 Ten years ago, meditation was not mainstream, meditation was weird, you couldn't talk about spiritual awakening without people thinking you were fucking crazy. What's it going to be like ten years from now and what role do you have in that becoming? What do you know that if the world knew you knew they would think you're fucking crazy? What ten years from now, you all know was so necessary for the integration? Boom what's up everyone, welcome to Simulation, I'm your host Alan Sokian. We are still at Consciousness Hacking's Awaken Future Summit. We are now going to be talking to Robin Arnaud. Hello. Hi. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Pleasure to be here. Thank you. Very pumped. You are the CEO of Andromeda Entertainment, which does video games for transformation. And go ahead and teach us about who you are and what you represent. Oh sure, who teach you about who I am and what I represent. Boy, that's a big one, I'll keep it straight. So I've been a video game designer for the last ten years or so. I've been deeply in the independent video games world, so I worked on the game Anti-Chamber, Stanley Parable as a sound designer, and what I loved about being a sound designer was we're visual thinkers, which means that musicians and sound designers can sneak right past the part of you that thinks and kind of grab you by the back of your mind. And I loved, back when I was doing sound design for video games, I loved how I could just warp a person's reality and help them feel different or more or whatever. So that was kind of the beginning of my career in experiences. And after my first oneness experience, a game design flashed into my head, which became sound self. And after years of developing sound self, I am meeting the most incredible people because you can feel very alone or I felt very alone for a long time, you know, making this piece of, this interactive experience that was designed directly to shift your state of consciousness. And I was surrounded by brilliant people. And I mean, the independent game scene is full of incredibly brilliant artists. I don't know if you're a gamer, but just like... Yeah, independent game scene is... It's on fire. It's been on fire for about a decade. And those are my friends, you know, so I've had the incredible privilege of being surrounded by a huge amount of artistic genius. And but I was trying to do something different, you know, I wasn't trying to tell a story. I wasn't trying to provoke an emotional response. I wasn't trying to stimulate any sort of mental response. I was trying to bypass all of that and help, use a video game to help a person feel what they are. And as I started doing that, at first feeling very alone, I started encountering more and more people thinking about not just game design, but music and art in general in this transformative way. I think many of us inspired by psychedelics, since here at the Wacom Future Summit. I think many of us inspired by meditation, which has downright become mainstream in the last 10 years. It wasn't 10 years ago. Think about that. And I was frustrated because I realized I needed a big brother. I needed a company that could help bring sound self to market, given that sound self was so different from what people expect from video games. It needed a very different treatment. And as with the origin story of so many companies, just that not being out there, there was an opportunity to step up and create it. And so I took a break from developing sound self for about a year to instead develop the business entity that could help projects like sound self get out into the market. So sound self's our second game. We were also working on a dance experience. That's our first game, which is audio trip. And we're working on finding the next tier of titles for us to work with to help flesh out the transformational experience market. Because once you've had an experience that shakes you out of your narrative, there's nothing like it. I don't see people wanting to go back to distraction experiences or what happened, even the most beautiful distraction experiences. Like you know this. Once you start meditating or taking psychedelics or so on, it is a spiritual path and you get onto the spiritual path. And I don't know anybody who gets onto that path and then gets bored of it, right? So I think that this is going to be a tremendously potent market. And we're just seeing the beginnings of it right now. Dan, I want you to speak to how when we are involved in a video game that there's so many pieces to the video game that we're typically not very aware of. And similar to when we dine at a restaurant and that we're not usually getting behind the eyes of the chef and the busser and the waiters and waitresses. Very intentionally. So the more that we can intentionally understand the puzzle pieces of the video game designers and developers, the audio engineers, all that type of stuff, the more we can potentially have a better understanding of exactly what the intention of even the game is. And so why don't you teach us about that first. There's so many cool things that you said and we'll try and break them down as you go. But that first part, your awareness has been expanded to the point where you know that with audio, you can potentially bypass some of the initial processing that we have when we're playing a game and you can transform people's state to speak to that a little bit. Sure. Let me find it. Musicians know this. Politicians know this. Anybody who, so we have a mind, of course, and can I just assume your audience understands the difference between who they are in the mind or should I explain that a little bit? Explain that a little bit. OK, so we have our mind which creates differences between things and says this is this and that is that and here's how I relate to this and here's how I relate to that and here's how these things relate to each other and creates these really beautiful, intricate maps. And so many of us are identified with the mind and we don't realize until our mind stops for a moment that that's not what we are, that we're something much, much bigger. I don't know to what degree that is cultural versus to what degree it's developmental, but it's there. What is that that you're referencing that's bigger than the mind? Oh man, you know, it has, well the mind is the thing that does the naming. So the thing that's bigger than the thing that does the naming can't be named, although we try to name it. Is that the unity or the God? God, source, unity, those are great names. I like silly names as well. I used to just call it Dr. Banana Hat because it's totally ridiculous. But it's just, you know, silence, or you can kind of describe these things, but you're not describing, there's the, I forget the neti neti meditation or not that, not that, not that, because of course as soon as you, ah, it's silence, but it's also the, you know, there's no, unfortunately I can't, there are people who do an incredible job pointing at the stillness, and sometimes I can do that, but most of the time not, so, but I can speak to, once we begin to recognize we're more than the mind, and recognize everyone else is more than the mind, then we realize we don't have to interface mind to mind anymore. How do we interface then? Soul to soul, or we just, I mean, even emotionally, when we're relating to one another on an emotional level, that transcends our words, you know. Through things like the eye gazing. Yeah, the things like eye gazing, we're just sharing presence with one another. Sharing presence without words. Yeah, without being, just being in silence with one another. Yeah, with another, yeah, yeah. Listening to music together, we get, we get taking on a journey together, as you and I did at Journey This Morning, there, East Forested. As a designer, if we think about how we relate to a person's mind, we're really limited in how we can affect them, and not only that, but we are necessarily interfacing with the gatekeeper to that person's experience. And there's some merit to that, because if I want to convince you of something, you can make an argument that it's ethical to go through the mind, because maybe it's not ethical for me to bypass your rational systems and just plant an idea emotionally, although there are people who can do that. But when you're trying to give somebody a transformative experience, the gatekeeper is a nuisance. And those of us working in media, in video games or music, the gatekeeper is, you know, if you're listening to a piece of music, I don't know, I can feel my gatekeeper on when a piece of music is playing. Sometimes, if I'm getting critical about a piece of music, or if I'm like, what did the music do? You know, it's just like, but that noise is not the thing that sweeps you up. And it's the same when you're watching a movie, playing a video game, listening, oh, here's a great example, like listening to, for those in your audience who are religious, or, you know, that's something we lose in the secular world, is the sermon. The sermon is spoken word that passes through, or around the mind, and into something about the soul that just recognizes what's being said. Yeah. Okay, okay. The word gatekeeper is so funny. Yeah, because it's almost as though the ability for us to work, build a stronger communion with the gatekeeper, a stronger relationship with it. Because we don't necessarily want a, potentially, a gatekeeper that is too vigilant, a gatekeeper that's too loose. Yeah, the gatekeeper serves a purpose. It serves a purpose for identifying what's salient and pursuing that, maybe. This is trust who not trusts. Trust, trust, not trust. There's so much, so many things here. But I want, you're starting to hint at this. How does one then figure out how to embed something like a music that can get passed like a sermon, like you said? Yeah. I'd love that question. I'll do my best to answer you. But to me, it's, so here's why I like working with artists. I like working with artists because artists, the good artists, are always creating from a place of inspiration. And if you ask them, what were you trying to do with this or that, you might be able to come up with an answer, but they're probably making it up. They're just moving through them. So there's a kind of divine inspiration that happens and moves through the skill of the artist to create something. So it's not created by the mind, although the mind can be enlisted as a servant in the creation of it. It's creating something like, we've noticed that 20 to 24-year-old males are looking for things that are like call of duty, but like this. And so we're going to create a, going from either market strategy or from science or from any of these things and coming down, like using the design process to answer a question instead of using the design process, divine process, did you hear me skip? Yeah. Using the design process to kind of work on an inquiry or something like that, there are very different ways of approaching things. I forget your question now. You described this as a channeling through one into the world versus a. Well, remind me of your question. The question is that there's potentially a process that has yet to be identified while that can do that whole bypass in Gatekeeper. Yeah, I remember that. OK, so it is, it's a subtle and kind of mysterious process, but I'll do my best to describe it. It has something to do with, so each of us in our core, as I meet you, as we meet each other through our eyes and through that, through our identities, and as I'm speaking to you, mind to mind, Gatekeeper to Gatekeeper, we're meeting the place where we're separate where we're different, which means that this is a really great and exciting place to communicate ideas, because when you feel the difference between ideas and you feel that tension that's exciting. But there's another way in, which is instead of, if I feel deep into myself and feel that which is channeling through, it's something that comes from a more universal place. And so there's a way that if I put my mental capacities in service to that or my skill in service to that, I'm executing something and creating something which is from a place that's more expansive and more wise than the mind is. That is more recognizable and more intimate, even. So one could say that there are the minds that are here together, and then there's the. I think mind is necessarily oppositional. Oh, is necessary? I think it is. I'm just, I'm just, I've not thought about that before, but that's just good. Yeah, yeah. But then there's all the potential of a deeper, from some sort of a spiritual, emotional, transcendent vibe between the, between people that if you can potentially relay a message from that area to the others, area like that. And for, well, while we're all habitually identified with the mind, what that means doing is attending to the mode of inspiration and serving that. And attending to intuition as it arises and serving that, especially when, I was about to say even when, but actually especially when it doesn't make sense and especially when you don't understand it. And then you've turned your mind into something that is in service of, I've run out of words, but in service of the mystery or in service of, of that which wants to happen, that can't be articulated with the limited mind, something like that. So then, okay, delivering music from soul to souls, yeah. Music or art or design, yeah, from soul to souls, that's good. Okay, so then teach us, so now this is what you're fascinated with. Yeah. And you're actually, so is this right that Andromeda Entertainment is making it easier for people to do this process? Well, we're a publishing company or an agency. So we're connecting with the artists that are working in this space and by this space, I mean transformative interactive art and connecting those into the emerging market for those experiences. So like Burning Man has been such a cultural sensation this last 20, 30 years and has had a huge impact on our culture and I see so many industries emerging that are inspired by Burning Man or by just this raw kind of sensational experience, sensational, sensational with the senses. So cannabis lounges, whatever the modern church is, whatever the place we come together to worship and be in and relate to spirit and community, whatever that is and that's something that's just kind of emerging. So whatever that is, I want to connect these artists, including myself with sound self, but not just me, to that and use these things together to kind of help it come into being. Okay, yes, yes. Okay, so walk us through examples of, even before we get to people that you engage with through Andromeda to do the next gen of interactive art for the soul to soul. Let's talk about sound self, let's talk about what you've built in this space. Yeah, great, thank you. Sound self came to me. I had my first oneness experience on LSD, which was a little bit of a shocker as it tends to be. So it's like, oh, I didn't know that. That's interesting. I don't know what to do with this information. I set the mind afterwards. But it was sometime after that, when I was just pondering a sort of game design space I'd been thinking about when my oneness experience came to me and I realized it didn't just happen. I'd kind of follow the path into it. And for me, that path had a lot to do with voice because I was on LSD, and I was in a space at Burning Man and began toning just to feel myself grounded. And as I began toning the music in that very moment filled with voices that happened to harmonize with my voice. And in that moment for the first time I felt with such clarity that I'm not just this voice or just this body. And I felt the sense of agency that I usually identify with and that seems to be kind of the core of causation in my being as just like one other thing that's happening. But that was a path that I kind of was led down or walked down. And that path could be, I could create a design, a system that would walk other people down that path. And for me it was voice. And so it is with sound self. Sound self starts with your voice. And you use your voice in long tones. Like, aw. As you tone just the world shifts and dance and moves around you, you feel it responding to you. And it starts harmonizing with you and as well it's flashing at you. So I'm giving you all these abstract geometries. So you can't, your mind has nothing to settle on. And you're constantly toning which slows your breathing down. And by the way everything, all my explanation for why it works are things that came years afterwards. Because it came to me as an inspiration, you know? That's just like this. Right, and so this is what I mean. Like the correct way it has to come from inspiration and then if you want to figure out, you can't start with why. Or I think it's that's the incorrect order of operations. It's to start from why and then build inspiration. You have to start with the inspiration and then you can figure out why later on. I think that's how good art is made. But I might be full of shit. So as you're doing that, as you're toning and the voice is in this really precious place where it's embodied and you feel it but it's also out here and you hear it. So it's already on the boundary between where you perceive self and other to be. And we see the world respond to our voice and with our voice all the time. So there's already something magic in voice. It's just we're so used to it that we don't pay attention to it. But once you change the context a little bit and overwhelm the senses, suddenly you notice something you didn't before. And in this iteration of the software you notice it in a way that that's not like, like a psychedelic can be. Like my psychedelic, the first one this experience was it was very much a revelation, wow. And then closing down and integration. This one's more, it's more subtle, you know? But it is authentically doing what Academy does or what LSD does or even what DMT does. Not in the same way. But it is bringing the mind into silence so that awareness can feel what it is. And through my long, I'm bringing my mind into silence. It's partly that and it's also partly the visual stimulation and it's also partly the. This is very important. You said that there's no, it's abstract. Totally abstract. Geometrical shapes which make it so that the mind can't say square, circle, triangle. I can't label it. Exactly. Because that's what mind does, mind labels. When you give the mind something, like it's faith in nothing you're to label and it's changing too fast to label. It's changing too fast. And so my, ah oh, my changes cause the abstract geometry to change as well. So then I'm, this game is played in a virtual. In a virtual reality. In a virtual reality space. And then available across. It will be, yeah. It'll be available on Oculus and on Vive and on PS4, PSVR. And we're working on other implementations of it. Because I think like these sorts of transformative technologies, the place to experience them is not going to be necessarily just in the living room. It's going to be in community together or in cannabis lounges or something, you know? The most magical places to experience these are. Then we can somehow build a ritual around them. So I'm thinking beyond sound self and into this as a whole genre. They're hungry for more than just like the casual engagement of a video game. They're hungry to be treated as ceremony. Which, and then what's the economic infrastructure of that ceremony look like? I don't know the answers. But I'm paying close attention. Okay, so then your career in the last 10 years of doing things like video game design and audio engineering is synthesizing its way into deeper spiritual practice. And you want to deliver the spiritual practice to others through the mediums which you've gained experience in your 10 years. And which are such a medium that already attract people like video games, like VR. Okay, and sound self was the first or was there one you said before? Sound self was my, is an experience I've been designing for eight years, but as a publisher in drama and entertainment, it's our second title. Is there a second title? Yeah. Okay, and the first title again was? It's called Audio Trip and it's a dance experience. Audio Trip dance experience, okay. Okay, and in this one they are an audio trip? Oh, an audio trip say, you dance, you move your body. It's less psychedelically inclined and it's more just about getting into your body and feeling alive and feeling in flow. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, just always. There's so many ways that video games can be used to bring people up to life. There's so many ways that we can like harmonize with the human experience to produce something that's really deep and really, it just helps us feel ourselves in a way that is just so much more present and so much more like, gosh, I don't even have the words for it, you know? I think the standard use of video games is to distract us or to entertain us and by entertain, I mean like help us not feel as much pain for the moment numb us a little bit, but it's just a tool. It doesn't have to be used that way. It can absolutely be used to help you feel more real. And film can too, social media. Film can too, social media can do, but God, social media has a long way to climb together. A long way to climb, yeah, yeah. Yeah, interesting, so the identifying, this is cool, identifying video games as a tool that can be used to do things like send a deep love ball into someone else's soul. That's really good way of putting it. Sounds awesome. Okay, so now, when are we thinking in a couple of months or so for SoundSelf? Yeah, before the end of the year. Okay, so before the end of the year and where can people stay up to date on what? You can check out our Facebook, which is, you just look up SoundSelf on Facebook. Look up SoundSelf on Facebook. On Instagram, if you follow Andromeda, I think Instagram is Enter Andromeda. Enter Andromeda on Instagram, okay. Oh, we're on Twitter, which is at SoundSelf, or I'm on Twitter, is that video dreaming, though I don't tweet very much anymore. At SoundSelf, on Twitter, and your video dreaming. Okay, so this is how people can keep in up to date with where you guys are at. The sounds, I want to do the, I want to do that. You can on Sunday, your listeners can't necessarily, maybe they can, but in a different context, but we're having a party on Sunday at the end of this, that I'd love for you to attend and get to try this experience. Thank you, thank you, nice. Yeah. Nice. So, okay, so now, where are we heading with the leveraging the medium for these spiritual love balls? What are, how, yeah, teach us about how we're gonna use video game and music to do this. And virtual reality. Mm-hmm. How we're going to use video games and music. It's, so with any of these things, the tool is there. I think this is true not only of any of the arts, but any place you have a skill or an expertise, if you redirect that skill or expertise towards mystery, then it suddenly becomes something sacred. And I've been, as a first time entrepreneur, I've been finding that to be the case with business. That's hugely. But with video games, honestly, all it is, is having a spiritual practice. And having your life be a spiritual practice. And like, I can't tell you what the techniques are. I mean, I could, but I don't think that's really, then you'll just learn how to make something that is like really the truest thing always comes from inside and from inside ourselves. And there might be something to learn by studying my work, but I really think that the truest thing is it comes from having a relationship with reality that is devotional. And having that be the totality of one's life. And if you're a video game designer, or if you're an artist, or if you're a musician, and that's the way you approach being alive, you'll channel. That's just what the creation process will be. It will be a channeling process. You won't always understand it. In fact, the moment you understand it is the moment you lost the edge. Which is fine, we need to do that to integrate. We need to channel for a little bit, then integrate. Then channel, then integrate. That's right, you can't be tripping all the time. People who are beyond certain stages of enlightenment don't necessarily hold jobs very well. But the point is if you live in a devotional manner, your work will become devotional. It almost can't not. But it requires so much bravery and the willingness just to, it's both easy and so difficult, right? And like you said, you have to do things like have the creative process be channeled through you and then find a way to take yourself from the edge, maybe do a little bit of integration of it, back to the edge. This is a very delicate process of edge work plus integration. Shadow work, integration, surrender, everything. So I'll speak about the artistic creation process. You think we're gonna experience all of this with video game music? With anything? Virtual reality, yeah. With absolutely anything that you have as a practice. And then anything created from that place is going to aid other people on their journey as well. We listened to East Forest this morning and that's music that is absolutely created from a devotional practice. And it helps you and it helps me touch something deep in ourselves and then touch the places we have resistance to that depth. So yeah, that's just what I say. It's like as soon as your labor and your creation becomes a devotional practice, it can't help but catch fire. It might not be in the way that your mind would want it to catch fire, but there's something that's trying to happen here and we don't understand it. And the push to the unboundless love, the push there that we're trying to understand. I don't know. It feels like that's kind of what's happening, the push towards unity and that. That seems to be something that's happening, yeah. But I'm not sure. I even think that whatever that which is trying to happen is, you know, this is just what it looks like to me, is unity is an aspect of that. But so is our separateness. Yeah, totally. And so is. Correct, yeah. It's an awakening in general. Maybe one can say that that's the core. Whatever the fuck it is, it's huge and it's powerful and we can't control it and it's smarter than us and it's wiser than us and it's more real than us and it moves through us and it speaks through us and if we resist it, we suffer and if we surrender to it, we come to life with each other in a way that's undescribable. And if we bring our work into harmony with it, then the meaning of work is different and the meaning of our output is different and we've gotten a little. This is fantastic though, this is too good though. It's so good. Yeah, the meaning of our output is different, our lives are different. This could be true if you're a banker, or an accountant, or a maid, or like it's not, in the arts it's very clear and very obvious because art that doesn't come from that place is ugly. And you can make a living as a banker without coming from, you know what I mean? But this thing that I'm saying is true of any practice. Yeah, of any practice. So that if we walk away from our most divine, actualized path, if we don't let it channel through us, then it can get sometimes ugly. But now, we could stay on that topic, that topic's so. Yeah, yeah. How does Andromeda Entertainment then work with all of these indie creators that you were talking about earlier in order to help them with this push towards that uni, towards whatever's coming through us in the video games, music. Sure, I don't think I can creatively coach people. I think for that part, I have to find the people who are already making something that's really in alignment with this. And then there's just an intuitive practice, an intuitive process of seeing like, how do we wanna work together? What's emerging around us that needs, like let's say you're an artist that I wanna work with. I'm aware of this opportunity, this opportunity, this opportunity, this distribution model, this thing that's coming up a few years because it's like, it's my job to stay zoomed out. And if you're an artist, it's your job to stay zoomed in. And so when we come together, and when we feel that alignment, then, well, practically speaking, there's funding, there's distribution through mainstream outlets like Steam or The Oculus Store and so on, but the place I'm most excited about are these emerging places. Like I was mentioning to you, Spas, cannabis lounges, psychedelic clinics. How do any of these technologies fit into the awakening that's happening? You know, we're here at the Awakened Future Summit, which is about psychedelics. There's a lot of psychedelic therapists here. And any of these things that can be a tool for somebody's psychedelic awakening, I wanna help make that happen. I mean, art is already, without labeling it as such, we already know that art has to play a role in psychedelic ceremony. This is why we have music. This is why we have beautiful settings and so on. So what does high tech art in that space do for the psychedelic phenomenon that's happening in America today? So these are some of the spaces that I see emerging. And for the moment, it's very exploratory, excuse me, explorative and experimental, you know. And your things zoomed out to be able to watch how these are popping up and then you help. And then connect this title in this way and this title in this way and these titles together in this way and how do we, you know. And you plug the indie artists through those channels and whatnot. Exactly. Okay, cool. Yeah, cool. And the artists- It's very early, it's very early days for this. I like how you also said that the artists that you work with have to have their own actualization, their own artistic edge that they're having channeled through them and that you can then work with them. Actually, I feel like that happens a lot of the time now as we're seeing kind of a play between a mentor and a mentee. It's actually a really important phenomenon for us to continue making a priority in our lives as a mentor phenomenon. So like one could talk to you about what their passion about where they could see you fit and then you could help. That whole process is so important. It catalyzes significant success in life, the phenomenon of Bloom 2 Sigma and stuff. So, okay. So now we have this era of VR and psychedelics and meditation. It's pretty exciting, right? It's pretty cool. It's a big part of the awakening, yeah. And we're the frogs of the frying pan, right? Always we're the frogs of the frying pan, but like 10 years ago, meditation was not mainstream. Meditation was weird. You couldn't talk about spiritual awakening without people thinking you were fucking crazy. What's it gonna be like 10 years from now? And what role do you have in that becoming? What do you know that if the world knew you knew they would think you're fucking crazy? That 10 years from now you'll know was so necessary for the integration. Sorry to interrupt. That's a huge part of what we also are very passionate about and trying to inspire other people to catch on like what do you know now that in 10 years people are gonna catch on to and that it'll be really important for the overall awakening and to try and manifest that not in 10 years, but in six months or a year. Yeah, yeah. Try and manifest that. Because I think all of these things that we're doing and I don't think we know here the connections that are necessary now, but like I'm working on this piece, you know, Adam Ghazali downstairs is working on this piece. And then somebody I don't know and don't know what they're doing is working on this piece and someone's working on this piece and they're all gonna come together in some way. And it's such a, it's such a, you know, like I just have to surrender to that process and keep my eyes open and try to be as humble as possible. Yes, yes. Yeah, especially when we see young people that are smarter than we are. Oh my God, they're so smart. They're so smart. Some of them are really smart. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, a couple of thoughts that I think we should talk about on the way out. One is, are we in a simulation? Oh yeah. Are we in a simulation? So this is a simulation podcast. I can give you a yes and I can give you a no and I'm trying to decide which to give you. Or both. Or both. Okay, so, God. I mean, okay, obviously, wait, not obviously. Actually, this is not obvious, but for anyone who's done like their work in psychedelics and meditation and so on, like this is just, it seems, we seem to understand this that, that which we think is real and that which we think we are is not, it's just like, it's just, you know, the Buddhist idea of like ripples on the surface of the water. It's there, but it's not, it's an illusion or it's a, it's just a piece of it or it's the, it's, I mean, I'm looking for the words. It's like, it's just not what it seems to be, you know? But it's not purposeless, you know? And it's not empty. And it's not, when I think of simul, okay, so here's my no. As like, when I think of simulation, simulations are always simulating something. They're always like a sort of low poly representation of something that is more real. Like a race car sim is like the simulation of driving a race car. I don't think this is a simulation of anything. I think this is something crucially important and magical and special that's happening here through us that we don't understand. But it's also not what it seems to be. Okay. And what is the most beautiful thing in the world? Oh, I have a step four year old, a step son. He's sometimes so annoying and total dick. And that moment in me, when my resistance to him gives way to something else. And I see the magic and I see the wisdom and I respect him as a being who is just as alive and tapped in or something, whatever, you know, just as blank as I am. And that moment going from fuck you, Jesus, to oh, to me, that's the most beautiful thing in the world. And there's so much everywhere in our world where we see conflict is like the first side of that, you know? Thanks for asking, that's a good question. It's a really good question. It's a good answer to be able to feel that and then be able to explain it, the transition that you feel and your feeling between those moments. And when I think he's a dick, I'm not thinking about the, but I'm gonna love him in a minute and see the beauty of this. I'm just thinking, you're a selfish little dick. That's part of it. I think people talk a lot about the political divide right now where everyone just thinks each other's such a dick and missing the point. And it's like, that's half the picture. Yeah, yeah. Robin, this has been a wonderful conversation. I've been enjoying it. Thank you so much for coming on the show and talking to us. Yeah, my pleasure. We're really looking forward to sound self. I want everyone to check out the links in the bio. Get checking, get more conversations rolling around our friends, families, coworkers, people online on social media, about what these things are like when we apply video games and music for transformation, VR for transformation. And check out the links below to consciousness and hacking, also to simulation, support the artists, organizations and entrepreneurs are on the world that you believe in. And go and build the future, everyone. Manifest your dreams into the world. Thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you soon. And please, I've got one more. Yes. Please be in touch if whatever you're manifesting the future is. If it's in the domain of what I've been speaking about, maybe we can manifest together. That's right. All the info is below to Robin's work. Check it out. Much love.