 All right, welcome everyone. Good morning or good evening depending on time zone You are here for the presentation about Crip Pet Adrian is already here Aron. We hope he will arrive soon. He's just right now at the main station So for the other half of the presentation, we hope he will arrive So let's just start Please have a small applause for Adrian. Thank you so yeah we are Aron and I were We are talking about Crip Pet Talk is called Crip Pet practice and theory So I will start with the first part about first of the pirate pet Then I will talk ending ending of an era Then getting started with Crip Pet where I describe how I Getting to know the Crip Pet and I'll start to work with it and then I will I'll talk a bit about migration strategy strategies So yeah, who am I? I'm Adrian computer science student here in Haalschule I'm part of the pirate party of Germany The beauty chairman for the pirate party Baden-Württemberg I'm one of the core administrators for the Bundes IT who run the whole infrastructure needed by the complete party and I'm kind of the lead of the LVBV IT so the IT of the pirate party Baden-Württemberg Then yeah, I've been Like seven years administrator in my school in lower Saxony where I come from originally I'm interested in systems engineering My political focus is on digitalization and education and I've been administrating stuff since I can think I guess so yeah Then getting started on the pirate pet. The pirate pet is one of the world's largest other pet and other pet pro instances We have like 350 gigabyte my school a database in the background of This pirate pet running so the link is pirate pet or the piraten pet pointy We have over 65 registered users currently at wasn't intended currently over 65,000 registered users at our other pet pro. So other pet pro is like a Team solution for where you get a team and put pets in there. So yeah pets Like text documents where you can edit with multiple persons decentralized on We have a total of 100 Oh, yeah, there was a total of over 100,000 users registered on this other pet pro But some accounts of art most of the accounts were deleted These users are organized into That's the current Yeah, that's the current number in 24,000 64 teams Which is a huge which is a huge number We have a total of yeah, you see the numbers there. They're just a half hour old. So you have 485,000 light pets and 328,000 pro pets Which is really one of the largest instances and also the depths of the other pet pro Which is discontinued or the depths of the other pet light said already that we are crazy to still maintain and run this With the thing because it's so a high workload on our infrastructure So yeah ending of an era talking about a high workload on our infrastructure The whole infrastructure is very expensive for us running these pets. We have Yeah, my share cluster with two two nodes running the stuff for redundancy back ups The database dies regularly because how the other pet stores Data is putting every keystroke the user makes inside and jason file and then Like putting a batch of 70 key presses inside one jason array and put it as one row inside our database so if you have hundreds of users Working on the same time on different pets. It just puts data into the database all the time and We have sometimes or like twice a week if the database if the database dies We have about 200 megabytes of my square a backlog. We have just to delete because we can't apply them so yeah Like I mentioned before the other pet pro is discontinued so more for some years now and We with our infrastructure structure, we cannot upgrade the other pet light other pet light is actively developed, but We are running a pretty old version and We can't update that because we have some custom changes to the other pet Stuff and it doesn't fit in we have to run old software versions and Yeah, the whole system is like a mess and the field of patches our engine xconfig looks horribly because we have to just Block links which can be used to exploit or download even the whole database So it's really a mess and we are very unhappy to have this stuff still running That was yeah The shutdown of the pirate pad is on the 16th of June. So in like a bit more than two weeks I have to under to just say shut down and it's finished Yeah, we are searching we We started to hold pirate pet stuff for our IT infrastructure or January for the party so we can work together on Press statements work together on the party program and stuff. So it was mainly it was Started at that, but it developed as yeah one a free instance You don't have to look in you can just type stuff in we had already the police Confiscating our servers Because people put stuff in there that didn't belong normally there. So yeah So we searched for a software which is actively developed and Which will not soon be discontinued like other pet pro is We have the need for a real-time collaboration, but this real-time collaboration you can say Just have only office or oh just said just have like a next cloud or just have like Google Docs, but we need low cost on operation and It should be data protection friendly. So maybe if Something illegal is stored on through the Or other pet stuff or on the pet stuff We can just say we don't know what's on our service. So you can't take them away Yeah, and one huge problem of our Pirate pet is that yeah the 350 gigabytes of database and like 20 or 30 gigabytes of logs We have around just from the last week so Yeah, it's we want to use the pads as a short-term use So you create a pad to work on something together and then afterwards export it to like our wiki or Export it to our red mine, which we use for tracking protocols of Of for tracking protocols. So Just for short-term use so the ability to simply delete To simply delete fights or pets from the server With the Jason stuff hanging around in the database with the other pets Yeah, we have like a timestamps when changes were made But because the changes were just put in together on one table row and merged So it isn't practical to delete old pads because there's To a risk is too high that something can break and One problem we have yeah, we have Sinking thinking a count of membership and with that some of our Administrators we had like for the mail service just died or overworked Yeah, one or two actually died Because of the stress and stuff but also our misery are currently like One person working for the working for the party is in is employed and Like me and another one another guy called Loki currently the core administrators and then Persons from one database specialist who does stuff For now and then so yeah easy to administrate and the possibility for like a new person Just here you have the Crip pad so Maintain it and it's not much Not a lot of work So yeah, yeah We thought about a lot of collaboration tools and we had really a big discussion also inside the party Hi Aaron Yeah, we just Short yeah The question was if there is a definition of short-term use definition of short-term use is really work on something And after that if there's not Like we defined for us 30 days after the last edit we think a pad is Not worked on so we delete we plan to delete it in the future, but it's currently not implemented But it has the possibility to do that So yeah, because of today data protection stuff We chose script pet to use just come to the front Yeah, we chose script pet and It has yes some other at once advances For us which we discuss discovered more lately after we installed it So yeah, when we got started I was fresh in the IT administration team was like a half year ago Yeah on the end of November. It was hey, we want to run Crip pet So that's your job. Just do it just do it and we talked about about that a lot and plan stuff and we had We had some points we wanted to have so Customization for our instance with our custom logo on it with our custom color scheme and stuff like that But also transparency we as the pirate party live transparency as every A session where we chairmen's talk about stuff the most part of it is publicly available So for that we already also said That's infrastructure. We want to make it public so everyone can see how we work and what we customized But we have also problem is we have encapsulated infrastructure, so how it's done and It's not just open FTP go on the server put the fights on and you're ready But you really have to operate completely on the server via SSH and VPN and stuff And we plan for the future to have similar deployments, but with a little conflict changes So we have Currently we have two instances running one for like the normal party member members or the public instance and one for our chairman of the of the whole of the party of Germany and which have custom setting is with other pet types available and other storage limit and things like that So Yeah, we Or I chose on that time to get with git the crypt pet stuff is inside a git repository And I said yeah, just fork it put our custom changes inside git and git keeps track of everything And it works till now it works very very well So like Friday I debugged stuff and it helped me a lot to find a bug I put in because of our customizations So yeah deployment and updates deployment is as easy as install no JS install NPM install Bauer then install in our case install engine X for putting the certificates around and adding some other stuff which might be helpful for the future and Just get git first time set up git clone at the systemd config file and you're good to go Update process is as easy as git fetch get check out the specific as specific branch for me is p-pad to a p-pad underscore version number and then git pile and Yeah, we suck grip pad and update Update is made. I prepare the updates on My look on my PC at home put it on to git and then just check out and pull and update made Yeah, one huge problem. We have a we had around in Yeah, one huge problem. We had in our party was oh no You shut down the grip at other pads, but we don't why we want to use a keep keep using it and now It's horrible and it's strange and we have stuff So yeah, the one thing is at the pet teams like we have one team for the press of the whole party We have one team for the public relationship of law party. We have one team for the press of one wooden back we have Many teams around and it's easy to because of the right management You have a team say these persons are allowed to or may get into the team and see all pads You don't have to share passwords and stuff like that With grip pad grip pad has shared folders. So you just create a shared folder share that link to the persons who may enter this team and It's fine then speaking links They don't or we don't have and stuff like speaking links. So it's like peep at pirate pet point a slash p slash like Yeah, like is speaking link, yeah We don't have this with grip pad because there's a key transmitted in the URL So we don't have that but currently we're creating like a short short link service for Pets that should be publicly available To use or which Change regularities like the protocols of the chairman sessions where we talk about stuff Which is every two weeks and currently it's opening the word press opening our word press current link to the protocol change it and Yeah But with that with the short link stuff It will be possible to have like a speaking link for persons. We say they may use it and Yeah Yeah without breaking the security and privacy aspects of grip pad and then automatic exports We have currently some guys around With which Like the other pad has like an API or an export feature with a link where you can get the content of the pad as in text file and we have guys around which do oh like if the protocol is finished Open the script enter the link and it's put on the forum on the wiki and everywhere published We don't have the possibility to to do that currently but Yeah, I will talk about that later on Then for the migration strategies for the content We have or we had persons asking us. Yeah, if I change to the grip pad How is it? Yeah, I want to keep stuff. Yeah, we said we want to use the grip pad as an Yes, and to to just work on it and delete it afterwards But for the stuff which is currently working on like I noted our press really likes our other pet and I think they will Just change on or just say yeah, please re-enable the pilot pad. We want to export stuff. I Yeah, I guess but It's just for this stuff. You're currently working on download it from the other pet and import it into the grip pad grip pad has the possibility to do so and Yeah Yeah So part two so This year's error Glad I actually made it here in time. I don't know if you told the story I missed a train this morning and so I just arrived here Yeah, so Okay, cool that helps Okay, so yeah, normally I'm a little bit nervous to Talk in front of everybody but today. I was just nervous about arriving on time So now I guess I can I can relax now that I'm actually here so Yeah, I guess I want to not focus too much on the the technical aspects and mostly talk about Why we why we work on grip pad who we are? Yeah, I guess it's on the slides or who we are the development team Why we want to do this where our funding comes from because I Think that's super important for cryptography projects to talk about because if you're not selling people's data then Either you don't make money and the project dies or you rely on volunteer work and I guess etherpad was hoping to do that model for a long time and Well, they're they're gone now, right? So at least for the pirate party And yeah, then getting into our upcoming features Um So who am I I'm Aaron McSween. I'm known online as answers I'm from Canada and I moved to France to work on crypt pad And yeah, basically I I think of myself as a privacy engineer, which is kind of a newish term and Basically the idea is a database engineer optimizes for For data fast databases and a privacy engineer optimizes for for privacy and a part of that is getting to know the community and What what they expect so if you if you just look at the The content and encrypt it Maybe people are expecting to hide the metadata as well and maybe they don't You can do different techniques and Maybe they'll be really expensive and so slow that you can't actually deploy it in in practice So knowing knowing the audience is is a big part of what we do So I said I I moved here from Canada and I moved here to work for a company called x wiki sas Based in in Paris, France and basically what what x wiki does is knowledge management. It's a Java big Java platform that has extensions and it's used by I Guess big and small companies to to handle their their information Amazon uses it internally for for their knowledge management solution. So that's that's all open source and basically The company has been in business for 15 years doing knowledge management, but Caring about giving back to the the ecosystem. It's not really this This audience I guess so I'm not I'm not going to try and pitch x wiki, but But basically we care about open source and sustainability because we've been in business for 15 years We've never accepted venture capital or anything like that so it's all basically client project sponsored development and That sort of thing so my role is the project lead I started what December 2015 and I was just a lowly developer at the time and The guy who started the project Caleb Caleb Delisle He left the company last August and I stepped into to lead things And right now we're a two-person development team so I'm doing crypto and server-side stuff and my colleague Yellen is doing most of the client-side stuff, which is actually The bigger part of the job and I'll get into that maybe So yeah, why am why am I motivated to work on this sort of stuff? Basically I got interested in cryptography and decentralized technologies and things like that I would say With the Arab Spring when When the government went and shut off the internet in in Egypt and and other places and I really wanted to know why Why is it that somebody can flip a switch and basically turn off a society? and Cryptpad is still centralized so we can I can flip a switch and turn crypto for everybody, but I think we need to do the The basic steps of getting the the platform, right? And then once we know how to make it usable and people want it then we can do better steps to Make it decentralized and federated things like that, which is as it turns out really hard But I think doable we can work towards it Yeah, so I'm part of the crowd that that says crypto means cryptography and not cryptocurrency and Yeah, basically if my point of view is that if I can Make this my full-time job and and get paid to do it then I can I can work full-time building stuff that I believe in and I think I'm more effective that way if I'm not worried about where is my next paycheck coming from like how am I going to live I Can have a basic level of security and and then I can focus on Building stuff that that I think should exist Yeah, so X wiki. I went over it a bit already, but yeah, we have a branch in Romania as well It's about 40 people. Yeah, I'm a little flustered. So I did all this out of order. I guess Totally out of order. There we go Okay, so why why does X wiki want to work on cryptpad? Why are they making it happen? so We got our first bit of funding as a part of a French research project called open pass and G and basically we were responsible for Building real-time editors and Yeah, that was the French government wanted it because they're worried that all of their information is going towards the American cloud basically and X wiki wanted it because it makes us competitive So if you look at our competitors competitors, which is like confluence and I guess some other people they're all doing real-time stuff We wanted to do it and basically appeared to pure way because then you you scale better So by doing most of the work on the client and not on the server as either pad does You You can get you can support a lot more users So as it turns out cryptography is basically the easy part. So if you have pure-to-peer Algorithm like that's that's pretty tough. But then you just need to put a layer of encryption before you send the message to anyone else and Layer of decryption before you receive it and then you basically have an encrypted editor Which is pretty neat and X wiki likes this because I go and I talk to a very different audience Then they would normally talk to and that's that's good PR. So That's how we basically turn research into something. That's good for the company and our our business model is I Mean I just want crypt pad to keep going. It's okay with me if we sort of break even So we just want to pay salaries and keep the work advancing So we we rely on French and EU funding we just received Some some big grants a big grant and we're hoping on another one and We do subscriptions and donations to cover the rest so basically we treat it like a public good and We try to respect our audience our users and listen to their needs and Make it so that Everybody wants the project to keep going Right now as I said, we're two people and we can't really hire if we don't have a little visibility Into the future because we hire somebody and then we'll just have to let them go So we're staying at two, but if we can get more grants then that lets us expand and do more things So basically my goal is to raise raise everybody's expectations on privacy and when I said about the The Arab Spring why why is it possible that somebody can flip the switch and all these people are disconnected? I would like that everybody sees Something like Google Docs and says, okay, why why is it that they can read my my documents? Why why is that okay? and even if it's not crypt pad that is The product that is eventually adopted and kills Google Docs as I as I hope happens I just want it to exist so that so that I can have it because it's yeah, I don't like Google and As the slide says make it like make life difficult for surveillance capitalists So if all the people that are making lots of money by spying on people, I think they should be I Don't want to say homeless, but Yeah, I don't know they should lose their current jobs maybe Work on privacy. So where we are now I said I didn't want to do this too technical, but basically crypt pad is just there's the server which Receives messages from people and forwards them. So it's not unlike a NIRC server you join a channel you send a message and everybody who cares about that content receives it The server doesn't care about the encryption. It just Sends messages and it's the client's responsibility to encrypt it and decrypt it The database is just append only logs. So every time a message comes in it just gets written down and Again, this simplifies the server's role. It makes us scale a whole lot better the client has a consensus layer, which is what What allows you to edit in real time and two people can make changes that at once and it Resolves itself in theory every now and then we have some bugs, but It settles down eventually and Yeah, the result is basically a thick client setup where all of the logic is done in the browser almost all the logic So applications maybe Who here actually knows crypt pad already? Okay. Yeah, so almost everybody. I don't know Yeah, I miss some hands maybe but yeah, so I'll just I'll skip past this we do a lot of different apps and it's all basically we take an open source Client something like etherpad or sorry not etherpad CK editor for our rich text editor and we just bind it to our real-time consensus system. So we Capitalize a lot off of existing open source libraries and maybe capitalizes in the right word, but we benefit from it And it lets us focus on building the privacy parts These are the mature enhancements that we've built so far I think I would consider them mature because Yeah, very few of the bugs that we fix are related to this. So Crip Drive, which is basically It's it's a document itself. So you can edit pads in real time and your User all your user information is just a different kind of document rendered in a Special way and that yeah, that was kind of the easiest way to implement accounts We use script which derives a it takes a password and it derives your keys Which lets you unlock your your drive? And that's again pretty simple. We did some fixes to it Recently which lets you change your password because before it would just you your password was fixed at what it was so that was a bit tricky, but Yeah, you have public keys which act as your identity. So when you log in the server this confuses a lot of people But the server doesn't actually know your username or your password It's just it sees your keys So every now and then somebody forgets their password and emails us and Asks us to recover their account and they say that here's here's my username And I have the very difficult job of writing them an email Explaining that no their data is gone That's I'm laughing about it now, but I think that's the the hardest part of my job and Yeah, so rich. Yeah any sort of media basically that's just Images videos we do static uploads So that's the main part of cryptpad that isn't real-time and That's just we embed the keys and the location of a blob on the server into other documents and it loads it up and then Yeah, these basic server side APIs for relaying messages. We just reuse that for displaying cursors recently and for Chat we've had that for a while, but it's all the server side stuff changes very rarely and Most of it is in the client. So These are little things that we've like people have asked for them over time expiration Of course with GDPR you need to be able to delete people's data Which is tricky because if you don't know who's it is or what it is Knowing who should be able to delete it is kind of tricky so that we bind documents to a public key and that Yeah, it's it's hard with old documents, but yeah password protection is just we hash Yeah, you need the password to get the actual location And encryption key because you have a seed and you combine that with a with the password and so The server is not protecting documents is Which allows you to brute force it if you want to just guess passwords all day But it adds an extra layer of security so that if you're transferring a link over Facebook as unfortunately many people do They can see the the seed and not Facebook still won't have the password and thus the keys for the document and shared folders again the same as the drive that is just a different kind of document so With a special way to render it So the hard part As I said people send their keys over over Facebook or other things and we can kind of see this in our refer logs So we I mean we do we do watch some things we see how people are using prep head And it's mostly at the HTTP layer. So we see refers we see generally what country people are coming from Unless they're using tor so use tor we try to support it and Yeah, when you're transferring keys outside of outside of the platform over a second band It's tricky because you can't know who has access to a document and so if you want to revoke access one thing we could do is Change the the encryption keys change to the location and email not email message all the Users the new location, but if you don't know who has been viewing it. You can't actually update that so Lack of oversight is really difficult and and as I said people forget their passwords. So Don't forget your password Yeah, so we have 250 instances of prep head public instances that that we know of and We could view this as as competition, but this is why I think it's important to come and talk to All of you and explain my motivations that I just want this stuff to exist So if there's other instances that means that if I decide to turn evil one day, I can't really I Can't sabotage the pirate party too much. Maybe I could put in a backdoor or something, but This is why it's good to have more eyes on the code more people looking at it And I hope you review the diffs and especially maybe look at the years crypto. I don't know Yeah, so we added added an admin panel to try to make Adrian's job easier And and other people's we'd like to expand that functionality, but right now it's very basic We added I call it encrypted mailboxes. It's not email It's just the ability to leave a message for somebody and it's encrypted and it Prevents anyone else from reading it. So that's just using some public key crypto and the existing append only log system This ties into a notification system, which is just you I So people see when somebody has sent them a friend request or something like that and on that note better better social integration So friends and the ability to just send access Through through the system and not have to leave it and go to Facebook When Facebook and Google do this they do it as a means of better capturing revenue and I just I Don't care if you're using our instance or the pirate parties or whoever. I just just don't send it over Facebook Yeah, so our immediate roadmap is basically basically going to be Dedicated to making all of these problems simpler to solve 10 minutes left. Okay. Thank you So mutable metadata will allow us to Change who owns a document as I said, there's an ownership system that lets you delete things and right now you can't You can't give a document to somebody else and that's mostly a It's it should be a pretty simple system to a simple problem to solve, but it takes some work Especially to be backwards compatible So the idea is I guess if you have a different chairman down the road for or chair chair woman chair person for your For the pirate party, you should probably be able to hand over access to certain things to other people so that if they Yeah, they you don't want them to delete the old documents As I said integrated key delivery Teams as a first-class concept. So we started with this idea of The document is the central thing and your user account is just a document but we want to build around this social idea and Delegated ownership. I already said that going way out of order We as I said, we've applied for another research grant and basically the point of this is to take all the interesting things in Crip pad and Break them out into components that can be easily reused by other platforms and basically the idea is to To make it so that all of our work is not wasted that it's not all bundled up in one Monolithic platform and it also makes it'll make it easier for us to modify the platform I think and also for the pirate party and others to customize their instance if they want to just disable a module Maybe they just comment it out and it should just work in theory That'll come along with the desktop and mobile and command line applications which As Adrian said, there's no script to just get the documents So that would be nice to have and In theory not that hard if we can just make it run outside of the browser There's still some browser APIs we depend on office support a bunch of stuff Password recovery by breaking up your password and giving it to friends There's very simple and old Cryptography for doing that and it's mostly I think a UI problem, which is not to say it's an easy one, but Yeah Most of you already know where it is and there's the code and Yeah, I just want to thank nl net who recently gave us 50,000 euros to develop all this team stuff C3 Vienna Is that Ludo who's Ludo hello, they just donated 500 euros somebody else from a security company I have their Twitter there donated 500 and Monthly contributors on our open collective which is open collect open collective comm slash crypt pad There's some people giving 50 euros a month and that adds up to basically the same amount that C3 is giving us which is really cool And that's how you can get involved. I don't think we need German translations because you're you're all awesome at Keeping it up to date But maybe maybe Adrian wants the help. I don't know And Yeah, you can contact us. So there's time left for questions All right, thank you. I am actually I'm very grateful that you intend to continue this service so I can still plan my birthday parties Okay, we have 10 minutes left for questions. I see one Yeah, we never know what people are using crypt pad force birthday party planning cool Yeah, hi, I'm also a member of the pirate party. I have three questions. The first one is the client side performance Even if group pad is idling it's using a lot of CPU power and the fan of my notebook turns on Do you have any? improvements coming there and the other question is is do you have any? improvements coming for the colorful highlighting of authors we talked about this yesterday I Asked autopilot auto pirates if they also have some complaints and they also Mentioned the export function To get it into the wiki automatically and do you have anything they have to come Adrian mentioned it when you weren't here yet That you would talk about that Right. So I have a terrible memory. So I'll try to keep those three questions in mind What so I'll start with number two the coloring that's kind of an easy thing in Etherpad because the server knows everything and it can take the whole history And and then that's that's how it's how it's done by the ether pet It's yeah, you have every keystroke and you have matched to the keystroke who did it So it just getting all the keystrokes as if you open an ether pet It's getting all the database getting the keystrokes and reassemble the file and with that the ether pet colorizes the stuff so yeah, so so for cryptpad we kind of need to do a parallel system of Here's the thing that keeps track of the What the content is and then you need a second system which keeps track of what parts of that content belong to whom and We were talking about this yesterday basically What is it required for it? Do you need cryptographic proof of this person wrote this section or do you need it just for Usability it makes it easier to read and depending on the use case It can be very easy or very hard But in either case because the work is being done client side it can be significantly heavier For the for the client which takes me to question one which is performance or was that number three? Okay, yeah, so I think I would need to see I Mean my my fan doesn't spin so I would need I would need to see why your fan is spinning And then maybe I can I can answer that better So yeah, maybe we can take a look at it It's question three. I forget. Yeah, I tried Export yeah Maybe it's already there not from the command line, but if you go to your settings page There's a way to export your full drive and we could I mean that's I guess not what you want, but we could make it able to export either a subset of the drive or a shared folder or something like that and I guess the Are you going to your settings? Yeah? No, you have yeah export you have oh, yeah, you can export the pad But again, this is not from the command line So that if we get this other research project that is all about breaking things down into parts Then it will be very easy to just use this stuff from the command line right now We kind of built everything just to run in the browser and that sucks. Yeah, but Anyone else So hi One question as you are working with xx wiki So crypt pad is somehow integrated into x wiki so you can just click on edit and then edit the wiki page It's We have So x wiki is extensible and there's an extension which handles Real-time stuff and it's the same client sidecode but without the encryption It doesn't it's not crypt pad embedded in x wiki or the two talking to each other It's okay There's a different question Is there a some API or some means to integrate crypt pad into existing wiki engine that is not x wiki? Maybe an iframe Yeah, iframes are pretty cool We I don't know we could talk more about what what sort of integration you're looking for I guess Right, I think if if we had those better command line tools I mean, it's it's node like we build everything in JavaScript So anything that could call a script could get the content and then maybe that would be okay if you want your Existing server to be able to read the encrypted documents and pull them in if that's what you mean then Yeah But yeah, we could talk more about what what that would look like for you Anyone else I don't see. Yeah, okay. There are no further questions. I still have one I've seen your your crypt had pet dot fr. So it's in cooperation with French people I wonder do do you know about the organization they call from our soft? Yes So are you working together with them because they also they serve like other pads and yeah cheats like same functionality I've met I guess the person who started it and I mean we end up at a lot of the same conferences. So we Sort of know each other. We're not actively working together. We've talked about kind of what would it like I Mean the thing is where we're both open source projects So we both know like their code is available if we want to use it our code is that available if they want to use it We're not planning any serious integration, but I think we have a lot of the same goals in mind just self-hosting and making it easier for people but No explicit plans So any more questions, I don't think so then once again, thank you very much. Thank you