 I was in a line with a black lady who had like a MAGA hat and in front of me was like another lady who had a MAGA hat and they're looking each other like finally like a chance where we can talk about like good conservative values and they look at me and they're like yeah more black people who agree with us and I'm like I'm also in this line. Yeah, yeah. Hey, I'm Ty. Okay. What brought you to CPAC 2020? This is an anthropological expedition for me. Oh, awesome. Okay, so you're studying humans more or less? More or less. Okay. I'm from Alaska. Nice. I'm non-Republican. Okay. And what the Republican Party's in charge. Yeah. They're shaping our country more than anybody else and I wanted to come and learn about folks and I've grown up in a much different political environment than that. Tell me about the political environment in Alaska. Well, in Alaska, it's a red state by and large but when I say by and large it means my neighborhood. Which is not. Okay. So I was born in California. I'm in Tennessee right now but California has its string of red governors. It's never voted blue but it runs very much in a, actually it runs pretty terribly, but it runs very much like we're not a red state even though we have a Republican governor. I'm wondering like on a personal level, where are your values at? Like what's a topic that means a lot to you? You know, being in Alaska, climate change is a big one. So there's no theory to it. Your village is falling into the ocean. There's fisheries which are involved in which are tanks because the oceans get warmer. We've moved well beyond debate about when and what is happening. So you can see around here there's a lot of people that would deny climate change, right? Have you heard any good arguments from them with regard to it or anything that makes you pause a bit? I've been engaging with minority folks here that are interested in the country and there are. There's a growing interest within the party. Towards recognizing climate change? Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I had met the young conservatives for putting carbon dividends in place. I just came out of a family business. They were conservatives that recognized that climate change is real but they wanted to develop a means to enable a reduction of regulations but also profit for people at the same time too. The numbers that they were quoting me didn't seem feasible at the point but I respected the fact that they're a conservative group that recognizes climate change is a real thing. My background by the way is I'm a scientist and I've worked towards making biodiesel as a need because we know we need supplementary fuel platforms and we know that if we make a report that details or says the word climate change in it, it most likely won't get published because we are in a political climate where stuff like that gets not as much research funding as we would like. So what's your take on the ability of deregulation to curb climate emissions? Is this better? Cool. I'm sorry, could you say that again? I'm curious to get your take on the proposal I'm hearing here. One of the pillars is deregulation as a means to, as a pillar to reducing our emission. I'm just curious to get your take on whether you think that might be a viable approach. Dude, it's such a complicated thing because companies have people dedicated trying to figure out any way possible to make their company be better than others but also to avoid having to spend money on regulations whatsoever. Like entire groups, floors and divisions dedicated for just that sole purpose. I worry if by deregulating we're making it easier for them to skirt loops. Like I feel like those regulations were put into place because someone caught a loophole and so they're trying to plug a loophole. And right now we have a really bad situation where there's a lot of fingers in the well wall which is like the variety of different regulations that we have. But they're there to plug clear holes that were initially put. Maybe we just need a consolidated second draft to optimize what worked and to take out what didn't rather than to throw away everything and replace it with a brand new plan. That's my thought. Feel free to ask me questions on that. Yeah, it seems like we've been operating on more or less a free market economy for decades here. It's led us to a climate crisis and the same economic paradigm that got us to the crisis it's hard to have a lot of confidence it's going to be the same paradigm that leads us away. I hear that too. Are you worried particularly in an event like this about the future? Like maybe even Alaska or anything? Absolutely. Okay, okay. Like obviously is it just climate change or is it more of like a, is it like, I don't want to feel, like could you give me like your top three like major concerning things beyond climate change? Because I don't want to put words into that. Divisiveness is right up there. Divisiveness is really, really huge. And that's part of what I'm intrigued by what you're doing right here. Thank you, thank you. And part of why I came here too is I had this, so here's a funny thing. I could show you a picture of what I looked like four days ago. Okay, yeah. Before I took the hair and all the beard off and borrowed these clothes from a friend of mine. All you got to do is shave, cut my hair, walk in here, and everybody here knows what my, they think they know who I am. I see. Yeah, you look the part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people tell me, God, everybody here is just so friendly. It's like one big family. But they knew I was different. Yeah, sure. You want to know this? When I had my suitcases here and I'm like lining up and we're getting ready to build our booth, I was in a line with a black lady who had like a MAGA hat and in front of me was like another lady who had a MAGA hat. And they're looking each other like, finally, a chance where we can talk about good conservative values. And they look at me and they're like, yeah, more black people who agree with us. And I'm like, I'm also in this line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so there's assumption about who you are. Right, right, right, right. So I think it's going around regardless of what your skin tone is. But it is an interesting thing. Like you have a better disguise than I do. I do. I did, right? All I had to do was shave, you know? It was a bigger challenge for you. Right, right. Though how, you know, do you think that it's impossible or what kind of walls do you foresee as a liberal maybe having an out talk with a conservative here? Because I can tell you I'm in more or less the same boat as you are. But I've found that if I make it a conversation rather than a debate or an argument, and we just sit down and get away from an audience and just say like, what do you believe and why do you believe it? And instead of being like, here are your conclusions and here are my counter facts, it's more of like, can we work together to figure out why you believe this and see if that's the best option or if you're using a reliable way to reach that conclusion or not. So here's the real reason I'm here. Talk to me. It seems we are voting in our collective disinterest on some major issues. That means what? Climate change is being one of them. And I'm baffled that we can't find leaders that articulate policies and directions forward that would benefit 80% of us. You know, economically, you know, East Generation right now is the worst off economically than the one before on. Economy is booming for who? You know, it's not for me. And it's not for a whole bunch of other people that are here buying mega hats. But how come we can't come together and find policies that benefit 80% of us? Yeah. And so I was wondering how much blame do I have? How much of my rhetoric is adding to the divisiveness? That's a good thought. So I'm just going to come. Cool. And see where I can find common ground and shake people's hands and see if I can get a burger and a beer with them. Can I make some advice? Yes. All right. So what we do here is called street epistemology. And if you want to talk about divisiveness, I live in Tennessee and I'm an atheist, right? And I talk to a lot of religious people. The tenor of the conversations is not what you might immediately think when it's an atheist talking to someone who's in a God. Because we actually have a lot of common ground who just disagree on one thing, on whether or not we believe in a God. Everything else we can't agree on. Values, family, love, life. More than 80%, I can agree with most, every single person who has like a very devout fundamental belief in a God. And we can see eye to eye in a five minute conversation to the point where by the end of the conversation we can work together to find out how they arrive at a God belief, realize that may not necessarily be the most reliable way to reach that conclusion. And they'll be like, maybe I shouldn't be as close minded on my God because now that I met someone who's an open minded atheist, I can at least say, hey, there's different people out there. I'm willing to reconsider my beliefs where they came from. And maybe there's a better platform for me to stand on than just, this is what my God told me. So you engage in this type of conversation but more focus on the religious aspect. No, I literally talk about whatever someone wants to. But I will deal with religion a lot because I often open the conversation with, let's talk about something that motivates you, what means a lot to you. And in Tennessee, it's religion. Though here it's been politics and I'll talk with people who are, I'm absolutely pro-life at the end of say like a 10 minute talk. I will be willing to have a conversation with someone because I think that's a good point. And then we leave. But I really do believe that there's a lot of division and not enough fruitful conversation willing to be had between different parties. And if that willingness was there and if I can exacerbate that willingness by showing that it's easy and it's possible, that means a lot of people. So do you self-identify as a liberal? No, not really. I'm more of like, I'm liberal about some things and I'm conservative about some things. I like to say I want to hear the issue. I want to know what people are thinking and I'll tell you what my point of view is. But in general, I can, depending on what the topic is, if I had to pick a room, if I had to pick a room, I could say I know what frame of mind I would have to be in to really get along well with a lot of liberals and I think right now I don't like the them and us mentality. Yeah, absolutely. And if people in, for example, that guy's, I don't want to start pointing out, but there are conservatives over there who want liberal things to happen but they're stuck in a conservative platform and a conservative mindset. So they've got liberal ideas they'd like to promote? Yeah, and they're like, man, I think we should try to legalize certain kinds of drugs because I don't like people being arrested for non-violent crimes. It's like, yeah, but you're in the long group because that's what liberal society is. Yeah, but I'd rather change the conservatives because there's no ground for me there. I'm like, and I can talk to liberals who feel probably the opposite on other things, but I feel like most of the time it's just people and their personal values and they're trying to line it up with you know, a square peg with a round hole and they can do with whatever they can. I think every person here is trying to fool themselves that Trump perfectly identifies with them but in a quick conversation you can find contrast and nuance there. Well, you know what's, my experience here has been the most rewarding pieces have been the one-on-ones people I've never met and sitting there, making sure and boom. And then we have this great exchange and then I go to hear the vice president speak and there's some chanting and some kind of mob response. Tribalism, yeah. Tribalism which is honestly spooky to me because what's being cheered is nothing that's well articulated, you know, it's just, they're soundbites. Yeah, yeah, yes. And I can't stand and cheer a soundbite. Yeah. And what's scary is when you talk one-on-one and it's just soundbites that you're getting back. Like, this is the election of our generation. Yeah. We have to close the borders. Yeah, but my one-on-ones have all gone right beyond that. You know, it's like, where are you from and what are you passionate about and they're just great human-to-human conversations. Exactly. And you'd be surprised how many people don't think they can do that. Yeah. I would like to try something. I have two cards. I have my Let's Shack card, that's my YouTube channel. Prodigal Curiosity also produces a lot of content. This one shows where all the people around the world push their videos. If you are willing to, it'd be cool if you kept doing these kinds of talks, but not just at Seatback but also in Alaska when you go back to Alaska. Yep. And just continue to show, continue to have these conversations. If you're ever planning on documenting these talks that you're having, please get in touch with us because we can promote the effort that you're doing. There are people who have like their cell phone on the table and just report a one-on-one conversation with someone that might disagree with them. And there's actually... And so they're doing just audio. There are some people who do just audio. I did just audio for a long period of time. And this is me in Kentucky at a park. This lady was super sweet but we wouldn't normally agree with each other if we were trying to debate or have an argument. By the end, she completely understood where I was coming from and actually reduced her confidence in a position. And what we find is a lot of people are very, very confident in things that they haven't really well researched or well understood. And if you ask them some questions just about how did you arrive at your method, their confidence drops as a reflection of well, I never really thought about that. Yeah. And hence the problem with cell phones? Yes. Because you don't have to back them up with anything. You just say them. You just say them and you hope the other person understands them. And they do. I mean, the vice president knows his crowd. He just throws pieces of red meat out there. Yeah. I feel like we're on the same level on a lot of this stuff. I would love to see you record your talks with people and then maybe get in touch with me and then say like, dude, or even if you want to be on my radio show, I do a radio show every Sunday. If you just want to call and be like, hey, I talked to like four people today or I was thinking about talking to someone next month and I'd be like, cool, man, we're supporting you in Alaska. So your radio show are about stories of doing this? Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So if I had some intriguing conversations, I could call you and just recount it. Absolutely. I talked to this person. I didn't think I'd get longer than here's what happened. Hey, that's exactly what we do. Yeah. And we have people from France, Denmark, South America, Canada, Brazil. I already said Canada. We got a lot of Canadians. Yeah. But there are so many people who are willing to try to promote good conversation between people. And I think it speaks to me in the sense of like, most people aren't interested in that because they already have a story they're comfortable with. And it's like, that story is trash. Just talk to someone on the other side. You can do it. And when you do it, it's going to show you where everything is. So get this. I'm a writer. Oh, cool. So this seatback expedition is just doing some research for a book. Nice. And the other piece of it is going back to my hometown in Alaska where I've got four high school buddies I used to drink beer with. Nice. One of them's a born-again evangelical. One of them is a very wealthy stockbroker, wealth manager guy. Another one's a bishop in the Mormon church. Okay. And I'm a backwood subsistence guy just trying to minimize how much money I have to earn and see how much fish and deer and containers I feed. Nice. So that's just this great diversity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All graduating at the same time. So I'm just making a point of going out and sitting down with each one of these guys and buying them all a burger and a beer. Perfect. And just, I graduated in 1985. Let's catch up. Nice. Nice. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. We have a lady that goes to bars and does the exact same with her group of friends. She calls her channel Sarah After Dark. And she's really, really great. This is Raul. He's a local here. He's a vet. Oh, yeah. And he'll talk to guys on college campuses. Reid makes movies and he's in LA and he has his own style. I just feel like everyone contributes There's no single person that you can't talk to because every single person is different. So as long as someone's willing to have a conversation, there's always going to be someone that you can match with them. And I feel like this will defeat agendas in like 24-hour news cycles or in stumped speeches by political officials who try to turn people against each other because anybody can have a conversation with anybody. And that's not something that you need the money to do. You don't need a YouTube channel. You just need a willingness to go out and do it. Yeah. That's my opinion. Yeah. Yeah, well, I'm all about it. It's a great way to learn a whole bunch about yourself. Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Man, I can't tell you where I thought I was on certain points of view until like I've I've done this only for about two years until I've just met so many people on walks of life. And I was like, I get why you would be like this. I get why this this rule would be this way. So even if I think like this, I empathize with this so much that I could support that. Yeah. Like I get that. Yeah. Step out of myself a little bit. Yeah. This place is not as scary as it looks. Well, you're the first person I've come out to on my political views. It's been good. Cool, cool. Yeah. Please feel free to take my cards. I got it. That's the one where we post. Let's chat. It's my own personal one. I got you. My name's Ty. I'm working on a way to talk to anyone Can I get your info? I can't. I don't have a card. Do you have an email? I do. Let me write it on the back. I got one right here. Sweet. Some guy gave us a Trump pen. We lost it already. I'll get in touch with you. What's up, brother? Do you have like a messenger or do you have like a text? Yeah, I'll give you my phone number. Perfect, perfect. Does your phone get text? It does. Okay, cool. I'm in Alaska. That's a weird time zone. New Zealand calling on the show. 9, 8, 3, 4, excuse me. I'll put the AK time zone. AK time zone. That's four hours difference. Okay, that's not too bad. Yeah. That's not too bad. And I'll make exceptions. I'll call you whenever you're ready to. Yeah. Hank. And just Lenfer, L-E-N-T-F-E-R. Okay. I don't want to do this on camera, but I can read that. And you got my info. Yeah. I'm going to get in touch with you. Okay. If you're willing to be on the show, on the radio show, we'd love to have a conversation. We do it once every week. Yeah. And best of luck to you, man. Yeah. Yeah. And what are you doing with this footage? We're putting it on YouTube if that's cool with you. Is that right? Sure. Yeah? We're live streaming on Twitch right now too. I bet you've got some really nice comments. Yeah? Yeah. I've got plenty of friends who are just this. Yeah. And I think whatever mindset I had, once I knew that I could do this, I don't fear my paranoia has just gone way down. Because I know I can reach out and talk to anybody. Yeah. Yeah. It's been interesting just to feel my own comfort level come and go walking through here because this isn't my tribe. But, uh... There's someone who's in there and I really want to know who does my man. That's why I have the tip in my hand. Hmm! You'll learn how to shake people to be rational and if your tribe is a critical thinker, you can make any a critical thinker. But it takes practice. You aren't born a critical thinker. You have to help people do it themselves. Yeah. And in a one-on-one, you can make anyone apply critical thinking skills. If you look at my video, my video is a sort of weird because I do all bunch of different topics and I'm trying to learn sign language at the same time too. But cordial curiosity also, he's the blue card. He also does S.E. as well. S.E. is what you call this thing. It's street cosmology. And all of our videos combined, plus everyone on the white card, show people having these conversations. And then we do break-downs of like, here's my mindset of how to do an S.E. conversation. And we have our analogies and we have, um, optimized responses to our, uh, logical fallacies that we recognize. Like when someone says, well, I believe it because I was raised to believe it. We have approaches that help them think for themselves why that's a bad reasoning to come to that conclusion. And we make it less about oh, you like, or you believe this is true? Let me attack that position. We don't, we're not attacking the position. We're attacking the methodology that they're using. The epistemology, the method that they're using to know that. Because there's much less ego put into the method people use to get acknowledged. And if you attack that and they realize that they don't have a good method, they'll let go of that conclusion themselves. And that means way more than me telling them to not believe something because they're doing it on their own. So that kind of, uh, training and, uh, and thought that you're, uh, you're just doing it on a monthly basis? I am completely self-taught. I only watch YouTube videos and just go out and do it. Yeah. Um, there are some books that, of guys who've done it a long time, who've written it. Like, there's a guy named Peter Bogosian who wrote How to Have Impossible Conversations. Yeah. And he, he expresses a lot of details. My philosophy is I might meet someone who doesn't want to read a bunch of books to be able to just talk to someone. Yeah. And it's very easy to talk to him with you already. Yeah. I think you already got the skill sense. Yeah. You can't train, you can't read in a book how to be an affable, nice guy. That make sense? Yeah, exactly. You already got the hard part down. Yeah. Now it's just a question of, ooh, that's a good response. I want to keep it on my head. Ooh, he shouldn't have said that. Yeah. I'm going to make sure I don't say that. Yeah. And what I found was by recording myself and listening to myself. You learn a lot. I'm hearing it's like, ooh, I sound like a jerk or I'm speaking too quickly. Yeah. Yeah. My reading for the flight over here was about called Gladwell's Talking to Strangers. Okay. Do you know that book? I know that book, yeah. Yeah. It's got some good stuff in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're definitely a reader. You're a writer. And then I also recommend Seeing In In Action. Seeing In In Action. Seeing In In Action. Okay. I'll send you some links. Please. And then, yeah, if you ever want to do the radio show and talk with us, one hour hangout every week, basically. That's our own. Right on, man. Nice, man. Hang. You filled me up with hope. You're the best people I've talked to here, yeah? Right. See you, man. All right. Great guy. I think that was the first talk where I said, like, I'm an atheist and I did not care what the other person was on the other side. What just happened? He is from Alaska. Make sure they're not talking in the past. Got it. Make sure this is pointing towards you. Got it. Okay. And I can tweak that, Mike, right? Yeah. Okay. He was from Alaska. He came down here not as a conservative, but he knew that the ruling party for his country was Republican and he just wants to see, let me see if I can talk through some Republicans and because he's not, he's liberal, basically, and he's like saying, like, I'm really kind of scared, so I figure I'd come down here and he's like, everyone's treating me so friendly, but I think it's just because I'm white and I got blue eyes and I was telling him about the experience I had in the lines where everyone thinks I'm conservative, too, because they're like, yeah, I'm not a black conservative. Oh, yeah. He's like, I wish there was just a way I could talk to people better and figure out how we can address our concerns, so I was telling him about street epistemology basically for the whole talk. Oh, wow. Giving him our links, telling him about the method and, like, strategies and then giving him points for outreaching. I got his contact. I'll get in touch with him. I'll send him a link to Peter Bogosia's book. He was a writer, so he might like that. Nice, nice. And then we have a radio show that we do, so if he doesn't want to report and say, hey, I have some high school friends who are from different walks of life, here's how our conversations went, and we can give him feedback on what's to do better and stuff like that. Yeah. Bye.