 I will be welcome everyone to the 13th meeting in 2015 of the In want, structure and capital investment committee. Everyone present is reminded to switch off mobile phones as they affect the broadcasting system. As meeting papers are provided in digital format you may see tablets being used in the course of the meeting No apologies are No apologiste'n rydw i'w adael o'r gweithio. Y gynhyrchu a album no 1 o fyddwch chi rydw i'w adael i'w gweithio o'r berthynat i gweithio i gweithgau fyddwch i ddym ni'n ddim yn ei ysgolais gwrth gynnigol Cymru. Can I welcome Neil Galatly, head of transportation at Dundee City Council, councillor Leslie Hinds, convener of transport anvariem �r Udda Coffinatt, a Bruce Keillow, head of policy and planning at Strathlide partnership for transport. Adam Ingram will kick off our questions this morning. Thank you very much, convener. Good morning, everyone. The committee heard evidence at its last meeting that there seems to be little joint working between local authorities, network rail and transport providers, which leads to poor transport integration and, again, limiting the accessibility of major railway stations. Do you share these views and, if so, how might they be addressed? Who wants to kick off? Well, this is a matter that's concerned me since I first became convener of transport environment over three years ago. My concern was particularly regarding the access in and out of the station, but also the situation you've had evidence of regarding the surrounding station. Interestingly, I was just looking back some of my files. It's quite useful to keep files sometimes, but it actually goes back to... I had a briefing in December of 2012 when it was being suggested that we would be taking vehicles out of Waverley station. People know it's particularly Waverley station. We've got a concern about Haymarket. There are some concerns there, but particularly Waverley station. There was a working group set up in March 2009 between Network Rail, the Department of Transport, British Transport Police and the City of Edinburgh Council, and that was looking particularly at the security issues, but also the refurbishment that was coming along with that. And I think one of the frustrations I think the officers and myself feel is that there has been these working groups, there has been the working together, but then the goalposts keep on changing and Network Rail tend to make decisions without going back to that working group. Now, I could just give you the example of the access to the Waverley station. It was just to give an example in terms of the working group was meeting, discussing the issues. One part we were told it was announced in the press that all vehicles were coming out of the station within a few weeks. I had a meeting with Network Rail. They said they would change it. They would put it at taxis, but with control it spent quite a lot of money at the control mechanism. Then there was an accident, an unfortunate death of a pedestrian on Waverley Bridge. And again within a few weeks and the press notice came to us at the same time to say that they were then going to take all vehicles out of the station. So all I'm saying is there are mechanisms and there has been a working between the officers particularly and Network Rail, but it appears that Network Rail make decisions on their own rather than coming and having some consensus and discussion with the council. That's very helpful, but we would like to explore that in more detail in the course of our session. Essentially, we're saying that there is a problem with joint working. Would you agree with that, Mr Keillan? I think there's good and bad. I think you really have to look at the range of roles and responsibilities of the different organisations that can be involved. In a transport project, the example I know will probably come on to it later on is Glasgow Queen Street for us, which is one of Scotland's major rail stations, and the number of partners that are involved, not just in terms of the station, but also the surrounding developments around Queen Street, which are happening all at the one time. You've got Buchanan Galleries redevelopment, you've got SPT doing the Buchanan Street subway station refurb, you've got the station going on, you've got various other things going on. So there can be quite a range of different organisations. From our point of view, we've tried to lead the way in that the Queen Street development in terms of ensuring that planning, programming and the delivery of the end product are all coordinated. We've done that through the Queen Street passenger forum, as we call it, which has got all those bodies plus organisations like Transport Focus and the Glasgow Access panel on it now because there were a whole range of concerns about how those things would dovetail together. So that to us is a positive step forward, but our experience previously has been that delivering major projects on the rail network can be challenging and can take time. We did one over the last few years, we're part of a group who did Dunmarnock Station in the east end of Glasgow for regeneration purposes and for the Commonwealth Games. One of the most important things that we thought to get right at the very beginning of that was to think through who had ownership of the project, who was going to be involved, make that clear from the outset and I think that that did well for that project. So I think there can be good and bad, I think the important thing is to get who your stakeholders are, who your clients are going to be, make sure the right people are round the table, the right officers or elected members round the table and make sure that there's a clear commitment to do things in a joint working manner. So are you suggesting it's the role of the regional transport authority to do this? I would say it depends on the scale of the project. I think from the Queen Street point of view, which is the live one that we're involved in at the moment, when we saw what else was happening, I suppose just to take a step back, we were always particularly concerned in how this would impact on the customer, the passenger, whatever you would want to call it, so that they had minimum fuss, minimum disruption to their travel patterns and I think that's why when we had discussions with Transport Scotland, Network Rail and others, we said, listen, we need to make sure that we're all coordinated in this. We don't want us doing something in the subway, major work at the same time as you're doing something on Queen Street Station or Buchanan Galleries or doing something. We want to make sure that we can, as best as we can, try and coordinate that. So there is a role, most certainly, for an organisation like SPT, but I think it would really depend on the scale of the project. OK, Mr Gallardy, where do you want to come in? Thank you. Yes, it's a very challenging interface. You enter when you're undertaking station redevelopment or refurbishment, and it plays such a major role in your city's function that the City Council in Dundee has taken a lead role almost in creating a new station facility in Dundee. We've probably spent the best part of a decade, 15 years, working with the rail industry, operating and infrastructure side of it to seek a new and better facility because we are lobbied regularly by local council, colleagues in local councils round about, our access forums, public transport users to improve the facilities. As I mentioned in my statement, they were deemed fit for purpose so we would not prioritise investment. So we've had to take a lead in terms of design, architect appointments, and it also very fortuitously has land right in a major regeneration process in the city of Dundee that is led by the department I work for called the City Development Department. So that brings in land use planning, transport planning, engineering and other design parts of urban design. So yes, it does present challenges, but we're used to working in multi-agency groups and on this occasion the City of Dundee decided that that was a priority for our city and we've taken a lead. I don't necessarily say it's difficult to show how a priority in a city is a priority for the national rail infrastructure company. That's a challenge to sit alongside other national priorities. But we have received technical assistance but we do pay for that. It's not given free. We pay for that sort of service as we move forward. We pay for the engineering and technical support we get from the rail industry as we move forward. So the kind of problems that Councillor Hines was outlining with regards to Edinburgh with Network Rail, your relationship with Network Rail, how did you sort that? A lot of hard work with senior officer time building relationships and of course the danger is some individuals move on and you start again. The time process is building up an understanding, going through official appraisal processes and an investment a lot of time and a lot of money with specialist support. I mean, as a local government officer I don't necessarily have the skills to deal with the rail industry specialisms and I'm reliant on their advice but you have to engage the right advisors and experts to make sure that you are pushing forward with the right project because otherwise you could waste a lot of time and money going down the wrong track. OK. Do you think there is a role here for Transport Scotland to actually set down a protocol or a methodology and to facilitate joint working given that Transport Scotland are the main funders of both ScotRail and Network Rail Scotland? I think, again, as I said earlier, I think it really depends on the scale of the project. I know, for example, and I think it's most certainly a positive step forward as the new Network Rail, ScotRail joint alliance which has come about as part of the new franchise and we'll wait and see how that works but I think that's most certainly a positive step forward for organisations like councils who are looking to engage with the rail industry. Perhaps they get a single point of contact. I think there is most certainly a role for Transport Scotland in ensuring co-ordination at national level where it's a significant scale project. We do that for projects which you could describe as regional scale. You'll be aware perhaps of the fast link bus system which we are putting in Glasgow just launched to the New South Glasgow hospital and that was us working with Glasgow City Council and that worked on a Transport Scotland. We weren't too involved in that although they were obviously funding it. So I think that there is most certainly a role for Transport Scotland on national scale projects and on others it would be an organisation like SPT or indeed a council who could perhaps take the lead in co-ordinating that. I think, again, it really depends on the project. There are many transport projects that are so different. Formalising it may actually create more bureaucracy and more difficulty. I think it has to be looked at a project level scale but perhaps it would be good to have some sort of formal commitment for many organisations like Network Rail, ScotRail ourselves, councils, whoever at the beginnings of projects to say yes we will engage with you. We will set up a project steering group. We're committed to sharing information. That's sometimes a difficulty if the organisation is a commercial organisation but that's something that I think is, as I said earlier, in the passengers' interests to make sure things are co-ordinated through the planning, development and delivery process. OK, but the... Sorry, Councillor Heinz... I was going to say this as well is that while I agree that each project is quite different there's come small projects and some very large projects and how do you do a protocol for that and who should take the lead? I mean, I think we were working well together and I think it's more about the decision making process as well and about Network Rail. What is their decision making process? And you can have all the working groups you like and all the good relationships you like but if then the Network Rail decide well that's what we're going to do and then the effects has on you as a local authority and on the passengers. That's a difficulty and I think one of the hopefully questions you might want to ask is the power of Network Rail and governance and responsibility decision making process. And one of the other issues as well which we will come up later on is also about permitted planning development rights as well. You know, where we don't have a situation where we can ask for example for Section 75 to help but also they can do their hike almost under the planning legislation and I think that as a challenge we've got that challenge out of the airport as well. So I think it's another issue that I'm not sure if the other authorities find that as well but that might be something else to look at. But in summary I think you need to look each project and the large projects we need to have some protocol but the decision making process of Network Rail and how they make decisions I think has to be done in partnership and it really isn't, they ultimately make the decision and we can influence them all we like but they make the decision. Well would you like to answer your own question about what you do about Network Rail then? Well I think you need to look at the, maybe it's at the, I don't know, Government level to have discussions with Network Rail and presumably with Westminster, Scottish Parliament Government to look at where the responsibilities lie because I don't know about you but I'm quite confused about exactly, I know they've changed recently but where the decision making lie, does it lie here in Scotland, does it lie in Westminster, does it lie at a local level because when I wrote to Network Rail following our meeting with that with users etc, I then just got a letter back saying well get in touch with your Scottish person, well we'd done that and we'd had the meetings so it's the kind of perhaps just clarifying exactly Network Rail's governance and responsibility because at the end of the Network Rail is publicly owned. Okay, anything to add Mr Galatly? I would just say that Rail is such a significant form of transport it certainly is not a local transport form, it's local and at the very least a regional transport form and I think Transport Scotland and the regional transport partnerships as well as the local government at a local authority level need that support possibly from Transport Scotland in terms of certainly a guidance at the very outset of a major project inception to make sure that we don't, that we do follow the correct routes and that really would be a helping hand to assist us and support us not all authorities have the engineering or design or consultancy skills or volume of staff to handle this sort of project and I think that guidance would help, it would help the decision makers as well locally decide this really is a priority, how do we push for this I think Councillor Hynne has touched on it, who do you push to for additional support beyond your own local wishes because it does fit in with a national and a regional agenda as well as what's happening in your local urban area So would both of the gentlemen here would you agree that there is an issue with regards to network rail and the decision making process? Yes I think there is and I think it's probably just echoing what Councillor Hynne said I think it's a lot to do with transparency on this SPT like Neil and Dundee we are democratically accountable organisations we report to our partnership board every decision of a major scale which we make is reported and is available publicly on our website and members of the public are welcome to come along to our board Meetings I think it's perhaps there is a level of confusion over the transparency of network rail in terms of their governance arrangements I'm not sure particularly that too many people are aware that they are controlled at UK level and even though it's Network Rail Scotland having said all that I think there is issues to do with the legislation that's in place for example at Queen Street Station Network Rail were taking forward the Queen Street redevelopment through the transport and works process which meant that there was what they call the red line round the station and that was really where they were restricted to looking at their development within that red line round the station obviously our concern is how that integrates with the rest of the transport network the bus stops which are three, four yards outside that red line what happens there, pick up, drop off, blue badge parking all those sort of things integration with the cycle network there's all cycle hubs and stuff like that planned for the new station so whether they're a victim of that as well that perhaps needs looked at but I'm aware the transport minister has said as part of the national transport strategy refresh he will be looking at roles and responsibilities of the various organisations so perhaps there's an opportunity to clarify some of the decision making processes and governance arrangements with Network Rail and their roles and responsibilities through that process that's perhaps something to consider Can I also say that there is a great opportunity during 2015 with this new deep alliance between Network Rail and the Bellio ScotRail we're really looking forward to working with the Bellio they've got some great vision in their franchise offer that they wish to bring forward over and above the straight running of the trains and I would like to see that develop over the next three to six months as they establish their new way of working and I think that they have already indicated that working more closely with Network Rail is key to giving us a successful rail-based public transport system so just wanted to relate that operator side is so important to Network Rail that the majority of the stations are actually managed by ScotRail as opposed to Network Rail in Scotland I think the committee will very much want to explore with Network Rail when we have them before the committee the issues that you, Councilor Heinz and Mr Keelow have highlighted this morning in terms of the lack of transparency around the governance arrangements and decision making processes that Network Rail adhere to but I wonder if I could just explore with Councilor Heinz the specific issues around Waverley station you say in your evidence, you've written evidence to the committee that both Haymarket and Waverley being the subject of major improvement providing additional capacity in passenger facilities but the recent improvements did not address wider accessibility issues and that's certainly something that has been echoed by the evidence we've received from other stakeholders so that the oral evidence we've received from Sustran, Cycling Scotland Scottish Taxi Federation and CPT indicated that Network Rail did not consult on the closure of the vehicle access ramps before deciding to do so Just for the record, can I ask you what level of consultation and discussion there was between Network Rail and the City of Edinburgh Council prior to that decision to close the vehicle access ramps on Waverley bridge was? If we go back, because I think it's quite important because it was originally when the refurbishment but it was also linked to the issue of security and particularly coming from Westminster Government in terms of security and also linked to Glasgow Airport etc so there was these mechanisms to be put in and some of that went alongside their refurbishment and the discussion that the officers had was their concern about access and vehicle access because anyone who knew what it was like before is you could go in in a vehicle, you could drop off, you could pick up and you could get a taxi there and that also for people with disabilities for people who were needing support and help could do that They then decided, and I'm not sure exactly the dates but they decided at one time to then say all vehicles were to come out and the council and myself lobbied Network Rail to say we thought this was not the right way to go just to make that decision, take all the vehicles out and what the consequence would be for the passengers but also the consequence of the surrounding area surrounding Waverley but as has been said by Bruce is one of the issues the constraints they have is this red line that appears to be round I think it's maybe something you might want to do further so we lobbied them and they then decided we had a meeting down in Waverley station and they decided they would agree to have access for taxis who were registered and also access for people like handicaps etc to be able to get access and they spent quite a lot of money, I think they're almost half a million to put in barriers and a control mechanism which appeared to continue to break down as well I have to say and that's what happened so we weren't particularly happy but we did a consultation, the taxi trade etc so they weren't particularly happy either because you needed to pay to get access in but at least it was giving the passenger an opportunity to be able to get a taxi service in the station consultation between the city member there was a consultation in terms of they decided they would take everything out all vehicles out, everything including taxis and because we lobbied them they then decided to be fed to them they then decided to have a controlled taxi mechanism and for people with disabilities in terms you'd have to register like handicaps etc you'd have to register and that kind of didn't work because as I say the barriers kept on not working and there was a bit of a problem with that and then when there was the fatality just outside the station I think a few weeks after that we got the press release at the same time they announced they were closing I think the next week or the week after so there was no consultation at all with us in terms of taking all taxis out of the station OK, that's the clarification I was seeking so thank you very much for that so the city member council learns about the decision to remove vehicles from the station at the same time as the press and the reasons that were given by Network Rail for the closure of the vehicle access ramps you alluded to the issue around security did they actually write subsequent to that decision being announced to the press to explain what their reasons were? Not as far as I'm aware not to me anyway and I think I've had at least three meetings with them and also met them down on site as well on a couple of occasions so I don't remember getting anything from them following on from that they'd made that decision and they implemented that decision and at the meetings what was the explanation from Network Rail as to why they'd closed the vehicle access ramps? Previously, we've not had any other meetings with them following that there's been more officers because to be honest I felt as if I was going to meetings we'd get agreement, we'd go away and then it wouldn't be implemented and one of the frustrations as well as we'd sit at the meetings we'd agree a certain process and say we're agreeing to this access we're agreeing to better signage better advertising on websites etc and we're agreeing all of that and I think on two occasions we agreed all of that and we said we'd put out joint press release to let the public know the action we're taking together and on two occasions we couldn't get agreement from Network Rail to put the press release out so it was kind of frustrating from us we went to meetings we'd seem to get agreement we'd go away and then that agreement then didn't kind of happen some of the things did happen for example signposting within the station has improved, I don't think it's still good enough but it has improved so some of the things did happen but it wasn't followed through and as a public body funded by the taxpayer does it concern you that Network Rail are behaving in that way? Yes, I think as I said to the previous answer I think my concern is is the accountability and that if we're working in partnership and we've peered to get agreement around the table all way forward and particularly when all taxis were taken out of the station the consequences for the surrounding areas but also for passengers where do you get pick up a taxi where do you access them we had to then deal with over a very short period of time in that kind of emergency situation So one of the concerns that the council has presumably is that decisions are being taken by Network Rail that you haven't been consulted on but you're having to then live with the consequences of those decisions in terms of having to alleviate the impact of them on passengers Yes, and particularly on Waverley Bridge and on Market Street we did have plans along with working with Network Rail to put improvements which we spent around a million pounds on improvements and they're just about finishing there's still bits and pieces to be done and one of the things we've also had to do because the consequences of all taxis coming out is to change the taxi rank in Market Street we're about to change that and we're about to lose income in terms of high parking chargers that are in that area and are well used and we're having to put the taxi rank out there and that's a loss of income to us as a council because we want to try to provide the best service possible so as consequences of their decision of taking taxis out we've had to then readjust our taxi stances in Market Street and also look at Colton Road as well and whether we can improve it there and then there's also add-on difficulties outside you know out at Princess Street as well where you've got double taxis parking and all those kind of problems so all the vehicles it was like well we'll take all the taxis out and it's your problem and no kind of consequences of what that would mean for us Are there any other measures that the council have had to take to alleviate the consequences of closing the vehicle access ramps that you haven't mentioned so far? Well the other issues obviously to do with access and I don't know if you want to talk about the ramps etc but it seems to me pretty ludicrous we've got two ramps a north and a south ramp where you've got a narrow entrance in both ramps with this large bit of road that is never ever used apart from delivery vehicles and it always seems peculiar to me and to people out the outside world that somehow about security that delivery vehicles can go into the station and is that not a security risk but taxis can't who are all checked out so that we've got two ramps access in which is the main access in from Waverley Bridge which has got a very narrow you'll see the photographs in the submission there's a very narrow place for people to pedestrians, buggies and cyclists who have to sit to mount and then push their bikes down that and you can imagine the kind of consequences of that so you've got the north ramp and then at the bottom of the north ramp it's pretty tacky looking sort of I don't know what you call fencing so we've spent millions of pounds upgrading Waverley Station and you've got this temporary pretty crappy looking thing at the bottom within your station and what we were trying to encourage Network Rail to do and with the station person charged with station was to say well even if you were to have the delivery access on one of the ramps but to open up the other ramp for pedestrians and cyclists that would at least be a more welcoming I mean we're talking about millions of people who use the station in terms of pedestrian cyclists coming in and out and people using public transport and also it's visited to the city and we have made improvements in Waverley Bridge which makes it easy for pedestrians and for public transport and on Market Street and those are the consequences of that but I really would hope for you might give them some pressure when they come next week I think to say about those ramps it's just ludicrous that we now have that Just on the ramps and we've obviously heard evidence from a range of stakeholders and one of the suggestions was that the vehicle access ramp be reopened for cyclists and that we increase the space available for pedestrians on the ramps is that something that you would support One of the issues to be fair to Network Rail as well and Waverley they've looked at is having all the deliveries coming into Colton Road and I think that would be one of the developments I'm not sure what timescale that is but we would prefer there was no deliveries at all if you're going to take all vehicles out why do you not take delivery vehicles out as well and they could go down to Colton Road and all deliveries could go in there and therefore you'd be able to open up both ramps which could be accessible for pedestrians and cyclists and perhaps you could make one of them cyclists to access only and could you do that at the same time as creating a taxi rank on Colton Road as you'd mentioned previously Yes there is one there at the moment which is in a temporary basis but one of the issues is that most people don't know it's there and that's one of the other issues that we've discussed with Network Rail and with the station how do you publicise it, how do you promote where the taxis are I know my daughter Liz in Glasgow and when I'm dropping her off to the station I actually lose the Colton Road entrance because it's in exit because it's a really good place to drop off but I think we need to publicise we need to promote and we've certainly put new signage up in the surrounding area to let people know and for example there is and most people don't know this as well and it's about how you promote it you can go into the station car park and you can have half an hour free parking which will take you right up through the new street car park and you can actually have that but most people don't know that's available as well say you've got an elderly parent who's off and is happy to go up on the lift but most of that isn't publicised and that's one of the things we keep saying to Network Rail but also to Waverly station how do you promote all of the exits all of the entrances to it rather than just Market Street or rather just Waverly but Colton Road I think with the development of St James's Quarter as well there's an opportunity to enhance that area linking down into Leith OK, thank you David you have some questions Thank you, convener Cynllian she probably watched evidence that we took last week about this very same subject what certain I was picking up was a slightly different version of events about the reasons for banning vehicles going into Waverly and particularly for the taxis to be removed and that was that Network Rail received security advice that stations that were effectively underground should have taxis removed and apart from deliveries should be removing cars and obviously in the Parliament we're fairly used to security advice first of all you won't get the detail but it's reasonable to know that advice was given and that would normally come from Police Scotland security services and the sort of national centre for infrastructure which gives advice to public bodies if that was true that would put a different version of events in other words Network Rail were merely following security advice they may not tell you that but I can understand that's a version of events does that struck a chord with you at all? Yeah I mean it does I just said a thing previously it was security but also refurbishment happened at the same time and yes that was the reason and to be fair again to Network Rail when the discussions we had with them they were saying this is advice we've been giving and some of the things like at Colton Road where you've got steps there there's the large huge ballers that are there and that's part of the security so yes to be fair to them and that their advice was being given was about security but also at the same time was a refurbishment of the station at the same time Having said that I mean obviously we will have evidence session with them when we can put these points of facility to them I would have thought if they had been given security advice even though they might not reveal the detail to you they might well say as a public body well we've had security advice we have to do it because of this presumably you would have understood that and it would make the decision making a little bit easier but at no time did they ever make that clear to you well they did make it clear that the security advice they would have been given was that their advice was that they should be considering the issue of having vehicles as I understand under anything under the station but I suppose my question is if that security means taxis and vehicles why do we still have delivery vehicles that come into the station and I think the public would then question that and you're right that you know if they've been given security advice and that to be fair to them was what they said to us they said you know is security advice were being given but I think the difficulty was if the security advice was taken all vehicles out and they haven't and then they said well we'll put taxis in well my question is why did they say take all vehicles out then they said we'll only put taxis in and then they took all vehicles out so it hasn't been very consistent and obviously it's been more difficult for passengers I suppose particularly passengers who use Queen Street have taxis adjacent to the station which is very convenient and we've taken evidence as you know from passengers that have psych difficulties physical difficulties it is much more difficult when you arrive at the station now to access taxis and you mentioned yourself there's issues of signage can I just take you on to the issue around Calton Road which the convener has cruelly taken my question but nevertheless the issue around Calton Road is an interesting one what is the council's position on the creation of a taxi at Calton Road? I understand this we depend on remodeling the junction at Leith Street I mean do you have a council policy around the creation of a taxi at this area and the knock-on effect for road redesigning? We would like to look at the taxi rank in Colton Road and I had discussions with the taxi trade with the officers about Market Street Waverley Station Waverley Bridge sorry and Colton Road but part of the difficulty is taxi drivers and taxi owners are not that keen on the Colton Road because they feel it's not a well used one and because the signage within the station you wouldn't be encouraged to go there but I think with better signage etc then there would be more people who perhaps are wanting to go a certain distance and also if you're then going to Leith Street it's going to be developed as part of St James's quarter there seems to be an opportunity there and if you've travelled up that part of Leith Street for a pedestrian it's pretty appalling you've got very very narrow narrow pavements but what we did put in we put in a funding bid into the stations fund to improve that whole area in terms of taxis, pedestrians, cyclists and access to that but unfortunately we were unsuccessful in getting funding that would be kind of match funding but we were looking for funding for station improvement and I don't know if that's something you might want to talk about as well because there's 30 odd million sitting and some of it's been used but a lot of it hasn't and we weren't successful but yes I would welcome the opportunity and we obviously depend on resources but we would look to put some of our resources in if we could get some match funding and some help and support to improve it for a taxi rank at the Colton Road end That's good here and it's good you're mentioning as well you would want facilities for cyclists because I think that's crucially important but presumably if the signage was changed so that it was clear that there was going to be a drop-off point there within the station taxi drivers would be keener to use that facility You'd think so but the discussions that I had with was that Tony came here last week and one of the issues I've had discussions with him and it's persuading people that you've got the footfall and you would have the demand for it and it's kind of chicken and egg until you've got the taxis there and you're going to come and use it and it's trying to persuade the taxi driver to have a better signage because it would make sense depending on where you come into the station it would actually be quicker to go out there and get a taxi but then it depends on where you're going because of the issue of Leith Street and you can only turn left at the end of Colton Road you can't turn right down to Leith so there's a bit of complication there but as I say it's an opportunity I would have thought with the St James' quarter that improvements into Colton Road for all of those the passengers would be an opportunity You mentioned the issue of funding you were disappointed that the councils turned down for funding what improvements would you like to see in the funding that's available for local authorities to do improvements like the ones you mentioned Well the station fund is still not all allocated as I understand it and you might want to question who makes those decisions as well because as I understand that it's Scottish Government funding but it's used to a mechanism with Network Rail and it's Network Rail Transport Scotland and the train operators who make that decision and one of the I suppose the constraints they have as I understand it is that red line thing again in terms it's supposed to be for station users and for rail users now if you look at some of the statistics we sent in a written evidence in the Halcro study we did it shows a large percentage of people who are in Waverley bridge in Market Street and Colton Road are using the station and also particularly we were looking for improvements at the top of the Waverley escalator and for people waiting for buses and the links to buses if anyone stood there it's not the best experience that was part of our bid to improve that facility so you'd have a good interchange between coming out of station escalators and the buses and also tram as well so you'd have that kind of good combination so I would quite like to question and I have questioned the decision making of that because we were told we couldn't be successful for funding even though in my view it was a good application for improvement for rail users because it wasn't exclusively rail users then we couldn't then get that funding and I think that is a real frustration I mean I met as I'm sure all the members did the Scottish Head and Network Rail and certainly you mentioned these ring fence funds that were available it seems to be back if you're inside the red line or outside it but it seems a very strange argument that a taxi rank next to a major Scottish station is not going to be exclusively used by rail passengers and so will the issue about integration between other modes of transport but I suspect that will take me on to another theme but thank you for your questions and I'll put you back to the convener thank you Council Hines would you be able to ask your officials to share some information with the committee on the bid to the station fund Do you want that now or do you want that? If you want to place any further comments on the record I'm happy for you to do that now but equally happy for your officials to write to the committee We can send you the full detail of the submission that we put in and we were success there is some funding for example for cycle racks and that's again in Haymarket where the design of Haymarket was a permitted planning development and again the surrounding area of Haymarket where if anyone's tried to park your bike there it's almost impossible now we have got funding but that's after it's been refurbished and it seems to me why did we not think about that and put it at the same time but the stations fund as I understand it's still under spent and it needs to be looked at and if it's Scottish Government funding then surely as elected members you should be asking the Scottish Government why is it that we cannot spend out with the railway stations when it's the benefit for rail users and I really do question that and I'm happy to send all the detailed information it was an application for Haymarket they've considered that we could they may well fund the bridge that would take you over to Dalrai Road but it would cost us as a council nearly 200,000 just to build that up into the design and designing costs etc and the difficulty with that is you don't want to spend that money successful and again that's maybe something you might want to say about the Scottish stations fund and I'm not sure if you would agree with that as well that if there was even some money there to let local authorities build up design work to build it up so they could then put in an application with more detailed designs that would be helpful as well for some some of money which happens in some funds you know almost it you get like a bit like a lottery you get some money to help you up to a certain stage it would be useful if we could look at that because the stations fund is there sitting there with money and we in Edinburgh would like to make more improvements particularly in Coulton Road Haymarket and at Waverley you know at the marketplace where the buses are and our bid was unsuccessful and if we could re-submit it and be more successful I would welcome that from the committee if they could influence that David? Just an observation around the question I think that's a very good point my memory starts to be correct we apply to we would have funding for applications and on a much larger scale it's probably not a very good analogy on the fourth crossing applications that the unsuccessful consortia I think we see £5 million as unsuccessful bid or premium so there is a sort of track record where that there is facilities and various other grants that you can make an application even though you're unsuccessful and get funding for that so I think that's a very good point The gentleman have comment on the station fund specifically In former public transport fund days when the former Scottish Executive there was a preparation fund for public transport major projects to allow you to do the scale of the project the council of 100 kinds refers to say £200,000, £300,000 so that you could get the technical advice with partners to put in a signed bid to take away an element of risk in that sort of pump prime seed corn type funding I also wanted to mention as well that the development control side is very interesting stations with permitted development almost allowing them to do what they need to do normally if you were to reconfigure a road layouts say Calton Road or Leith Street they're talking about here that would be incorporating the transport statement or a transport assessment with a planning application so you do lose that element of city to real station planning gain so that is a very valid point the entity beyond the doors of the station is the cities or the local authorities responsibility and that can be costly or make for a very ugly interface between shiny brand new and what's left behind Thank you. Just to echo some of the points that have been made I think it's probably important to remember that rail users will be bus users will be taxi users will often be cycle users people aren't dedicated to one mode and I think that when the general public see that organisations like ourselves are within the industry can't get integration right they do quite rightly in my view question that and I think that's the kind of view that we take as a regional transport authority with multimodal responsibilities we do try to look across the board example at Queen Street where we have had concerns about the cycling we have had concerns about pickup drop-off taxis, blue badge parking the interstation bus between Glasgow Central Queen Street and others and I think it is important to remember the integration point of view in terms of the Scottish stations fund absolutely I think it's there's challenges in funding what can be quite eye watering amounts of money to get projects to through feasibility stages et cetera and that can be a challenge for organisations whether it's local authorities or others to try and pull that money together I think there's probably opportunities for looking at that I think the one thing is that the challenges organisations is looking we need to follow what they call the Scottish Transport Appraisal Guidance process the STAG process by Transport Scotland and that's something again that does cost money to do is an organisation have funded works like that before feasibility development work it can be expensive but the main thing for us is you get the right answer at the end of it and you're not spending significant amounts of money going down one route only to be told later on that you didn't follow the STAG process for example and so it perhaps would get thrown out so I think that's something that again perhaps clarification is required and again if any other funding is available for that then it would most certainly be welcomed convener thank you convener I just want to go back to the waiver list situation that David Stewart was talking about because the alternative hypothesis that I'd heard and perhaps it's only a rumour is that one of the reasons at least for moving the taxis out of the station was to do with air quality and that may or may not be the case I'd be interested to hear from Councillor Hines if that was mentioned as one of the reasons but going beyond that though it strikes me that you know there are several issues actually wrapped up in this we could argue about the decisions that Network Rail have taken or not taken or argue about the lack of consultation and then we could talk about the time when they informed you Edinburgh City Council about the fact that they were taking those design decisions and how early on in the process they did inform you that would enable you to do the ancillary work that was within your jurisdiction because I think that if I'm effective of this red line and I can accept the concept that beyond the red line they may have no jurisdiction what I'm struggling to accept is that they can't think beyond the red line and consult beyond the red line to allow you to do ancillary work that complements what they're doing and then in terms of the construction sequence of any works to be able to minimise the overall impact of construction and the main station work and the ancillary work so would you like to maybe just comment and perhaps clarify the situation with regard to these issues that I've touched on? OK, I mean as I said right at the beginning there was a project group so within that project group within the council and council officials and particularly the ones that are on the ground in terms of planning and delivering Waverley Bridge etc that working group that met to discuss how we could make sure that what we did out with that red line and what they did within the red line was that was that liaison there so that liaison was there then was because of delays in the project as well in Waverley Station which was delayed and also trying to as an authority fit in and do those changes in Waverley Bridge and Market Street in terms of finding a time that you could slot in those improvements as well it's quite complex because you've got the festival where you can't do anything I hate to mention it but since I'm in the transport meeting Tram as well and the consequences of that and the disruption over a number of years so that should be able to facilitate making the changes in Waverley Bridge and in Market Street in particular was trying to find the funding for that because there was an indication given as part of security funding many years back when that was first discussed with security there may well have been money available and that was a discussion at the informal work project groups there may will be funding available that would be allowed to be used with match funding as we do all over the city in terms of projects that you will get developers and the council and with planning in particular but also they will work with you so there was all of that discussion and then there was then no money forthcoming so I don't know if that's answering your question or not but there was that liaison but because I think they saw themselves as being within there and we saw ourselves as being out there how do we make that situation better I don't have an answer for that but I think that liaison just didn't work properly and you could say there's faults on both sides does that answer you or not? I'm struggling to process all the information that you've given me my colleagues will confirm that my brain doesn't always work as fast as I would like it to work did they or did they not consult you or inform you of their intentions design intentions early enough in the process for you to be able to then design the complementary work that you're responsible for and fit that into the process that was part of that project group working together with what they were proposing and obviously some of the things they were proposing would have an effect in terms of temporary ramps to go in to facilitate the work etc so therefore there was that liaison but the difficulty was that that changed in terms of the security issues and that changed and then decisions seemed to change and so on you asked about the air quality yes that is one of the issues that they believed was the issue about air quality and that was why they wanted to have vehicles as you're probably aware you could come in and out so air quality was another issue but security was the one that they basically did kind of change the situation the situation kept changing I think that's a yes actually thank you very much and if I could just move on just a wee bit of clarification on the permitted development rights am I correct and it's perhaps a maybe a question for Mr Gillatley am I correct in my understanding of this is that Network Rail have permitted development rights and that therefore does not exempt same from the normal planning application at which ancillary matters would be considered by the local planning authority or am I misunderstanding this I do but I understand for Waverly there was one permission they had to get I think which was the roof and because of the height of the roof etc so I think they had to get that but for everything else you're probably more of an expert than I am I'm more of a transport professional and land use planning but I think it seems to be more on heritage conservation issues that the rail industry has to consult with planning authorities rather than run of the mill in this office into a an information centre so there is a limited amount of integration with the planning system as compared to an ordinary development am I correct therefore in suggesting then that if they didn't have this permitted development right they would then be forced to consult make a full planning application in the course of which transport and all the ancillary arrangements and so on and all the implications of the overall development could be fully and properly considered and that the permitted development rights actively mitigate against that process taking place am I correct? Yes I think they were building a brand new station that was a new it would be a different matter of course we would be going through a very detailed process with them as we would need a new retail or education or commercial development but when it's refurbishing and redeveloping existing facility there's a much more limited interaction with the planning system and that's we were touching on the point that beyond the red line that I've seen referred to and mentioned today is the problem ordinarily we would be expecting public realm improvements around the station or a new bus shelter simple as that that sort of thing quite often is not considered we are only investing within the rail grounds over to you public authority to deal with the issues beyond that And could you just briefly tell me is that a result of changes in the planning system is this a new or is it something that's always been there within the planning system? Limitations of my planning knowledge but I would say nothing has changed in my working life Thank you It's also the same at the Edinburgh airport as well there's certain parts that basically they don't have to go through the same process in terms of planning permission they've got permitted rights but I know the airport because we've had issues about access to the airport in the past and the railway station and ports are the same as well they have similar rights That's actually very helpful and finally just moving on to Haymarket the committee have heard a number of concerns about narrow pavements, poor location of taxi ranks and I appreciate councillor hands that you've talked about this before limited cycle parking the danger from tram lines and I appreciate that issue maybe sub-judice so you may not be able to say much about the specifics of that but are the council doing what it can or is it doing nothing to address the concerns and improve walking and cycling infrastructure in that area and again maybe you could just clarify it explain why these improvements weren't made as part of the tram project Well there obviously there was again lines for the tram project so there was improvements in terms of integration between the tram bus and rail at Haymarket the issue regarding bike racks in the Haymarket station we've applied for funding and been successful in funding so there will be masses of extra bike racks going in there but the question is why wasn't that done at the place and I don't mean to come but if we go back to the same issues waverly is they had permitted racks as well and therefore the issues surrounding the station at Haymarket then were similar to Waverly the ones that we're taking is that we are looking at say the bike racks and improvements there we're looking at the issue of trade waste where we've got a particular problem if you look at some of the photographs that were sent round we were taking trade waste off the streets and that's part of our programme that we're rolling out throughout the city we've had some pilot projects in Haymarket because I say if you look at some of the photographs about street clutter, trade waste large trade waste bins so getting them off so we are taking action in terms of that we also are looking at a study which we're spending a large resource on about the link between Roseburn and through the city centre and we are looking at that links particularly for cycle routes from Lease all the way through the city centre and out to Roseburn and that's what we're looking for in terms of a segregated cycling and cycling routes all through the city centre so that is part of that and the issue of widening of pavements there's some restrictions in terms of that but improvements was part of the bid that we put in for the stations fund and I'd love if we had the money and we have increased our money in terms of roads and pavements in the city and we've prioritised particularly Waverly bridge and market street but we'd like to look at improvements and we have plans that we put in part the station fund to improve round Haymarket as well and also the bridge link that we take you over to Dalrai as well which would be helpful for pedestrians and for cyclists because the growth and passenger numbers at Haymarket is just going to grow and grow and grow because it is popular because it does have a link in terms of taxis, cycles, walking rail, tram all of that so yes, it's on our list to be able to do once we've got funding and we do have plans for that just one bit of slight clarification though I'm still not quite sure as to why these things weren't done at a much earlier date and I appreciate you're doing a lot now and that's terrific but why weren't they done at an earlier date but because of resources and because of money and perhaps if we didn't have for missile development then that would have been part of the planning application for Haymarket for section 75 I was looking for more resources to be able to spend Thank you very much, I've been very helpful and it's back to the convener I've exhausted my questions A few of your earlier comment about your brain, I'm not qualified to comment on that but I think you were being unduly modest given the quality of your questions Mr Mackenzie, we'll move on to Alec Johnson Thank you very much, convener I wanted to go on to the subject of Dundee station and with the waterfront development a unique opportunity at surface level at least to start with a blank slate many respondents however have asked that in relation to bus services they wanted them to call directly at the railway station now your written submission mentions in a quote a bus hub a troll from the station can you explain how you intend to operate that and how it could be improved Bus operations in the city of Dundee are almost exclusively commercially operated by the bus companies, they follow the routes where the passengers wish to go we have a small amount of public subsidy goes into socially necessary services but the majority are provided by Nash Express Dundee and Stagecoach Limited companies The waterfront is just appearing now the streetscape is now appearing in the central area of Dundee and the attractions will be built over the coming years offices, shops the V&A museum and a series of attractions and we would expect bus services to start to migrate into that central waterfront area however at this moment in time the city centre public transport hub is described as a short stroll across the market gate into what's called Whitehall Street Crichton Street and Union Street where almost all bus services in the city and the services going beyond the city call and that is a signed and safe walking route and that we put in a lot of money through public transport fund over the past decade to make that an attractive environment so bus services will not be directly operating at the station from the day it's opened unless there's a major change in bus policy by the operators there will be some services passing through but ordinarily we would expect passengers to walk across to the bus hub in the existing city centre and we will have travel information in the rail station telling people when and where their buses are departing from and additional on-street signage to find their route there so that is our strategy currently or on the previous system it was a short walk but it was often a complicated walk with a lot of pedestrian crossings responding to their survey or pedestrian cycle links between the railway station and the city centre is there anything to be done to improve that? Yes we have designed in the walking routes from the outset so what you see emerging now will be an almost direct walking route of course there's buildings in the way and you have decision points where you're unsure am I turning left going straight and we're going to ensure that there is an on-street static sign telling you a map right left for bus stops to shops to ensure pedestrians are reassured of their route and including on that a street map of the surrounding area so we have got a plan we undertook an audit it was a geographic information system which looked at decision points and we've mapped out about 40 to 50 positions in the Dundee city centre where on-street information will keep you on the right track at your destination You indicated in your written evidence that there's currently no provision being made to upgrade the rail side platform in waiting areas at the station can you tell us why this is the case and whether such an improvement is likely to come forward in the near future? We're very keen to see the track side that the platforms improved at this moment Network Rail are unable to prioritise their funding to that station level enhancements so our strategy has been to create a very nice and welcoming interchange at street level with all the facilities you would need when you arrive at the station shops, retail cafes travel information and you'll then travel down by escalator or elevator to the platform so that you can remain in a nice pleasant environment until you have to travel on the train We are encouraging Abellio the new East Coast Operator Virgin we're also encouraging the new Sleeper Operator to invest an element of their stations improvements in Dundee as we move forward We have asked Network Rail to consider this they are unable to at this moment they feel the station was refurbished approximately 10 years ago in terms of re-glazing of the roof painting and CCTV but it won't receive the full gloss effect that we'll have up at street level the main station buildings will be Basically, while there is perhaps limitations to what's available at platform level there's going to be significant improvements in what's available at the upper level Yes, there will be an interface as opposed to as described in Edinburgh interface will be a nice street level facility with a fairly ordinary at track side level It'll be usable, safe and operationally sound but it may not have the same impact that the upstairs will have so upstairs will be a very high standard and has been designed with the rail industry on board but at our cost It's certainly a difference from the previous arrangement which seems to just have a kiosk on the surface Yes, absolutely, the passenger expectation is a little bit higher than a single kiosk Yes, thank you very much indeed James I've just got a couple of questions for Mr Carol You're written now as in States The redevelopment of Queen Street Station is a challenging environment in which to work with stakeholders as you've already touched on this Can you explain why this is a case and what could be done to make the situation easier? Yes, I think as I mentioned earlier on you've got Buchanan Galleries Shopping Centre getting redone Glasgow Queen Street Station getting redone Buchanan Street Subway Station getting redone and you'll be aware of the travelator between the main station the Queen Street Station and Buchanan Street I think that's certainly going on for the work we're doing with Glasgow City Council and Fastlink and what's happening with buses in the city centre So in amongst all of that it has proved particularly challenging to ensure a co-ordinated integrated approach and I mentioned earlier about the Glasgow Queen Street passenger forum which we've used created at SPT's behest to try and ensure that from a programme point of view and an end product delivery point of view that people were co-ordinated I think we've got different experiences that if I can just focus on Queen Street Station obviously the network rail were taking that through the transport and works process and then there was the car park in North Anniver Street which was the land disposal they had to contact the office of the rail regulator about that so already quite a complicated process consulting on two different things two different processes I empathise actually with Network Rail because that was two separate things going on in one place cheap by jill next to each other not difficult for not easy for organisations like ourselves to be able to deal with that we found that the the TOS process, transport and work process was good and Network Rail were very much willing to engage and they did a lot of engagement with passengers however we felt the information that was provided in terms of leaflets that went out consultation was fairly poor and we saw more information from them we didn't think there was enough information there for people to make an informed response but we had good dialogue with them and we've worked reasonably well with them trying to get improvements made within the station in terms of external to the station as far as that goes again we've talked to ad nauseam this morning about the red line and that has proved a challenge we had good dialogue with them on that but very much it was a case of what happens outside that red line is Glasgow City Council, SPT whoever else's responsibility and that has created a challenge for us in being able to deal with that and looking after the buses you'll be aware outside Queen Street station is one of the main there's three stops not just the Glasgow airport bus comes in there so people arriving in Glasgow and getting out the corner of West George Street and Dindas Street but you've got the main bus stops going down to the east end of Glasgow so very popular bus stops over 100 buses an hour at peak times going through those bus stops so we wanted to make sure that that was integrated and obviously that leads to further costs perhaps for us perhaps for the council so I think it has been challenging it is a very constrained space but we've always taken the view that this is really a once in a generation opportunity to try and get it right to maximise integration between the rail station and the subway and the bus network and the cycle network which is a huge opportunity there we want to make sure that we we get the station itself correct that Buchanan Galleries is done in the right manner to maximise the benefit for the city of Glasgow in the wider region that being one of the main national rail stations so it has been challenging we had to put quite a lot of resource into that it has been at times quite confusing but at least I think we've managed to get there with some benefits I think for the passenger towards the process that we're going through there's still a few things to be sorted out in terms of cycling for example and others but the engagement process we've got with Network Rail and others involved in the variety of projects at the moment is good and we are taking a positive approach to that to try and as I say get the maximised benefit for all of us for that my colleague maybe if he's going to ask you some more questions later on about integration can I ask you again, I suppose it takes us back to the question that my cast about these discussions you were having with Network Rail did it allow you early enough in the process even though they weren't willing to cross that imaginary electric red line did it allow you to at least take into consideration what has to be done from the council, SBT and all the other partners and what about the discussions with the Buchanan Galleries people, how did that go? I think again just really treating the two of those separately at the moment in terms of Network Rail we always like to get as much early notification as possible I think with the greatest respect to ourselves and the councils, the earlier a council the earlier SBT or an RTP knows about something the more that we can plan ahead that's just the way these things go as I said I think the information that was coming out at Glasgow Queen Street station redevelopment specifically wasn't perhaps as detailed as we'd have liked I think the passengers would have expected to see something taking an integrated approach but the consultation that was undertaken by Network Rail was very much focused on how the station would look it didn't really talk about the wider and it did very vaguely talk about the wider integration and I think that was part of the problem so we've now got a good process I think it probably could have been earlier but it always could depend on the project in terms of Buchanan Galleries obviously they're a commercial organisation we've been aware of their aspirations to extend Buchanan Galleries for some time we've had good dialogue with them over the last few years on their plans for expansion and they've gone through the planning process and they appear to have been willing to change their plans as necessary there was a specific issue in relation to the travellator and that was sorted out eventually once all parties had agreed on the most appropriate governance arrangements for that and that's really been sorted out but again early dialogue with any developer is always welcome for an organisation like us or indeed the council your written evidence also states that SPT took the unprecedented step of contacting the Office of Rail Regulation to maintain access to a section of the redeveloped Queen Street station can you explain why this action was necessary and what impact correspondence was the ORR had this really comes back to again the kind of roles and responsibilities in the different processes this is to do with the North Hanover Street car park where they were disposing of that and they had to get permission from the Office of the Rail Regulator the ORR they contacted us, consulted with us we had a number of different concerns there in terms of pickup drop-off access etc we responded to Network Rail Network Rail then represented our view to the ORR we didn't feel perhaps that was as strong as we would have liked so we wrote to the ORR just to point out these points to them again basically what we'd said to Network Rail and the ORR of course got back to Network Rail and said no these are valid points and now as far as I'm aware the issues are being resolved in terms of the access level between the car park and the concourse the same level access at the new station there will be facilities for taxis pickup drop-off which we view as a win for us perhaps not ideal the process that we had to go through to get there but we got a good result in the end but we've already heard about Network Rail ScotRail etc and now the ORR or another organisation that's involved in the transport industry and just part of that perhaps complication that clarification that's needed on roles and responsibilities Is there a possible shortcut then to this I mean where you can contact ORR if you've got these concerns as opposed to through Network Rail who dilute the message that you want to send and then you have to go through the process again I think that there's not anything that can speed the process up anything that can make the process more transparent and more helpful I think we'd more certainly support or have specific responsibilities Network Rail has specific responsibilities and we've already talked about the security aspects the number one thing in running any transport system is obviously safety security and that can often lead to challenges as we've heard earlier from the other speakers I think that if it was possible to try and improve that process we'd more certainly support it I think it's probably not ideal the process we've had to go through to get that result we've got the result in the end and that's the most important thing it comes back to what I was saying earlier each of these projects is different if there had been one process in place for the redevelopment of Queen Street station and the disposal of land at North Hanover Street it perhaps could have been taken part of that there were two separate processes two separate consultations and that perhaps wasn't ideal when you're looking at, as I say the integration changed to one of Scotland's main rail stations I'm just going to touch on the integration and then Pashore and my colleague you highlight that there's further scope to improve integration between modes at the redeveloped Queen Street station what needs to be done to realise these improvements and who will you have to work with to achieve them the weird looking at doing these through the Queen Street passenger forum in terms of the coordination of that will obviously be relying on the council in terms of the modes and the improvements to how cycle the cycle networks integrated cycle parkings integrated with the new station there's still some issues to be bottomed out the detail of the taxis and the pickup drop off points we've always wanted to maximise the integration between the subway and the Queen Street station via the travelator and there is discussion and dialogue going on between our project managers SPT and the network rail to see how we can do that that's most certainly something that is very much in the passengers interest that's one of the most popular entrances into Buchanan Street subway so I think there's quite a lot to be done there will be require working with the council with network rail probably with Transport Scotland all the parties involved in the Queen Street passenger forum group and then various other delivery bodies we will be we're in constant dialogue with bus operators you'll be aware in the west of Scotland we've got over 70 bus operators we used to have around 130 it's gone down over the last few years so we need to be quick to work with them they provide around about 93% of services in the Strathclyde area although we support similar in the region of 7% of those services so we need to work with them to look at how the bus services the best arrangement for bus services outside the station that's again working with the operators working with the council so still a lot to be done a lot of organisations that we need to work with and I suppose now that we're moving into the kind of delivery phase that's something that we will most certainly be putting resource into and getting on with okay thank you very much Mary and just following on from the questions that James Dornan was asking specifically in relation to integration of bus and rail services we had over 450 responses to the survey particularly about Glasgow Central and one of the concerns that was raised by a number of those respondents was the lack of integration between bus and rail services particularly Glasgow Central they raised concerns about a lack of real-time bus information and also signage in the station directing people where to get buses and trains and how to connect to the different railway stations do you have any plans to tackle that because if you think about coming off a train at Glasgow Central there is nothing there to tell you where to go to get a bus and where that bus takes it and as you walk right out of Glasgow Central station if a memory serves me correct and James you might know this better than me or you might remember there's only a very small sign to tell you the walking route to Glasgow Queen Street station so there is very very little in the way of signage or bus information at Glasgow Central If you'll permit me I'll talk about other stations just to give examples and then come back to the example of Central station at Queen Street station the redevelopment that's something that we feel we very much got a win on through the TOS process was ensuring there was adequate signage for the subway for the bus network and I think you'll see an improvement a step change at Queen Street station when it's done in terms of directions to cycling one of the things that we got across in our consultation response was that while a lot of people who use Queen Street station or indeed any other station are regular users of that station there is obviously a lot of tourists come into Queen Street, come into Central station who aren't familiar with it so you do need that signage put in place I'll move on to Partick now where that was a project that we took forward integrating rail, subway and bus it's the only one in Scotland and that was something again we made sure there's good signage in there not only for other modes but also for things like the Riverside Museum et cetera and now I'll stay in Partick and it's also got the signage up for how to get to the new South Glasgow hospital so we can do things live and make sure that that's there with regard to Central station it's long been an aspiration of SPT to improve the integration with the bus network you have on Union Street just right next to Central station a de facto bus station hundreds of buses are now going through there the three stops, not ideal and we are continuing to work with Glasgow city council to see what we can do about that with regards to the integration absolutely if there's something that can be done Central station is a network rail station again very much something that we would like to see improved and again we're working with them you'll be aware Glasgow city council recently came out with a city centre transport strategy looking to improve that we've been working on Fastlink a key element of that is access around the city centre rationalising how the bus services go through the city centre where they can stop making improvements on Union Street and integration with the biggest station in Scotland is obviously a key priority for us and will be not just us working with Glasgow city council and Union Street but I think it's most certainly something that we need to work with network rail on because I agree with you at the moment it isn't ideal so network rail are responsible for all the signage within the station excuse me what dialogue have you had to try and persuade them are they not open to including additional signage or information in the station as far as I'm aware I wouldn't be able to comment but it's most certainly something we'll take away today and I can find out and get back to the committee on what dialogue we have had I know the priority for us has been working with the council to get Union Street to get agreement on what we can do there for the bus network and we'll most certainly look at what we can do with the integration with central stations so again I'll perhaps respond to the clerk of the committee to clarify what we've done about contacting network rail about that and also for us to know the background of what you've tried to do so that we can put those questions to network rail when they come to committee because there's certainly plenty of scope within central station for additional signage whether it's on the main concourse or in the large ticket office that they have as you come out of central station there is ample room so the background to what you've done would be helpful many respondents also raised concerns about the pedestrian environment specifically around Glasgow Central Station the clutter, the congestion the time it takes to cross roads difficulty in accessing other modes of transport what's been done to try and alleviate those problems well I think that's probably a question best answered by Glasgow City Council but I think just at a strategic level we'd say it is central station is actually a really great station it's one of the best in the UK in my view in terms of the scale of it in the way generally it operates they made some improvements about 5 or 6 years ago to the way the station improves and I think that's worked reasonably well outside the station again it's perhaps a victim of this red line boundary which is coming up continually this morning and again I know that council in partnership with others will be looking at how they can improve that but again that's probably a question best answered by Glasgow City Council I do know that we've worked with Abelio for example and others over the years or first as it was previously on the interstation bus the connection between Queen Street Central and Buchanan Street that's something that we've always had a big aspiration to improve and we think it could indeed be improved even further now but yeah the pedestrian environment isn't ideal but it is a very camped site, very constrained you've got as I've said Union Street on one side and many other buildings and busy streets on others and Gordon Street you've got one of the most popular taxi ranks in Glasgow so it's quite constrained around there but when you do come out the station it isn't particularly welcoming and I know that's something that the council and others like ourselves have an aspiration to improve but as I say probably best answered by Glasgow City Council and myself and my final question is around the connections between Glasgow Central and Queen Street and if you could talk around the bus link first and then we can talk about the cycle connections and the walking route because when you come out of Central Station particularly if it is very busy I use the station all the time and on more than one occasion I have seen pedestrians almost knocked down by the connecting bus coming in because a lot of people don't know if you're a stranger to the city you don't know the bus is coming in there it's very congested again within the station and I take your point that it's network rail there's not a huge amount of signage to say that the connecting bus to Queen Street Station leaves outside there's nothing really outside to say this is where the bus is, this is when it comes in so what's been done to improve that link between the two stations particularly by the bus I mean it's what was previously called the 398 service it is specified by Transport Scotland in the franchise Abelio have committed to continue that we did have some dialogue with Abelio to look at getting an electric bus put on that route because it is quite a visible bus in the city centre and particularly if it's pumping out emissions then people do notice that because of its profile that's something they didn't want to take forward but again something we're more than happy to engage in dialogue with them I don't think the current way the bus operates is ideal I think you're absolutely right in terms of coming out the station perhaps isn't clear and if there's any safety issue again that would be something that you need to question network rail on I know at Queen Street Station where it is at the moment it's perhaps not the most ideal to get off the concourse and the interstation bus is there perhaps not as obvious as it could be it is reasonably well used but it's a vital service for people who have difficulty walking etc but again very much could be improved and we'd be delighted to discuss with Transport Scotland Network Rail and Abelio how best to do that but again probably a question for Network Rail and those others in the rail industry how best to do that and the walking distance between stations five minutes I can do it in five minutes it's a fairly short route but it's quite a complicated route to especially to tell someone that doesn't know the city so clearly there's improvements that could be made to the walking route and also the cycling route so who would be responsible for them would it be the city council or? It would be the city council but again that's something we've been working closely with Glasgow City Council on improving the local network across the west of Scotland over the last few years we've invested millions of pounds in it again not ideal if it's a day like today it's a lovely walk if it's not a day like today which unfortunately in Glasgow it regularly is it's a bit of a pain you need to follow the Zed along Gordon Street, Buchanan Street then on to West George Street I do know the council have on West George Street you might be aware just as it comes up to Dundas Street there's an improvement there that makes things a wee bit easier it's still particularly busy but something we'd be delighted to talk with Glasgow City Council about improving the cycle links between the two stations I do know it's something that Abelio in their new role as the franchise holder they're very keen to lift the standard of cycling integration with rail and again perhaps something we can talk to Abelio about but yet anything like that can be improved you've got the two major stations as you say within five minutes of each other so it's only right that the signage the linkage by pedestrians and bicyclists is improved there because it could be something as simple particularly for the walking route is providing some sort of small map with a kind of basic this is Glasgow Central and you are here and showing you the route and if that was available in both stations that would certainly make it much much easier but again that would be something for Network Rail to look at I think there is signage and maps available within Central Station it's perhaps just making the visibility of those a bit better which is always the issue OK thank you Thank you Do members have any further questions for our witnesses this morning? No in that case can I just bring our decision to close by asking each of the witnesses take home message which they would want to leave with the committee I'm conscious that one of the themes across the range of evidence sessions that we've had is this need for what you might call the three Cs collaboration, coordination and consultation in different ways each of the witnesses in our different sessions have highlighted those but I just wondered if you had a take home message for the committee We'll go this way shall we I think the number of organisations that have been mentioned around the table this morning perhaps says its own message that the integration and coordination are the most important thing I've talked about the Glasgow Queen Street passenger forum which has been a positive step forward one thing I'd like to highlight to the committee is SPT is a regional transport partnership identifying the issues that went on with Glasgow Queen Street and other things I've recently written out to the various partners in the transport industry to establish what we're calling the West of Scotland transport integration forum specifically to look at high level strategic what are you doing, when are you doing it what's the stage of the process that you're at to try and bring together and facilitate better coordination we're relying on the goodwill of organisations to be involved in that and we've had a positive response so far interestingly I think the first response we got was from the CPT so the bus operators very keen to be involved in that, they're obviously commercial organisations and we welcome that I think that's the kind of a step forward we'd like to see and I think the important point that I'd leave for you is organisations like SPT regional transport partnership where we do have statutory responsibilities we do have a multimodal remit, we'd be delighted to take a stronger role in organising and integrating and coordinating major transport projects to provide a a one stop shop for that kind of work and we'd be delighted to talk with yourselves and others in Transport Scotland about how we could take that forward yeah and not just a number of points just to summarise first and foremost it means to be passengers at the heart of what we're trying to do here and sometimes it's been said this morning it's not about people on stations that you know and you know how to get to one place to another and you know the set out it's for people who don't know and people with disabilities and people with difficult access I think so passengers seem to be has to be at the heart of any decision making process we take and also linked into that is the integration of all modes we need to get far better at by how we do that we're not lucky enough to have a transport authority like Strath Clyde and Glasgow House I would like that and that might be in the future hopefully might be considered but we have got a Transport for Edinburgh board which I chair which brings together particularly tram and bus because unlike Glasgow we have a Lothian bus services it's the majority of the bus services that is provided in the city as publicly owned but again that Transport for Edinburgh could see that kind of integration how we progress that we also have set up in the last year because aware of it is a kind of rail forum bringing together all the rail operators and another one that brings together all the bus operators and they've found that quite useful and so have we particularly talking about integration and how they work better together and how we work better there as a council with them so that kind of conversations but also working together and sitting round a table but integration is the key so that it's easy we all go to European cities where we go from one mode of transport easy in terms of ticketing but also from one mode of transport so much easier to the other and that has to be the key of particular rail stations but how does it integrate secondly it's just about network rail and about the open and accountability I think needs to be looked at and that has been discussed thirdly is about permitted development and whether that's something that might be wished to be considered the station fund and how that works and how open accountable that is and whether that could be used just for rail only and who designates what rail only is and I'm sure all of us would welcome some resources to help out with the stations also information is key and that's come out this morning as well in terms of not just signage, signage internally but also externally as well and I think we as local authorities need to get better at that as well and also maps online not everybody's online but maps etc and information that you get before you get to the station as well that's one of the things that we've discussed is that it's all very well when you get to the station and there's signposting but actually before you get the information that's given to you if you're coming from abroad or you're coming from London or wherever and you're coming into the rail station you've got that information how you can get the taxi how you can get a bus, how you can get a tram all of that so getting that information I don't think we're good enough as well but signage is pretty important and I think that needs to be looked at so these were the kind of points that I hope that has been brought out this morning that's quite an extensive shopping list so thank you for that Mr Galatly you have the final word I would say I think you've heard there's a plethora of stakeholders we must make them feel that they're actively involved when we're planning strategising for the future they must be engaged we must remember why the station is there it gets a little bit too self-serving thinking about the operational and the facts and that boundary is not a glass roof or a glass wall this all goes right back to our house on the bus when we've gone down time we must remember the joined up in this of our city lives I would also just finally want to say that rail travel I said it before is a regional and a national issue it's not always local and a helping hand at feasibility stage would be a lot more helpful than a stop, too many stops so you can't do this we just need the helping hand to break us through with our concepts and ideas because there's people all over the country wishing to take things forward and any help would be greatly appreciated can I thank each of our witnesses for their comprehensive evidence this morning it's been incredibly helpful to the committee in taking forward this important piece of work and I now move this meeting into private session