 There is a long history of Linux distributions attempting to collect user data in order to make their projects better This has happened many times over the years Ubuntu has tried it Katie Plasma. Good. No, Linux meant Debbie and you name it Distributions attempt to collect user data and every single time this happens every time it's proposed or it actually happens The Linux community loses their minds because Linux is supposed to be about privacy Windows is the one that collects all the data Linux is supposed to be all about user privacy and user freedom, right? That's the whole stick of Linux, right? And every time a distribution attempts to collect user data People just either don't understand or they get irrationally angry or rationally angry depending on which way you want to look at it And it just kind of causes a lot of drama So we actually have a brand-new piece of drama to discuss today fedora has proposed or a group of people inside of fedora Have proposed to add telemetry to fedora during installation and then beyond, right? so today we're gonna be talking about this proposal and we're gonna kind of go through it just a little bit and It's kind of good kind of bad in my opinion But that's just a little bit of spoilers and then at the end we're gonna talk about the merits of actually collecting telemetry And some of the pitfalls that we could see so let's go ahead and talk about the proposal before we do if you could leave A thumbs up on this video. I'd really appreciate it. It really does help the channel So the proposal was given by the red hat display systems teams now This right here is our first red flag over why there's so much drama This all comes on the back end of the whole red hat shenanigans of the last few weeks Now if you haven't been following it red hat decided to take red hat enterprise Linux and put it behind a Paywell all the source code which you can then debate over not whether or not still open source all this stuff There's a whole bunch of drama going on with red hat people have now considered that red hat is the devil and all this stuff now Depending on what side you come down on that, you know, there's a whole argument and stuff like that But we don't need to go into that but really one of the things that set a lot of people off is that this is being Proposed by some people inside of red hat who work on fedora Which there are a lot of red hat people who work on fedora It red hat has a lot of influence over fedora And that's one of the reasons that a lot of people are upset about this proposal beyond that There are some actual problems with the proposal. So first let's talk about what they're actually Proposing to do basically what they want to do is during installation They want to have an option and we'll talk about that option here in a minute of Collecting usage metrics on fedora workstation and if you go down to this section here Over what data they may collect they give some examples So they want to talk about the banners in good home software how frequently panels and good home settings are Accessed and used so that they can determine if they can get rid of some of them or not Right, so they don't want to go down the whole KDE path where they just have a whole bunch of panels and their settings panel is completely You know overwhelming to new users and regular users alike So those are the types of options that they are Thinking of collecting or the type of data that they're thinking of collecting a lot of people had a big problem though with this section Right here because those Examples that I just said said are two of just the very few Examples of data that they actually say they want to collect the rest of it is very vague Talking about the goals of what they'll do with the data once they collect it instead of the actual data that they're going to collect So there's no dot-by-dot list of what data they want to collect instead They sell they basically say they'll get to that later once the proposal has been approved And that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because when you're making this type of Controversial change the more information you have to convince people the absolute better And I think that that is where one of the mistakes that they really made with this proposal is that they have Not given as much information as they should have right out the bat Now if you want to see some fantastic Linux drama, I highly recommend you go into the comment sections of this proposal You'll probably be reading for hours because there are hundreds upon hundreds of comments There's several breakout discussions and stuff that they've developed talking about different topics and aspects of this proposal It's fantastic if you like the type of Linux drama that I like So definitely head on over to the comment section below if you want to read those But beyond that there are a couple things here that stand out for me the biggest one if you go we go down here to User control now this section here just is really weird So they are not interested in opt-in metrics. So by default this is going to be opt-out But also not really so it's really weird So let me I'm gonna actually read this so a new metrics collection setting will be added to the privacy page in Gnome initial setup And also to the privacy page in GNOME control center This setting will be a toggle that will enable or disable metrics collection for the entire system We want to ensure that the metrics are never submitted to fedora without the user's knowledge and consent So the underlying setting will be off by default in order to ensure metrics upload is Not unexpectedly turn on when upgrading from an older version of fedora So if you just stop there you think well, this is opt-in and that's okay, right? Because a lot of people are much more Okay with opt-in metric collection than they are with opt-out meaning that it's on by default So that whole partial paragraph right there says basically that it's opt-out, but it's not actually opt-out It's actually opt-in or excuse me. It's opt-out not opt-in messed up there But as they go on to say however, we also want to ensure that the data we collect is meaningful So GNOME initial setup will default to displaying the toggle as enabled even though the underlying setting will initially be disabled The underlying setting will not actually be enabled until the user finishes the privacy page to ensure users have the opportunity to disable the setting Before any data is uploaded. This is to ensure that the system is opt-out not opt-in This is essential because we know that opt-in metrics are not very useful few users would opt-in because and this is me saying this nobody actually wants you to collect user data and Therefore they would not actually volunteer this you have to actually trick people in order to get there And that's part of the reason a lot of people have problems with opt-out metrics So and then they go on and then these users would not be a representative of fedora users as a whole We are not interested in opt-in metrics So basically what they're saying here is if you're an existing user fedora when you upgrade to a new version of fedora It won't be turned on by default for you, which is very nice of them I suppose but if you're installing fedora fresh You are going to have to turn this off in order to actually not be a part of the collected data So the whole opt-in opt-out argument is probably the one argument that happens every single time a distribution proposes data collections. So with Ubuntu, it's opt-out by default during their install installer okay, and they had faced quite a bit of Flack for that, but they never reverted and I guess kudos for them for sticking to their guns But that pissed a lot of people off because opt-in Metrics a much more user and floss friendly, right? it's more privacy respecting and Because people don't necessarily always read the things that they are you know actually Seeing on their screen during the installation. They should do but they don't so it comes across as Disingenuous to have that on by default because a lot of people aren't going to actually notice that it's there Right, especially a new screen that people have never seen before They might pass by and never actually know what they're agreeing to which is you know their problem not fedora's But again, it's a problem right and Ubuntu face the same thing now many other projects have decided to do Opt-in metrics so plasma has opt-in metrics Debian has opt-in metrics meaning that you have to turn it on in order for that data to be collected Which is and I think that most people agree with that's the proper way of doing it in terms of being a very you know Foss friendly user friendly privacy respecting project So that seems to be something that they're not even considering and that's one of the if you go and read the comment section Below that's one of the things that a lot of people have a big problem with is that this is going to be opt-out Not opt-in and they're not even willing to have a conversation about it, right? This is a community proposal, but this is the one option where they're like You know, this is the way we're gonna do it And if we're not gonna do it this way we might as well not do it at all, right? So the opt-in opt-out argument is probably the biggest problem with the proposal that a lot of people are having and I can see where they're coming from because opt-out is always worse than opt-in You should always always be opt-in But I can also say the developer's point of view here because if you have it as Opt-in you're not gonna have as much data There which means that it's going to be less useful the more data you have if you're going to do this The better because it gives you an idea of actual trends. So it's like having a poll during a political season the the bigger the poll and the wider range of People that you ask the more likely you are to get to an answer that actually Represents the broader range of opinions, right? That's the same thing here the more data you have the better It is for actually understanding what how fedora is actually used So I understand that point of view, but if you're going to be a Privacy respecting open-source project if that's the image that you want to Actually push out there to the public you have to follow through with that You can't say that and then do something else which is apparently what they are proposing to do Another spot here that where a lot of people had a problem was this part about the GDPR now I am an American through-and-through yee-haw And I don't know much about the GDPR. We don't have that kind of nonsense over here We're freedom fighting loving Americans steal all of our data all you want. I guess I don't know But the this section here made a lot of people upset because it is fedora legal's obligation to ensure our data collection complies with legal requirements in the jurisdictions in which redhead operates This is not an obligation of the fedora community So there is no need to discuss GDPR rules on our mailing list another Aspect of this proposal where they just basically said this is somebody else's problem. There's no sense in Debating it at all. Let's not talk about it. Well that The idea behind this kind of proposal all aspects of it have to be available for discussion, right and To say blatantly well, let's just not talk about this And then to go on to say something like the proposal owners will not respond to mailing list posts that discuss GDPR Similar legal obligations during the change proposal discussion in short Let's keep this discussion focused on what fedora should and should not do whether or not and what it must or must not do now I can kind of understand the whole argument here because basically they're gonna have to follow the GDPR whether The discussion in the comment sections changes their mind changes their mind and are not so they're gonna follow the law But there are things that could be beneficial to discuss relating to privacy and the GDPR and so like that and to say We're not even going to reply to that kind of stuff It doesn't really seem to be the most open-minded kind of proposal and it to have that to be the second place where they said Basically, we're not going to discuss this It kind of rub people the wrong way now the last thing that I wanted to talk about is who has access to the data so Basically what they've said throughout the proposal is that the data that they're collecting is going to be available via an open source Server and that they're going to be very explicit in documentation over what data They have collected where that data resides and how they're actually using that data now Here's the issue though right is that we have to trust them at their word now If they are going to maintain that transparency throughout that's probably better than any other distribution does it But we've had examples before people of the distro saying they're going to be transparent and they're not actually being transparent about it So for example, and I know I'm picking on a boon to they collect data like this and it's opt out Which means that it's on by default and they do actually Actually post the data that they collect eventually And by eventually I mean they do it many many months after it's been collected after they've used it They don't do it They don't will do a good job of explaining explicitly what they've used that data for And they're not very transparent on over on where that data is kept How it's stored and all this stuff and Obviously that's just the way they've Decided to do it And I say fedora has done a better job of being transparent about it so far because ubuntu just decided to do telemetry Whereas the fedora team is actually proposing it and allowing people to discuss it before it happens So there is a difference there but it does Require some trust on the part of the linux in fedora community and specifically That they're actually going to maintain that transparency You know long term And whether or not you do trust the fedora team kind of comes down to the Idea of whether or not you trust red hat because yes fedora is a community project Yes, most if not all the control over fedora is with the community But red hat does have quite a bit of Influence on the direction fedora goes and if that influence were to turn into a negative You know direction What is to say that the data that they collect doesn't Somehow end up behind a paywall someday I don't know I doubt that that actually happens But you know there's a bad taste that has been in everybody's mouth regarding anything to do with red hat And that this is being proposed by a team at red hat Does give you some pause over whether or not the trust can be extended to this proposal So whether or not you come down on one side or the other really depends on whether or not you can say you Absolutely trust the fedora team me personally. I mostly trust the fedora team But I also have a healthy level of skepticism over all telemetry simply because I don't think that There is a very good way of ever doing it in terms of absolute privacy There's always going to be some kind of data there that is Identifiable in some way Whether it's through a I or huge language models or whatever You know tracking you through that kind of data is possible. It's been shown to be possible So there's no good way to collect telemetry telemetry and be privacy focused That's that's my whole argument about this whole thing and I guess the Where we should end up is kind of to talk about the broader sense of whether or not telemetry Is a good thing or a bad thing and I could probably talk about this for quite a while But for me personally I can see both sides of it Whenever something like this comes up one of the things that I do In my brain hole is to try to see both sides because Not everything is always good. Not everything is always bad. Usually everything is right in the middle, right? Things when two people are trying to tell a story about what happened. Usually You know the truth is somewhere in the middle, right? And and it's the same thing here You know there's always two sides of whatever is going on And I try to see both sides of that so I can understand that they want to have data to make fedora better and theoretically as a former fedora user I am okay with the idea of that because I want fedora to get better Just like I wanted, you know, ubuntu to get better and debian to get better and every distribution that has attempted to do this I want them to get better. I don't want them to stay the same and if Collecting tiny smidges of user data can help them make things better. I think that that's okay But I can also from the privacy side of things understand why users Don't want their data collected and they don't want to have that data in the hands of people that might someday not be trustworthy Whether the trustworthy now or not people want to have control absolute control over their data Especially people who use linux people who use linux are much more likely to Want that control over the data than someone who uses google chrome, right? You know those you know people if you use google, you know, you've basically sold your data for those free services When you choose to use privacy respecting software like linux You want to have that full control? So where I come down on this really does come down to the idea How this is done is the most important thing whether or not it is done or not can be Debated by other people but for me The most important thing has always been how Is this done because we've seen as I said before Examples of this being handled poorly and it being handled well. I think fedora comes down somewhere in the middle They are definitely being more open about this process than ubuntu was by far You know like said ubuntu just did it right and whether or not there was some discussion beforehand in in Like ubuntu land like ubuntu forms or not. I don't know. I never saw any of that stuff But it definitely never went mainstream right was definitely was not a A large conversation amongst the greater ubuntu community right with fedora This has become something that is right out there in the public as it should be and I think that that is a good thing I think that them Making this proposal and having it being a community decision is also a good thing I also think that the proposal has some problems It's not as specific on what actual data that they want to collect and while I understand the idea that they don't have All that information yet. They haven't come up with those ideas yet I think that they could have done a much better job of saying these are at least the things that we've thought of So far that we wanted to collect beyond just the four things that they mentioned And I think that that would have set some people You know set some people's minds at ease if they had at least a list of things that hey These this is the data points that we want to collect. This is how we're going to collect it This is where we're going to store this is who's going to have access to it And while they do have some of that information in there a big portion of this proposal Is focused mostly on the goals of what they'll do with the data once they have it instead of the actual data They're going to collect right and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way So for me personally, I think that the like I said the most important Thing about all of this is how that how it's handled and fedora has both positive and negatives when it comes to that So, uh, here's my question for y'all. What do you guys think of fedora adding telemetry to fedora? Do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing? I think I have a I think that a lot of people are going to say automatically that it's a bad thing But I implore you to think about it on both sides just like I did Do you do how do you think that this should be handled? Is it being handled? Well all that stuff in the comment section below. Let me know what you think I'd love to hear from you and I will like I said, I'll link the proposal in the video description Highly recommend going and reading the comments. They're pure gold in many different cases because people are riled up about this So go read them. You'll be happy you did So that's it for this video If you haven't already leave a thumbs up that really does help the channel You can follow me on masses on our odyssey those links will be in the video description You can support me on paypal or patreon at patreon.com slash the linux cast Thanks to everybody who does support me on patreon. You guys are all absolutely amazing without you the challenges If we're not be anywhere near where it is right now, so thank you so very very much for your support I truly do appreciate you guys are awesome. Thank you so very very much. Thanks everybody for watching I'll see you next time. Stay safe. Stay happy. Stay linux. I don't know where that came from I'm trying to come up with a catchphrase, but it's just I'm not original enough to do it There's a reason why Bruce Almighty said and that's how the cookie crumbles I don't know where I'm going with this. Anyways Thank you for watching. I'll see you next time