 Good morning, everyone. My name is Ken Pepple. I'm CTO with Selenia, and I'll be our moderator today for our panel. Everything got very bright. Today, we're gonna be talking an OpenStack panel here with analysts, both from the region and worldwide, and we'll be getting their feedback on OpenStack from their point of view. From left to right, I have Matthew Chung from Gartner. Next to him is Agatha Poon from 451 Research. Next to her is Asumi Miki at AtSign IT. Next to Miki-san is Sean Michael Kerner from E-Week. And then finally, Frederique Lardinois from TechCrunch. So we'll have a short number of predefined questions. We'll be getting their opinions on, and then at the end, we'll open it up from questions for the audience. So to get started, our first question is, OpenStack is big in Asia. Why? And I'll start with ladies first with Agatha. Testing. So, yeah, because part of my core coverage is Asia Pacific, so I'm very, you know, exciting to talk about Asia. So OpenStack, why is big in Asia? I think the short answer, or more generic answer, is number one. Typically, people think about Asia is, you know, there's very diverse, a lot of pocket of opportunities and, you know, infrastructures is quite different, you know, from country to countries. So, but there's still a lot of, sort of like, not too much legacy infrastructures. So when you are under that environment, it's much easier to, you know, to adopt, you know, new technologies, new infrastructures. So that's one reason. And the other reason is, if you look at, you know, Asia in general, especially lots of emerging markets, you see a lot of young talent. So young talents are much easier to be open-minded and to, you know, kind of evaluate different options and technologies. So that's also helped to really, you know, drive the interest and adoptions of OpenStack in Asia Pacific. And I think, last but not least, what I see is, in Asia, we do have a very large user base and for the user for OpenStack. So when you have technologies and new infrastructures, idea model like that, you need a very riband and robust ecosystem to really drive, you know, the technologies moving forward. So that's, you know, probably, what I think is the reason why we see a lot of excitement and adoption and trial and POC and even production, you know, implementation in Asia Pacific. I really resonate what I said about young people. You know, I think that a whole movement around the cloud is really sort of transforming the landscape of Japanese IT. But what's notable with OpenStack is really that it really gives opportunity for younger IT engineers to really sort of, you know, get their ability sort of, sort of appeal to the world, actually. You know, IT industry in Japan has been considered a very sort of good, vibrant industry. But at the same time, IT industries, IT engineers' jobs have been generally considered dirty work. I mean, you know, requiring a lot of long hours of work, sleepless nights, changing customers' requirements, you know, lower side than the job they're doing. So it's kind of a suffocating work environment for many IT engineers in Japan. But OpenStack really gives the opportunity for them to really sort of get liberated and express themselves in various ways. Excellent. Matthew? Yes. I come from Singapore, so I represent Asia Pacific, I think. And yeah, when I look at, you know, open source, general, you know, open source initiative across Asia Pacific, and then I can see, you know, actually the open source penetration is quite high when compared to, you know, other parts of the world in Asia Pacific. So when you look at, you know, that kind of penetration, why this is happening in Asia Pacific, especially because these governments, you know, the Chinese governments, Indian governments, you know, they are putting a lot of resources, investments in open source development. And one of the key concerns is the national security here because, you know, open source being more, you know, open and then being more, you know, transparent in terms of the source codes. So government can look into the, you know, source codes and then they know, you know, whether there would be, you know, any backdoor or, you know, those kind of things. And then this is, you know, high level trends, right? But for OpenStack specifically, I think it is more to deal with the digital transformation in the region and we can see actually, you know, the enterprises, traditional enterprises, they need to transform from, you know, traditional, you know, maybe, you know, some verticals, but they need to transform into e-commerce or, you know, digital business, they can, you know, combine with IoT technologies to do some new business. And OpenStack actually give them a very good platform to develop their capabilities. So I think that is the key for, you know, for OpenStack adoption. Excellent, excellent. I'll just give a couple of quick points and then we'll go to the next. Historically, Japan and the Asia pack has always been a very strong Linux base. I've been writing on Linux for a long time and Japan was always, when my stories were translated, Japanese, that was always exciting for me since I don't read very well. But that's okay. So OpenStack and cloud specifically, but more OpenStack is a natural evolution from Linux because all OpenStack clouds run on Linux except for the two or three that run on Solaris but we won't talk about those. And then the other obvious thing is space and density, which is what cloud is about in North America. There's probably a little bit more space or maybe not. I don't know. I'm in Canada so we're mostly open space. So if we're not going to build a hockey rink, we're going to build a data center. In other places, you want to get as much as you can out of every piece of every square foot and cloud, specifically OpenStack now. And then when we're talking about containers, which I know is a future question here, the density question is answered and that's why it's popular in Asia and around the world. I'm in Oregon where we also have a lot of space for data centers apparently. So maybe density is not an issue there. Obviously, I know very, very little about the Asia Pacific market but I've talked to a few people, including I think your CEO. And I may just kick this back to you guys over there because one of the opinions I've heard there is that, especially in Japan, the adoption is somewhat behind the US by a year or two because there's been some resistance to open source to some degree. It's an opinion I've been hearing and maybe one of you can take that. I don't think that there's resistance to open source per se. It's really that many organizations are not accustomed to open source but nevertheless, as he said, there are lots and lots of Linux adopters in Japan in typical enterprises. So it's really not the resistance to open source. It's really finding the right use cases for them. The typical Japanese organizations tend to be smaller in sizes in IT. Knowing that OpenStack really shines when you deploy it in a large environment. Well, you know, many people are seriously sort of searching for a good way to exploit the power of OpenStack. Excellent. So Frederick, do you feel that OpenStack has hit the tipping point yet? It's a tough question, right? But I feel we're getting there. I've been in this business for about a year now since the Paris summit and I've seen quite a shift from massive skepticism just a year ago to real user use cases and real production use cases in the last year, which is something we just didn't see a year ago. So I feel we're close to the tipping point. I'm not sure we're at the tipping point, but I think we're quite, quite close. I'll split the question into two parts. On the public cloud, not even close, not by a long shot, not for years, maybe ever. And the reason for that is because Amazon's margins are ridiculously thin. They have a CEO that doesn't care about margins and they can out-priced and out-compete anyone on the planet, period, full stop. They have 25% of margin, operating margin. And they can grow, but he can squeeze it down. So he's had slow margins and he's had wide margins. He doesn't care because he doesn't, so he doesn't, when people ask him about margins, you've been on the same calls, I have probably, he doesn't care, right? So, but it can grow and it can contract. That's why they keep doing the price cuts. But regardless, so on the public that's fine and then people keep getting out of the public. On the private, it's actually really a simple question because I'll ask the question to the audience. Aside from OpenStack, what other private cloud solution is there? Right? So it's a foregone conclusion at this point because OpenStack is all things to all people. It's an integration platform where everyone plugs into it. VMware, which should be the natural organic competitor, nope, they plug in, they have VMware integrated OpenStack. Eucalyptus, where are they gone? History. CloudStack, where are they gone? History. Who else has left Azure? That's only mostly public, private kind of sort of maybe. So on the private side, it's not even a question of tipping point. There is nothing else. On public, will somebody rise up to challenge Amazon in that space? Does somebody need to? Don't know. That's a question that will be answered in years to come. Great. Matthew, what do you feel? Yeah, I feel similar to that, but I would divide the market into operators or surface providers space and also enterprise. But I think for operators, I think it is at the tipping points right now because they can make use of that. And you can see a lot of examples here in the conference, but not the enterprise. I would say still enterprise need some ping points, some use case to develop, to use OpenStack in their infrastructure. So there are quite a big gaps in that area. Great. I get that. So given the fact that we already look at it from different angle, right, private public and then from service providers and enterprises, maybe I look at it from a geographical standpoint, right? So if we look at the region or even like overall global market, we do have like forecast to really tracking the size of the market. And we are really getting close to the tipping point, not yet. I mean, I think probably you will expect to see a very high adoption and growth in the next 12, 18 months, but no, we are not yet. But I think that we are heading to that, what we call the tipping point, that's global market. If we look at Asia again, it's really very diverse. Some market I would say is probably hit the tipping point, especially when we look at even like emerging market like China, I mean, there's a second largest user group and there's lots of the really actual implementation within the service providers and even a state-owned company in China. And lots of the providers, not just service providers, but also, you know, software distributions and, you know, cloud management and all different players come into place to create a very vibrant ecosystem. So in that sense, that's hits the tipping point. But of course, there's also the other side of the story or other market is still really working on, you know, try to figure out what's the best way to approach these technologies and whether they can integrate or to collaborate. So it really depends on, you know, which market that we are talking about, I mean, in geographical sense. Miki-san, how do you feel this is in Japan? Well, I feel that we need more sort of strong message from OpenStack community that OpenStack embraces second platform applications, for example. In the marketplace, I can, I talked to several ecosystem vendors who are concentrating on enterprise use cases and they're, for example, offering a storage platform that can sort of integrate OpenStack environment and VMware environment. So, you know, so the products and services that would help enterprise adoption of OpenStack is growing. So it really needs sort of promoting, you know, letting the world know that, especially in Japan, letting the people know that there are solutions that's suitable for typical Japanese enterprises. You know, that's where we are seriously lacking in sort of, you know, we are seriously trying to find use cases. I mean, a lot of people are looking for replacement of VMware. You know, OpenStack can serve that purpose. Why deny it? Excellent. Well, thank you for that. So I think I'll take a little bit of a different tack here since we were talking about where OpenStack was going and how it perhaps edged out the competition in the private cloud. Over the last few years, OpenStack was kind of the darling of the open source and kind of IT. But within the last year, Docker, Kubernetes, Coros, and a bunch of the other container technologies have really come out and shown a lot of momentum in the market. So a lot of the people out there have said, well, the future is Docker and Docker will make OpenStack irrelevant. Other people have said no, the cloud will be there for many years. I think other people have probably said they'll co-exist. What are your feelings on the topic? We'll start down here. I'm probably one of the people who also assumed that Docker may be just taking over and maybe a year ago I would have said that. Looking at OpenStack more and the use cases I'm seeing from the companies I'm talking to, I feel there is still quite the whole point of the integration engine. That's something that keeps coming up. And I feel that's really where OpenStack outshines all of those other use cases because there's so many companies that can move to OpenStack without completely redesigning everything they're doing. If you're going to containers and you're going to use Kubernetes and everything else, you're just going to have to re-architect everything. So if you're starting over or starting new, I think you probably don't need OpenStack at that point. You can run your stuff on containers and microservices and you will just find you don't need the whole complexity of OpenStack at that point. So I think they'll just coexist quite happily for a long time. It's technology. There's no point in talking about a 10-year or 20-year horizon really. But I would think within 10 years it's going to be a different discussion because people will have adopted containers far more than they have today. See, for me it's not even a coexistence. It's a symbiotic relationship. That's an interesting word, right? There's this wonderful project that I'm learning about this week called Project COLA. And for those of you that aren't familiar with Project COLA, it's the ability to deploy OpenStack in a container. So it's a chicken and egg and the Oracle guys, they jumped the gun a little bit on this. But Oracle OpenStack Linux, too, if there's any Oracle people and I got the wrong trademark, I apologize. The way you deploy that is as a set of Docker containers. So it's not even a question of coexistence. OpenStack is a container. That's crazy, right? So that's how it works because you have to think of containers as a deployment packaging format. And then it's also, you can think of it just as container as a micro virtualization segment. So as a packaging format, it answers a very difficult question that script kiddies like me have trouble with because RPM is a pain in the butt and it breaks. Docker, to push Docker and deploy an image as a Docker, deploy OpenStack Cloud, deploy an individual service is easy. Ten-year-old can do it, apparently. So that's where that's going to work. And then I'm also a big fan of history. In the IT industry, we had the same argument about 20 years ago with Java because Java first ran bare metal. And then BEA and WebLogic, if you remember, these companies and JBoss. All these, oh, well, we need higher levels of services in middleware, et cetera, et cetera. Java never kind of went away. You have middleware, you have both. It's just the 50 cents one way or half a buck another. And both work and they exist together. It's not an either or and never will be. Thank you. Miki-san? So the word that OpenStack is an integration engine, that's going to work for a long time. I think not all applications are going to be cloud-native and microservices and Docker containers tomorrow. So we, a lot of organizations will need infrastructure that can integrate all these different services, different layers and different types of services and run in a cohesive manner in an automated way. So that's where OpenStack shines. And it will shine for a long time for that. Agatha? Okay. So for me, I would agree the more integrated approach. And if you look at the existing use case and even the conversation with service providers, it seems like it's going to be coexist for, when we say long time, as our panel already talked about, long time is very tricky, right? Especially in the technologies field. So I would say like, at least in the next five years, we will see them coexist, you know, happily. Yeah, I do agree because it takes VMware from, you know, 2003 to now and get to the points like 80% of virtualizations, you know, in the markets. I think it will take really long time for container to have that kind of, you know, infrastructure exposure. And also I would see, you know, for, I certainly agree they will coexist, especially, you know, in different situations. Today we cannot put a database or a database into a container, right? So they have like, you know, you put database in bare metal or in a VM and then, you know, container can work with that database, you know, very well. I mean, so I think that kind of situation architecture will be, you know, will last for like, you know, another 10 years. Okay. Staying with you since you are a gardener in things. So the question is we always ask on every one of these summits, is OpenStack Enterprise ready? What's your feeling today? Yeah, as you know, the first question came along and then I was saying, you know, it's not quite ready, you know, because for gardener, you know, basically our clients are enterprise clients. And then I think the concerns would be around security. And then because we don't see a lot of security solutions built around, you know, OpenStack. And then certainly we see, you know, there are some something coming up. And then also, you know, we see difference of delivery model in the enterprise markets because as OpenStack Foundation has pushed certifications today, you know, OpenStack administrator certification. So I think, you know, that is a good move. But still for enterprise, they are shots of expertise and, you know, talents within the organization. So they are difficult, they have difficulties in, you know, deploying OpenStack. So in that case, I think, you know, it takes sometimes for they for them to, you know, grow their own expertise. And also, I would say, you know, the managed kind of private cloud by with OpenStack, that kind of, you know, delivery model would be, you know, suitable for enterprise adoptions in the market. Okay. Agatha. So I would look at it as like almost like breaking two questions, like is enterprise, you know, so enterprise themselves ready. And then it's OpenStack technologies as a technology ready, right. So I think if you look at OpenStack and now you see a lot of different contributions and different sort of like, you know, startup and new company coming in with all the plug-in and the proprietary control plane and, you know, the orchestration. So if you look at the trends like that, it's obviously there's things to improve. That's why you see all these proprietary technologies coming to to go hand in hand with OpenStack. So in that sense, the technology is not ready yet. And now if you look at enterprise, also, I mean, you look at the adoption trends and we always say, you know, even look at company that take a long time to virtualize their internal IT environment. Even right now, I think in our survey indicated that most of the enterprise, you know, IT, probably maybe 67% of the environment is virtualized and they are getting to the stage to automation and not even get to orchestrations. So if in that case, we look at the, you know, sort of like the transition and it's going to take a little long time for them to be ready to, you know, fully embrace new technologies like OpenStack. So the, you know, we cannot talk about enterprise as one entity, right? I mean, there are many, many types of organizations, enterprises with different sizes and they have different needs, different way to consume IT. So I would say OpenStack needs to offer a different way to consume OpenStack technology to different people. If majority of organizations will can, if it comes a time when a lot of organizations can safely find the solutions that suited for them to consume OpenStack technology, that would be the time when I can call OpenStack Enterprise ready. Sean? Yeah, and I'll be quick because I see there are questions from persons. My standard joke whenever anybody says something ready for the enterprise, I say, well, you have to ask Captain Kirk to ship, not mine, right? No jokes, no Star Trek fans, that's unreal. That's okay, that works in other cities, but yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. With the larger question and I guess I kind of hit on it too is whether the enterprise is ready or not, I shift that question and I ask people is, do you actually need a cloud? Because what's the difference between cloud and just virtualization? It's metering, a service-based approach and then a little bit more disaggregation and then sometimes some scaling and some additional manageability. So it's usually just a question of if that's needed. And I think for small, medium-sized organizations, certainly, which make up a good portion of enterprises globally, probably not. Once you reach a certain scale, then you need it. So once you decide that a cloud, who was ever clouded, makes sense, let's call it OpenStack, makes sense, certainly OpenStack is capable, but the better question to ask is do you need a cloud? Do you want to hackle us first, or should I? Robert said I was allowed to ask a question. So you guys are actually dealing with enterprise customers. Isn't the question not as OpenStack ready, but rather as OpenStack what was promised when it first came about five years ago? Because what OpenStack was promised five years ago and what OpenStack is today is very different and witnessed the rise of Miranda. I mean, OpenStack was promised to be this amazing thing that you'd just, you'd plug and play and it would just go and all of a sudden you'd be like AWS and it would be unicorns and rainbows. And you've got a company like Mirantis that is growing hugely and doing amazingly well precisely because OpenStack isn't that easy. So really the question is, do you guys who actually talk to enterprises all the time believe that OpenStack knows what it is? And more importantly, that the customers actually know and understand what OpenStack is trying to be. Yes, we're certainly aware of Mirantis success in the markets, but as I said, there is a huge skill gap in the markets. So why Mirantis or other providers are successful? Basically, they are providing services on top of OpenStack. So we think that OpenStack is more like a services market. So people can do consulting system integrations for their customers, for enterprise so that they don't need to grow their own expertise in their markets. So that's why I would think it's more to deal with the delivery model, business models, how you monetize OpenStack in different forms. So I would look at it as like awareness. If you talk about enterprise awareness around OpenStack, it's there because it's a lot of, you know, maybe you can say it's a hype, you know, and it's a lot of, you know, talking and it's really under the industry spotlight. The awareness is there, the interest is there, but I think that that's the gap, you know, between, you know, actual, you know, understanding and implemented and, you know, embrace it in your own environment. We talked about earlier about your use case that I think is a very valid point, you know, do you have to use case to really use that type of, you know, sort of like open environment, you know, scale up to infrastructure? I mean, who's going to benefit of that and what type of, you know, workload or application you're going to be running in that environment? Number one, number two is also the gap of the skill, you know, we're talking about even like for service providers. I mean, the biggest problem or challenge for them is really from the right talent to understand the technologies and be able to implement it. So I think that's the gap, you know, for enterprise to fulfill. I mean, they can go to, you know, service providers to get all the help, but still, I mean, especially for company that already have their own IT, they certainly want to have, you know, certain extent of control themselves. What about this? They're spinning up AWS and enabling the developers to do whatever. So we're talking about the science experiment that requires this whole service layer. We had, you know, name your big legacy vendor that's got a three letter or two letter name acronym for a name, thought, awesome, there's some services revenue we can make here. But that's not actually what enterprise want. What enterprise want is to be able to enable people to actually deliver outcomes and that's what AWS is giving them. Wasn't that what Red Hat did with Linux? So who's the, who's the equipment? No, but I mean, you're in early technology, people make promises, people say things, they get excited about it and then real companies have to come in and deliver something that companies can consume. I just don't think it's not without precedent. The only thing I'd say is when I first started talking to people like you did, OpenSack, some people will tell me, OpenSack is all things to all people, whatever you want it to be, that's what it is. And then different vendors have different views. So it just depends on who you talk to, right? Our three letter friends who have blue logos and other things and many patents. Yeah, so they have, they want it managed because they tell me and they tell customers the same thing, it's too hard, so we'll just manage the whole thing for you and that's it. The other way around is Amazon, right? Because Winner Vogels, you've seen him, he always says, I used to hug servers, I don't want to hug them anymore. It's a question, do you want to hug your server or not? Some people like hugging servers, some don't. Kind of hard usually to hug, really comfortable. I guess what it comes down to to some degrees, how hard it still is to stand up and OpenSack cloud at this point, right? That's really what it's all about. And it's, that's where all these services come in, all these startups who just try to help you stand up your cloud. And as long as it's that hard to get going, the only people who can do it are the really big enterprises. The small, medium businesses are just not capable of doing it and it's going to be really costly if they have to hire lots of consultants to do it. So I think that was the promise and that promised land of just being able to maybe just stand up a container with OpenSack at some point is going to make a big difference there. I'll just add in, because I know there's some red hot people here, not that I don't like Mirantis because Mirantis is great. So is Susie. They're all great. But the first son of a bet I went to was in San Diego and there was an RDO session and I sat in there and I had RDO up and running in like 15, 20 minutes and this is three years ago. So, you know, just a little bit of effort you can. And then this morning we're here at NTT saying they're running 100 million users on RDO. So, I want to add something because I don't want to paint the picture so pessimistic, right? Because it seems like I spoke before, you know, enterprise. But actually, you know, in some cases, especially when we see some enterprise, as I said, you know, in the journey of digital transformation. And then if they want to build some capabilities that is critical to their organization, you look at, you know, Walmart, you look at, you know, eBay. If e-commerce is at the core of their business, they need to grow their own capabilities. Then they use OpenStack. But for general enterprises, medium, small size, I think they need to seek for other delivery model. That's why the world needs more OpenStack-based, well-packaged cloud services, public cloud services that's approachable to medium and small size companies. Great. Are there any other questions? Thank you. I think one of the reasons why Linux became quite popular is the licensing they use, which is general public license. And OpenStack, CloudStack, both use Apache license, which allows to make the closed source software, if my understanding is correct. And I wonder, under Apache software license, how do you see the open source version of the multiple closed source version of the component OpenStack itself? Personally, I think it's a huge problem. And when the foundation and early on, when I spoke with Chris Kemp, who was the CTO at NASA, and he had a very long discussion inside NASA when they were trying to decide what the licenses should be. GPL, there's a lot of people, I personally love GPL. Richard Stallman is my father, and that's great. Absolutely. And it's fantastic. But a lot of commercial enterprises are afraid of GPL license infection, that is. So if you contribute code, then that code has to always be available and reciprocal, et cetera. It's a reciprocal license where Apache is not reciprocal. So if you give, you got to give back. So there is a risk, a nontrivial risk, let's never happen, where somebody could kind of split off and not give back. But the idea is so that it's more commercial friendly, because if you need that extra little piece to go on, there used to be this argument years ago about open core. And Apache can enable an open core. I think it does in limited sense, so that's why there can be a risk of interoperability, but that's why this idea of deaf core is kind of important. Is there a risk, medium term, maybe? Has there ever been a real problem, though, with the Apache license? Let's say there's Apache HTTPD, right, the world's most popular web server. Has that ever been a problem? No. With Hadoop, has it ever been a problem? Kind of, sort of, yes. Because Cloudera, Hortonworks, are they the same? Not really. So in that example, if open stack goes down that direction, the infrastructure layers would be different. But you've got to remember people move workloads, not infrastructure, so the workloads would move across. So long story short, yeah, there's a risk of forks and little minor pieces. And yes, I think it should have been GPL, but at this point it'll never happen. Other thoughts on licensing? Are there any other questions? So I looked on the OpenStack.org website and saw 27 distributions of OpenStack. Not asking to name names, but more numbers. Five years from now, how many distros? 270. Why not? There's no barrier to entry. I have a different opinion. I think the distribution will be shrinking because we see some MMA in the markets. Extending on from that question, not only are there lots of different distributions, but there's all the different projects with an OpenStack that people are going down. Obviously, there was the past thing that I was kind of critical of a year or two ago and containers the new flavour of the day. Again, for you guys that are actually talking to enterprises, it's very simple to tell people this is a tool with which you can build yourself an Amazon-like or AWS-like private cloud. All of a sudden it's very difficult to tell a story about what OpenStack is because it's past and it's NFE and it's SDN and it's cloud and it's container and it's this and it's that. What do you guys want to see in terms of more focus from the foundation or from the project in terms of what it is? Traditionally, I talk to infrastructure and operation folks, so they get how that works for them. But now OpenStack, increasing, adding some new projects, I think that actually positioned them as a different story than a traditional IAAS kind of storyline. So application developments and also network administrators, they will be paying attention to that. I think that increased the target audience, I would say, and also different, actually in the foundation, I think they tends to let different groups of people implement different projects so they don't necessarily tie up to the whole OpenStack implementation. So I think that is a good thing so that different projects can target different people in the long run. Yeah, I would agree. I mean, especially when you look at enterprise, it also depends on if you look at right now a lot of the project or component, subcomponent coming out. And it seems they really try to address all the challenges enterprise facing, like role-based access, identity, metering. Even metering is maybe not necessary but we are talking about the whole concept of delivering IT as a service. If you look at enterprise themselves as a service provider, then that might be helpful. I mean, not necessarily they're going to charge back to the internal employee, but you can at least show them the usage and all these things. So if you look at all this subproject, that's kind of in line with what they try to achieve and address the concerns around whether we earlier talked about whether it's enterprise ready or what are the challenges enterprise facing in order to really get over that hurdle and to which the next level of growth adoption. So OpenStack is technology and AWS is obviously service. So there's a complete difference between them. But I think from my interview with OpenStack Foundation board members and you know, Jonathan and Mark. So what they are really trying to do is really as technology, they are trying to still trying to battle with AWS. AWS is providing the technology as a service, but OpenStack Foundation is really trying to build technology that service provider can build on to offer services. Yeah, see for me, I see the OpenStack Foundation as a framework. They don't build anything. They just facilitate collaboration. So to say, you know, what area should the OpenStack Foundation focus? I think their focus is exactly where it should be. Users, right? And the user, just like the customer and business is always right. I'll twist that around for a little bit, because I don't talk to the enterprises as much, but I talk to my readers and it's just become harder and harder to explain indeed what OpenStack is. It was really early on, it was easy to say, that's your private AWS. It's easy. Once you start talking about integration engines and everything else around it, that's not that somewhat ill-defined. It just, it's become a lot harder for me to tell those stories. And you probably have the same problem. But so that's my answer to the question nobody asked. It's like answering the question, what is big data? Exactly. Excellent. Well, thank you all for your questions, and let's give a round of applause to our panelists for their time.