 Well, welcome everybody welcome to this light on light press book launch event for science being and becoming the spiritual lives of scientists by Dr. Paul J. Mills. A book we're so pleased to say is already a number one in pre sales at Amazon and at other booksellers. I'm Dr Kurt Johnson a managing director at the light on light press and imprint of sacred stories publishing. And I'm here with a number of special guests, each of whom will be introduced to you further as we proceed with our time together. So these special guests are just to give you a highlight of each of them. The author of science being and becoming Dr Paul J. Mills. And then Dr Robert Atkinson a two time Nautilus award winner and also another managing director at light on light press. And then each of Dr Mills is special guests for this program. Dr Mills will be introducing to you as he further engages each of them about this amazing book and their parts in it. So those persons are Dr. Jude Curavan author anthropologist and cosmologist. Dr shaman e Jan of clinical psychology and consciousness studies University of California San Diego. And we're expecting Dr Neil These of New York University's Grossman School of Medicine. So our launch is being broadcast across Facebook today by the sign network. Thanks to john Ramer who's also with us today. And you can find out more about light on light at light on light dot us and at imprints at sacred stories.com. And more about sign at the sine Facebook page. So we're going to start out with Dr Mills talking about this amazing book and then calling in each of his guests. And then we're going to move to a discussion with Paul and Dr Robert Atkinson and then again bring on all of the guests. Paul's going to be introducing each of his guests as each of them join us. So now to get all of this rolling we're going to go over just to Paul and me. And that way I can tell you more about Dr Paul Mills. So Paul Jay Mills PhD is a professor of public health and family medicine. Director of the Center of Excellence for Research and Training and Integrative Health and the former chief of behavioral medicine at the University of California, San Diego. He has over 400 scientific publications in the fields of pharmacology oncology, cardiology, psycho neuro immunology, behavioral medicine and integrative health. And he's published some of the earliest important scientific research on meditation. His work has been featured in Time Magazine, the New York Times, National Public Radio, US News and World Report, Consumer Reports, the Huffington Post, Gaia TV and WebMD, just to mention a few. And he's presented his work at hundreds of conferences and workshops all around the world, including at the United Nations. So let's go over to Paul to speak about the book, and then to bring on each of this guest so Paul. Thank you Dr Johnson curtain thank you for your kind introduction. And I also want to thank you and Dr Robert Atkinson who's here on this launch call, and also know me name who at light on light press, and also Ariel Patricia at sacred stories for supporting the publication of this book, which without all of your support and wisdom and guidance it, it literally would not exist so I'm very grateful and thank you for that. Well hello everyone and thank you for joining this launch I'm very excited I have a lot of energy. I'm a little bit edgy because of it and I'm grateful that you joined. Before we go into our conversation, I want to tell you a little bit about the book to put the book into perspective. Before we launch into our conversations our discussions amongst all the guests. Essentially, the book is about the journey of human consciousness development, essentially often called a spiritual development the spiritual path of all human beings are on. We're not aware of it or not. We are each on this journey, we're each seeking to understand the nature of our own existence, the nature of the world around us. Who are we really and what are we fundamentally this book answers those questions through the eyes of over 30 scientists whom I interviewed. I'm going to take them and ask them to share with me, they're deeply personal trans trans personal experiences, their metaphysical experiences, their mystical experiences, and how those experiences transform them, transform their worldview transform their lives, and also fundamentally how did it transform their science. You know, science has been deeply deeply divided for centuries really divided in terms of the nature of the spiritual world the mystical the metaphysical. Typically, science outright rejects that these domains even exist for the realms of the of the human being and beyond. This is often been called the dog mode materialism science says basically what exists is everything you see with your physical eyes that we as human beings are simply our mind body or thoughts or emotions are genes essentially. And that being very deterministic and that's really our fundamental nature. But many of us know by personal experience different religions we've studied and philosophies we studied that there's much much more. Unfortunately, this this science, the dog mode materialism has kept science from opening the doors for real serious investigation into the nature of what is beyond who we are fundamentally. So the scientists I've interviewed in this book worked hard to really confront this nature of materialism the dog mode materialism to overcome that and step into their own mystical and metaphysical existence. And they shared with me those deep experiences and how it has changed them and importantly change their science. Why is it important that it's changed science, because science having closed the doors to these realms which are fundamentally important to us, not only for our existence but they also just provide deep meaning, meaningfulness to our sense of life. Those of us who can probe into these areas, it helps us overcome sense of separation and helps us embrace a more unitive worldview. But from my point of view the book is for everyone really it's for lay people it's for citizen scientists it's for scientists to encourage all of us to begin to embrace a journey of self discovery, often called consciousness development, spiritual development, find deeper meaning into the nature of our very existence. And I encourage you to do that for those of you who already have not and allow the fruits of these journeys, the fruits of getting to know yourself really fundamentally, and how that will transform your life. And that's the fundamental message of the book. And I think it's a great read of the stories amongst all the scientists are woven into a larger narrative but what's often called the mono myth or the hero or the heroine's journey. And I hope that all of us are on join the course of our lives. For the forward of the book depart Chopra sets the stage really by discussing the long standing divide between materialism of science and the spiritual, and he puts into perspective why that's been, and then how this book helps address and hopefully, provide a bit. And Ken Wilbur in a special commentary he shares his deep wisdom on the fundamental stages of our personal journeys along so called spiritual development. And there's a lot of insight there that helps set the stage for the rest of the book. So with that, I'd like to move on to our first guest that will be Dr. Jude Curvin. Jude is very much by nature, a mystic. Also a cosmologist, a futurist, a writer, and Jude I very much have enjoyed reading your books. We've had a chance to chat on previous occasions and what I thought will be helpful for those watching this this launch live is to get an understanding of how you as a scientist. You really, as a young person had deep insight into the metaphysical to the mystic and that took you to want to become a scientist to use the tools of science to understand. Well, what is really the nature of everything. And I'm wondering that journey for you how did having that perspective all along help you influence your scientific discoveries. And how did it help you is in terms of a comparison to your other colleagues and cosmology for example, who don't have that perspective. How has your discoveries been different and I would hope and imagine more rich. And again, congratulations on the wonderful book and it's so timely, because it feels to me that it's part of our collective awakening at the moment. You know this evolutionary impulse, as I'm sure you and Bob will speak about a little bit later, where we are literally remembering waking up to remember we're inseparable. So that the scientific paradigm we've sort of that's prevailed for quite some time as you say of materialist separation. And what's so exciting for me now and for all of us I think is the leading edge evidence at all scales of existence is turning it upside down, but rather more than that. It's actually healing that fragmentation into a remembered wholeness which of course universal wisdom teachings have always guided us with. And your sense of you know the spiritual journey invites us into that deeper relationship with the fundamental nature of reality so for me. I was a mystic as it were an everyday mystic. I'm not at the top of a mountain and meditated too often, but I did from a very early age experience the world is wider realms these deeper wider realms of being. And so for me, my curiosity drew me into that lifelong exploration. And so I was very fortunate in having many multi dimensional spiritual metaphysical whatever we want to, how to speak of them experiences. But that was showing me something that my curiosity to also understand the nature of this realm, this reality was really coming across and against the tenets of the scientific paradigm. What I was experiencing was not what I was being taught at school. And I had that sort of, why is this. And so I went to Oxford University I did a master's degree in physics and I specialized in quantum physics and cosmology, because I really wanted to understand as far as those teachings were how would I was experiencing what actually came into contact with this reality and that's been a lifelong journey. The thing that's kept me going is a wonderful man called Professor Dennis Sharma. And Dennis was a teacher at Oxford when I was there. And he was the mentor to Stephen Hawking, who I'm sure most of us know the name of. He said something that's held me in good stead ever since he said follow the evidence wherever it leads. Don't let others however their views are, push you off that urge that curiosity to understand and realize that the world is greater than perhaps any of us have any appreciation of. Being my journey so I've never had that sort of sense of peer pressure because I took me beyond academia so I was never in an academic environment therefore limited by that perception. And what it led me to and has led me to our discoveries and an ability to bring together discoveries of others across many, many different realms of research and scales of existence. And into this wholism there's this perspective that our universe meaningfully exists and purposefully evolves as a unified sentient entity, and it thrilled me beyond words that this year's Nobel prizes for physics, for example, two of whom Alan aspect and Anton Zalinger have been themselves on this journey of curiosity into a unified nature of reality for many years. And there was an article in the New York Times I think today, yesterday, that talks about how black holes may tell us that we're living in a holographic universe, which given that my previous book was called the cosmic is saying, okay, we're on this road together. And I think this your book is so wonderfully insightful and timely so we don't have to choose science or spirituality, they're converging into as Ken would say an integral understanding of reality itself. Thank you Jude I appreciated quite a number of points you just made including this the unit of worldview and when people embark on this journey of consciousness development the spiritual development. It naturally provides that it begins to change a person's perception so that becomes an overriding reality not separation. And each of us, regardless of what type of life and career we're living, that becomes the dominant theme the dominant perception on a feeling level. And that makes all the difference so I want to come back. I will go to our broader discussion on some of these themes. I want to turn now well first I want to say hello to Dr. Neil These who has just joined us, and Neil, going to get to you in a moment after shaman he we're going to have a couple of questions and then we're going to join as a group. So please see you and have you here on this call. Well of course I know a fair amount about your educational program at the University of California San Diego which was in many ways, a traditional education you learned about the human being on a psychological level, more traditional perspectives, physiological level, anatomy, chemistry and all of that, all again from a traditional scientific level but you've been on another journey in parallel to that which was to understand really more what's often called the esoteric aspects of the human being. Beyond the physical beyond our typical thoughts and feelings more the bio energetic side. And I'd like you to speak a little bit about that how has that journey been for you, knowing the traditional sciences and say this non traditional path. How is that transformed you, and your work and those around you which it has quite a bit because you founded the consciousness and healing initiative which is transformed many people's lives. Thank you. First of all congratulations. It's I can't even describe how special this is for me as your previous mentee and now dear friend to witness this launch date it's it's really the book is fabulous as I mentioned to you I just devoured it in a couple of days. It's so fun to read about the stories of my friends you know some of which I had known many who serve on the consciousness and healing initiative scientific advisory council. Just, first of all, congratulations to amazing and thank you. I also want to echo what Jude said and then also place it in the realities of what it means to conduct research in these areas still today. So as Jude said, we're coming closer and closer and our newest Nobel laureates that you know are helping pave that way as well as her and so to knowing that we don't have to choose. And yet as you mentioned, we are still living in a pretty three dimensional structure when it comes to academic research, health care research, health care integration of healing practices. It's a challenging time for scientists both seasoned and new. And so for me of course holding both of those worlds there was always as you know sort of a rebellious part of myself that would say well no we don't have to choose so why am I being forced to choose. As you recall Paul, for those who don't know Paul was my PhD thesis mentor at UC San Diego. And actually Paula would love to share the story that I feel like the one story that is missing in your book on in the mentorship side and love to share my mentorship story with you because I think it's so meaningful. No, when I came to the program because it was a very highly rigorous you know very you know top top five program and clinical psychology in the US. And most of what we focused on was cognitive behavioral therapy type of approaches. Mindfulness was still considered very new and I had to sort of, you know fight a little bit to get us placements and mindfulness which of course now is very mainstream but 20 years ago it wasn't. And I remember calling you and saying Paul. I know that this is a very traditional program. And I really enjoyed our conversations during our internship I'm thinking of taking up my deferment at UCSD moving from Arizona to there because I want to be clinical. And I know that I want to do a research study in energy healing. You know I don't know exactly how it's going to turn out I don't know what patient population I wanted to but I know there's something here. There's something about the biofield and the energy aspect of the work that is just not really being looked at in science and I think it's important. And Paul as you know most mentors in those traditional schools are quite discouraging and many of our colleagues and your colleagues and mentors were not very excited about us moving in this direction but I will never forget that phone call you said at that point for me that was where the mentorship started because to even just get that breath and that reflection and that yeah I think we can do that. And then because of your mentorship at UCSD not only were we able to publish the first and only randomized placebo controlled trial and energy healing for fatigue breast cancer survivors but she the consciousness and healing initiative I am quite certain would actually not exist today if it weren't for your mentorship and I want people to know that because what you did for me as a mentor navigating through an environment colleagues elder mentors as well and you know people that were really not only not understanding this but sort of a little bit actively against it. Okay, it's very difficult and yet through your mentorship you not only trained me on how to have sound scientific methodology how to write grants, how to write papers how to deepen my understanding of the healing process, but as a mentor. I want to share this because I think it's so important for all of us that might be watching who are in a position to be mentors or those of us who are seeking mentorship. A mentor can not only just shape a student but really shape the field. And I really feel like that is what you did for me and for the field Paul because you enabled us to all recognize that no we don't have to choose we can take the best of science and apply it to the so called esoteric the healing the hidden dimensions of the psyche for uncovering profound healing. And for you for me you were not only just a mentor in the, you know, in the sense of learning how to write the grants and write the papers but also how to hold the space, how to actually come in and facilitate change in environments that aren't always welcoming of a new frontier, and by simply watching you and absorbing the way that you navigated those challenges. I learned a tremendous amount that we don't have to have chips on our shoulders it's not an us versus them we're really coming from a point of understanding that we are not separate. And it's just a matter of communication and aligning with values and so I just wanted to thank you for you know that that hidden story that is not in the book of the incredible mentorship that I received from you and say that I think it's very vital to the field. I very much appreciate your enthusiasm for this launch and that story because as you're describing it it's really a kind of a prototypic example of, of the conflict and the contrast others has existed in science certainly within our lifetime and before. There are ways to navigate it. There are ways to embrace both and look at the fruition look at the fruition of your own career now, and all the benefits downstream from the consciousness and healing initiative so thank you for that. If I do a second edition. I'll put that story in there how's that sounds great. I want to move on to our next guest a dear friend Dr Neil peace and he's a professor at the New York University Grossman School of Medicine. Neil, I, I so enjoyed our interview together we I laughed a lot you had so many interesting fun stories and just just your, your nature and your attitude about your work, embracing the metaphysical and mystical along the way of your science and your medical work. One of the things I want to bring up and ask you to comment on because it's very much in theme of what we discussed so far. And it was something you shared in the book you call it a gifted moment. And it was a deep insight you had as a result of much of your Zen Buddhism meditation that insight had to do with what you described as the emptiness of inherent existence, which you can describe if you want. Beyond that, you also share that those moments of insight and what they all did to your own inner life, radically transforms your capacity to move forward with your scientific work, and with your medical work, because part of that you had your kind of Zen mystical life in one box in your brain. That's how you put it. In that same box you also had just your own family history you shared with me, your mom really lived in the world of magical realism, which if you want to share with the audience what that means, please. You have your other box of science, medicine, which which Shamini and Jude have described earlier, and the linearity of that and the separation of that, but that gifted moment. Those boxes were somehow unified, and very importantly and I tried to make this message in the book, it opened up a vast swath of creativity for you. You were always creative obviously, but it also led to just much more openness, kind of downloading of ideas and insights and creativity, which has had a really profound work effect on your work going forward. So please, whatever you'd like to share about that love to hear it. You just said it. My job. You know, congratulations on the book. Being in the middle of my now. I'm like, how did he do this with, you know, you were so calm, speaking to you. Not what I've learned writing experiences are necessarily like. The conversation for the book actually just felt like it was the continuity of my conversations with you and Tiffany since we met. And I can't remember which meeting we first met at it might have been sand, but it's just always been that kind of easy and fun fun being the most important part of it I think. Yeah, I had a different experience than Jude I wasn't. This sort of double vision and I was content to letting it be a double vision. I didn't have any particular drive to explain one in terms of the other. Maybe because I'm a Gemini. I haven't had any, any imperative. And in general, when I've done whatever academics, I've done it's really never been with a problem I felt I needed to solve I just sort of followed my nose and when I was younger. I followed my nose into something until something else attracted me so when I was a teacher Einstein teacher gave me that book in by Lincoln Barnett in seventh grade and suddenly I was a physicist. Then I was often to geology and archaeology for a while and then I discovered the 30 years that shook physics, and was suddenly a quantum physicist, and you know so I sort of bounced around and just followed my nose, going to medical was more of a pragmatic decision. And I wasn't and I was expecting to wind up very solidly in clinical practice. That was my first ambition, but that led me following my nose into pathology where I sit looking in a microscope all day looking at pieces of people rather than the whole patient. And, you know, and my research followed on that looking at human tissues, and that eventually got me into stem cell research. And then that finally 20 after 20 years of being in medicine, took me back into a laboratory to learn basic science stuff. And so that stem cell work was about how cells are moving through the body between organs to become cells of other organs something called stem cell plasticity, which is still controversial although not for me. At the time, puzzling out how cells could be moving around the body and doing things that were beyond what I had been taught and beyond what were expected became very much like a co on. As we say in Zen practice, like, you know, little problems that are unsolvable by the intellect like what's the sound of one hand clapping. It's not that it's something else. And, and at the same time, I was involved in Zen practice, I had been at that point for 10 to 15 years. And the methods of Zen practice in part the constant bringing your attention back to the present moment. As your mind drifts you can't stop yourself from thinking but as it does can you recognize it and bring it back. And one of the functions of a co on and co on practice is that it gives you something to come back to. And an earth with a sense of urgency that you're sort of compelled to come back to it. And this idea of my cells of the cells in the bodies of the mice we were studying the cells that I knew we were seeing in the human tissues that I get from my clinical work started to be, I started to become aware that these were cells in my body this was not separate from me it wasn't something outside me that I was, I was looking at. Which is perhaps more easy to reach because I'm looking in a scope at cells all day, rather than I'm thinking Jude, when you're studying physics. How do you have to extend your imagination to feel yourself part of the thing you're studying, because it's it's such a removed by scale, whereas this is actually very close by. And there were times during those months where this became sort of an acute obsession with me I just couldn't stop thinking about it in like a co on. What are my cells doing I found myself at a street corner. 20th Street and fifth avid Park Avenue in New York, and the light changed and I couldn't take the step off the curb, because I've become a flock of cells in my mind. And there was nothing to direct the step, until I sort of gathered myself back. And then sometime around there, the, the, the moment you're talking about. At that point, I was the morning opener for the village Zendo, which is my has been my Zen home for 30 years. And, and that particular morning there was no one else there it was just me and the empty Zendo, which was very peaceful and quiet. The light coming in behind me through the window and there were dust moats, sort of floating and glinting. And on the other side I had lit the incense on the altar as part of the opening of the Zendo. And rather than. But I think at that point I was, I was just following my breath that way or I was doing Shikantaza just open presence awareness but I couldn't do the Zen practice. I had assigned myself, I was doing this cell contemplation thing. And, you know, really obsessively, I couldn't let it go like a co on. And that at some point during that I looked up. I always get choked up when I talk about this. I probably did on the phone with you. I looked up and saw the altar and I saw the incense stick turning into smoke. And it suddenly occurred to me smoke incense sells this thing that I call my body. What's the difference. And Jude you alluded to this I think as I was coming in that depending on scale you get a very different view of what's an object and what's not an object. And it's all a matter of perspective, and there's no correct answer. The stick is the smoke the smoke is the stick they're not separate. They're just two complimentary views of the same thing my body is a flock of cells, as opposed to this thing I name Neil, and walk around thinking I'm separate. Those are just two complimentary views. And then, if that's true of cells well are they reified things no they're just proteins in water. I mean, in molecules in water. And those are just atoms, and those are just subatomic particles and then you're down to the quantum foam and there's no they're there, there's no it there. And it suddenly occurred to me, oh, this is what they talk about as the emptiness of inherent existence. Nothing is a thing at every perspective. So that had been that's one of those weird Buddhist things what the hell do you mean emptiness of inherent existence, I couldn't, you know, fine. And then it so suddenly became so easy so I took this to in Zen practice you go to your teacher in interview one on one interview to check your insights and and I said, I think I got an insight into the emptiness of inherent existence and I explained it to her. And she said, yeah, and I said that's it. She said, it's simple. It's not easy, but it's really simple. But as you said from there that just sort of loosened up the boundaries and the bonds of how I held interpreting data that I see under the microscope, or that I see out in the world. Are there boundaries or not, depending on my perspective and I can choose my perspective boundaries come boundaries go. And so speaking. You know in meetings that shaman is held. Talking about the biofield well at the electrical level at the quantum level. Where's the boundary of your body. It's out there. Thanks to entanglement and non locality. It's all the way out. And there's no separation at all. And so suddenly I had no connection particularly in finding a way to bring these things together. But just held them both and eventually they merged and then everything like you said opened up from there. And that was a gift I don't know how that moment happened. You know the soil had been tilled. Yeah, it had been planted and then I got out of the way. So we're recounting that story Neil and such a full and rich way and I want to add that really all the interviews in the book, each of the scientists that are interviewed shared what was the fundamental insight the experience that that open things up. And so that sense of separation, or prior limited identity of I am a person only in this body with my thoughts and feelings, and led to an openness and then a connectivity to everything and everyone around them. And of course this isn't just limited to scientists the book is an interviewer scientist simply because of my own interest in science and the efforts to transform science so it starts to help us more rather than hinder us, hinder as people as a society as a world to help us uncover these same kind of insights for everyone, and to transform us and that's the message of the book. Well I'd like to open it up just for some any free flow conversation or comments around that and really how if those of you are on the call can share how might this book be of further service to really anyone who reads it. In that way it's not a scientific book I don't go into all the details of different theories and sciences. It's really personal journeys of human beings, along their own spiritual development. These people happen to be scientists, but it's obviously applicable to all of us. Well, I think what I'll do step in a minute Paul because I noticed that the book has been lurking behind you. They may not be familiar with the cover and so we'll kind of blast everybody with this beautiful cover right now, but the cover is very consistent with the message that you just talked about. I would say you know of course my doctorate in evolution and ecology and the complementarity that Neil mentioned, I just want to bring in here to because it's interesting that the evolutionary paradigm now in understanding group and multi level selection and the evolution of human beings and showing actually that the evolutionary process is choosing for that good of the whole and choosing toward what can become a planetary altruism, and that epiphany has not come from spiritual people that has come from data sets from mainly materialist scientists who are then have discovered, oh my gosh, natural selection has these three different ways of working and one of the major one is choosing for the good of the whole. And that implies that our behavior is moving in the same direction that the great wisdom traditions have also taught so our colleagues in that realm David Sloan Wilson and ill Wilson who have really been pioneering that new paradigm of cooperative evolution. And that's part of this, this confluence that's going on so just nice to have a chance to bring in that that side of it as a evolutionary biologist. And I'd like to take the talking stick on from from Kurt then. Now what we're now finding as a cosmologist what we're now finding is it's not just biological evolution we're talking about. It's a universe that embodies an evolutionary impulse and has done so for 13.8 billion years, you know from simplicity to complexity and individuated self awareness. The evidence is also showing us as many eminent scientists also themselves maintained such as Einstein Max Planck Schrodinger James Jean's many. You know this is a this is a universe where mind and consciousness aren't something we have there literally what we in the whole world are. So we have this more fundamental convergence of science and spirituality at the deep level of the nature of fundamental reality. And that sort of perception of trying to hold, you know, it's falling away as Neil said you know unity differentiates itself, unity boundaries itself but unity is inseparable. So when we literally wake up to that perception, then we also see that the biological evolution is a continuation of simplicity to complexity, but always for the good of the whole but now to go beyond the consciousness and talk about universal consciousness and the university itself is, you know, meaningfully existing purposefully evolving a sentient living universe, where we are it's microcosmic co creators. And this is such a grand, grand, amazing new unitive narrative that is convergent with universal wisdom teachings. But as you say poor it's for everyone this is our heritage. This is our lineage. This is our evolutionary potential. So it's far far more important than than a few folks that are, you know, following particular methodologies to come to this perspective, but those perspectives are crucial. Because if we're still tied into the old fragmentation, the material separation, then it's actually acting as a lag to what is an inherent evolutionary impulse that's flowing through us and flowing through our planetary home Gaia and flowing to our entire universe. And that's beautiful and I agree. If we have a more materialistic mindset it does. It is a bit of a barrier. And that's why books like this and many others just begin to open our thinking process up and that allows some of these impulses and are inherent natural existence to begin to emerge through. I want to add Jude what you were speaking about it. I thought of Rupert Sheldrake's book, set science free. And, and I was thinking part of this book is set scientists free, but beyond beyond that I want to say that, based on all this, the that you mentioned in Bob and Kurt and Neil that science is in some way setting itself free with all these discoveries that's leading to an inevitable conclusion about the unity of everything, the conscious unity of everything. And we're just trying to help wake up more individuals along the way. So each person can enjoy the gifts and benefits of living from that perspective. There's an invitation isn't it. There's an invitation I hope everyone accepts it. Neil, and I pick up that talking stick. You know, and I think you said this could have been around a book of any constituted group of people, but the thing about having it come from scientists. It's a really bizarre culture from the point of view of human history this idea that science empirical science and formal mathematics are the ways to understand truth. And there's this idea that in our culture that that's the case. And that's funny for a couple of reasons. The first is that the people who believe that in our general culture which is sort of anyone you might talk to walking down the street for the most and harbors beliefs that have nothing to do with empirical science or formal logic and can't be proven or described by those. So there's this split in people's heads. But culturally we've set scientists and mathematicians as those ultimate arbiters. And that isn't a typical standard for human culture. And it really blossomed in the most, I think, complete way in Vienna. After World War one with a group of philosophers and scientists and mathematicians and logicians. And setting aside what they saw as all this medieval church based European way of viewing metaphysics metaphysics was to be abolished. And things were to be set on this scientific scientific and logical path. They failed. And they failed because quantum physics said there is no separation between subject and object to the most fundamental levels of existence. That's well known, but for my logic failed because Kurt Gödel came along with the incompleteness theorems and said there will always be truths that can be demonstrated to be true but cannot be proven to be true within our system. And so their whole approach failed. But Hitler invaded Austria. All those people scattered to the four corners of the earth where they got prominent appointments they'd already been very influential. They got prominent appointments in science and philosophy departments around the world. And their influence sort of created this helped to create and reify this milieu where empirical science and formal logic are everything. But the fact is they failed. They're not everything they can't explain everything so for you to come through and take empiricists like us and demonstrate that if we are imbibing all of this and still see that it isn't sufficient to say what truth is. Then that empowers other people to let go of this as well and I think it's, it's not only for it to loosen up scientists, but to loosen up everyone else's internal conflicts between they believe it's all about science and now. But in fact what they believe is there are non material worlds out there and there are experiences that can't be captured in physics and and. So I think it's a really, and I don't think anyone else has done it like this it's a profound as the potential to be a profound wedge for people. Thank you Neil I can see how your deep Zen contemplation brought this great insight that you just shared all about the further applicability of this book, having started in focusing on scientists and how that might help others who are non scientists because if we can overcome this kind of illusion of separation and materialism anybody can because we're deeply trained how to stay there. Yeah. Well, thank you so much and we're going to move to the next phase and I'd like to bring on Dr Robert Atkinson, who's one of the editors at light on my press. And again Robert thank you for all of your deep support for getting this book created. And I know you'd like to chat with us about the evolution of consciousness towards wholeness and you are one of the four spotlight authors in the book. And this has been one of your expertise areas about the nature of consciousness continually moving towards wholeness. And so please proceed. Well, so much. It's really a pleasure to be part of this book launch and to have contributed a spotlight to this groundbreaking, really rich book, which illustrates so well how innate potential is fulfilled, and how we can live into wholeness in two ways. First, by showing that the evolution of consciousness does lead toward wholeness and unity. And second, by showing that in fulfilling this potential, we follow a timeless pattern underlying all versions of a universal transformative process. What intrigued me most about this book from the very beginning is that it is structured upon a pattern of framework that is at the very core of many ways of knowing this pattern is very evident in a glance at the table of contents. Each chapter takes us through a journey of awakening that leads to wholeness step by step. This is a pattern that also highlights the awareness of the responsibility that comes with having experienced it, which is to give back to others in whatever way we are best suited for. In my book, a new story of wholeness and experiential guide for connecting the human family coming out the middle of next month. I explore how this pattern can be seen as an avenue of transformation in various expressions from myth to mysticism to initial initiatory rights to psychology. So in mythology Joseph Campbell pulled together the archetypes of the world's myths to form the pattern consisting of departure, initiation, return. For example, Arnold van Gennep identified the pattern that all rights of passage follow as separation, transition and cooperation and mysticism. Evelyn underhill describes the mystic way as following a pattern that leads from awakening to purification to elimination to a dark night of the soul to union or living in harmony with the whole. In psychology, Carl Jung call this the individuation process, which consists of the conscious experience of the archetypes we are born with embedded in our unconscious, bubbling up from within, released by life experiences, making us aware of their innate existence and enabling the merging of opposites into a new whole. And this is a process involving the birth of the ego, the death of the ego and the birth of the whole self. All these variations of the same pattern emerged from the familiar storyline of beginning, middle and end. Yet, what they all represent on a deeper level is beginning model resolution, another variation of the same pattern. So we can really identify this, this rough outline of this ageless arc, this ages pattern as follows as as following three archetypes call to wholeness path to purification and the return to wholeness. And what's, what's, I could go through each of the motifs of each of those three major archetypes but what's really interesting about the book to is that contributes such a great deal to understanding how this pattern is expressed in the spiritual lives of the scientists and beyond. It also illustrates that science and spirituality are not only representations of this wholeness, but are also equal partners in this wholeness. So it conveys how the personal experience of wholeness heals the divide between science spirit and spirituality reason and faith separation and union. And we end up with a rich collection of unitive narratives that tell how we can experience wholeness when we are open to all aspects of reality. So I was thinking it would be really interesting if we can bring our guests back to see how this pattern may seem to fit their experience, whether they were aware of the pattern or not. And what deeper meaning and awareness of living a universal pattern may have given them. I'd love to hear that and I'll begin by, I appreciated the big picture of our of our evolutionary journey, the way you described it through all these different philosophical insights from Campbell and others. One of the interviewees in the book to Son of Dorje, she said all of us have what she called an I am instinct. And it's essentially an instinct deep in our consciousness to uncover who we are. What are we really fundamentally beyond our mind body existence as a human being which is, of course, utterly beautiful in and of itself. There's so much more to discover. And the final chapter as you all know of the book goes more deeply into these journeys across a number of different philosophies and meditations, cultures and so forth as a kind of a guide for people who are interested in pursuing more along this journey. Yeah, but Neil or Jude or, or Kurt comments on this idea of your own insights along these major passage points on the journey. One thing I wanted to say simply because it really illustrates then how this book arrived on our desk, and how we build it out when Deepak joined and Ken Wilbur joined and the other spotlighters joined and we expanded this and we're in contract actually with Paul for a second which will actually build the conversation out to physics cosmology economics evolution and all the other areas of science because we've seen that it's so rich. This quick comment I want to make is all of us here, you know, have been polymaths and being polymaths didn't make sense at a certain part of our career lives. We had a degree in this we had a degree in this we'd gone this we'd done this, and it didn't make sense at that time but what's so profoundly true now, and it was so, you know, illustrated by this book arriving on our desk is that these things now are just inevitably coming together and that's what really then also birth birth book so I thought I would just throw that inside and I'll be delighted to carry on from that I was just thinking the same thing Kurt, and it reminded me what Neil was saying you know you're saying that you did that and you did that and then you did that. My journey to has been a scenic route. You know, and it's I actually, I don't know if anyone else had I never saw a destination. Literally, it was just that sense of curiosity and and sort of going yes and just following and only was it. Oh I can't remember now Kurt you'll remember the philosopher that said, we live life forward and we understand it backwards. I know I'm sorry, but that's very much my sense of my own journey, you know I follow these very shopping hour. Thank you very, very, very scenic but when I look back I see that they've actually they've confluenced. You know many many tributaries was a river that's that's you know, take me to this point. And when I do look back when I do live my life now it is from that unitive embodiment. And yet the journey goes on. And I'm delighted and joyous that it is and it just feels to me that you know we have come here, all of us and shaman in everyone else to be in service I hope at this time to invite others into this await and to invite others into this grand adventure of the universe and the opportunity and the evolutionary impulse that it embodies, and that we can actually in a way step up to be its co evolutionary partners. Because I feel is our is our destiny. And as Neil you said, it's about for me it's about showing up to and getting out of the way. Thank you Jude. Beautiful. I didn't. So, since you mentioned the word complexity to the title of my new book is notes on complexity. And it's the first half is complexity theory and the sort of stuff I've talked about. And then the second half is consciousness and the Vienna circle and how they messed us up and how Kurt Google saved us blah blah blah. And I've been talking about this stuff for 20 years and on the way have gathered more parts of it because I speak about it and then people reflect it back at me and say oh have you thought about this etc. And for 20 years I thought maybe there's a book here maybe there's a book here. No, that would be beyond me to write. And then, in part thanks to covert unintended consequences. It seemed to be the moment to do it, and in doing so it's making me look back and go, you know there were times in my life when I was younger and I felt really lost in a lot of ways and going to medical school was a big part of that, because it was not the right place for me. I was thinking pragmatically that was a wrong turn. It worked out well finally in the end but. I look back and it's like. No, this all sort of makes sense now. All of that stuff wandering about. One of the things I use in the in my talks in the book is ants and they wander around until they happen to encounter other ants that have found things. They go into some food themselves and then suddenly things shift and things self organized and now there's a food line where there wasn't a few. And these kind of conversations are like ants wandering around and we discover each other, and a book like this is oh look there's a food line for me. And so there are those transformational moments I don't know the language of of either young or aging brain. There's nothing about Campbell. Well enough to put it in those forms but I get a sense of, Oh, this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. And it's not the first time it's happened in the universe, or on planet Earth, or within human minds and cultures, or within ourselves. And so I, my sense is that yeah those are the threads that come through here, whether we name them something or not yeah there's a truth I'm getting from what you're saying. That jives with how I'm now suddenly feeling it after, you know, in my seventh decade, so. Yeah, thanks, thanks Neil that's that's a really, I think a fairly common way of putting it even even with people who may not be familiar with the pattern. Once they do become familiar with it. They recognize, first of all that they're not alone that their experience is not solitary. They're, and in doing that they recognize that they're. They have expressed experience to what what Jung describes as archetypes bubbling up from the unconscious, which makes us even more aware that through our experiences like these that are all throughout the book. We recognize that we're more connected to the to the whole human family than we ever thought we were. I appreciate those final few points there because my hope is that by reading the different stories within the book, it will job memories and open up opportunities and also provide validation for the experiences of whoever is reading the book. Because all these things are natural within us, we have them we might discount them and then move back into the more dualistic perception. But when we can read about the experiences of others and we have a sense of validation, and then we can go more forward to embrace our own experiences and that's really fundamentally important part of the book as well. Thank you all for joining this launch I'm going to pass the baton back to you Kurt I know you've got some closing comments and thank you all for participating. Yeah, thanks so much Paul and actually because we're still within our time limit here. I'm actually going to pass it back to Paul just one more time, give him a chance to do just a bit of a wrap up, both in the sense of the the message and the, all of the data everything. What is that you'd really like to say about this book before we then close close out so Paul over to you. Thank you Kurt. There are quite a few messages in the book. And I think we've covered a number of them during this conversation. If I were to highlight what I would consider the most important message. The message is what I was just speaking to a bit. And that is, each of us as human beings, we have such a deeper identity than most of us are typically aware of. If we don't live from that more fundamental identity, then we live in a world of separation of me and you and us and then, and so forth. When we begin to embrace the journey of consciousness development of spiritual journey to really understand our true nature as people call it. Sometimes it's called the true self with a capital S. The prior perceptions of separation, begin to dissolve away naturally because now we've come back into lit residing in that more whole unit of nature of our existence, and everything changes from there. The nature of our life, certainly, meaning how we relate to others, how we relate to society at large, and we transform ourselves and the work we're doing regardless of whatever career we're engaged in. The book provides some insight and encouragement for everyone to embrace that journey if you're not already on it, or to continue it with enthusiasm and openheartedness if you're already on that journey. Thank you very much.