 Hello and welcome to Live at 525. I am Debbie Ingram, the executive director of Vermont Interfaith Action. And our show today is about faith and climate action. Now, Vermont Interfaith Action is a federation of over 70 member and affiliated congregations throughout the state of many different faith traditions. We work together to effect systemic change around issues of social justice. And we are new actually to the issue of climate change. But we are very excited to be doing some really important work, impactful work I think already. And some of our leaders are here with me today to have this conversation. So I'd like to ask them to introduce themselves. We'll start with Nancy. My name is Nancy McClellan and I belong to the first congregational church of Burlington. And I live in Colchester. I am Pastor Devin Thomas. I'm the serving minister at the Ascension Lutheran Church in South Burlington. It's a pleasure to be with you all. My name is Katherine Bach. I'm a member of the Burlington Friends Meeting. And I live in Burlington. Great. Thanks for being with me today. Now, we first started actually getting into climate action as an organization through an event that our Southeastern organizer held over in the Brattleboro area. And Bill McKibbin was one of the featured speakers. He's of course very well known in Vermont. And there was a panel of people who are active in that area. And so that sort of got us to dive in. And then the really important thing that we did just recently that all of you know about is we helped to co-sponsor a Faith Climate Action Day at the state house at the legislature. We had 35 clergy youth and faith leaders joined together at the end of February for this event. So Nancy, we'll start with you. What were some of the highlights for you of that day? Well, I think one of the gifts of living in Vermont is that we live in a very small state. And our legislature and legislators are very accessible. And so I was lucky to be able to set up meetings to meet with both of my representatives. And it was great. I had never met either one of them personally so I was able to present the bills that we would like them to support that work towards climate action and climate justice and had a very nice, had good conversation. And I had only asked for 10 minutes and with each one of them I think I spoke at least a half an hour. So it was a real, it was really a gift for me to be able to meet them face to face like that and for them to take the time to meet with me. So that was a highlight for me. Definitely. It's so nice in Vermont that we have such great access to our lawmakers. Absolutely. Yeah, sounds good. And Pastor Devin, I know you actually took a youth group to the state house. Could you say a little bit about what their experience was like? I think for them it was definitely an educational experience which sometimes can be a little hard to get your youth from church to take up that educational experience, especially when they have a week break, a week off. So we had a few folks who were sort of willing to gift us that time, some of our kids, and join us at the state house. And I feel for them it was a great opportunity to understand what it takes in order to speak up, to get engaged with legislatures at the state house, to really try to get people to pay attention to issues that are important to them. And climate action, especially for the young people at our church, is a very important issue. They're very much aware that the changes that we are seeing in our environment today are going to have an effect on them when it comes their turn to take the reins of society. And they understand that the current generation is not treating the environment appropriately. So this was an opportunity for them to sort of live into the things that we try to teach them at church and to see how that faith that we're trying to nurture can have a positive effect on the world that we live in. That sounds like a terrific experience. And what you mentioned also brings up the idea that it's really important to us at Varanar Faith Action that people find their voice and cling their voice in the public square. And that those of us who think of ourselves as just everyday folks can be kind of reluctant to speak up. But we certainly want to start people young in dispelling that myth and really encouraging them to be active in saying what they believe in and what they need from their lawmakers. Absolutely. Yeah, so that's great. Terrific. So now, Catherine, you have been doing work in this area on this issue for many years, I know. And you've been aware about the many different changes in the climate, like here in Vermont, the devastating floods that we had back in the summer and then we had another set of floods in December. We also have all noticed that we have warmer winters now and we seem to have more rain than snow. So can you tell us about some of the bills that we're particularly following in the legislature and what those would do to affect Vermont? Yes. First, I want to say that I've been a very annoying climate activist since I was 13 when I read Silent Spring and at that time I really loved birds and was quite a bird watcher and suddenly I was saying, okay, the grownups are going to kill all the birds and I got to do something and so I was, I'll admit that I've mellowed down a little bit but I've been at this for 62 years and haven't given up yet. So one bill that is really good is called the Climate Superfund Act and this would develop a fund that would access money from the polluters so basically the largest fossil fuel companies to help pay for the damages it's cost to the climate and this is a huge step towards holding big oil accountable. The second one is the RES, Renewable Energy Standards and this is a bill that's updated version of the 2015 RES that had a lot of loopholes, mostly that it didn't reduce carbon emissions that much and what this new one has done is to bring, make a pathway for us to get to 100% renewable energy and it's gone through a long complicated process trying to erode many voices to see how many factors as possible. So now it has reduced our care quality standards through the burning of biomass from electricity, take care of these requirements for renewable energy purchasing and production and it gives directions. I can't tell which one it is. On considering affordability, environmental justice, aesthetics and even how people are allowed to buy renewable energy credits. Yeah, those are some really important measures. That's the Green Book. Are these kind of like new ideas that Vermont has or have you heard? I'm sure you know about things that are going on in other states and across the country as well or these things that were leading the way on or following other places. Holding big oil accountable is something that's happening on a federal level. You can't hear me. It's not picking up very well. Let me just do that. There we go. You should keep talking. I didn't hear that first. That's right. The joys of television and occasional technical problems. Holding big oil. To hold those that are responsible for damages, holding them accountable for helping to pay for fixing them. Renewable energy standard, I think a lot of that is pretty much newer for Vermont. Other states are doing it, but we're trying to be first and best. And then we also have a rate payer protection bill that will help us transition and people of low income to be able to transition to renewable energy. And then a flood recover ominous bill. There are a lot of really good bills. Yeah, that's great. And I think that legislators are becoming more and more aware of needing to take urgent action. So that's good that they're responding well. I was also wondering if you might say a little bit more about helping make sure that lower income people aren't adversely affected. When I hear criticism of some of the things that are proposed, often I hear people say, oh, well, it'll drive, these measures will drive heating costs up, or they'll drive gasoline costs up, or they'll drive costs up and make it prohibitive for people of lower income. Do you have an opinion about that? Of course I do. So my experience, I lived in Sweden for 28 years and in Sweden there's almost no poverty and what they do is they make things affordable for everybody and they prioritize what they spend money on. So they don't spend a lot of money on their military and that gives them plenty of money to subsidize things like renewable energy so that everybody can afford it. As soon as you're making a special system just for poor people or low income people, you're stigmatizing them. But if it's affordable for everybody, you're taking a step towards not only reducing poverty but getting rid of the stigmatizing of it. That makes sense to me. I think it makes sense to a lot of people. So yeah, we'll keep getting that message out there and it's very important. And that is also in the conversations on the RES. There's a lot of discussion on affordability and then this rate payer protection bill helps. So it's really being discussed in the State House. So I'm really happy to see that happening. Yeah, that's great. That's terrific. Well, so I mentioned at the top of the show that this is kind of a new issue for us and we have been, for Modern Faith Action, focusing on other issues. And Nancy, you've been around now for a little while and have been working with the IA on other issues. So maybe you could say a little bit about what other things you've done and then why this particular issue is really important to you, too. Yes, I also have been working on the racial justice local, we call them local organizing ministries, and helped, oh, I stood out on Church Street and talked to people as they passed by to get them to sign a pledge card to support the amendment to abolish indentured servitude for payment of debts in the Vermont Constitution. So I did work on that and, of course, that did pass and has become now an amendment to the Constitution of Vermont. So that was a good experience. So I was involved that way. And then just as a person of faith, there are many verses in the Bible that address protection of the environment as the earth and all life on it are part of God's creation. And so I feel called to respect and steward God's gift and to encourage behavioral change, not only for my children and my grandchildren but for all future generations. And I think the moral and human implications of climate change need really to be addressed. And I think through our faith and through our church institutions is one of the ways that we can do that. You know, you've already addressed the idea that unfortunately the brunt of many of the disasters that have happened, the two 100 year floods that we just had in five months, drought, famine, heat waves, storms, all these things seem to affect, disproportionately, those who least can afford it. And so I think it's really important that we see this also as a justice, a social justice issue. And as you said, there are bills in the legislature to address this. The church I belong to, the First Congregational Church of Burlington, has formed a committee. And I'm one of the members of that committee and to address these different issues, not only to educate and raise awareness among our congregation, but also we have a very old building to start addressing, making that eco-friendly. And one of our other actions in this committee is to join other organizations. And VIA is one of those organizations. So when I saw, got the notice from VIA that there was this day at the state house, several of us on the committee drove down together to attend this because he thought it was an important thing again to make our voice heard and as people of faith to show that this is an important issue for us also. Great, thank you, thank you. And you remind me too that I should probably acknowledge our partners in setting up the Climate Action Day because we worked with Vermont Interfaith Power and Light and we worked with 350 VT and with VPurg on this. And yeah, we're very pleased to be able to broaden our issues and to be able to work on that. And that brings me, Pastor Devin, to the idea that VIA chooses our issues generally based on listening to congregation members and neighbors, friends in our communities and hearing from them what concerns them the most and what affects them directly. So what have you heard in your pastorate about how your congregants and committee members view this issue of climate change? Well, the folks at the Ascension Lutheran Church have been committed to climate advocacy for actually far longer than I've been with them. They've in particular been very concerned about the air and water quality that we have within the state and how that has an effect on the health of people within our community. But the church has also been heavily involved in trying to assist people who are struggling with poverty and homelessness and have recognized that climate action is intertwined with the crisis of homelessness and poverty that we are going through in the state right now. It's not just a matter of, well, it's warmer now and people are finding themselves on the street or whether we have to think about the systemic ways in which climate change has an effect on people who are low income or people who don't have a home. For instance, if you're looking for a home to buy here in the state, how more likely are you to find an affordable home in a place that's in a flood plain? Are you even going to know that? And so when we have things like the extreme flooding that we had over the last year, who are the people who are most hit by those catastrophes and who are the people who are going to, and very often the people who are hit are the people who have the least resources in order to rebuild? So it's important to look, as you said, at ways in which we can make a transition into a cleaner, more environmentally friendly but also a more, I feel, socially equitable and equal type of society where everybody has access to the type of resources that we need in order to build a life that can allow us to prosper and thrive and hopefully not have to annually clear out our homes because they've been flooded out. So I think that within the congregation, the community of congregations here in the Burlington area, you're definitely going to see a recognition that it is the most vulnerable among us who often are going to find themselves in the situation where they are affected by the extreme weather that we have. And so how do we transition in a way that is friendly to them? Again, I took the opportunity to also bring our kids to the Climate Action Day, and I think that for them that is more, there's more of an existential fear for what their lives are going to be going into the future. They don't have a full understanding of seeing the types of changes that we have over the years of what that's going to end up like when they are adults. And I think that having a resource in which you can sort of engage that and express that to the people who are in power is also very, very important. So I think that on a ground level, you are going to see people who are going to churches who are seeing, we're starting to see in our everyday lives what the effects of climate change in the Burlington area in Vermont. And people are coming to us asking us to take greater action to do something about it. And I think that as faith communities engage more with advocating for climate action, you're going to find a greater awareness of just how that affects everybody in our communities and how we really do need to live into that commandment, that call to put the last first and have the first go last. Thank you for that. Yes, very important ideas expressed in that. I appreciate it. And Katherine, your faith tradition is the Friends, right? And as we said, you've been involved in this for a very long time. How do you make that connection between your faith and this issue? Well, Quakers in general are called to live and write relationship with creation. And that includes people and everything. So they're recognizing that the entire world is interconnected and is a manifestation of God. So they try to integrate into their beliefs and their practices. The truth that God's creation is to be respected, protected, and held in reverence in its own right. And the truth that human aspirations for peace and justice depend on restoring the earth's ecological integrity. So it's like everything's connected. And although Quakers are known for their peace and justice work, it's clear from this statement I just read that nothing's more important than preserving a livable climate. So the issues that we've been talking about at the meeting have a lot to do with false solutions. And things like saying that burning biomass to make electricity and to make meal plant that's right near us is renewable and is OK. But you're burning the trees that could have sequestered carbon for years and years. And the bigger the trees are, the more carbon they sequester. You cut them down, make wood chips, and burn them, and it's gone. Plus burning wood emits more than any other fuel, even more than coal in terms of fine particulates that damage people's health. And guess who's downwind from the McNeil plant? The low-income people. So that would be a priority for the Burlington Friends meeting in that we're close to that. And it's both a false climate solution and has to do with equity and affordability. So all of these things that we hear about renewable, we have to think about renewable does that mean lower emissions? And it doesn't always. So it's important to remember that distinction and that the legislation comes from that. And I think they should stop using renewable because trees are renewable, they grow back. Trouble is it takes 50 years. And we're dumping the carbon into the air right now. Excellent point. Well, yeah, and you've all really kind of brought up the idea that there is this intersectionality between the different issues that we work on, the whole sense of justice, and so many of our issues disproportionately affect people who are already disproportionately affected by other aspects of injustice, right? And I saw that on a global scale as well. I lived for seven years in the country of Bangladesh. And Bangladesh is one of the places that they mention when they're analyzing who's going to be terribly, devastatingly affected by climate change. The whole country of 150 million people could be underwater. So we have this concept of climate refugees but what we need to make sure we don't do, though, is places like Bangladesh halfway around the world. It's also in central Vermont where we had the flooding and closer to home in Burlington. And there are a lot of people that are adversely affected by this. Do you think that the people who are making the decisions that people in power are getting this message? We're often called people of hope as well as people of faith. How do you feel the struggle is going? You're asking me? Sure, go ahead, Catherine. I think they're starting to listen to more voices but I think that the industry has too much of a voice and is not always... they're trying to get her into that space and speak and find a way to make it so your voice is heard above all others. One of the things that was educational for our kids going to the state house was seeing just how many lobbyists were there. And I think that the reality is for a lot of our legislators is that they are bombarded by many voices with many interests. And I don't know how many opportunities they have to get out and see for themselves what is happening. I think that we in faith communities have a ability to mobilize people to see things from the ground level and to catch our representatives' attention in a way that could move things in a good direction. I have hope for that. But I do think that in our state like many others you have to play politics in order to get things done and politics does not really always reflect the needs of everyday folks. So I think that's just a reality. And I think that having communities of faith can help bring a little bit of that desire for love to prevail to break the bubble and maybe change that reality in the state house a little bit more. Yeah, I want to thank you for that. And I do want to put in a little plug for Veronica, your faith action for VA and the way that we work because we do use community organizing methods which means that we try to draw out the voices of those who are directly affected by issues, people who are on the ground, people who may not think of themselves as powerful people, but when we all work together and build our numbers then we are more powerful. And particularly with regard to people who are in elected office they depend on our votes. So we're able to say we have some leverage with you because we can vote for you or vote for your opponents depending on how much you're paying attention to what we would like to see happen. So I would like to say to everybody at home if you are interested in becoming part of for Monitoring your Faith Action, we do have individual members as well. So please check out our website, viavt.org, and you can find out more about how that would work. Also if you are a member of a faith community and your faith community is not currently a member or affiliated with VIA, we would love to have that conversation and help you to move towards that as well. So thank you all so very much and I think this is a really important topic and I've certainly enjoyed the conversation. Can I say one more thing? Sure. Close this out. I think that there's an advantage in being from a faith community because the legislators feel sort of that they're not going to be yelled at, that we're going to be respectful. And you know. Yes, we do believe in trying to be kind and respectful as well. And I think that's a big advantage. I do see it with FCNL, the Friends Committee on National Legislation in Washington, how successful they are in their lobbying. Yeah, that's true. That's great. Thank you for that. And we'll leave it at that then. And thanks for watching.