 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, the show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Katharine Norr. Today, my guests are professors at Stockton University, Noelle Naylor, Petter Dobre, and Jennifer Arendt. And our topic today is, Why Say Yes to eSports, the Guide for Parents and Educators. Welcome. So, Noelle, let's start with you. Tell us about Stockton University and your eSports program. Thank you so much for having us today, Katharine. And we're very excited to share what we're doing at Stockton University. This semester, for fall of 2023, we have officially launched a Bachelor of Science in eSports Management. It's a highly interdisciplinary degree, building on foundations across the entire school of business here at Stockton, including hospitality, tourism and event management, business studies, which include accounting, finance, management, marketing, as well as computer science. For students that enroll in our program, they have an opportunity to gain hands-on experience within our university's eSports community, our competitive team, as well as local professionals across a variety of different eSports organizations and our business partners in our Atlantic City market found in the United States and New Jersey. That also includes something called our eSports Innovation Center, which is something run by our local state, where students have an opportunity to not only apply those business fundamentals, but learn how to manage and produce eSports events and develop those skills that are so necessary as part of our experiential learning sequence to make sure they're successful for beyond their higher education experience. So I actually hadn't heard of a Bachelor of Science degree in eSports Management. Is this something that isn't offered by very many educational institutions? So that's a great question. So it's definitely emerging, particularly here in the United States. We're starting to see eSports and the trends in the program offerings grow. There are a few programs that are out there. We're very unique in the sense that ours first is a Bachelor of Science degree. Second, we are accredited by an association called AACSB, which means that we represent top six percent of business schools in the world, which means that we have academic rigor and our faculty meet certain standards and requirements in the field. On top of that, ours is based in event management. We're trying to leverage our internal talent in hospitality, tourism, and event management. So when it looks at programs that have this foundation, we're extremely unique. All right. So many people, throughout my whole show, I've always addressed this issue of parents having some resistance to eSports. And I've often heard guests talk about this. So, Jennifer, why should parents, educators, and administrators say yes to eSports? Well, thanks, Katherine, first of all, for having us on and allowing us to talk about our program and the great things that we're doing here at Stockton. But really, that's a question we get asked by parents all the time. We have career fairs. We have visits to Stockton and parents ask us, what is my student going to learn? Are they just going to come here and learn how to play games? Well, the answer is no. They're not going to come here and learn how to play games. Like Noelle said, our program is interdisciplinary. So they're going to get the accounting classes. They're going to get the management classes. They're going to get the event management classes. And we're going to teach them about the eSports industry. So what we're doing is we're building a program that really creates students that have an abundance of transferable skills that can be used in a variety of different areas. So when the parents say to us, why should my student? Why should my child major in eSports? I don't want them to just play games. They can do more than just that. They could go on and become a marketer for an eSports team. They could go on and work on sponsorships for leagues that do charity work and use games for charity work. They could go on and become maybe a coach, just like there's coaches in traditional sports. There's coaches in eSports. So there's lots of opportunities. And as the technology grows and changes, we're going to continue to see even more of those, whether it's posting, following matches on streaming services like Discord and Twitch. Maybe it's creating the graphics for all of those things. So there's really a lot of opportunities that are not directly tied to actually playing games. And of course, there's lawyers like myself who are involved in eSports. And Noelle and I were just at the eSports Trade Association Conference eSports Next. And we met people in all walks of life. Noelle, who did you meet that were working in eSports and what kind of work were they doing? There were so many different jobs within this eSports ecosystem at that event. There were actually event partners there who were setting up the space and having the digital platforms. There were technology partners that were there to make sure that we could live stream some of the podcast events. There were marketers there, higher education professionals. So there truly are so many avenues here. And there was a great group of individuals that practiced law in this field, which is emergent and ties into so many other areas that sometimes we almost don't think about or take for granted. Sure. Like healthcare professionals, accountants, all sorts of things, they just specialize in eSports and gaming. So, Petter, tell us about kind of an overview of the eSports industry and trends and projections. Yes, thank you, Catherine, first of all, for inviting all of us on the show. So the first question that someone would ask, and which you did ask, is why did we create this program? What is the basis behind it? And so I wanted to give you a few numbers regarding eSports industry. So the reason why we created this degree was to tap in into this new growing industry. So in terms of number of people who are watching games in the United States, and this comes from insider intelligence. So in 2019, we had 21.1 million viewers. This is just for the United States. And in 2022, that number grew to 29.6 million. And it's further projected to grow to 31.4 million by the end of 2020, 2023, and then 34.8 million by 2026. Globally, for the year 2022, the total number of viewers, eSports viewers, was 532 million. And that is also projected to grow by double digits by 2030. Now, in terms of revenue, the global industries estimated to be worth 1.88 billion in 2022. And that is expected to grow by a compounded annual growth data of about 25%, which means that by 2030, the global industry is expected to be worth around 12 billion dollars. Now, the United States alone, the revenue generated by the industry is expected to be, was projected to be about $420 million in 2022. And that is also projected to grow to more than $3 billion by 2030. And so, as you can see, this is an industry that is experiencing significant growth and that is not likely to change anytime soon. And in addition, this is an industry that is likely to be less affected due to economic downturn or recession. So COVID, for example, was a predefined that ended up being a boom for the industry, just because everybody was stuck at home. Some people loved their jobs, and so they were looking for something to do in the meantime, and so eSports ended up being one of those things. Now, in terms of jobs, the picture, it is hard to get a sense of the number of jobs available just because there's many jobs that are not related to the eSports industry that are relevant to the industry. And so I'm just going to quote a few numbers from a platform called Hit Market that is the biggest gaming jobs platform in the world. So in 2019, the platform had a total of 11,000 jobs posted on it. That grew to 39,330 by 2022. We're talking about a four-time increase in the span of a year. And in 2022, that number dropped to about 33,000. So we had a slight drop of about 19% from the biggest year. But nevertheless, over the long term, the expectation is that this industry will continue to grow significantly. And again, I just want to reiterate that the numbers that I'm quoting are a subset, and they're specifically referring to jobs posted typically by companies that make games, so think about Ubisoft, eSports, etc. And so this is just a subset of the true number. So this was the primary reason why we decided to go in and become one of the first universities and just institutions of higher education in the United States that have a Bachelor of Science degree in eSports management. So if I were a student right now, I would be concerned that AI might take that job that I am working so hard to become qualified to get. Do you think that eSports is an industry that might be a little better than other industries or a lot better than other industries in terms of essentially future-proofing those jobs? I'm not sure if this is open for all of us, but I'll go ahead and jump in. So I think that when it comes to AI, because of course we talk about that a lot, in eSports, I think what we're going to see is that, yes, there is going to be some growth in the technology sector, but as Noel described, our program is centered around creating students that have a variety of transferable skills and it's really based out of the events, the tournaments. So people put on tournaments, people attend tournaments, people participate in tournaments and post things and follow the streamers and everybody. So while, yes, there will be some artificial intelligence needs and things out there, I think and we're all confident in saying that what we're training and what we're preparing our students for is for a long career in eSports because there's still going to be that human need. Okay, terrific. That's a very good answer and would probably inspire me as a student to dive into that program. So Noel, what about skills development? Does your program or does eSports help students develop skills like soft skills or skills needed in industry? So Catherine, absolutely and I think this is where we see so much potential in this area because eSports is really in its nancy right now in our area in parts of the United States and it really does foster a wide range of those transferable skills, those soft skills. You might also hear folks report those as the critical 21st century skills and those include teamwork, communication, problem solving, critical thinking, the ability to strategically think. I mean think about how they engage in a game in a team setting and many of those skills are necessary to be successful in today's work environment and if I could add, there are significant connections even right now to eSports and being a gateway for STEM learning. So those that might not be familiar, STEM learning is the sciences, technology, engineering and mathematics and I argue that it also extends beyond that into the ideas of entrepreneurship as well as even events management. So with those, students have an opportunity to learn all of these both soft skills and these technical skills. So as we start to see the market mature, they're going to be prepared because they have the foundation and I think one thing that we haven't heard a lot but our program helps to prepare is that students in eSports, it's really a platform to teach students not only about some of the responsible gaming and I mean that in the sense of you know how do they engage in this environment, this digital environment where we also start to bring in physical space but also what does their digital citizenship role look like in eSports and that's a whole another idea about respectful communication and sportsmanship and fair play and again all of these are skills that are necessary to thrive in a variety of different markets and areas. You know so getting to this argument of why, why to say yes okay one thing that occurs to me is that eSports and your program actually is pretty broad in terms of what a student will learn and what they will gain and also even in gaming it's a pretty you know you're learning teamwork, you're learning so many different things. I would say that there's probably an argument that a Bachelor of Science degree in eSports might be more well-rounded or better than focusing on some narrow tech area. Thoughts on that, what do you think about that Petter? Part of the reason why we designed the degree in this way was to essentially future profit in the sense that even though it's the degree that is called eSports management and it is designed to cater to students who are interested to work in eSports industry, nevertheless we designed the degree in a way to guarantee that our students will be employable in a variety of different disciplines. So going from think about marketing, management, even software engineering, our program also includes two classes on programming, even HR, event management, hospitality. So there is a wide variety of job opportunities for graduates in this field, also communications, information systems. The reason why we did that, because from the very beginning we wanted to design this degree to guarantee that students will be able to transfer the skills to a various set of different disciplines. And so getting a degree in eSports management does not mean that not being able to get a job in the eSports industry means that you are unemployable. So that's a very important point that we always want to stress and we also want to stress for your viewers. So that was how we designed our degree and why we did it that way. So Jennifer, do you think that if you're an employer and your business doesn't have an eSports focus, would you completely disqualify someone who has a bachelor of science degree in eSports management? Well, first of all, I would look at, you know, what is eSports and I would have to educate myself, you know, what is eSports management. But hopefully, you know, looking at what that student has also done, I mean, I know I come from a business background primarily in the casino hotel industry. And I would look at resumes of students that have a variety of degrees. But it's really what what is their experience, because they have a degree in a certain field, then hopefully they're getting some experience that is related to that field. So, you know, someone who just because it says I have a bachelor's of science in eSports, but they're applying for maybe a marketing position in somehow that is related to eSports, maybe it's a company that works in eSports or something, then if they have some experience with it, then I know that they still have that those credentials behind them. And once I would talk to them and see, hey, you know, I know that this school comes from the School of Business and they're learning all of these other things that they have really a strong background. So I think that having the degree is a piece. But then part of our program also does include a lot of experiential learning. We have a professional work experience that's required as well as an internship requirement. So when our students leave, they not only have that degree, but they already have some work experience in some field related to eSports. So Noelle, who is it harder to convince parents, administrators, educators, or students to jump on this bandwagon? That is a tough question, Catherine. And I would say I'm going to pick two of my hardest ones. The first are faculty. And I want to say that because when it comes to establishing a program, you have to establish that it's a valid field of academic study. And how do we do that as educators? Well, we look at what's out there as far as scholarship. So those are peer reviewed articles that we see throughout the higher education scope. And what we find in eSports is it's fragmented. And it's fragmented because as it's emerging, and as we're starting to build it up, we're starting to see that there's some publication and focus on it as an area of academic study in some sports management journals, in some hospitality journals, in marketing journals, in management journals. So we have to bring it all together. And it's unique in the sense that how it's fragmented amongst the academic journals, that's how the ecosystem really has shaped itself, which for me is so exciting because there's so much potential in how everything is interrelated and interdisciplinary. It really leaves a lot of synergies with administration. And I think this is kind of parents is we have to establish the narrative. And that narrative is it's not just about playing video games. That's a very small amount of what it is. It's about setting up spaces and thinking about the technology requirements and how to establish a team and drive that team to a higher level of performance. And if we can change that narrative, which we're working very hard to do with participating at a state and local level is to really generate awareness. So it's about that awareness building, which is also the same for the academic side. And that's why we're doing things like having opportunities to participate on your show here today to start helping individuals understand just how dynamic and exciting this new emerging area is. All right. So, Petter, what are you teaching in this area? So at the moment, I am not teaching a course related to eSports. I was however part of the team together with Jennifer and Noel who developed this program at Stockton. Okay. And so Jennifer, are you teaching a course related to eSports? I am actually teaching two courses this semester. I'm teaching our introduction to eSports management, which is our base level class for really anybody who's interested in eSports. And I will say that in that class, I have people who, students who are eSports majors, they have a communications major, they are a business major. They are all different kinds of majors in that class. So like Noel was saying, it really draws in a wide variety of people. The other class I teach is a really exciting class called eSports Industry and Events. And I teach that class in partnership with our eSports club here on campus. And we participate in the events that we do either with our students. We have online events. So they really get to see all of the production that goes into events, the camera work, the streaming, the graphics, the postings on Discord, all that kind of stuff. They actually get to see it live and participate in that. So that's a really exciting class that we have. All right. How about you, Noel? So I actually have one class, which I'm sure as you hear, you're going to say, okay, how's that connect? So one is facilities management. So one of the biggest things about eSports, it's really the blending of this digital space with the physical world. So students are learning all about the current trends, the facilities requirements, what it means to manage some of these facilities, and even the impact from a tourism perspective. Another class that I'm currently developing right now is our eSports marketing class. So how do we look at traditional marketing structures and approaches, and then start to add the added layers of what we're finding inside the eSports space, such as sponsorship and the content creators, and that more unique, I'm going to say, entrepreneurship that exists within this space? You know, the facilities management, that's a pretty broad and important course. It would include risk management, and it would include a lot of skills and content that would be important to, that would be transferable to a lot of work in different industries. And I see, you know, when you talk about the intro of eSports class, Jennifer, it reminds me of my undergrad and some really interesting courses that I took at the University of Washington. Those courses are very memorable, even if that's not your major. If you just take an intro to eSports class, 20 years later you'll still be talking about I took an intro to eSports class when I was in undergrad. So I think that that's terrific. So are any of you gamers? So I get to raise my hand for this one. I'm not going to date myself too much, but I will tell you that in high school I actually started, I was in a first shooter competition. So any fellow gamers out there, if you remember the 007 James Bond, I actually won the high school championship in my school district area. So that's my claim to fame. You know, I think there should still be, I think the 007 should still be a really big game. You know, how about you Jennifer and Peter? I am not a gamer currently. I'm learning a lot more from my students. Sometimes I feel like that I'm actually teaching them when it comes to all of these games. My experience, and I will date myself, goes back to playing Pong on Atari. So I'm Peter. Right now my my gaming experience is limited, I guess, to phone games just because I don't really have much time. But when I was growing up, I was, I suppose you can say a gamer, I was playing Starcraft and Counter Strike with pretty big in the early 2000s. And also, which is probably something that most people don't know, but also most people are desperate. That thing exists. Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, as people are working, it's really hard to have time, you know, but it's fun to play some games on your phone, at least while you're waiting in line. So Noelle, how can people get in touch with you and find out more about your program? So I would say the easiest way is if you even just type into any search engine and type in Stockton University, New Jersey, we will come up on our webpage. I'm listed there. My contact information is listed along with my email. You know, we are a very active group of faculty. So we're always looking for new partners, guest speakers, internship opportunities for our students. And we're even looking for to support those that might want to enter into this space, you know, because together we can truly grow it and make it even more dynamic. All right, well, thank you so much, Noelle, Jennifer and Petter. I really appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so much for having us, Catherine. All right. So and thank you to our viewers for joining us today. Join us again in two weeks. My guest will be Amila Patheruna to talk about eSports and Sri Lanka. See you then.