 Alright, thanks for staying with us now. A 2017 survey from Morgan Stanley reveals that more and more investors about 75% want to invest sustainably yet at the same time. They also believe that by doing so, they will have to trade off the financial returns in the honor of impact. Now, however, to add some confusion to this mix, 71% of investors in the same survey agree that sustainable investing can lead to higher profitability. So which one is it? Is impact investing profitable or does it always come at a price? Today, we want to dive into impact investment and its role in nation-building. That's the conversation for today. Now, please, let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 081-803-4663. You can also tweet at us and we'll show Africa one with the hashtag we show. I think this terminology is a bit confusing for some people, but let me try to understand if you understand where we are going. Chinela, let me come to you. What's your understanding of impact investments that I want to bring in our guests? Okay, I mean, they're two words, right? Impact and investing. We know what impact is. To make a difference, to touch something. I hope I'm right. To do something, right? And investing is you're putting in something. So, I mean, impact investing means doing something to bring about positive change in socially, in every way. Now, hear your thoughts. How are you Manny? I'm great. So, for me, I just think that it's about putting your money where it's going to work, you know, have the most impact. And when we talk about the most impact, we talk about society, we talk about energy, you know. So, I would like to also say that I think that you talked about profit, if it's profitable or not. I would say in most cases it doesn't have to be profitable because if it actually has to be beneficial to the society, we can always think about profit. So, I would like to add that nonprofit organizations can also profit from, you know, from this impact of impact investment. So, I would say that my nonprofit organization would make a great impact in the society, but might not necessarily bring forth a profit. Okay. So, that's why we are here to learn from the expert. Ms. Thelmaikia has over 22 years experience working in the development sector as an impact investor, donor philanthropic advisor and social entrepreneur. In 2020, she was listed as one of the 50 most influential women in the development sector in Africa. She is on the first national advisory board on impact investing in Nigeria where she is the gender lead. She is the co-founder and the managing partner of SME-NG and she's joined us live in studio. Might I add, she was our very, very first guest on the show and she has watched us grow. Thank you so much Thelmaikia for joining us. It's such an honor to have you after such a long time. It's good to be back and it's good to be back seeing you doing bigger and better. Oh, thank you so much Thelmaikia. You look amazing by the way. Thank you. I should thank your people too. Alright, so I mean, you heard our little banter on the conversation on impact investment, right? The reason, let me just put a bit of background as to why I thought it was important for us to have this topic. Nigeria is in dire need right now. There's a lot that can happen if we have some form of targeted investment to transform this nation. And most times people, when they think national transformation or nation building, they do not look too much around investment. They look more towards governance. That's what I'm talking about, the general populace. They are focused on governance. They are focused on politics. They are focused on all of those things. But there are silent builders of nation. And I believe that those are the people that put their money to build that nation. So maybe you should help us understand it, first of all. When we talk about impact investment, what exactly is it and how can it really transform a nation? Thanks so much, Uwa. Listening to the conversation about what impact investment is, I just thought this is not just happening here. The question of what is impact investment and what is not impact investment is a global one. And so let me be clear simply. Impact investment is intentionally making an investment to yield social, environmental and financial returns. And therefore, instructive words, they're intentional. So there must be intentionality in the investment. There must be returns that are social. There must be returns that are all environmental. And there must be financial returns. Yes, it is not impact investing if any of these pillars are missing. It is something else. So as I was introduced for the bulk of my career, I've worked in the development sector as a donor. So I came back to Nigeria to establish the Tiwa Land Yuma Foundation as the first CEO and we were giving out grants. But it wasn't impact investing because we weren't interested in returns at all. We were just, as one of you said, we were just, it was a non-profit, but we were really interested in making a difference. That was what the founder wanted to do. But that's not what I do today. Today I'm an impact investor. I run an impact investment firm and we are very much interested in financial returns. But we're not only interested in financial returns. There must be social returns and environmental. And impact investing is a defined industry now. It's gone really, really fast. Last year it was 712 billion globally. The numbers for Africa are increasing all the time. But for it to be an industry, everybody must speak the same language. So you can't go to say you want to operate on somebody in a hospital and you say I was a carpenter yesterday. They'll kick you out of the hospital. So you can't just come and say you're doing impact investing and you don't have the tools for it. And so, so that there is professionalism and so that the field is more successful, there are parameters that everyone that is in the space must have. So one of the key parameters is being able to measure if something has impact. It must be measurable. And so there are all sorts of indicators that have been developed so that we are using the same measurement tools. And so this question about measurement is often where impact investment is very challenging because impact takes a long time. And so when you're talking about impact, are you measuring over a year, three years? And when you're talking about money and investors, investors want their money back. So you're looking. So where you were kind of, I knew where you were heading to to say it mustn't always be financial. What we say in impact investment is the returns is it below market rate at market rate or higher than market rate to their three levels, whichever from the returns that there must be returns. Yes. So if you say below market rate, because maybe you're not so much, you're not interested in making a lot of money, you know, you would go for below market rate, right? But it's not true that impact investing is not always profitable. In fact, we argue those of us that are doing impact investing that it can be extremely profitable. And it is. So that's what we're doing with the National Advisory Board on impact investing. I can talk about that some more. Okay. Okay. So I hear you. And I think I'm learning, I'm learning because I didn't think that as long as you have to do with impact in society, you have to also do the profit. Because I'm very, very passionate about, you know, impacting the society. So now if I, if I get you very clearly, the way I look at it, I run the prison ministry. So I think that what I'm doing is making a huge impact in society because I take care of these people when they're inside and I take care of them when they come out, you understand? Because I know that they have to come out and, you know, be well integrated into society. So I think I'm making an impact. But if I understand what you're saying very clearly, I would say that if I wanted to do this in a way that would be intentional, social, environmental and profitable. And financial returns. Yes. So this profit is another thing. Yes, profit at the end of the day. Okay. No, no, no. Profit is a whole other thing. Financial return. Financial return is different from profit. Yes. Interesting. Now that's interesting. So I would say that maybe I would create, you know, there was a time we're talking about all these things we can create for these people, like open different types of schools, vocational schools. Yes. So I would say that if I want to convert mine into an impact business, I can say that I can create different things for these people, you know, that I, you know, take care of so that when they come out, they're learning a skill or so and then I'm making money from what they are doing. So first of all, well done with what you've described that you're doing. It sounds great. It's making an impact. Yeah. But it doesn't mean it's impact investing. Okay. So you can make an impact without it being impact investing. I also have a foundation, right? My foundation supports women and girls and it's not impact investing. I'm very clear that with my foundation, I'm not particular about financial returns. I just want to make a difference. Yeah. You can delineate between those two, but it doesn't mean that because you have finance, and that is a really, really important point that waters down the conversation around impact investing because people feel like, well, if you're making money, can you really be making impact? Yeah. That's not fair. That's not fair. Because let me tell you what the financial returns component does for you. It helps to increase your pot of money so that you can do more. Absolutely. Yeah. Right? And if you really want to make sure impact investment lasts, you need to bring in a lot of the big players, the banks, the typical financial institutions and other private sector companies. They won't get involved if there are no financial returns. So a lot of what you and I are talking about can either be charity or philanthropy. Yeah. So that's vastly different. Philanthropies do impact investing, but impact investing is not necessarily philanthropy. Yeah. I think that already answers my question because I was going to say that I know there's such a thing as SRI, that's social responsible investment. So is that different from impact investments? Yes. Right. It's different. And it's social responsible investing, impact investing, social investing on its own. There are all different types of investing and all of them have their place, including philanthropy. So philanthropy now there's venture philanthropy. So all of them have their place. But impact investing and this whole field because the question is the role of impact investing in nation building. Yes. And I think that's a really, really important one. Absolutely. And I was going to bring us back there, but let's quickly go on a very short break over right back. Thanks for staying with us now if you just tuned in. We're discussing the role of impact investment towards nation building and we have with us Ms. Thelma Ikeo. And remember you can join the conversation. Send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 0-8-1-803-4663. You can also tweet at us at Weshaw Africa one with the hashtag Weshaw. So I'm happy that you try to bring us back to the conversation. And that's where I really wanted to start my next question. I see the federal government doing a lot of things, right? They give all these $55,000 to market women and all of that. It hasn't done so much, right? If you were to give some form of counsel based on your experience because you've done a lot of work in the philanthropic space and you're seeing the difference now shifting towards moving towards impact as an impact investor, you're seeing the difference and the real impact it has compared to the time you just give people you know money and handouts. Thank you. So can you help us break it down, right? Does this really help to transform the nation? And if it's true that it does, how should the government begin to approach some of these programs that they try to put out for market women all these things that they do and you just see them doing handouts all the time because it seems not to be working because they always go back and they come back again for another sewing machine like that and they say they are doing impact. Yeah, I think and that's a really important question because I think in a country like Nigeria which is what we're talking about everything has its place. If you are giving sewing machines and all of that that has its place those are palliatives, right? Those are just supposed to solve an immediate need. It's not about long term. Impact investing by its very nature takes a long term view, right? It's investing intentionally to bring about an impact in the social well-being of whatever is the target group or an environmental impact. All of those things have long term and have financial returns. So in terms of what should the government do like when you introduced me you said I'm part of the National Advisory Board on Impact Investing. This is a board that's made up of people who head different sectors. So you have our chairman is Ibu Kwanwushika the former chairperson of First Bank. You have Lamedo Sanisi, his eminence, the former eminence of Kano. You have two Insani, you have myself. You have the MD of Sterling Bank. All people that head different things. You have Lagos Business School well on the board and the board is committed to raising one billion dollars for Nigeria for impact investing. And the idea is that if we intentionally once again make targeted long term investment, substantial investment into certain sectors in Nigeria, it will significantly alter the trajectory of those sectors and go to your point on help with nation building because the government cannot do it. It was never the role of government to invest. The role of government is to create a conducive environment. The problem is government gets into what the private sector should do. All of these people, everybody on that board has done, we were selected. It wasn't like my friend, my friend. We were selected and we were vetted. The work that you do. And then we were vetted by a global board because there's the global Sterling Committee on Impact Investing. And what they do is they go to each country, they look for people who have done well in their sector and done well in this particular area that they bring all of them together to form the national board. And so now we're floating this wholesale fund, wholesale impact investment fund. But what is critical is we also know we can't do it alone. So we've gone to the government, we've made sure of finance, we've gone to the presidency and all of them are so happy we're doing it because they know, as you said, the palliatives are not long term. We all have to take a long term view. But you see, even with one billion dollars as big as it sounds, in Nigeria, it's a drop in the bucket. So that's why, I meet people who say, why are you guys only doing two sectors? So we're doing health and agriculture, right? And to some extent we will look at other projects but we believe that if we focus on these and do this and doing deeply this question of impact. We fell here. Okay, so let me quickly ask you a question. You've talked about impact investment being long term and then you're trying to raise a billion dollars and you also said that the government can't release not the government's place to help but then again you guys have gone to the government. So how do you source for funds from individuals, from businessmen, from companies, from a big organization? What's your pitch? How do you do this? Since it's going to be long term, how do you calculate the rate of impact? In fact, we should invite you to the board because the thing about it is that we looked at models that have worked across the world. Remember I said it's not only an Nigeria thing, you're part of a global movement. And where this has been done very successfully is the UK. The UK did a wholesale impact investment fund and the government gave 80% of the seed capital. The government gave 80% of the seed capital because back to UWA's title, which is really very, I feel very, it's about building your nation. So if you're going to be doing serious investment, the government should be a partner. And we're very happy that the Minister of Finance and the Minister of State for Finance and other leaders see the importance and are looking for ways that the government can contribute. While the government of Nigeria may not be able to do the 80% that has been done in the UK, but you cannot float something like this for an entire country and not have the government be a participant. Because guess what? The question you asked about how do you raise funds, when you then go and meet other people, why should they listen to you if your own government is not interested? So it is actually a validation of impact investment if the Nigerian government is seen to have contributed. We don't know the percentages that they're going to be able to do now, but Nigerian money must be in the fund. That's it. I like that. So how do you calculate these profits? You're using profit, not money. Money, yeah. Financial returns. So what we're going to do and it has been approved is we're not managing the money ourselves. Because I can imagine if I manage the money, they'll say I gave who I was my friend. Those kind of things will happen. So the board has put something in place. I'm on the committee for raising the fund. And we're going to outsource it to an independent fund manager. And that fund manager properly vetted will bring our international partners, properly vetted will manage the fund. And the role of the fund manager is to do what? Make sure that there are social returns, environmental returns, but financial returns. The fund must bring back financial returns. And you're going to be hearing a lot about it very soon. Yes. Because we'll be talking and we'll forget that time is running. I just wanted to quickly ask, right, this is a fantastic initiative. And I can only see that, you know, if we're able to really get the buying and the sign-offs from government, to go a long way, to change a lot of things that we're struggling with in the country. Absolutely. What then happens with the issue that we have with government transitioning, like there's no continuity? How would we find a way to make sure that with every government, they understand and they get the vision? Because it's one thing for this current minister for finance to get it. Another one that comes now that says, I don't understand what you're saying, but it then just completely makes a mess of things, right? So how are we looking into that to ensure that it stays relevant across any government? So even within the government, and you guys are asking really brilliant questions, because even within the government, they form this multi-sectoral group getting different players from the different ministries. Because if it's for a home country, you know, the way, even not just Nigeria, if you design something in silos, when you now want to implement it, different people can come and just completely discredit it. So what we've done is, you know, Antoine Sani is our chair for the committee, for the fundraising committee, is make sure that there's input from different parts of government so that this issue will not arise. But I think why we will be successful at this, by God's grace, I must say, is that none of the people involved in it are in government. And these are all people that selfishly got their reputation, right? And are all people that have proven track records of success in whatever they've done, and they've all put their names on this to say we want to do it. So that is where... And you know, there are two ways to do things in Nigeria, right? You either say, this is Nigeria, it will never work. Or you say, I don't want to be part of the complaining crowd. Let me be part of the people providing solutions. And that's how I built a business here. So we've done things that people a few years ago told me would never work. And we have proven that it can work. And so that's the attitude we've just taken with this, that why complain? Let's create a solution. And this is a massive solution that will make impact. So we're looking at the agricultural sector and the healthcare sector. And there might be other considerations, but that's... That's the focus, okay. May I have some comments? Okay. You had a question? Yeah, I just want to say, you know, you said something now. You said, thankfully, nobody on your board is in government. As good as that sounds, I think it also doesn't sound so good. You know why? Because who asks the question that has its basis on policies? Someone can comment tomorrow, totally destroy what it is that you're building. So I think it would be very important to actually have people in the government that are backing this up. Well, they're backing it, but they're not on the board. I've just said we're working with Minister of Finance, working with the State for Finance and other people, you know, just former Justice Wise, who is a special adviser on... So we have different people that are supporters of this, right? But we can't have them on the board. Because tomorrow, what if there's no APC and you're trying to do this? So that is what normally kills initiatives like this across Africa? Absolutely. Yeah. Let's take some comments quickly. Okay. Okay, so the common mistake we newbies make is venturing into the market without help and legit guidance from a professional body. So impact investment to a nation building can be achieved with great minds that are business minded. Government can only create a level playing ground and a platform for investment to thrive. Great topic. Bobby Kennedy, Jalingo, Tara Birthday. Thank you, Bobby Kennedy. He's a very good one. Yeah. Yeah. Good evening, my dear beautiful sisters of what are you saying? Impact investment towards nation building. Your guest made a point that is very important. Palliatives are meant for short-time business in investments. Can I ask a question? Can the government provide long-term investment for people who cannot afford it for long-term investment and establishment? And then it goes, I have to say, sister, I'm money money. You ladies look beautiful and lovely. My name is Daniel. You know, Waze regular fan. Thank you, Daniel. So that question he asked, do you think when he said that can the government provide long-term investment for people who cannot afford it? So people who cannot afford it kills the whole. Yeah. Yeah. Because you see, the thing is, look, business is business is business. And that's what I say. Nobody goes into business to lose money. Is it emotional? Yes. So my eyes are red. I like the way you are. Yeah. When it comes to... It has everything to do with skill, management, accountability. When you're talking about business, if you're not talking about business, like I'm different with my foundation. Yes. You know, because my eyes are not as red because I'm not looking. Look, when it's business, it's business, it's business. And yeah, and you just know that you are putting so much into it. And you want to get that. And one of the deliverables of putting so much into anything is financial returns. And I tell people the quickest way to kill your passion is to be broke. Whoa. Oh, word. Hey. Word. Tweet. Tweet it. The quickest way to kill your passion is to be broke. But you still tell me. You know, that's why I love you. I was going to say that part of what I noticed, especially with some of the funds that the government had handed over in the past, people just believe that if it is the government that is giving a fund is free money. It's their own money. Do you understand? Yes. So how would you, because if you say that the government would give a huge chunk of the finance to you guys, right? How do you fight that narrative? Yeah. To ensure that these people are accountable to bring back those financial returns and also not just the financial returns, that they are more responsible with the funds and the government also does not influence because some government officials would not start to tell you that this is the person who must invest it. So how do you fight that? The same way that the development bank of Nigeria was settled by the government, but nobody can tell the development bank of Nigeria who to give money to. You know? No, they cannot. Bank of industry. Right? You can't just say, is our money give us, but they'll walk you out of their place. Of course. And I think, you know, saying that the government is going to invest, the Nigerian government is the biggest shareholder in the bank of industry. Yes. Right? That's why it's called that. So I think we have different ways that we, yes, you are right, that people think government is free money. Right? And we're very clear that that's not us. So it's also how you... Portray yourself. Portray and position yourself. Yes. It's called an impact investment wholesale fund. The words speak for themselves. It is investing. So somebody is watching now and somebody wants to access that because the goal for this whole conversation is that... Public awareness. Public awareness and people must also understand that these things are available. Yes. Because the goal is to transform businesses. Yes. Absolutely. Scale up your business, scale up to the next level. Absolutely. Absolutely. People are in their need of that. Absolutely. So how do they begin to, you know, to look out for those funds? I think that is really the most important question. We will do road shows. Okay. Because we know the buying, and we'll probably come back here. I'll probably try and get the whole board. Thank you. We know the buying of the public is critical. Whenever you say something is for the whole of Nigeria, every Nigerian will say, where's my own energy? How am I reflected here? So the road show is going to come. But you see, once we give it to the fund manager, which I talked about, the independent fund manager, that becomes their job. Not the marketing, you know, but we will just make sure the fund manager does not run anywhere without money. And, you know, we are making sure that the vision is what everyone adheres to. And so, yeah, you know, you can't do something for a country without PR, marketing. You know, the branding of it, all of that. Can Nigerians trust you guys with this to say maybe finally a solution will come for the growth of my business? I can tell you this, right? Because we're not getting paid. That's the most important thing I have to say about this. There's no payment to anybody on this board. You are chosen because of the work that you do. And you had the option to say no. And everybody on the board said yes. Okay? So if you're not getting paid and you put your reputation on the line, the one thing you have to safeguard is your reputation. Absolutely. And that is what makes us work. We work. We work. It's constant. There's a meeting. Let's do this. Let's do that. And there's a lot behind the scenes commitment that goes into something like, if we were getting paid, then you would say to us, you guys are putting the money. You're putting the time because look at the big money you are making. But that's not the case here. Absolutely. I think we can wrap it up there. Congratulations. Thank you so much. You see why we have some silent people there? We weren't close to us, but thank you so much for making it. Great to be here. I love every minute I experience with you today. And I know that this would definitely impact and transform our nation. Thank you so much, Nelo. Thank you, Mani. I'm always proud of you. Thank you, Mama. Before we go, do I ensure you follow us on Instagram, where you show Africa, TikTok everywhere, just follow us everywhere, interact with us further, drop a comment, and more importantly, follow all our engagements on social media, like, share, and invite your families and friends to watch and follow the conversation. Now, if you missed today's Quote Heritage again, rather the goal is that at the conclusion of our lives, each of us can look back on the path we took and say not that we contributed to the creation of our small part, but that we worked together, building on our relative strengths to create a greater, more sustainable whole. I think that's the whole goal of all of this, to come together and partner to build a nation. We'll see you guys tomorrow at 8 p.m. as we bring another great conversation to your screen. Enjoy.