been around for over a century. He said that they always determined who they wanted to be before they determine what it is they wanted to sell. And that kind of, I chewed on that for a little bit, I believe that, I believe that, right? And I kept like kind of chewing on that and it really talked about the ethos and the why behind the company. Here's some cynic talk about that and some of his teachings as well, right? Really about the why, right? It starts with the why. And it's a similar philosophy in that and for us and so that was really instrumental, like, who do we want to be? Who do we want to be, right? And if you exist to sell, you know, X widget to Y customer, that may be fine to date. If someone built their whole business model around a mainframe, they'd be out of business. If someone built it around, you know, a desktop, they'd be out of business. If it's a live stop, right? People have phones and so on. Everything's evolving all the time so there have to be this underlying. That's right. There have to be this underlying ethos of who you are that can remain over time. And so that's something that really stuck with me. Nice, nice, nice. Let's go back to some of the earlier days and then we'll come back to fearless. So some of the early days, we see that you have your bachelor's and computer engineering, right? And then let's go back to before that. When you were a youngster and you're a youth, were there activities that you did that led you to believe like you would be in a leadership position one day or entrepreneur position one day? Absolutely. I think I had no choice. So I was raised by a single mother. Youngest of three boys and growing up, my mom was really big on, if you want some extra money, you're gonna have to go out and earn it. And that was kind of the construction that you're gonna do illegally, but go out and earn it. Right, right, right, yeah, sure. And so we did that. And so our older brothers and I, we probably have had every side job hustle, whatever you want to call it, no demand knocking door to door. I mean, we've walked dogs, we've cut grass and break leaves, shovel snow, painted houses, planted flowers. I mean, you name it, wash cars, I mean, you name it. We have done all of those things. And so every season, we had something to do. We were always outside knocking from door to door. And I think that was a pivotal point for me kind of as a kid. Cause I realized that if I wanted to make more, I could earn more, right? I could go out and I could work harder. If I wanted to buy a pair of shoes or I wanted to go to the movies or go do something for my friends, I was able to go earn that. And that was something that was really instrumental for me. That's, you know, so you went to college and right after college, you start working in the DOD space. Looks like you started to be about five years later after you went to college? Yeah. Yeah. So, but before that you were a consultant for a couple of companies. Can you tell us how did that experience go? And was there something during that time where you were a consultant that gave you, like you said, prior to what we was talking today was like, okay, when it was time to make that leap and that jump, you know, you was terrified. What were those experiences like that led up to you starting the company as a consultant? Sure. So, in undergrad, I kind of carried that entrepreneurial spirit with me within undergrad. I, you know, at one point we had started a barbershop and I was cutting hair on campus to make money. And, you know, had a couple startups in undergrad. I knew kind of I wanted to be in the business space at that point. I didn't know like what it meant. And so I had the, I felt like I had the hustle side. Like I could knock through the door and wasn't offended if someone said no, but I needed some more structure around like, how do you really launch the enterprise? And what does that mean? And what does that look like? So, while I was in undergrad or college, you'll be see launch an entrepreneurship program. And so at that point when it started, it was not credited, but you can come and if you want to come here and learn, you can do so on your own time. And I did that. So I took all the courses that I could within that program and got a chance to learn like this. It's how you do projections. And this is what a business plan is, right? It gave me a little bit more rounding, you know, outside of the just knock from door to door, which I think is important. So fast forward when it was time to graduate. I remember wanting to start a company and I talked to a bunch of mentors and advisors there. And, you know, I had one in particular tell me that I think you should go work on entrepreneurship. And it's funny, initially when I heard that I was super offended, right? I was like, yeah, of course. I don't know, right. Now, really down. And I, let me put this on the shelf, right? And super offended, right? And I'm like, did you not hear me for the last three years? I'm starting a company. I'm gonna retire about 30. I'm gonna be a billionaire. What are you talking about? I said all the same thing. I said all the same thing. Same thing. It is funny, like I took advice, they made a recommendation to a guy that was a UMBC alum. So, you know, it's a good mentor, made a recommendation here. And I thought, so I went in actually day one for that company. Not a couple of offers coming out of college. And I told them day one, I said, I want to start a company. I don't know when, I don't know how, I don't know where. But if I can come here and I can learn from you guys, then we got a deal on how come. And it's funny, I look back on hindsight now, they have like zero incentives to hire a good kid, right? They're like, what am I talking about? But it was really good. Landed in a really good spot. It was a really strong recommendation, you know, from a mentor. And so I went in day one and they knew I wanted to start a company. I asked, well, obviously I was at it. Like I'm listed things that I was looking for. And I think they didn't know what to do with me. I kind of later found out I was the first and only entry-level, how they ever hired the company. And so they were kind of like, what do we do with this kid who's talking and all that stuff, right? But what happened in that company was that I started doing technical work. So I was programming, you know, working on code. And I've had meetings here and there, kind of learning about the business and picking my boss's brain on the subject. And kind of second year I was there, they had a really breakout year. So there were about 100 people when I joined the company and they won about $200 million worth of work in the second year that I was in. So it was, for a company that size, it was enormous, right? And there were two separate gigs that were driving most of that. And I started raising my hand and just started saying, look, look, give me more to do, give me more to do. Like we've made these deals, they're great, but I'm programming, I want more, I want more. And I think around the time, you know, one of the guys that was running one of those big jobs just saying, hey, we just got this huge deal. Like I need some more resource, some more help to get this thing off the ground. And so it's funny, like in hindsight, I look at it now and it was just kind of a perfect aligning of the stars where I'm sure our bosses were like, well, wait a minute, so we can get, you know, this kid to shut up and we can get this guy to shut up. Like, why don't you go help him? Yeah, go help this guy out. That's perfect, that's great. So it was just aligning of the stars. And so a few months later, I had become a number two on a $100 million gig. I was a couple of years out of college and I had no clue what I was doing. I went 100% management, had no clue what I was doing and just had really good mentor and PM that trained me, showed me the ropes, taught me about the numbers. What type of contract was it? What type of contract was it? It was a research vehicle, technical research contract. Yeah, exactly contract. Yep. And it just learned. I learned, had to be talking about how you manage, how do you kind of build plans and do the financials and how all of the back office work that support the technical work that has to happen. And so for me, that was like the entry point. Like, okay, I'm starting to understand like this business side of things in a more formal way. Companies did really well. They were acquired by a much larger company. And so we went from that point, maybe about 200 to five or 6,000 overnight. And I stayed a few years with that position. And it just wasn't much for the big company feel and felt like slowly I was turning into an employee number and it was, hey, format the report and send it over here and then reformat it and send it over here and then reformat it and oh my God, it was killing me. And I ended up running away and going back technical. I want a hundred percent back technical. For me, the cube, I'll bang all of those. So I did that for a little while. And at the time of the company, I was working at the technical and then I was supporting them a little bit in the program management office. So fast forward at that point, I kind of felt like, okay, well, I think I can jump. I'll just give this thing a try on my own. And I felt really strongly at that point that I could do technical work, right? Give me a new technology program. I could figure it out, right? I knew how to code. I knew how to develop. I knew how to think, right? From an engineering perspective. And I felt like I learned there like how to manage small gigs, big gigs. And so I could do the work and I could run the work. I had no clue. How did you win a hundred million dollar contract, right? Where did that come from? What did you do? You missed on that part. It was the development side. Yeah. I'm not gonna knock on doors and get some bucks to cut grass, but how do I get somebody to give me a hundred million dollars, right? And that was forward to me. And so I felt like I was a little light on the business development side and operation side. And so I talked to my mentors that were there and said, hey, I'm thinking about jumping out now. What do you think? And honestly, it was pretty split. Some said you'll never be ready to jump. Others were, take your time. There's little pieces you can pick up before you go. Limit the risk as you jump out, which is also good advice. And so I opted to go do a tour of two other small companies. And same thing, I always go in, I always went in day one and said, I'm gonna start a company. And I don't know where to how, but... You know what I like about that? That shows ethics, right? Some people are going in trying to pretend to hide their intentions. And one of the things that I've noticed, you know, some of my guests have come on and said that they always had 100% ethics and throughout the transactions, right? So even when they're working with an employer, if they were out on their own, they let them know what they were doing so that, hey, I'm not competing with you, but this is what I'm working on. And they found out in the long run that that helped them to be more successful. So I do like, I just wanna interject that part. So go ahead. So you went with the two companies once. Yeah, so I went with two companies and told them, I said, look, I can do work, I can manage work. So if I can come here and I value doing those things, but what I would like to learn are the two things I don't feel strong at, which is more in the business development side, more in the operations side of the business. And so I picked up a couple of those pieces along the way and finally said, well, let's jump in the rest. I'll figure out as we go. And so I jumped out April of 2010. So I'd registered the company a little over a year before that. And I was full-time at that point. It was a company of one. And it was a very real endeavor at that point. So I had a lot of support from home. My wife was very supportive. We had time that also to kind of trade, my wife's a pediatrician and she had worked at that time. She'd been in residency for a few years. And so she's working 78 hours a week and life was just super hectic in her world. And so we felt like we both couldn't be living that same life. And so I was the stable one and kind of do the nine to five, support her through residency. And when she finished, then we clicked. So she had the nine to five. So it's my turn. And then I jumped forward into the business. The other thing that you said you started 2010. Now that's two years after the recession hit, man. Like the recession hit 2008 and 2010, you're starting a company. It's like in the middle of the recession. Did you know the recession was happening? So yeah, I was aware of the dynamics and I was able to shut down. Sorry, good. Yeah, no, because some people in certain industries, maybe they didn't know about it, right? So I just, I know, again, I was in real estate at the time. So we, I mean, we felt the force, the full brunt of everything just closing down. Like, you know, in terms of buildings, abandoned, projects abandoned. I mean, whole communities of unbuilt homes just sitting there, like, I mean, we saw it. Like, you know, so that's what I'm wondering. I'm like, you started right in the middle, right during that time. Yeah, I mean, it's tough, but in this space, especially, when we started off, all we were doing was DOD related work, right? So in that space, there's often more people than the sooner there's more work than people. And so if you're in the right spaces and right environments, you understand their systems, et cetera, that are mission-critical systems, there's usually a home for people like that. And so I felt like, yes, it's risky, but it was the risk a little bit by knowing that environment and kind of knowing that there was opportunities to do it there. And I think for me, the other part that was, that really kind of was a driving force was going back to, again, we knew who we wanted to be, right, and who we wanted to be was, was broader than just some government contractor, right? For us, it was, how do we create this organization that uses technology as a vehicle, as a tool to improve the world, right? And so for us, it was a much bigger vision. And so what was happening at that time, really was largely irrelevant, right? Because it didn't really, it wasn't going to make or break this vision. This vision was gonna happen. We're driving, we're gonna make it happen at any cost. Wow, no, that's wonderful. But I will say this, half of my guests started during the recession. So it seems like there's something too that, starting during the downturn, that a lot of people were transitioning in their lives for whatever reason, or maybe because of that, they had to transition into a different type of organization, or they were forced out of a job that required them to create their own organization. So it seems that when I noticed that trend, I've been looking at that. And when I saw your, it was well, because I saw somewhere I said 2009, but I guess like you said, formally it was 2010, same difference. I see that a lot of people picked up during that timeframe. But I like that I did what you said, you had a bigger vision. So tell us, okay, now you're a one-man company, open the doors, and then what? So, a couple things happened even pre-that. So once you decided to open doors, it was really about how do we make sure the company can be viable? And so we said, well, let's cut all of our expenses. Let's make sure we've got the best shot we can to pump money at the company. So that point had cut my salary by about two-thirds. And we were gonna pump it all into the business and ended up saying, well, the biggest incentive at that point was our mortgage. So we left home, talked to my wife and said, please give us a shot, right? And she agreed. And so you hear stories a lot of times about people starting a company in their basement. We moved and started my mom's basement. So I asked mom if we could move back into the house. So we ended up renting out our house, selling half our stuff for the other half of storage. And my wife was good. She was gracious. She allowed me to really go all in in the company and put up everything in the company to get it off the ground. But she told me, she said, but you got a year. We're gonna need to get back our own place, but you got 12 months. So please just say it took 10. We were in the basement for 10 months and then jumped back out. But that was part of it. During the day, I mean, I told myself I was a software guy. So I'm writing software by day, you know, working on recruiting and the development and sales of the polo rules nights and weekends. And so it really was just described and very organic. And so we went from one and got enough revenue coming in to you then bring on the second person and the third person. And so that was really kind of our growth over the last, the first few years actually. Where did you find your source of revenue? Was it within the DOD or was it outside work? It was, yeah, it started off within the DOD. We were almost exclusively focused there for the first, almost the first half of our life. We started to make a really big pivot, I'd say a little over 40 years ago. Okay, were you a sub or prime? Sub, yes, to start off with a sub. We did have one prime engagement early on, but mostly subcontracting work. Okay, okay. All right, and so again, now, like you said, you were a sub, so you were actually doing the work. So you got out, you're bidding the contracts, you're pricing and then you're coming back and doing the work at the same time. That's right. That's right. That's kind of neat, huh? Like during those, during those days. I've listened, I've listened, I've just been asking, I mean, I've listened to you, I'm like, wait a second. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, during those early days, right, you're trying to get enough revenue to fuel the company. And I hear all the time about, you know, contractors and folks that, you know, oh, they haven't invoiced this in time, all that. I tell you, the pay period was over on the 15th at 5 p.m., I was invoicing at 5-0-1. And so we needed the revenue to make sure that we were there. So we were very timely on top of all of those pieces, but it really was that one delivery at a time that we were able to kind of build the company in and slowly bring on more people. Now, some things that I've heard before, because again, I'm not in that space, some people say there's IC, the intelligence community, and then there's IT. Can you tell me what's the difference with, you know, the internet IC versus IT? Yeah, yeah, so IT is really the capability. And people use IT in a really broad sense, right? Correct. So people think IT when they, I need to call the help desk, right? And people think IT when I need a website bill. People think IT when they think, you know, I want to put myself in the cloud, right? And again, all these big buzzwords. And so IT has become a little bit overused, I think. And so most people outside of the industry may repurpose this general IT, but that could be design and development and machine learning and artificial intelligence and web applications and mobile apps. Like all that's under the guise of IT. So most people that aren't in the space. And so that's really more so a capability versus the IC, the intelligence community, is a component of the department of defense. And so that's where you have your three letter agencies, you know, the NSA and the CIA and all of those pieces kind of live within the intelligence community. So there that is kind of a constant, but not necessarily the capability. Okay. So you can do IT for federal work. You can do IT for healthcare, or you can do IT for the IC. IC. Intelligence community. Right, right. I feel like, again, sometimes like what you just said, people looking outside looking in, when you hear people say it, because again, I've only seen people say it almost in like, how do I say this nicely? So it's like, it's like, when you say IT to them and they're IC, it's derogatory or something like, they feel offended that, you know, that you say, well, they go, no, no, I am in IC, not IT. And I'm like, okay, I was like, all right. If I heard, if someone mispronounced a letter, it's easy to confuse it too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now, so you still, you're building the company up and you're winning contracts, you're bidding contracts, you're doing the work, you hire your first person. How long before you felt like, I would say, like before you felt like, okay, this thing is working and I know you moved out, like you said, within a 10 months, you beat that one mark. But again, where did you feel as though like this, like you really start to take off and this thing had wings? I think when we started pivoting outside of just DOD, and that was a little over four years, because it was about five years ago. And so a number of things happened, like at the same time at that point. Number one, we were, we had been groomed and grew out of a cyber security incubator. So we're an incubator program at UNBC, which helps and supports businesses as they grow and move into data Baltimore, so moving the city. And that was a little bit uncommon during that time. So most of the folks will, especially within the DOD world, they try to either get on base or right next to the base, they're affiliated kind of in that world. And so we were moving the opposite direction, which didn't seem normal. But for us, like again, we had this bigger and broader vision that we just don't, we don't want to be known as just a defense contractor, rather than contractor, right? We have this vision of like what this world could be. And so that was a big shift. And we had people that were working on site at these different facilities. That was one of the biggest complaint that we had. People said, hey, we're pitching a lot and we're talking a lot about culture. Well, you know, we've got two folks over here and these two young ladies are working on this project and these two guys are working over here in this building and they're scattered and it didn't feel like you were connected and this family feel that we talked about. So we made a pretty hard pivot and said, well, we want our people to work together. We're gonna pull them all out and we're gonna work together. And that didn't, for some people that worked for, some people didn't, right? But it was a hard step that we were gonna make. And so we did that and started recalling everyone essentially and re-evaluating all of our contracts and see which ones we had if we were able to pull people back into our facility. And so we moved into downtown Baltimore. That was first. That was the first time we had all been in the same facility working together. And when we came here, we had... So let me ask you this. So you were putting like FTEs on jobs before? That's correct. Okay. Correct. Yeah. And so we stopped doing that and start to slowly roll people off into our facility. And so we had maybe about 15 people or so when we moved into Baltimore City. And at that point, we started to say, well, let's get into some other markets, right? What are the other areas that we care about, right? We care very much about healthcare. And so healthcare became one of our targets that we wanted to try to get into. Now, I spent the last decade or so learning about DOD, right? And so I spoke DOD. And so I go to these initial healthcare meetings and I'm immediately the dirty car salesman because they're saying Medicare, part this and that and I'm like, I have no clue what any of you guys are talking about. No. But we do IT, right? Yeah. I don't think that works. And so how we actually... And so we were knocking, it just wasn't like the connection just wasn't happening. And it didn't work until actually my wife, she was supporting a Baltimore Medical Systems running a program there that manages the school-based healthcare program here in Baltimore City, which puts positions and health suites within local schools for the kids. And she wanted to consult, thought about, how do I make, again, think about our impact and was considering consulting. And I said, well, wait a minute, you speak healthcare. I don't speak healthcare, but we can do IT. I always figure out how to marry these together and see if we can grow. And so she actually came on board, became our health innovation officer, and she launched our healthcare practice within the company. So she ran that for a couple of years and so that gave us visibility into the new space. And then the Small Business Administration, again, the civilian space became a huge customer of ours and how that happened was, actually through one of their certifications, you're talking about HubZone, HubZone is very near and dear to who we are as a company. And for those who are looking that may not know, HubZone stands for Historically Underutilized Business Zone. And it's really the government's way to potentially pump resources into communities and neighborhoods that need them. And so they can be communities that have a sociable income, communities with historically high unemployment. Maybe there's a disaster area that a hurricane or something that's hit, and it's indeed the HubZone that sets this track. And so as the federal government, which is the largest buyer in the world, sets various goals to who we want to do, X percent with women-owned businesses or Y percent with veteran-owned businesses. There's actually this segment called HubZone, which a lot of people aren't aware of, that we want to do X percent with businesses that are willing to locate higher people in these areas. And so we kind of felt like that fit the spirit of who we were as a company and wanted to get back in. We started to learn more about this program. And the more we learned about it, we ended up doing our certification and we started digging through the numbers and saying, wow, this is a great program. But the more we talk to government buyers, we realize that a lot of them are like, hey, it's a great program, great program. When we look at the data, the data says, well, no one went to the generalization across the board. On average, the government does not make its numbers. And so we're engineers. We kept asking, like, why? Why? We kept trying to fill the onion. And we crushed the numbers. It was somewhere northwards of $8 to $9 billion annually that was eligible in in-law that was eligible to be spent in the communities that wasn't getting there. And so just huge disconnect, right? How do you have $8 to $9 billion on one side and then you have people that can't find a job, right? And then you go, something's wrong there. Something's wrong. And so we took upon ourselves and said, okay, well, let's look at what's wrong and let's see if we can figure out how we can help. And as we kept digging, it came down to two things, right? They have some issues with policy and they have some issues with technology, right? And on technology side, the map was old, the map was dated. It was often reporting like the wrong information. And so it couldn't give people assurances and businesses that should I move into this area, is it gonna disappear tomorrow and I can't relocate my business every year? When was this? How long ago was this? This happened in, it must have been in 2015 or 2015. Wow. Okay, keep going. I didn't know this. I didn't hear this story. Yeah, so we kept digging, kept digging, kept digging. It said, okay, well, there's a long rope and we can advocate to help to fix policy, which is how we got involved with the Hubs Health Council and things like that. But the tech, we can fix the tech. This is what we do. And so what we ended up doing was we scraped all of SBA's data and we built our own map and said this is what it should be and this is how it should perform and this is how you can help to create the framework that would allow the program to grow. It went from a small map prototype to a compliance system called Hub Founder that we were gonna use internally to track, how do you hire people and recruit them to train them and kind of advance the program. Other certified firms started asking us, like, hey, what do you use? Can we use that? And so this went from a little pet project to a national beta. And it's actually that tool that caught SBA's attention and they called this one day and said, hey, we heard about this thing you're doing. We want you to kind of stop. We want you to consider doing this for us. So we were awarded a contract to modernize all the Hubs Noh technology nationwide for SBA. And so the new map that you see is actually a map that we built for the program as a part of the modernization. And that is one of the big pieces that allowed us to break out of just doing DOD work, right? So DOD work is great. It's, you know, lives are being saved and we're doing a lot of important work there that we can't talk about. We can't talk about. We can't show. So this became a thing we could show. We were able to perform well on that and ended up winning a contract to modernize all of SBA.gov. So we now actually run the entire face of the Small Business Administration. So SBA.gov, that's us. So our team's been able to take that and to reimagine that. And then it was kind of off the races since that became for us, again, coincided with when we moved into downtown Baltimore. And it started to really help us to hone our story and to figure out who we were and what we believed in how we want to work in all of those teams, all of those things. And so we started to learn ourselves, right? And what made us tick. And then kind of, I think that was the moment where we felt like, hey, I think we're on to something. And every time we felt like we've hit a crossroads and we used to lean in to just be yourself, be our authentic self, it's always worked out in the long run. I think you gave a talk about that once. Mm-hmm. Someone shared a talk that you gave about, I don't know how many years ago it was, but I read that you gave a talk and I'm trying to think of what you said, how you said it. But it was something along that lines of what was it? And I hate to miss quote people. Let me see if I can find it. You know what I'm talking about, right? You remember the one I'm saying? Okay. I'm not sure the exact one, but I'll give you a short story of kind of, and it's just small, but it was just interesting. Again, it kind of bring forth, be yourself. We got invited by this organization called USDS, United States Digital Service. And they were doing, and they're out of a White House, out of the White House. And they're really driving a lot of change as a result to people that are thinking about doing technology and design differently within the federal government. And how we kind of build better capability that supports, you know, residents and citizens here, kind of within the country. They were birthed out of the healthcare.gov crisis that happened a number of years ago under the Obama administration. And so they were doing an event in the White House, a procurement fair. And they were invited a group of small businesses in to kind of hear the perspective of what's working and what's not working with the procurement. And I remember going to this thing, I remember we got the invitation. It was like, oh, we're going to an event at the White House. And this one, we were hooked on our T-shirts and hoodies and all that other stuff. And we were really comfortable like not being like- I was saying, wait, I see you in the hoodie. That's how I dress, I'm the same way. Yeah, and it's funny, like I remember going in and we had this kind of debate in the company, like, this is what we wear every day. Like, let's just go casual, let's just go and where will we normally wear? If you're like, oh no, we got the food on, we can't go like the White House event and like not dress up. And we went back and forth and back and forth. And we were like, well, let's just be us, that is us. And, you know, we're in a couple of periods, we understand this space and we've got some strong thoughts about what's working and what's not. So remember, we went on T-shirts, right? And I remember, you know, most people there were dressed up and I remember getting a bunch of like business cards that day and one really stood out. There's this guy who actually called coming to my apartment today. He had a card and said, hey, my name is Chris. And he says, I helped the government get shit done. And they were like, that's interesting. And so like, up all the cards, that's what we looked at and we were like, who's this? It was like, that was probably like the only website we went to. We were like, who are these folks? And they joked around later also talking about like, they were like, who are the guys who have the T-shirts on, right? And so it's funny, like that struck up a partnership and we ended up, not less than a year later, we ended up winning a contract with them, right? And we ended up going into a bid together and became partners and we're still partners to this day. But it kind of spoke to us. Again, every time we kind of lean on it, even if it's a small thing, but just be yourself and be authentic. It hasn't hurt us, right? And it's helped us. And then it gets you more confident to do it again kind of the next time and as you continue to evolve. So I feel like we've really found our voice and who we are, what we want to do, what we don't want to do. And we're okay, turn away work and saying doesn't fit us not along with our values or our mission and we just kind of keep it moving. I found it, as you said, do what you love. That was the one you were talking about, do what you love. That's what you, that was the talk that you gave was called do what you love. Yeah. So, yeah, but no, I like that story as well. I mean, that resonates with me because I think a lot of people, they think that they have to, again, I remember when I was in real estate many, many, many years ago, that they said you put on a mask and you go out to the world. And that just seemed so ingenuous to put on a mask and go out into the world. And I miss, maybe why I never resonated with it because I go, why do I have to put on a mask to go out into the world to put on my else and then come back. And they said, you know, you put on a costume. And I said, well, why can't I just be myself? Yeah. You know, what's wrong with that? And so, yeah, I agree with that. And it's funny, once you do that, your tribe will find you, right? And there's people that believe what you believe and they will find you. And it is the best feeling in the world, right? Because you didn't have to compromise. No, no, no, it's true. And there are people that think what you think and believe what you believe in. And again, in a good way, but you're able to find like-minded folks that you're able to be yourself with, which is great. Now, you were part of a coalition, Digital Services Coalition. Can you tell me about that? Sure. How did you even get involved? Yeah. Yeah, so Digital Services Coalition, we go by DSC. It's a really, really cool organization, right? And so kind of the impetus for it was, I mentioned this organization called United States Digital Services, USDF. And there's another organization within government called 18F, out of the General Services Administration. And so we're both big fans. We're big fans of both of those organizations. They both lead and drive a lot of change as far as modernization of Digital Services. And this is how you should think about technology and this is how you should think about procurement. And this is how you bring like agile methodology and agile methods to delivering capability. And so big fans of theirs. To date, we've not found like a really strong industry response to USDF. There's a really cool organization called AGL Agile Government Leaders. That's a mix between government and industry. And so they're driving a lot of really, really cool things that are happening. But just from a pure vendor perspective, like where was our track, right? Where do we kind of commiserate and talk about things and provide our perspective? Kind of what a non-profit had on it, not going in like, I'm coming fearless and I want work, but it's like, no, we're here to advise and to give you what's called as a best practice as a band of organizations. And so it was kind of jumped up by a partner out of coming called Agile Six, Robert Rathnison. And he kind of called a couple of folks and it started going from there and said, kind of cast a vision and we got super excited about that. And so we were in from the early stages. And so there's about 16 of us, the founding folks that joined the organization. And I was voted to be a part of the five person steering committee that I got it off the ground. Like, all right, you five, go figure it out. Go get the thing organized and register it. Go kind of make it happen. And so what an exciting time to work with these digital services professionals all across the country that are really like the top of their game as it relates to digital services. And I'll give you kind of a quick, super quick kind of overview, right? And so the folks that kind of within this organization, these are the companies that either built or currently running healthcare or say healthcare.gov, login.gov, search.gov, challenge.gov, FBA.gov, the VA.gov, VEX.gov, leading transformation across, I think Medicare may be in there as well, leading transformation across the state of California and the state of Connecticut and a handful of others. And those are just the ones that can rattle off at the top of my head, right? So the organization is pretty deep and they really understand like this space. And so it's great to be able to bounce ideas and share and to collaborate and to offer our perspectives to kind of what's happening in this space. And so DSC is still relatively new, but I'm sure folks will be hearing lots about them in the time to come. How does someone become involved? Yeah, so keep an eye out on the social media feeds. There will be an intake process. And so I'm no longer on the board. So we'd like to get a new board and board president Dan Lovaston out of Advocates as well, kind of running the charge. And so they're working through the intake process. And so there should be some information about that. Shortly, I think there will be an intake this year. Kind of some ideas we've kicked around the past and this may say that we will have organizations trying to grow too fast. And so organizations that are part of DSC can nominate one company to come in as well. And so at most we will double, but we will try to keep kind of reins on the growth of the organization. So open to small businesses today. What types of companies are you guys looking for? So it's all digital services firms, right? So there's gotta be proof of digital services firms. So you have some that may be really hardcore on the design side. You've got some that really are strong on clock computing. You may have some that are just on the peer like web application development or mobile application development. Some that are stronger in the content space and content management kind of space. And so it really spans the gamut as far as the capabilities across teaching and training, agile coaching, digital transformation, especially in general. So all of those things are agile management and you name it, all the things that are a part of that world, this group is pretty comfortable with. You wanna give out the website address? Sure, digital services coalition.org. Okay, thank you. And we will have all that information on the show notes page of the website once this is released. So is there a timeline on it when you guys are gonna be looking for someone? Is this 2020? Is that fair? My understanding is 2020. So I'm not, I can't, I don't speak on behalf of the organization. Okay. So the border, you'll get official comms but my understanding is sometime in 2020. All right, stay on the, just follow the information on the website. I'm learning, I'm learning. I'm learning, I'm learning, I'm learning. Listen, a couple of things that we're gonna let you go we're approaching the hour mark. You recently hit 100 persons, employees. Congratulations. Thank you, sir, thank you. Yeah, actually I read an article about you when you were at like 32. How does it feel? It feels good. I wanna say I think early on, isn't our name is Phyllis, I think I was scared of growth early on and not growth for the sake of growth but culture was such a big piece and I was nervous that we were gonna break it and not sure that we had the right structures in place to make sure the culture we're trying to build would be able to sustain if we grew too fast. And so we're putting a lot of those, like any organization like those growing pains and as we put those things in place, it's cool to see that we're embracing it and for us, it's really growing not just for the sake of growth, we're growing because we feel like there's a need. There's a need out there, right? We envision a world with good software powers things that matter. And there's a lot of things that matter that aren't being powered by good software. And so for us, there is a space for that. And again, not just for us, we don't intend to be in the game alone but how do we bring on partners and other vendors? And so we started to be even incubator. So we're running incubator now. There's 13 companies that we're incubating right now. And so really proud of that work and all the bumps and bruises that we've had, we're able to kind of share that with other folks coming out of the fight. You said that really fast. Good software that power things that matter. Powers things that matter. Okay. All right. You said it really, it just rolled off your tongue. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm a fast talker. Sorry about that. Well, and so am I, but I've learned through doing many episodes that I want to repeat it. So people understand for the transcripts, at least. Good software that powers things that matter. That's correct. The other thing that I saw is that you recently appointed yourself CEO. Any hard to CEO? Or you appointed someone to CEO? How did that happen? Or what made you decide to make that move went from president to CEO? Yeah, and that's funny. Like a lot of people that have been around for years, you're like, CEO, like, what were you doing before? And it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it. Because again, people also, people also interchange those titles very commonly, particularly small businesses. They do. And to CEO, the chief executive officer, it just never felt right. We were, you know, started off, we were a company of one and there were no other executives, right? And so yes, I can be a chief, but I'm the chief of myself, right? And so it just, it just never felt right. And so for us, as we kind of scaled and we're growing, we were able to ride out our leadership team and our executive team last year. And so all the folks that we've been kind of praying for and hoping for, wishing for, were finally a part of the team. And so it felt like that was the right time. In addition, my partner, John Foster, we wanted to move up and so for him, really driving, you know, the kind of day to day. And so for me, it's really how do we cast the vision and how do we figure out like what, what are the four main things that we need to lean into as a organization? And I'm out there like driving those things. And he's making sure that the home base is, is still kind of established and running and we've got the foundation to be able to scale from. But how did you know, right? So where did you learn that from? Right? Because again, none of this doesn't happen, it stands like it just doesn't happen. What did you learn as a... Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know if it was a, it wasn't necessarily a book. I think it was necessity. We knew we needed a COO, right? And we knew we needed someone that could run the day to day. And, and so by that natural like boy that was there and he was feeling, it meant that I then had to assume kind of a different role. And so we spent, we spent time thinking to like, what that, what that shift meant and what that shift would look like and what should my roles be with report and what is his role as he moved into the, into the new position. But it was more so kind of bottom up that we just need a role as we grew and we were building a leadership team to then necessitated me being in a different role. But why not vice president? Yeah, good question. I think for me, I am good at strategy. I'm also, I'm the vision guy, right? And, and I love startups. And so it's funny, I... Now you hit a point. Now you hit a hot button with me now. I hit a hot button right there. You're like startup phase. And I joke around with John on the time, right? So we're the place of organization where we're, we've got to figure out, you know, how performance reviews work and policies for this and that. And it is, it is exactly what we need to do as an organization to be able to scale. And so we have to do that. And so I was kind of joking around with John the other day, like he's, he's giving life, like organizing and structuring and working with our leadership, like get all these things in place. And I was like, this is giving you life. And it is like crushing myself, right? Not that it doesn't need to happen. It needs to happen. But, but if we've got like a new initiative today, we've got to call a board meeting, right? And we've got to get all of our leadership on board and we've got to get buy-in and all that, which is again, what we are as an organization. That's great. But as a startup guy, I'm like, give me a little baby budget and like put me in a closet and like let me go create things. For me, I need to like blank canvas to be able to create and like dream things up. You know, startup in my sense, in my world, right? If all that was required before I started to feel this, I probably would've never started to feel this, right? It is their job to provide a shield and to be risk averse to certain things that don't make sense, right? And that's what being an entrepreneur is like, you may be doing the thing that people say is impossible. It can't be done or it shouldn't be done. And you've got to will yourself do that. And so I think in this role, I'm able to keep driving out front. What do I see coming? What do I see coming and how do I go create? So with our incubator Hutch, Hutch is a startup. So I get to create, you know, and think about the incubator and what that looks like. And I get to help, you know, a bunch of other companies, 13 other companies in the incubator, like their startups. And so like I get energy from that. Some of our community initiatives, we've got a community initiative called Hack Baltimore, where we're trying to really try to get a handle of like all of these challenges that are within the city and how do we bring technical solutions to them that is a little different than a traditional hackathon. And so a traditional hackathon, you have a bunch of people that might get together over the course of a weekend, you know, Friday to Sunday, and they build some cool stuff. And then Sunday night, they go home and Monday, again as a generalization, you know, a lot of those projects will die come Monday morning. Right. And so for us, it's about was, well, how do we fix something with the eyes towards sustainability and fix it? Is it sure that it stays fixed? And so we're launching a new initiative called Hack Baltimore that we're dreaming up and got a lot of really great community partners that are supporting this initiative. But to me, again, that is a startup, right? So I get to go and work with a cool team and just create and be scrappy and make it happen. We've got a new office in Montgomery, Alabama that we're starting up. That's a startup. It's a new thing. And so for me, being able to drive those initiatives are kind of what keep me, they keep me jazzed up. And so if I can, if they become things and I get to roll them into the company and John will figure out how to scale it and plug it in and all those things, right? But I get to stay up front. So it puts me in a good state. I love it. No, I told you, when you said that, that was like a personal hot button for me because I'm the same way. It's like, I like to build it up and then, okay, turn it over to somebody else and let me go start something else and build that up and create that. So that resonated with me personally, that part, right? Got it, got it, got it. I'll show you that. Now, you talked about the Alabama thing. We're not going to touch on that. But what about this DevSecOps? So tell us about the DevSecOps, Platform One, Handscom, CSO team that you're on that VOA. How is it going? Yeah, so that's interesting. So that's a play, I'm going to just call it Level Up. And the Air Force is doing some really interesting things. They're probably one of the most forwarding that we've seen, that we've experienced within DOD now. And it started off with this organization out of an Air Force called Kessel Run out in Boston. And so what they did out in Boston was they were able to get folks off base into kind of downtown, work with partners, and vendors, community, et cetera, and in order to build capability in a different way. And so they thought about design and what that means to think about design differently. They thought about what it meant from a DevOps perspective and how to think about deploying capability into users' hands more quickly. What does it mean to do iterative development across the board? And the term they use, and I'm not in love with the term, but is with the software factory. And they did really well. And the latest numbers that I saw, that they've saved the Air Force over $500 million, right? And some of the applications that they've developed and built. And so what that did was that created a lot of plugs and a lot of energy around these software factories and some call them solution centers or whatever it is, the term. And so Level Up becomes this vehicle that is going to be open after the Air Force, but all the DOD, where they're able to get capability. So they need to buy agile teams to be able to prove out design and development and to go through their approved pipelines and build additional pipelines of how capability can get to the users across the board in a more holistic environment. That's the mission that it is. So we're really excited about that. Excited about where they're going. And we're seeing kind of similar pockets of really good energy across the federal government and not just Air Force. Air Force is definitely, from my perspective, leaving a charge for a lot of DOD. Wow. That sounds a lot like what they're doing with CSOs and OTAs. Yeah. Yeah, so from the OTA front, it's just, again, people are thinking about, you know, this term we're starting to see a lot, you know, a nontraditional vendor or nontraditional contractor. And if you ask them what that means, you may get a slightly different answer. The best I can figure out is like, people keep asking, how do I get the people that look more like the West Coast companies to do business with the government, right? And not the traditional, you know, beltway bandits that have been around forever, right? And so someone that maybe it's doing commercial work that maybe doesn't know a lot about government. How do you get them kind of in, thinking differently, bringing different energy, bringing different ideas? And so OTAs are a mechanism in which they're able to get to some of these nontraditional vendors. But yes, a lot of these vehicles, they're looking at, you know, really the model is starting to be, you know, show us, don't tell us. And that's just, you know, not just the idea, but across the board, the West Coast is driving that, AT&F is driving that, which is as a part of your proposal response, we want to see your code, right? We don't want you to just write pretty, we want to see what you actually do to work. You know, oral interviews are being a big part. And so we're seeing lots of things that have code challenges. And so I think that is, you know, starting to be much of the norm as you see kind of this digital services transformation taking place across the country. Well, well, some, you know, I did a lot of small businesses out there. Same thing, start off one person business to a three people business. I noticed that you didn't go the certification route. I mean, you got the hub zone certification, but you didn't pursue certifications as part of your strategy. What would you say? I mean, cause it seems like a very common strategy that people go out and get certification. Yeah. Yeah. So we're hub zone. We were hub zone and we're 88 as well. It can be a part of your strategy, but to me, it is, they are tools, right? They are tools, but they can't be the vision, right? And so if your vision is, we want to be a government contractor and when there's many contractors who can't just throw people and make a ton of money. Okay. Could you do that? Could you build a business like that? Yes, you could. But for us, again, if you have this vision and this mission that is bigger than yourself, that you're trying to drive and grow, I don't think there's anything wrong with using those as tools and able to help you get there. Again, I mean, you think about, you know, any of these small business certifications and you talk about, you know, hubs on AAR, womanhood, et cetera, they're built by your small business, right? And so if you ever intend to be a large business, those will no longer apply. And so they're all time bound, right? If you continue to grow and you want to make a broader impact across the board, which we do. And so for us, we were able to use them as tools and they're great tools and great resources that are all there for a reason. But only if that becomes the only part of your strategy, I just don't think it's a winning strategy. It's interesting because I didn't see anywhere on there that's for ADA. Yeah. We are. We are. So we're in our last couple of years but we don't sell with that. No. We sell with our capability. You don't leave, you're not meeting with that at all. That's right. And we're happy to compete on the open field against anybody in our craft. We know what we're doing. We're pretty good at it. And so we're happy to compete. Fantastic. Tell us, as you close out today, what do you think are some of the challenges that you see with small businesses and maybe how they can overcome it and your personal experiences of what you've seen out there in your space? Yeah. The first thing is they do not know who they want to be. And so they do not start with why and why are you here? Why are you starting a business? What are you looking to get out? Why are you looking to do this? What are you looking to help? They're not clear about that. So I think that's the first thing that it takes a little bit of soul searching to be able to figure that out. I think the second thing is lack of focus. You asked a bunch of these companies, what do you do when they start talking about contracts? Oh, I'm on just a schedule and I'm on this is that contract. I'm on this contract. No, no, what do you do? How did they work on that? What do you do? Right. Oh yeah. We got a tech writer here and we got a developer here and then we do some construction over here and we build cars over here and we sell t-shirts and it's all a little place. So they don't have a true capability. Their capability is we are a body shop and we just throw people at work and then we might scale it. Maybe we sell it and we go do that somewhere else. And I think in this new age, it's got to be led with capabilities. You have to be good at something and lead and sell with that but I think it's a lack of focus for folks. And some final parting words? Part of words. You mentioned it early on, do what you love. And so thanks for bringing that back but absolutely do what you love. Life is too short to not and so you find something that you're passionate about and you can drive. And again, if you can do that in a way that's bigger than yourself, you ought to lean into that and figure out how you can lead this world a little bit better than without it. To Lolly, thank you so much. All right, thank you. Hey guys, how'd you enjoy the episode today? One of the things that I thought was interesting about the episode and talking with him is how he scratched his own itch and when he realized that the HubZone map was not working properly, he decided to build a better mapping system. And he took his team and his company and his resources and build a better system. Well, what happened next? Well, the SBA came calling. And that is the perfect example of small business and entrepreneurship and how we're nimble and lean and agile. And this is given today's situation as the release of this episode with COVID-19 and the pandemic. We small businesses have a huge opportunity where we can come in and create change and make a difference and make an impact to our country, our nation, our communities, right? Just by banding together, sharing in ideas, sharing resources, and then essentially scratching our own itch. So if we see that there's something that needs to be done rather than waiting for someone to come do it for us, we go out and we create the solution. And again, that's just kind of what I want to touch on with regard to this episode. I thought, made it all come together 180 degrees for me personally. So again, thank you so much for watching as always. We're listening to this episode. Whether Garless, what we like to do is, again, any and all questions, answers are gonna be on our show notes page at govconjines.com for its last podcast. For more information about the Lylee and his company, check us out on the web at govconjines.com. Thank you so much for watching. Have a great day. Stay safe. We love you all.