 And we're recording so you can begin. Okay. Okay. I keep forgetting, do I call the roll to make sure that we're here or do I do the pursuant to chapter 21st? You can do the pursuant to chapter 20 and call the meeting to order and then confirm that members can hear and hear. Very good. Okay, pursuant to chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021, they sent it by chapter 22 of the Acts of 2022. This meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone, see instructions below. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every word, I don't know what it's supposed to be. It says every director, maybe effort perhaps will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. Okay, I call the meeting to order and it is at 632 and I'm going to check that people can hear and be heard. Shalini Balmilne. Yeah. Okay. And Anna Devlin-Gothier, president. Andrew Steinberg. Present. And we're, okay. And Anika is not here yet. Okay, so Anika. I don't believe she's gonna make it tonight. She emailed us to say that she was on. Okay, very good. So then Anika will be absent. Okay. And I recognize our guests, Jennifer LaFountain, Paul Bachleman, and Guilford Moring. I cannot tell what that picture is, but it looks very interesting. And Amy Rusecki. So I think we're gonna open with public comment on water and sewer. That's what we decided at the last meeting, I believe. So do we have anybody, but two attendees I see? Okay. Does anybody who's an attendee want to make public comment at this time? Okay, well, we'll be having another chance for public comment later in the meeting. Okay. The first item on the agenda is the proposed amendment to recommendation and parking regulations on North Pleasant Street between Triangle and Hallock Street. And this comes out of CRC. And it's moved to amend the motion to add the phrase dual use on both in bullet points three and four after parking spaces four. And before permit parking and add the phrase and metered parking at 50 cents an hour for two hour parking limit and forced money through Saturday from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. at the end of bullet three and bullet point four. So there was an explanation with this and I believe in short, it was a way of making the permit parking spaces more versatile and that when the permit time is up, which is I believe at 6 p.m., right? Five. Five, then why is it say, well, okay, I'm not gonna question. When the permit time is up, that it be noted that it is available for metered parking. So, and then there would be a two hour parking limit and forced money through Saturday from 8 a.m. to 5, 6 p.m. So it's essentially our motion, but it took an area that we didn't look into and it seems reasonable to me. So let me take any questions or comments on this. Next ball. So, you know, this is, there are a couple of concerns in this and one is that we are eliminating a lot of permit parking spaces in this area. This is, and Jen can speak to this as well and you have just raised the permit parking fee. So we're increasing the fee and eliminating spaces. So just be alert to that fact. And the other is that something, so we have, I think just one area of town, Jen, that we have this already, which is Spring Street, where you can have permit parking or metered parking. And it does create some confusion with users because they, it's dual signs and they're trying to figure out what is appropriate here and there's different timing, you know, the five o'clock and six o'clock is by regulation. Do you wanna address that general at all? Right. And also with the dual use, the portion of Spring Street that's dual use, there's a lot of confusion on Saturdays, where it in normal designated permit areas, anyone can park there and not be ticketed. So people will park there and not pay the meter and expect not to get ticketed as well. So I think the dual use can be really confusing for many reasons. But we do have it on Spring Street now and it does generate some ticketing that people don't like. So just be prepared that that's just an alert for that. Right. Andy. I was curious, has anyone talked to anybody from CRC to understand why they made this recommendation? Because I think Jennifer is, sort of stated what I was concerned about and hearing about it that I frankly couldn't understand how it worked and if I can't figure out how it's gonna work, I'm not sure how people who haven't thought about how the parking regulations so it would be such a convoluted signage and explanation that would be required. And I'm not sure that it's necessary because which is why I wanna know if what CRC's purpose was what they were trying to get from this. I've raised my hand. I read the memo that went with it. There was concern that permit parkers once the weekly time is up and it's not enforced could leave their car there the whole weekend. And that would then be preventing people coming to the park with children from parking their cars. And Shalini, did you want to add to that? Yeah, that's the discussion I remember was that this area was because the young kids coming there and older people bringing crime kids. And so it was to make it accessible to them. That's all I remember about that. I had a question which was in the, when was this to take part? Cause I know the eventual plan after the road widening or whatever, there's going to be parking kiosks. Are there, would there be able to be meters at this point? Because a sign that says permit parking and with a meter next to it, if you read the sign, you can figure out what it is. It's a little harder, I think if the kiosk is further away. I don't know if that was discussed in CRC, Shalini or what Guilford has to say about that. So I mean, how we, you set the regulations, we do the implementation and enforcement and we're moving away from individual meters. They're expensive and hard to maintain. So we're moving more to the kiosk model as we move forward. Right. Yes, and that does make sense. Well, I had a thought. I mean, I do understand that this is complex, but I think if there were a special article or articles or even something on the town website about the park, parking at the park, okay? That this could be explained because it is a little complicated. It could be explained and those who want to park at the park to take children there would pay attention to it. So it could be, you know, a targeted information newspaper article and something on the website that would explain it because it is kind of complicated, but I think the goal of the thing that CRC was trying to do is a worthy goal. Dorothy, I wanted to clarify that this was an amendment proposed by one counselor, not by the committee, not by the CRC committee. So it's not coming from CRC. It's just one counselor who had planned to take it off consent at the last council meeting when it was on the agenda and proposed this motion. So they wanted to give the TSO an opportunity to weigh in on that proposal before it came back to the council on Monday. Right, I wondered about that. It's confusing because it was the chair of the committee. So I didn't know if it was officially one or the other, but it's supposed only from one only counselor on the CRC. Okay. Okay, Guilford. Thank you. When we first started looking at the kiosk, there was actually a method for people who have special events or so forth to put in special numbers to pay for parking. So let us look at the kiosk again and talk to the vendor again and make sure that's possible to put those special events. So if you have the ability to put in a meter, I mean, a downtown parking permit number in it and accept it, that would actually help you with the situation. We have individual meters on Spring Street. So you can't do that unless you take the individual meters out the kiosk in. But when we were first looking at the kiosk, there was all sorts of little things that you could do to encourage people to park there and not have special event parking basically. So if you consider the permit parking, special event parking, we may be able to get around the issue of permit parkers. They have to go up to the kiosk, they have to put their number in and it tells them, yes, it works, no, it doesn't. So there might be a possibility to do something to make this a little easier. That sounds very interesting. My brain has not totally wrapped itself around the concept. Does anyone else need a little more explanation on how the kiosk could work? Okay, so I guess it's clear. No, but you needing more information is a good enough reason for us to get it, Dorothy. I mean, if there's, yeah, we wanna make sure everybody's clear, so. So, okay, if I have a permit, I go to a kiosk and I type a number in. This is if the system can work and Gofford has to double check. And it says, yes, I recognize you, you have a permit and then you can park there. So then the permit hours are over and a parent is coming to the park with a child who wants to park there. What do they do with the kiosk? I haven't used kiosks, okay. So if you're a irregular, if you don't have a permit, you just go up to the kiosk and you put your license plate number in, you pay for your time. And that's how all the kiosk work, which is the same as a meter, except the meter doesn't need your license plate. But if it accepts it, it tells you it's okay. Yes. Yeah, so that is at least something to erase some of the confusion. You know it's okay because they accepted it. Okay, Andy. Yeah, I guess I still don't understand because if the goal is to increase the number of spaces that are available for people using the park and I think that is the understood goal and I support it. Then the question, what we wanna do is maximize the use of spaces from meters to the extent possible. And it's, you know, that would seem to work but we would need to have appropriate signage and I would understand the signs. But I'm really confused about what's being asked. There is the reality that when you get to Sunday and holidays, which are popular days to bring your kids to the park because you're not working, you know, parents are less likely to be working, then they aren't gonna be able to necessarily use meter spaces because anybody can park unlimited in the meter space on a weekend anyway. So I'm not sure that we've attained the purpose anyway of what we're trying to do. And then, you know, this whole doodle use thing I have absolutely no understanding still of why it actually is a benefit could, you know, somewhat for the same reasons but it's certainly if we're gonna then say that people who have permits can put their permit number in and use the meter as opposed to permitted space who've actually decreased the number of spaces that are available for the preferred purpose of parents with kids being able to use the park. So I just, I can't get my head around what we're talking about here. Anna. Oh, Paul can go first because I think he's gonna say the same thing as me but we'll probably say it better. So go ahead Paul. Don't know if we're gonna say the same thing. So I think the purpose of the amendment that the counselor made was to take 10 spaces that were reserved for permit parking only and expand it to allow it to be used for metered parking as well. And so that if you don't have a permit you can use that space. If no one's using it already with a permit. So I think that's the intent of the amendment. And so that's why it's called doodle use. You can have a permit or you can pay a meter to do it. Is that what you were gonna say, Anna? I was just gonna add that it Saturdays you still do have to pay. So it would be that it's not the full weekend that you can just park in a metered space. I think the question for me and I is actually I wanna hear from Jennifer is are we, if we open these to metered spaces we're kind of guessing that they'll be utilized as metered spaces but we won't really lose fully 10 permit spots and get complaints about that, right? So I think that that's where we just wanna that's the decision as I see it is do we feel like we are able to potentially have 10 fewer permit spots if these are constantly being utilized during those hours as metered parking? That's my understanding of the question. I support the doodle use because I think that it's a, I think more spaces is better but yeah, look at that. That's Athena, so good. So I'd like to hear from Jennifer kind of her thoughts on if we're playing a dangerous game in losing those spaces if that's okay, Dorothy. Yes, so I wanna add one question for Jennifer. I'm assuming that these kiosks have timing in them so that if you put it your permit number in after the metered, after the permit time say in the evening, it will not accept that as payment. Okay, so Jennifer. The entering the permit number into the kiosk is a new feature that I was not aware of. So Guilford could probably answer that a little bit better. Mike, my concern and I don't know if this is gonna answer the question my concern is are those 10 spaces that are being proposed as dual use? What if those 10 spaces are used as metered all the time and now you have no permit spaces at all? And we've just increased the permit price 10 fold for this upcoming season and now we have really a whole side of the street unavailable for people with those more expensive parking permits along with another building being built with mixed use that's gonna potentially have more people downtown as well. Yeah, that was my concern, Jennifer. Thank you. And can I ask a clarifier Dorothy? Yes, absolutely. Why are they putting, and I apologize if I missed this I was playing with Microsoft Word for a second trying to get it to cooperate. Why would they have to put their permit number into the kiosk? Don't they get a sticker? Isn't that the whole point? Sorry, I'm confused why they would have to do that at all. I think they will continue to get a sticker but I think if I understood how Gopher explained it was with the dual use they'd be able to put their sticker number into the kiosk and it would recognize that they've technically paid to park there. So they wouldn't have to pay again with their license plate number. But they wouldn't have to pay again anyway because they have the sticker that would tell the person going around giving tickets that they have a permit so they shouldn't get ticketed. Great. The kiosk really in my mind only applies to people who are the kiosk is a meter. So it only applies to people who are utilizing metered parking, right? The ask is just a singular large meter. Great. Great. Thank you. I thought for a second I was losing my mind. I appreciate it. So the question for Guilford is this amendment assumes that the kiosk can do different things at different times. There is no intent in this amendment as I read it to take away any permit time according to the permit regulations. But for the time that is not as that belonging solely to the permit holder or any permit holder was to put the metered parking for that thing. Can the kiosks do that? Dorothy, I think you might be getting hung up on the kiosk when I don't think that's the issue. Jennifer worried that this would take away the parking permits and the way I read this, the intention was never to take away any permit parking under the limits, the rules of the permit parking. But if it turns out that that is too difficult to do then we have to know about that. No, isn't the question that we wouldn't have enough spaces available for people who are paying a higher fee for the permits. And so that we'd get complaints from permit holders who are finding that they can't find a place to park. That's my understanding, Andy. Good clarification, yep. Okay, Shalini, please speak. So I think the increase in the rates we shouldn't be apologetic because it was extremely low and it's still lower than our neighbors than what buildings are charging, than what UMass is charging. So we're just making it slightly more realistic and we shouldn't feel apologetic. My question is more around, what is the town? I had heard that the parking, and maybe Andy, you know that when the select board was discussing the buildings that are coming up and the parking, that my understanding was that it's not downtown's responsibility to provide parking to the buildings. And I feel like our responsibility is to everyone who's utilizing downtown. And of course, I mean, the fact that we don't have enough parking means that we should have a parking which should be sponsored by the downtown builders through the bed and build that parking. So there's centralized parking for a lot to take care of that problem. But here we're taking away parking from our residents who come to downtown with kids in favor of the permit parking people. And I don't know, that's my understanding. But, and also I wasn't able to find any of this anywhere. So I'm a little lost also, but I'm just reading all this now. Like I didn't find it in the town where this document that we're discussing right now where it was, I couldn't find it in the town, the SharePoint or here or so. I'm sorry if I'm not making any sense because I'm kind of speaking on it. Yeah. It's in a report of the TSO committee before the changes. And when I submitted the agenda, I submitted this, but I believe it was abbreviated, but I'm not sure. It's very confusing right now. Yeah. Yeah, it did get abbreviated. But we did have, when in the report it has the motion and what we voted on, which is this without the yellow changes. Anna. So I wanna, I'm gonna try to offer some clarification because I think it can be confusing. When I, so Shalini, this is not taking away parking from metered spots. What we had initially done was that these were only for permitting. And so Mandy's proposed amendment is actually adding more parking for metered. So just to be clear, like if that is the goal, like if that is your belief that we should have as much metered parking as possible, then vote for this amendment. If you are concerned that we do not have enough parking for permit holders, you might consider not voting for this amendment. I think that that's my opinion on where the kind of two sides of it are. So I think that the, to your earlier point though about parking, we made the decision to not require a certain amount of onsite. We, the council prior to my time, I'm not like removing myself from fault there, but made the decision not to require a specific amount of on-premise parking for buildings that go in. So there is a responsibility for the town because we offer the permits to folks who live within a certain radius of the streets that we all just, we just approved that, right? So like, I think that responsibility is a big word, but that's kind of, we just did that when we went through the streets that get access to permits. I can't remember specifically what streets are on it and might be helpful to look at a map, but I think that that's, for me, this question at hand is, do we think that we have enough permit parking that we can risk losing 10 spots for the benefit of having 10 additional metered spots or not? That's my short way of explaining this. But Anna, that is not what this says. It does not mean to take away the metered spots. It says after the permit, after the, not to take away the permit spots, after the permit, they have a certain number of timeframe in which they have that spot. When that timeframe is not specifically given to a permit holder, it is saying make that metered. But I see Paul's hand up. So Dorothy though, if you read it as it was before, seven back-end parking spaces for permit parking Monday through Friday, and then it changed to seven back-end spaces for dual use permit parking and metered parking Monday through Friday. But the dual use only in the non-permit allowed hours? No, eight through five PM, it's all of the hours. Is that right, Jennifer? Okay, that's, I did not get that. Okay, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, no problem. Okay. Says dual all the time. Okay. Yeah, I was just gonna say, I mean, when Asino sharing the screen, there was a paragraph at the bottom of it where the counselor proposing it, explained why she was proposing it. And it was pretty clear explanation of why she thought this was a better idea for you to consider. That word says, my reason for seeking this amendment. So I think one thing the council could do or that you could recommend is to accept this amendment and we can see how it works. You can always change it down the road if you find that. There are some enforcement issues that will prop, that'll pop up, but we can, we work through that now on Spring Street. And we will guarantee to get people, we will have to alert people when they buy parking permits that there are very few parking permit spaces available in the town. Okay, thank you. What was I gonna say? I had a really good point that just flew out of my head. Okay, all right. So I'm gonna take my hand down until I can remember what it was. Anyone with another question or comment? Okay, Andy. So Paul, you're recommending that we do this? I guess it's one question. And the other is, is anybody actually tried to, at least on paper, design what a sign would look like that would go over these spaces so that people understand what they are? Jen deals with this on a regular basis. I'm just trying to get the council to a place that where you can take an action. And I think Ana tried to say, if you want more permit parking, you vote no. If you vote, if you want more metered parking, you vote yes. It was a good way to describe it. And Jen, do you want to weigh in on any of this? I think the dual use on Spring Street is a little less confusing because there is individual meters for each parking space that makes it a little more obvious that you should be paying for a meter. So I think we'd have to work on some pretty defined signage for North Pleasant Street with the kiosk. I don't, I don't know. It'll be tricky down there, I think. I recognize myself, I have my hand up, that it was mentioned, Ana, I said that there are some streets listed for permits. The streets listed for permits are not North Pleasant Street. Streets listed are some of the small, surrounding streets to the downtown. At least every time, I've seen the exact streets listed, there's very few of them. Like I think they, we just added Page and Best in which are very teeny streets, which are very narrow and don't have much parking. And there were streets of that type, where parking on the street is difficult. The other thing is that Paul says, give it a try. I believe with kiosks, it's easier to give it a try because you don't have to take meters out of the concrete sidewalk. So that it's a little easier to be to see how something goes and then to change it when you're using a kiosk system. Andy, is that hand still up? No, I'm sorry. No, okay. All right, I'm gonna take mine down too. Okay. So Jen's comment is that she will, it will be tricky to write a sign that will work and that there may be unpleasant learning curve at the beginning when people get ticketed. That's pretty much it, right, Jennifer? I think it'll just be hard to start it. And once people understand the process, it always gets a little bit easier. So it's something that we can include. It shouldn't get voted in. We can definitely include it in the educational process. We give people when they apply for parking permits and we'll just make sure we make that very clear. Okay, thank you. Anna, I see your hand up. Yeah, I just have a process question. Athena, are we moving the motion as was written or is it as was written in the agenda or are we moving to recommend the council make the amendment? You would be making a recommendation to the council about, so or revising your earlier recommendation to include these changes. Okay, so if I were to make a motion, it would be I move to revise our earlier motion to add the phrase, is that correct? Or would it, which is, which is better? Let me see. I think you could probably take this to revise your recommendation. All right, so I'm gonna take a shot at it. I move to revise our recommendation regarding northbound traffic on North Pleasant Street from McClellan to Triangle to add the phrase dual use as both in bullet points three and four after parking space is four and before permit parking. And to add the phrase quote, and metered parking at 50 cents per hour with a two hour parking limit enforced Monday through Saturday from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. at the end of bullet points three and bullet point four. No second. Second challenge. Thank you. Dorothy, we need to vote. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I have my hand ups in again. Oh, okay. I meant to anyway. I'm sorry. Yeah, I think I'm gonna vote no, I don't know where everybody else is. And the reason I'm voting no is because 20 part, 20 spaces that are being set aside as metered spaces is actually quite a bit. And I see a lot of families there, but I can't say that I see that number of families there on a regular basis. And there are a lot of other close by metered spaces. We just approved the idea of a much enhanced crosswalk across from directly in front of the playground access parking that's available in the lots that are behind across the way on the other side of East Pleasant Street and make it much safer to cross. So I don't think that we're really making it that difficult for people who are bringing kids to find metered places so I think that my inclination is is that this is creating a lot of confusion for something that I think is not really having a demonstrated need. Okay. Any other comments before we vote? Shalini. I think the dual the advantage is that if it's not being used by families coming down, then it could be used by a people who have special permit. So it's not. And at the same time, it is putting out a message to the community that we really want you to and have safe ways to park. And we did hear residents and I'm totally confused at this point whether it was the TS or the CRC, but we did hear from residents and seniors who want that easy access to the park. So making it easier for them, I think to me is a bigger priority and so I will be voting yes. Okay, thank you. Okay, so I'm going to call the question now and I'll start with you, Shalini. Yes. Okay, and Andy. No. Okay, and Anna. Yes. And Dorothy, yes, and Anika is absent. I know that she's left me a phone message, but I can't access it during the meeting. So I just want you to know that she has called and tried to leave a message, okay? I spoke with her, Dorothy, she's ill. Okay, thank you, thank you. Okay, so that is the vote, which is three yes, one no and one absent. Okay, and Andy, time will tell. You know, we'll see how it goes. And as Paul says, we can change your mind, okay? But anyway, we're gonna- There's a good point that this new motion will be on the motion sheet, but it won't be on consent agenda since it wasn't consent here. It wasn't unanimous here at TSL. Okay, thank you. And we don't know what'll happen on the town council. It will be on motion sheet, okay? Okay, so moving on now to water bylaw and regulations, sewer bylaw and regulations, I happily turn the meeting over to Anna. I've tried to get one bite in with our, all right. Okay, so we're gonna start with water and I first want to apologize to Guilford and Amy. There's just a ran out of hours, y'all, ran out of hours. So my plan for today is I do have marked up versions. I will send them to you right after this meeting. And I went through and we're gonna start with water and we're gonna see how far we get. And I went through the comments and picked out the ones that felt like meaty discussion topics versus quick questions for you. And so that's, I'd like to go through if that's okay, those elements. So I will share my screen. Also, hi, welcome. How are you? Thanks for being here. All right. Okay, so as a reminder, we are on water eggs. This document includes comments from, it says my name a whole lot, but these are comments from myself, Rob Hegner and Mandy Johanke. And so the yellow highlights are just for my mental note to talk about those things. Anna, I can't read any of that. It's small. Hang on one second, I will try to make it bigger. I'm gonna try to read the thing on the side while I also make it bigger. So bear with me, all right? All right, so one of the things that had come up again and again in the comments is whether it's always new installation only or if it applies to everyone retroactively. And so I'm curious if you could speak to, are there any differences in terms of where it is retroactive? If it's ever retroactive, where is it retroactive? Or is it only for new installation? So our permits apply, our policy applies to all customers. So if you're an existing customer, they apply to you and if you're a new customer, it applies to you. So does that answer the question or? So what happens if someone's not in compliance with this and doesn't know it? We try to bring them in compliance, and otherwise, well, actually most of the time we just try to bring people in compliance and it works out pretty good. Okay, so there are some new things in here which we'll have to work with people to get them into compliance. Yeah, so I think this question arose from some curiosity about how you do that, right? And how we're making sure there's the engagement component to not put people in a place where they have to get fined. Sorry, my dog has had two dinners and is still somehow very needy. So I think that answers it. Anyone else have any questions about application of this? No, okay. So one of the big questions that came up for one of our reviewers throughout this was the dispute resolution and due process question. And so when I send this to you, you'll see that question pop up a lot. And I'm curious, the commenter wrote, there does not appear to be any administrative or dispute resolution process. This would be necessary to ensure customers receive due process for a number of actions that may be taken by the utility. For example, when the regulation allows the utility to fine or otherwise take action against a customer. So could you speak to how you are ensuring due process throughout this? Yeah, Amy. No, I was just gonna comment that I think that's one that's come up and that even came up from Paul initially reviewing it. And the only reason that it's not laid out here was because he was trying to figure out whether this being a town regulation, whether it falls into here's how the dispute resolution goes for anybody that's in violation of any regulation or whether there's something specific that we need to lay out here. So we're just trying to get clarification on where it's appropriate to put that. Okay, great. So I can say that's a coming soon feature. Well, it could be coming soon, but it may not be coming soon because we operate not only under the authority of the regulations, we also operate under the authority and the requirements of the state law. So some of the things may be required by state law and there's no way to appeal them. State law says you'll do them. And if we don't do that, make sure you do it. We're fined and the town will end up being fined as the water purveyor. So I guess we need to kind of, we need to figure those two things out somehow and define that for you. Yeah, thank you. I guess I should have been clear. I meant it will be addressed in that you're going to work on it, not that it's a guaranteed thing for every, yeah. Okay. Anna, what page are you on? I find many Bs, but none of those words next to it. I am on page two. Oh, okay. B, A, B1A. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, I thought that was just use of terms, definitions, definitions. Okay, great, thank you. Does anyone else have any questions regarding retroactive or due process? Those two comments from Evan? All right, continuing on. So one of the, oh, hang on, I'm following my own rules. I apologize if I'm making you motion sick by trying to find my next highlight. I really was trying not to go through every single thing. So there was a couple, there were a couple of questions about law and irrigation systems. And I know I asked this when it first came up at council, but it seemed unclear whether folks have like a hose attached to a sprinkler versus like a built in. And so I just wanted to clarification because in my mind, this was a simple edit of like, can you just add something explaining that this is for built like constructed irrigation? But I wanted to confirm that that was true. Yes, it is. Thank you, okay. All right, scrolling, scrolling. Wrinkler systems. We're moving on. Okay, sorry. All right, so this part, the, nope, hang on. I don't like sharing my screen while I'm scrolling through because I know I'm making everyone see sick and I'm very apologize for that. All right, so there were a couple of questions around service. Does this, so for those following along at home, I'm on page seven, five A, does this prevent a duplex town home or apartment? Stop talking. Duplex town home or apartment setting from metering each individual unit. How can we encourage each unit to be metered and charged separately so that we can support water conservation efforts? So no, it doesn't restrict metering individual units. We do not wanna have individual renters as our customers. We wanna have property owners as our customers because if they don't pay the water bill, we wanna lean the property, not chase people who are renters. So we want to have one owner who's responsible if the owner wishes to have, and if we're required to have some future point in time required to have each individual unit metered, that can be done off the one service to that property or to that owner. And it's not, I mean, you couldn't meter each property and just bill, meter each unit and just bill per property. We could, but we do not do that right now. I mean, it would require an infrastructure addition. Okay. Yeah, I mean, you could, but that's however many additional bills, however many additional meters longer to read the meter. And so, we do allow people to sub, like Gilbert was talking about, you can sub meter your tenants if you wanna pass the bill on to them that's legally allowed by the state, but the town doesn't do that. The owner can do that to their tenants. Got it. Okay. All right. So similarly, sorry, continuing this area, the town is considering promoting infill as a mechanism to increase affordable housing. I can imagine a case where a homeowner constructs a rental unit on their property and wants to have a separate water service to that unit. It might require two water service pipes and curb stops for the same lot. I understand you can separate the metering. Would it require two service pipes or would you just split it and meter it differently? What we tend to do is if a property can be subdivided, we require two services and two meters. If a property cannot be subdivided, we'll allow them to have one service and then they can sub meter inside the property. Okay. Thank you. Okay. All right, this part. So how does the owner find the curb stop or the curb box? If it's, sorry, I'm on page eight, page eight, seven C. How does the owner find the curb stop or curb box if it's not currently visible? Does the town keep detailed information on locating these, especially in older homes? And then another commenter wrote, I swear these weren't all me, I promise. Another commenter wrote, I have no idea where these are on my property. I doubt if many property owners have this information particularly if the house is old. Yes, most people don't know where it is. So how do they find it? So they can log on to, if you go to the town GIS system, then any information that the town has for records of where service lines are and where curb boxes are is on there. But I'll go ahead and use this as an opportunity to stand in my soapbox and say, the fact that there's not great records of these is part of what makes me nervous about the town taking on any ownership because this is your house and you don't even know where it is and you're trying to pass this unknown information along to the town to know where that is. And it's a little intimidating to us. So what do you think is the best mechanism for getting that data? So if people go to the town GIS system. I mean, if it's not in the GIS system, like if I don't know where it is and you don't know where it is, now what? Then we have to do some surveying and figure out what's going on. It could be a detailed process, but it is possible to figure it out. How would you do that? Well, normally the town will try to figure out where your curb stop or curb boxes. Your curb stop is gonna be at the main and your curb box will be somewhere on your property or adjacent to the property line. So we can figure it out, it just takes time to do it. Andy? So when you are in a situation where you feel you have to shut off service to a property, how do you go about, where do you turn it off? Where's the valve that you use for that purpose and how do you find it? That's the curb box valve. And if we have the information Andy was talking about, we use those records to find it. If we don't, then it's a bunch of, we do a bunch of sleuthing and detailed figuring out. It takes a while to figure it out, but we usually figure it out. A lot of times when we actually can't find them easily, it's actually because it's under a tree or a large hedge or something like that and we can locate it easily. For someone paved over it because their driveway is in a different place than it was however many years ago. And it does say that the owner pays all the costs to find it. So would that be if you're doing, I'm sorry, this dog is losing her ever-loving mind. If the town is doing the work, they would then send a bill to the owner. That is our proposal right now, yes. Okay. Any, no questions on that? Okay. All right, I'm gonna move on. Were you good if I move on? Continue the journey here. All right, so a couple of questions about, oh yeah, sorry. So a lot of these things that are coming up which none of us know about and I'm assuming most residents don't know about. I mean, in the lease, should we make a list of them to let people know that these are things you as a home owner should know about and because if this happens, then this, you know, like what could happen. I think it's an opportunity to inform homeowners to at least, I wanna go and look up now where is my curb box. I don't even know what it is, but I'm gonna start looking for it. So I don't know if you should just make a list of it. And you say we, who do you mean? I would say the town staff, right? I mean, I will include it in my newsletter for sure, but that's a good question who should, I mean, I think the town staff, like could we have this in the website or call? I think we can certainly work with you guys on creating something if we know, you know, we wanna get information in people's hands, so. Dorothy or Shalini, are you all, was that your? Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I like that, that we do both like it's on the town website somewhere related to this, but then it's passed on to us counselors so we can then share it with the residents. Yeah, I could see it as like, hey, welcome to Amherst, you just bought a house here. Here is like, yeah, yeah. Dorothy. So my question is, does it have to do with the age of the house in the neighborhood? When I had my incident, the town knew exactly where everything was. There was no question. They had their ways of finding out and they said, oh no, we've got it. I'm on a main well-traveled road, but I would imagine some of the more rural or outskirty or older residences might present more problems. So I'm asking, is that true? Most of the time it is true that it's the older houses and older houses on smaller roads, although there are some newer developments where things were done and there's a time period in our records where records weren't kept very well about 20 to 25 years ago. Those records are not the greatest either. So it's both. I'll chime in to just say that when it comes to understanding where water services are, I would say that the town probably has 80 to 90% of the water service cards. Then again, that might be an original and if somebody did a repair on their property and didn't submit paperwork, they might not 100% be accurate, but we probably have 80 to 90% of them. When it comes to the sewer service cards, it's a really small percentage that the town actually has in their records. It's maybe on the order of like 20% that we have. So just kind of understanding that our records are only as good as the people submitting the information to the town. Is there anything in these regulations that's going to improve that? Let's get more records, looking forward. Well, records have been getting better, have been getting better and better as we've been going along. Most of the contractors that work in town who are regulars know they're supposed to talk to us and they do talk to us because we hold the information and then when they have a problem, they usually come to us asking for the same information. So they're really good. What we find is people who bring a contractor in from outside of town who doesn't work in Amherst regularly, those are the people and those are the properties we have the least amount of information on because that contractor just comes in, does the job and leaves and doesn't really wanna, doesn't have a relationship with us. Okay. I'm picturing like a sticker that you put on these things that's like, hey, welcome, you just found the curb valve, call the town of Amherst. All right, Andy? Yeah, I just was gonna point out that if I understand the whole process correctly and I think I did, that a lot of most of this that we're putting into the regulations is really in place already either from the old, very old regulations or common practice or state law. And what we're really doing is improving knowledge by posting these regulations. And so to the extent that we're using terminology or things that people really need to investigate, it's not, it's that we're alerting them to what really has been all along and that it's a benefit of the regulations that we've been alerted to it and they're able to start thinking about what we need to tell the customers. I agree. And it sounds like there's been challenges with not having a lot of this data. And so I just was, this is an opportune time if there is a way to improve that system to get more data, now would be the time to maybe do it. But I recognize that there isn't a perfect way to do that. I agree. Yeah. Shalini? Yeah. And was there another question around that clarification of damage caused by who? There was, it was that same question of due process. So yeah, I didn't flag it because the due process ones pop up a lot but I'm happy that we talked about that. So yeah, the question is, does it matter who causes the damage to the curb stop or the curb box? Normally the damage is usually caused by the property owner. Any damage that's caused and where we're working on a road is fixed by our contractor immediately. So this is damage that usually happens by something being done by the owner on the property. We can change that and clarify it if you want some more. Yeah, I think just clarifying that here would be good. Thank you, Shalini. So, all right. The water, hang on, stand by. Oh, yes, this one, okay. So we're on, now we are on page nine, D up at the top, leaking service. When the utility determines that an owner's water service is leaking, the owner shall hire a private contractor, obtain a water repair permit from the utility and facilitate the repairs within seven working days and less an alternative repair schedule is presented by the owner and approved by the utility. Seven days is very short given like right now when you think about how long it takes to get someone to come do work on a property. And so there are a lot of, a couple of comments. My own included this time about whether that's a reasonable amount of time or is this alternative repair schedule really just gonna say, they said they couldn't get here for six months. That might be really ridiculous, but seven days. The seven days is to get people to come talk to us. It also, the seven days comes from, on the state level, basically we're allowed to have 10% of our water used that doesn't pass through a meter. And if you're any more than 10% of your water that doesn't pass through a meter, you get in trouble with the state. So we have to have these really strict regulations and what they say is, if there's like a water main break that happens and it's repaired within seven days, you can say, okay, I'm estimating this water usage. It didn't go through a meter, but we know that there's this water usage. If once it's over seven days, they say, that's a leak, you should have fixed it faster, you can't count that. And so that starts eating into the 10% that the state allows us before we get in trouble. So the seven days is an arbitrary, it's a state-imposed deadline that we're doing what we can to try to meet. The schedule, the alternative repair schedule is understanding that getting a contractor there isn't a quick process. So. That's very helpful. Thank you, Amy. I guess my question is obtain, right? Like does obtain mean that it is, they're ready to do the work or is it just that they like Gilford said, they came and talked to you and tried to figure out the schedule? Like can they get a water repair permit if the work won't be done within seven days? Yes, you can get a permit whenever, you can get a permit then or you can wait and get the permit after we agree on the alternative repair schedule. But we want people to come in and start talking to us and be as quick as they can about it. Like Amy says, we do have the seven days, but the seven days is to get people to come in really and start talking. We've had people who have waited months and years before they've come in and talked to us and it's not been a good situation. Okay, Dorothy? How do people know that they have a leak that's more than 10%? Well, the 10% doesn't apply to the homeowner. 10% applies to the utility, but most homeowners know they have a leak because all of a sudden their yard has a wet spot. That's usually how they find it. We find some leaks because every two to three years we go through and do a leak detection test and we may find it doing the leak detection and we may tell you, we think you have a leak there and it's on your side, it's on your service. Those are things that as the two ways you'll find out. The regulation says when the utility determines that the owner's water service is leaking, so you would be notifying the owner and once you notify the owner, then the owner has seven days to either hire a contractor or come in with an alternative schedule, but the notification starts with us as a town. Us as a town identifying that there's a leak and that it needs to be addressed and I think that the notification process can be a little as detailed as you need to be to tell them what to do, but it isn't on the homeowner to just out of the blue say, oh, there's an underground leak somewhere and I don't, that I never knew existed. Now you're telling me about it. I thought it was just wet ground for whatever reason. Yeah, thanks, Andy. Yeah, the wet spot in the yard could be there for a while, but until you all say there's a leak here or until they ask you, hey, I think this is leaking, that's what starts the clock. Yeah, okay. This is a quick one that I do wanna entertain. So why a licensed, is it just because only plumbers can deal with water meters? The question was why a licensed plumber when everywhere else is a licensed contractor or an approved contractor on page something? So all the meters are installed inside your house and this building code says a licensed plumber is the only one allowed to work inside your house. And actually the licensed plumber can only work, it has to be in your house and 10 feet beyond and then the contractor picks up 10 feet beyond your house to the main, so. Got it. That's the state requirement. Perfect. All right, couple issues at the bottom of page nine with 2B, so I enjoyed reading this one. Accessible, I know you don't mean ADA accessible, but accessible means a lot of different things. Clean is also as my parents constantly remind me a relative term, same with warm, dry feels pretty clear, but these are all really relative terms. And so I think there was a lot of question on who, you know, what does that mean? And then the other question was again, easily accessed by a person in an upright position, like that depends on how tall they are. So how do you make sure that you're not setting people up for failure? And then I believe one of the other questions was the, oh yeah, so this person wrote, my meter is approximately two feet above the floor, which would require a person of average height to bend over to install the meter. Are they supposed to then move it and get a whole new one because it's two feet off the floor? No, if it's accessible and a person of average height can kneel down and get to it, then it's fine. But if the person has to- The upright position, go for it. It does, but I mean, the person has to, I mean, we can look at changing the upright position possibly. I mean, what we don't want is someone laying on their stomach or on their back and having to go upside down or bend over backwards. Those are the ones we wanna- I think we also, I mean, and I'll tell you, these are from true stories. We don't want them to have to be moving every single thing in your basement to get at the meter, to access it. We don't want them to be crawling through a crawl space to get to it. That's, you know, it's just, it's not fair to our employees and they've been in those situations, but it's kind of gross. Or it's putting a lot of work on them to clean out someone's basement just to access a meter sometimes. That's not part of the job, huh? Yeah, no, I think the spirit of this is clear. I think where the confusion is, is like, all right, if I can't help some of these, some of these things you can help, but like people have unheated basements. They can't necessarily, you know, I think that the question comes in, like what do they do if they feel like they can't meet these? Or if they are like, oh, well, I can't call them now because it's not, it's two feet off the floor, right? And I need to move it. So I guess that as much specificity would be helpful. I mean, even if you like meet OSHA regulations for temperature or something like that where there's some sort of thing that people can meet, this was, it was flagged by everybody that did review this, just as a like, I don't know what this means. So yeah, we can change warm place to above freezing. Great. I mean, I think like the more, yeah, the more specificity, the better. And I do think the upright position thing, as someone with a five-foot basement, I'm just, that ping little red flag for me because I can't, unless I get a really big shovel, can't change that. So, and it does, I guess. I'll just throw out with that, that like, I mean, you guys verbally heard us talk about like, here's the constraints and here's what we don't wanna see. And so certainly like, if you guys have suggestions on how to clean this language up that gets that intent and makes it clear, I'm happy to hear that as well. I will happily come to you with solutions and not just problems. Thank you. That's not a problem. Dorothy. I think I remember having to have some kind of meter moved in a very, very old house because it was in a very bizarre place. Does this happen often that people in very old houses do consult with you and get them and move one of these meters? Every once in a while, we do move meters and people ask us to and we ask them to move meters. And usually it's to get it into a better position so everybody can see it and find it or to move it away from something that they wanna put a bathroom in the basement or they wanna finish a room in a basement and we'll move the, let's say, you can move the meter over here and stuff. We do want the meter usually as close to the entrance to the building as possible so no one can add another line and pipe off a pipe that's before the meter. We don't want that. Moving on to page 10, number four, meter reading and meter reading devices. There's a question about equity of quarterly billing. So if it's, maybe the first question is why quarterly versus monthly? And if customers could do like an estimated and then a truing up billing, if they... We're kind of, we're trying to move and we probably required to move to a monthly billing process. And then what'll probably happen because it costs so much to do quarterly billing is it will probably be something for people who pay their bills online is something we're looking at. We haven't got to yet and we haven't got the ability to do it but we are working towards moving more towards a monthly bill. Amy? I'll, again, you're giving me all the opportunities to stand on a soapbox. I'll just say that in order for us to get to monthly billing, it's much easier when we get the radio read meters in there. So anybody who does not have a radio read meter, we would love the opportunity to come to your house and change that meter out because it's much less time consuming to read those. And so we can get billing done more expeditiously. Is that free? It is free. It is free. And did you look at the people in this group and are ready to call us out if we don't have one? I did not. I'm not trying to publicly shame but I will encourage each of you if you have not changed your meter to call us and we will change it for free. We'd love to. Probably gonna have to call you. All right. And you do have it as all meters will be equipped with a radio read device by January 1st, 2023. So my question on that is, that's a deadline you all are prepared and able to meet for the number. That's a deadline we put in there. We'll never meet that because we're not getting enough response back from the residents. If you wanted to change it, if we want to change it to a different date, 2025, we could do something like that. What? Sorry, that's a big change. Like to... To tell the truth, people just don't want people in their basement. They don't like change. That's a couple of years, that makes sense. Yeah. Dorothy? Oh, sorry, I made it. Oh, I've assumed that a radio reading did not require them to come into your house. It does not. But you have to go into the house to replace the meter and put the radio with the meter. Well, I think this is something that's just ready for a big campaign. So I would say, let's not change the date. Let's just get people going and let them know that one free visit in the house and then it's contactless. I think there's a lot to be said for that. Amy, I hope there's enough room on that soap box for Dorothy to jump up there with you. I love it. No, Dorothy, this is awesome. Let's team up. Okay, great. Andy. Can we take bets? Andy, what's your question? Yeah, now it's a really question. It's just the point that I think that a lot of people at this point, if they were just told that, hey, you don't yet have a radio read device and you're required to obtain one, please give us a call, at least it gives people a chance. But if there's confusion now as to where they exist and where they don't exist. I mean, I think I have one, but I can't be certain because I know that a change was made, but I thought the change was made to put it on the outside of the house at one point. That was the previous iteration. So we didn't have to come into the basement. We could read it from the outside, which was better over time, those wires corrode or it gets snagged on something. And it's why the radio that's right next to the meter means that we also don't have to enter your house, but it's a lot less ripe for an error over time. We've made a couple of pushes and we will make more pushes to try and get in people's houses. Recently, we've been targeting anybody that had an estimated read. So the people who we can't get a reading from, but over the past, we've been at this for like eight years now trying to change them out. And so we put stickies on anybody's utility bill that didn't have it or highlighted on your utility bill. Call us, we wanna change your meter. We've sent out mailers. We've tried a lot of different tax, but we're certainly open to suggestions and even just circling back to the tax that we tried initially to try to push this forward. Sean, Sean? Yeah, and how do we know whether we have the radio? Is it, are you still highlighting it on the website? I mean, on our bill or? You could also, if you go into your basement, if you know where your water meter is, which hopefully you do, it should be somewhere in your basement, usually on the street side of the house. If you go along that wall, you can see where it comes in. And if you look at your water meter, if it's got a radio, then you've got the meter head that you can read a number on. And then it's got this, is it gray or black? It's basically got a box. It's black, so a black device that's attached to the side of it. If it's got wires going out to wherever, that means that you've got that technology that Andy was talking about, which is a reader on the outside of the house. But if it's got this box about, you know, gay bag that's attached to the side, that's the radio. Okay, was it particularly a year when all of this changed? Like, can I just send a blast out message that if your house was made before, so-and-so? It's not about when it was made, but we started changing out these meters in, I wanna say it was around 2014 was maybe when we started. And so if you had your meter changed after 2014, then you'd probably have a radio read. If it was prior to that, then it would have been previous technology. And my question was less about, are the residents of Amherst ready? And more, you all have enough radio read devices, you all have enough stuff that if we, if every single person is magically like, I'm ready, tomorrow you could get them done by 2023. No. Okay, so the state definitely does need to change then. Yes. Okay, great, thank you. That's- Good note. We have enough meters. It's the manpower to- It's the staffing, yeah, absolutely. It's the staffing timeframe to do it, but the meters are sitting in boxes as they have been for several years now. I think that's right. Right, every two weeks that it takes us longer to do this, and I apologize, that's two weeks less that you'd have to do it. So yeah, so I guess that would be, I will let you all determine. Guilford, you said 2025, is that the pitch? I'll let you all figure that out, but- You can do that for now. All right. 2025. Okay. All right. So then next question is some landlord, this was, okay, let me, sorry, rereading this for the second time today, because you can see when I put it in. Some landlords might not opt for a radio read device as written the regulations would likely pass the cost of non, oh, it's another due process question. So I don't necessarily know that that's on you all to respond to about how to prevent them from passing that on to their tenants. Why would people choose to not go with a radio read? Is it just that they don't want people in the basement? Amy? Well, we really don't wanna talk about all the reasons. Oh, there are a lot. There are people that have a fear of radio signals. Is it EMFs or whatever? They have a fear of that. And so we do hear that from time to time. We have literature on it that we can show you that it's actually not as harmful, it's not harmful, it's not scary, I mean, we're carrying cell phones, we've got TVs, we've got microwaves in our house, your radio device on your, and your electrical meter probably has the same device that we're gonna try to put on. So we're not exposing you, but I understand the fear and we do have to talk people through that fear from time to time. From time to time though, this is not a significant thing. No, it's a small handful of people that have that question and we talk them through it. Most people we can talk them all the way through and there's some people that regardless of what we say, they still, that fear is there. Okay, thank you. Dorothy? So my question is, does this radio meter emit a signal all the time or does it like dormant until you send a little hello, hello, I'm here to get you so that it actually is on a very- It remains dormant until the reader comes by and says, hey, meters, talk to me and all the meters talk to them and then they go dormant again. All right, so that's not much radio waves, that's what I'm saying. I'll also point out, because some people also have the fear that when they hear it's a smart meter, they have this fear that someone can watch what they're doing all the time and we'll know when they're on vacation because we can see that there's no water being used for a week and that sort of thing. That's another fear that comes up and I will say that in order to do that, you have to have technology, you basically have to have antennas throughout the town that are reading that all the time and sending it back to us. We do not have the technology to do that. And so again, that fear, people hear smart meters and they go to a dark place. We don't have the technology in place to do that nor do we have plans to set up technology like that to know you're reading on a daily basis, to know when you're in town or not in town or what you're doing at your house. Thank you. Sorry, I'm trying not to go scroll as fast as I normally scrolls, but it's really hard. I hope everybody's having a lovely Thursday. We talked about lawn irrigation systems. I'm just going to make sure I covered everything with it. Oh, so one of the questions was you talked about, you use the word permitted. Oh, sorry, I'm on page 15. You use the word permitted for regarding municipal, I mean, regarding lawn irrigation systems that are connected and it was just, do you have that form and can you put it in the appendices? Yes, that's something we're moving towards. That's why it's in there now. So we can come up with the, basically it would be the same application you use now. It would just be for a lawn irrigation system. Perfect. And then second point is, is there a deadline for this similar to the radio meters? At what point do all irrigation systems have to comply instead of just new ones or is it only new ones? We would prefer, we're probably going to be required by DEP to know all our lawn irrigation systems. Okay. Because that's part of the drought management plan they want us to have is that we won't know where they are. So it's coming, so it's not anything that's actually probably right now, but it will be coming that we have to know all this stuff and we'll have to actually permit them all and actually verify they have their proper backflows on them and inspect them according to the backflow devices as well. So it's something that's coming. So you're not able to put a deadline now but we should expect a revision in the future where you add one. Yes, although if you just leave it like that you kind of cover the future. The big thing on this as well, thinking of what the DEP is going to be requiring us in the future is also that moisture meter. They want to make sure that you're not watering the lawn when it's raining outside. And so any new lawn irrigation system this is standard practice now but they're going to expect all lawn irrigations to not be watering on a rainy day. Okay. So I think, yeah, that makes sense. Guilford to your earlier point though, I mean, I think that's been a, that was a point of confusion throughout this is what's retroactive and what's just for new. And so I do think that if something is retroactive it's helpful to explicitly state that. And I know you can't give a deadline but you can say all new and existing, right? Or something like that because for a lot of the rest of it, if I'm not mistaken, no, maybe I am mistaken, right? Like I guess I just, one of the questions that came up again and again was is it retroactive or is it just new? So you're saying that assume retroactive and less otherwise specified. Yes. Okay. Dorothy. I find it interesting to know when these things are DEP regulations and the, so I think you, I would suggest putting that in also, do you ever get money from the government? This sounds like this would cost money to do. We actually have to pay the Department of Environmental Protection about $18,000 a year just to operate our water system. So no, we do not get money from the glorious state to help us with these things. Thank you. The DEP is pretty famous for what we call unfunded mandates, which is we're going to require you to do something that costs money, but there's no funding, unfortunately to cover that cost. Yep. I mean, they're actually also talking about manually or automatically controlled valves on sprinkler systems that the utility can actually shut off during a water drought that we will push a button in a signal and go to your house and shut off irrigation system. But I don't know how they're going to do that. That's going to drive some people nuts, but it's a good idea. We are nowhere near the technology to do that for anybody that's fearful hearing that statement. And you definitely would never just do it for fun of like, on, off, on, off. All right. Well, only to you. It depends on who you are. This is why I don't have one of those and why I'm not a water utility person. All right, so too much power, too much power. Okay, so we are now on page 19. How do people get as-built drawings? The owner contractor or it's contract, it's contractor, these are humans or their contractor shall provide as-built drawings to the utility at the completion of the construction project. So as-built means the new thing that they just put in, not the as-built when the house was built. Correct. They actually make the drawings as they, it's either in the new plans for the renovation or so forth or the new house or they give us a sketch of what they actually installed and the contractors know this pretty much. Perfect. When I read it out loud, it made sense to me. I don't, I think it was not my comment, but it makes sense. All right, thank you. That's also a place where as we were talking about service cards and having them or not having them, that's the requirement that says, at least from here on out, whenever anyone's doing work, they need to submit that so that we have those records. Okay, okay, thank you. Almost there. There's one big one. Okay, so maybe two big ones. We are now, we're almost there. We're now on page something 22 and we're starting with four water use restrictions. So this was the question that I'm hoping my fellow counselors will have some really good insights on and their thoughts. So who is the proper entity to impose water use restrictions? The council or the DPW? What is, hang on. Sorry. No, it's okay. What this is saying is that the council is giving, just clarifying what, as I understand it, this is saying the council is giving that permission to DPW. And the question is as water, as acting as water commissioners, should that be the council or should it be DPW? Right? Guilford, that's the question as you are, you can go now. I'm done. So there's actually two levels of water use restrictions and there's restrictions that we put in place, that we put in place, which are kind of informal restrictions. As we move into our new water permit, we'll actually have a more formalized and it'll become part of this, I hope. Water use restriction plan and policy. And that actually kind of falls to, wouldn't fall to the water commissioners during certain events that are declared by the DEP that you would have to do those. So is this a change in whose responsibility it is? No, it's no change. I mean, right now we just, right now we don't are not required to have a real formal policy. It's coming in our new water permit. So we work on an informal policy, which we can do some restrictions, like I said, but then when we go out to the community and do community-wide restrictions, those have to come from the water commissioners. Andy? Yeah, I was just trying to think back. I can only remember one instance when I was on the select board where this came up. Trying to remember the exact year, but it would have been obviously in the last 10. And you came to the select board and, you know. Yes, I mean, during 2016, that was the year of the drought, Amy? Yeah, I think so. That was, we had to go to the select board for that. But then we had a water break when two years ago, we had a water break and we put out a notice immediately saying we need people to conserve water and please not waste water. So that's one of the ones we would do on a temporary basis or as needed basis for a dedicated incident. And then the water restrictions, which Andy's talking about was for a longer DEP required, you need to do this. So is it temporary or is it emergency? Because they're both. Yeah, okay. I mean, perhaps this gets split into, if it's an emergency, then the utility isn't going to have the time to get. 100%. Town council approval for these, you know, short ones that maybe last 24 hours or I don't know, maybe less than five days where some, you know, some incident happens, you know, certainly the town council is going to be involved in the process. If, you know, something like 2016 where we've got a drought, we're watching water levels drop and we need to do a long-term several months. Yeah. And our new, some of it though, also our, as Guilford's saying, our new water permit, which we'll be getting one of these years, but our new water permit is literally going to look at river levels and say, when your rival either based on calendar dates, you have to do water use restrictions between this date and this date, or once a river level drops to this certain amount, you have to declare a water. So some of it's going to be taken out of our hands regardless of what we want to do in town council, it's just going to be permit-based. So it gets a little more complicated in the future. And as I recall that drought, it was really a statewide crisis and it didn't hit us first, it hit other parts of the state. And so other communities were in the news a lot for water restriction and, but we came into it eventually ourselves. Correct. Dorothy? I am getting curious about the new water permit. It sounds like something that's very much based on mandates, that's going to be many, many, many pages that you don't know if you'll get it and you don't know when you'll get it. Could you expand on that, please? Well, we know we're getting it. It's kind of like we're going to get a tax bill this year. We are eventually going to get a water permit. Yes, we don't know when we are going to get it. The issuance of the permits have been delayed. They were supposed to have been issued back in... I think 2015 or 16 is where our previous permit expired, but the entire state, all 351 communities all expired at the same time. And because of all these mandates, it's taking longer. So they're literally going river basin by river basin and we're low enough on the list. It was supposed to be 2018 and that was 2020 and here we are in 2022 and they haven't gotten to our basin yet. So we don't know. So this is not in your control whatsoever? No, we submitted the paperwork many, many years ago to be in compliance. Thank you. So I'm curious how Chalani and Dorothy and Andy, do you feel in this situation that it's helpful to define temporary? And in the way that we've defined temporary in other situations like temporary use of the common and things like that, that's short-term. But do you think that are you all comfortable with this as written or do you feel like it should be a time restriction or a classification restriction, like emergency, non-emergency or what? For me, I guess I completely agree that in instances like something broke and we're off doing whatever we do in our time. Yeah, you all should have that call. You're the experts on this and droughts are not gonna get less common. And so I think it makes sense to consider what it means to be temporary versus what it means to be a community-wide community-wide conservation of water. Dorothy, any thoughts? Yes, I don't think it's gonna be as simple as use of the public way. I would not want to define this thing clearly. I would want to include something that says that we expect DPW to let us know what's happening and that when appropriate, the town council will vote on it. But I really wanna keep it very loose. I want them to be able to do the right thing at the right time without having to wait for a meeting. Okay, so then Dorothy, how do you determine when it's appropriate? Like, do we have a meeting and we vote? Cause then we'll be driven. I have to, when it comes to water, I have to put my faith in the DPW. So then we are not experts on water. I fully agree with you. So I would put, they would inform us of changes in regulations and water use to restrictions as appropriate and the town council. Yes. Yep, okay. Absolutely. Okay, so you wanna leave this as is? Yes, so I'd love to hear Paul's comment on it. Okay, let's hear from Guilford first cause he has his hand up and then Paul can think of his comments. Guilford? Actually, as we talk it through, I mean, we wrote this because we do this all the time and you guys brought up some valid points. So let us play around and let us write it a little better and be a little more clear of what we're gonna do and we'll give it that language to you. How's that? That sounds great. I appreciate it. Where my mind was going, Dorothy, just to clarify what I'm thinking about when I think of temporary. So when I was on conservation commission, we would issue emergency certifications, right? Where work had to be done in an area because it was an emergency. And yeah, we probably would have permitted it if we had known that that dam was gonna break or whatever. And they came to us after the fact. And so I think that there's elements here that might be worth exploring, right? Like after the fact, they go to the commissioners or they at least inform them, the water commissioners or I can see it in emergency cases and we know droughts are gonna be long and we know that they're gonna come up more often. And so I can also see our constituents and our residents wanting to understand why these things are happening. And if we don't know that they're happening or why they're happening, we can't necessarily advocate for them. So I think that there is a little bit of a balance and I fully agree with you that these folks are the experts and they should have the bigger, the much bigger say in the matter. I think it's an interesting point you brought up that whatever is here should match or relate to some of the language and procedures for the conservation committee. I keep giving really bad examples. That is really different because those are like really official permits and stuff, but yes, yeah. Thank you, Gullford, that sounds great, Paul. Yeah, and I think the goal on this is to avoid conflict and create clarity. And I think if you say, if there's an emergency, the utility, the management has to be able to say there's a fire, we have to tell everybody to shut down or there's a major water main break. But if it's a five day or more, you might, I mean that's what Gullford will think about in terms of if there's something in state law or something or state regulations we can tie it to, then it's more of a public relations thing as much as saying the public knows that we're asking for this and you have said, yes, we need to do it and we've justified it. So I think differentiating a little bit makes sense. But also so that it's clear, so when there is, because these are dramatic situations when they happen, we wanna be clear about who has the authority to do it. We don't want there to be conflict about who gets to say it when there's a difference of opinion. Absolutely, yeah, thank you. Moving down to five, nope, no, six C, six A, letters are hard, $10,000 a day of such a violation. So a couple of people flagged this partially because two of us believed that MGL limited us to $300 a day and for non-criminal violations. And so we wanted to check that. The other person was like $10,000 a day, oh my God. So can you explain why $10,000 a day? Can you confirm that that is not in violation with the non-criminal statutes of MGL? And... Well, we've been trying to confirm it. We haven't confirmed it yet. Just so you do know, the fine for the water utility, if we do something, the DEP would find us $24,000 a day is the minimum fine they have and they have the right to suspend, to cut that in half by 50%. So... Yes, but you are... There is the possibility... There is a possibility if someone in the utility could cause a fine for the utility by doing something they're not supposed to do and give us a fine at $12,000 a day. I'm very sorry that that happens to you. And it would be great that if we could confirm that it is not a violation of that non-criminal penalty. So I will eagerly await your answer. And then the last thing, I think this is the last thing, going way down to the appendices, we are on agricultural use. So a couple of things, small thing, wait, hang on. Is the requirement that the owner... Oh, so let me clarify. This is not only for land and APR, correct? This is for any land that's being used as agricultural regardless of whether it's in APR or not. Yeah, the way it's written, they're supposed to be in APR. You can post me in APR. Is that too restrictive is the question? In your opinion? I mean, that's an opinion. I mean, I'll say that these regs were voted on by the... I guess it maybe was the select board at the time, but were voted on by the select board to give an allowance for at least the agricultural. And we were trying to draw a very clear line between somebody having a garden and watering their lawn versus true agricultural use. So a farm. So I thought we said it was either APR or... Zone. Yeah, 61A. Yeah. Yeah, so, right. Yeah, so for... It's down below. It's right here in definitions. Yep. So the question, I guess... Okay, never mind. Andy, what's your question first? No, it's not a question. It's a comment that I was on the select board then. So I... When we created this policy, I think it's important to note that it really arose because people who were in agriculture didn't like the idea that they were being paid to pay for the water, for the sewer portion of what we normally pay for, because they were drawing water that was never going to get into a sewer system because it was being used for agricultural purposes. And the whole process was established to differentiate between what they would use in their homes that would be going back into the sewer system because it's not different from anybody's house and what they're using for agricultural use and that they had to be able to separately meter that and they had to do that at their own expense. And that was the whole structure and why it was set up. And we got lobbied fairly hard by people through the Agricultural Commission to do that change. So the other thing that I've heard from Amy and Guilford can confirm this, I think I've asked a question before at some meetings is that there's been less use than we anticipated because of the cost of changing out systems is not small. Thanks, Andy. You're prompting me to ask the question, though. I don't know what you're talking about. But I'm not sure what you're talking about. We have separate water regs and separate sewer like regs. Like they are metered differently now. So people who aren't agricultural aren't paying necessarily extra because it's going back into the town sewer. Right. Like people who have town water, but private septic. Right. Okay. And just making sure I'm comprehending that. Okay. Yes. Okay. If what Andy is saying was the impetus for this, do we still need it? Yes. Okay. Thank you. I think we have. Why? We have one. Three. I think it's maybe three in the past four years that have gone through this process and. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'll say for the benefit of the town, it also means that these people that are doing agricultural, you know, we'll make you not pay for sewer, but we're going to put that device on there so that we're getting you into compliance with this other reg that you maybe weren't in the past. And you know, for us, that's a great exchange. Yeah, that sounds great. And, and to confirm for the seventh time, other people who aren't necessarily paying for sewer through their water, they're just, they pay for sewer through their sewer. Right. All the sewer bills are based on your water consumption. Right. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So you don't. Since you don't have sewer, you don't, yeah, you don't pay a sewer bill. Yeah, right. Well, hopefully I don't be weird if it did. All right. So. Right. And so, okay. So then the, the question was. Oh, the agricultural water rate. Is that set when we set the water rates, Andy was that a conversation with finance and how often do we revisit that? So that's part one. Okay. I'm sorry. If you're trying to move to monthly with everybody else, do you want to move agricultural to monthly too? Or because it's agriculture and their use is more seasonal. Keep it quarterly. I don't know the answer. You know the answer to the second one, but not the first one. No, I don't know the answer to the second one. Currently right now, the water, the water rate and the agricultural rate are one in the same. We wrote it this way just to give an allowance for if they wanted to have, if you guys wanted to set a different rate for agricultural rate, which like say the town of Hadley has a separate charge for agricultural rate versus household usage. So. So yeah. And Andy, I'd love to hear from you. I do think that when it's defined as a specific rate that's approved by the water commissioners for approved agricultural water meters in my mind, it just means we need to make sure that's clear in the motion that we make when we approve our rates. And Andy, I guess that's my question for you and finances. Is that explicitly stated that it is both the water rate and the agricultural water rate. At this point, I don't think that the. Annual orders. Say that to just say we set the water rate at. The only reason to include all because I think it's just indicated. There is no current differentiation of rates. You know, we may have to do, you know, we probably could do that. The next round of orders. I think we have one already on the agenda for Monday. Yeah, you do. I'm trying to figure out if I'm making it unnecessarily more complicated or if I'm clarifying for people and I'm not, I don't know the answer to that. If we, if we separated it out. Yeah, I don't think you need a separate action because the water rate is the water rate unless you define something different. But it is defined differently. Like it has its own definition as its own rate. So I feel like we could add something that's like the western agenda for the water rate. And then I think it's important to be aware of this. If the water rate is the water rate is the water rate is the water rate unless determined. There's nothing that. There's no way that I would know what the rate is. I was just going to say if you look if you scroll back up to appendix, A that's where we have the rate and fee schedule and our intention was that's the one page that on an annual basis you change. of them without distinguishing one or the other, but that's where it gives you the opportunity to have different rates if you want. Okay, so like my small stickler side is still thinking, though, that when finance sets water rates and approves them. It says water rates, right? It's the global that that's what you're setting. All right. Okey dokey. I think that was it everybody. That was I think all of my highlights. So I will I will send this to you right now and I am oh the only yeah no I'll send this to you right the second and I'm going to start playing my screen unless anybody has any last comments to make about water. Just to ask a question so you have there's a lot of other comments in there other than the ones you highlight and you did a terrific job of walking everybody through the bigger questions. What is your intention with this document now? I'm happy to send it out to everybody. I didn't want to do that because we hadn't put it in the packet so I'm happy to send this document to Athena to or to send it to everyone and not get comments back in a group discussion. What do you want staff to do with it? Oh I was going to send this to to Amy and Guilford. There are some of these that are small changes. There are some that that are I think quick answers so I would love to hear their responses to it whether that's in writing or in person. In writing is actually easier. It for like that would be my preference so they don't have to come walk us through the that in a meeting. So do you want do you want to take the the track changes document that you have an add comments? Do you want us to take it and revise it and come back with a clean document? I would like to send the track changes and they're not necessary. There's like small editing changes. There's not any substantive edits. There's there's just questions and so the questions might lead to edits but we need their responses first. So you want them to work from this document, add their comments on to the track changes document with the comment sections right and then send it back to you. Okay that was my thought. Does anyone else want to see it done differently? Amy and Guilford does that work? Great. I'm also going to send you the sewer regs in advance so that you can make comments on those as well and that way we can look at your comments fresh and I do truly apologize that I didn't get that for you this one. Dorothy? I would suggest that Guilford and Amy devise some shorthand for some of the answers such as thanks for the clarification, not applicable, leave it as it is or whatever because just to keep the job from being too onerous. Having been in many meetings with Guilford in the past year, I am confident that he will tell me very clearly if I should know the answer or if he's already answered it. Guilford I say that with care. I don't say that as a bad thing at all but yes I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah please let us know if you're like no we're not going to do that. All right I'm turning back over to Dorothy unless anyone else has anything else to say about water regs and thank you all for going through them and thanks to the folks who sent me comments. Yeah, Shawnee. And the other thing is the list that we can get as a form of education like about the radio thing and the other thing that we want residents to look out if you can give us a list of that then we can make you we can use that to share forward and my question was yeah. I was just going to say until we approve these I wouldn't have them do the list. Yeah whichever order I don't care what when and what but just in terms of your to-do list if that's if you could add that. The other question was when do we discuss the who pays the repairs question. No I guess I thought we would get to it but I think we're not and I think that Anna brought up a lot of interesting points on that and we have to do that on the sewer regs as well. We don't have a bunch of people waiting to talk comment in the audience. So I would suggest that we then do the at the next meeting do the sewer regulations and then have our discussion because after we've gone through the whole thing because we're learning we're learning things that I think it will inform our decision on that. At least I have I've learned some things today which are important and then have that discussion. Committee members or anyone you can weigh in on this. So I'll jump in. So how do we define it in the water regs? I didn't right so it's it's in here in a couple spots. Guilford and Amy I don't know if you have any if you can point me to a specific spot where we were talking about responsibility. Let me I can try to find it. It's on your service section. Thank you. Because it's going to apply to both water and sewer. Yep. So if you if you look at the document what would be helpful I think is if we could come up with what language we would recommend that they they do put in or can you share that section? I'm trying to find it sorry. Okay. Guilford what did you just say two seconds ago that I was looking for? In the services look under water service. Okay water service. My recollection from the finance committee that the calculation so we made were from the water main to the property line. And that that was the only that was the part that we were thinking was most likely to be shifted because the cost is so uncertain and variable from the property line to the to the interior of the house that depends upon the landscaping. There are a whole lot of factors that was put into the finance committee report that addressed all of the problems if you were to do that both financial and as far as applicant how to even determine that club applicability. And I think that the largest objections that we were hearing is a council were from people who felt that it was unfair to pay for things that really were in the street. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So to be clear this isn't it wouldn't be a separate conversation or a separate vote it would be we we change this section right of the water rights. And so if if folks would like to go through the water rights and send me proposed language that'd be really helpful or any other comments that you have on this on this section that would be great. So I would suggest I think what I'm hearing from counselors is that they want to say the line should be at the property line for maintenance. Right. That's what I've heard from several counselors. So maybe you can ask Amy and go for to suggest language that would accommodate that and then they can you can look at that side by side. I think there's some concern about when that gets implemented because we don't have a budget to do that but it'll be a good we should know what that the council should see what that language looks like. Yes. I actually had the discussion about that today as finance committee chair because of the fact that we've already proposed rates for FY 23 beginning July 1 and it is that are on the agenda from Monday. And so we can't really charge the extra amount that would have to be charged to cover the fund paying that expense. So I think that it would have to be for something that would be implemented effective at the beginning of FY 24 which that would be July 1 of 23. Okay. So let me add another note that says cost of my challenge. Yeah. I agree with everything that's been discussed so far about that. My question was about some of the people and this is not retrospective right. So some of the people who are already incurred damages or are currently undergoing that is there any way to support them? As a practical matter and speaking again from the finance committee discussion of it it would seem that the answer is no because if you start doing that then you're putting the burden goes on to the enterprise fund but the enterprise fund hasn't calculated rates that would pay for that. So it would end up causing a deficit in the enterprise fund and I'm not sure that that's something that we'd be ready to recommend. I mean I can go back to the finance committee to talk about that but I think that's what the reservation is. Yeah just have a follow-up question. No I completely understand that Andy and is do we have any space any place any funds for seniors or I don't know are there any other miscellaneous sources not for everyone but just people of limited income or seniors with limited income? The town doesn't but there are there may be programs out there for people who are truly limited income who might qualify. I can we can talk to the senior center that would probably be required income documentation but I don't know if it's retrospective again. Right but even if you could offer that as resources to people that I can ask Haley about that yeah. That would be great thank you. Dorothy is there a possibility of if there is a fine of something that we would in our future revised regulations would they would not have it incurred and they don't pay the fine but that the town puts a lien on the house so that that is paid when the house is sold is that a possibility to do business like that? That's mostly how most of the unpaid water bills are handled is you don't pay your water bill it gets eventually it gets leaned on your property. Right because that would be one way somebody could deal with this if they don't have the money for it which you know large amount of money. All right great so just to confirm we've gotten a lot of the answers here I'm going to send this along I'll take out my highlights because they mean nothing and then that's probably the most significant substantive change all the other ones are more clarification and things like that other than what we've discussed. All right great so I think I think we're ready to wrap up I'm 10 minutes before I wanted to be oh sorry go ahead Gilbert. So the water and sewer regulations are very similar so when you send us the water ones we'll look through that and then go back to the sewer ones and take some of the comments you've made and assume those will be probably the same comment you'll make on the sewer ones and make those changes as well if that's okay. That sounds great there's only a couple differences I think you're absolutely right on with that. Okay thank you. All right Dorothy meeting is yours. Okay well it's a 25 after eight and we have a few things to do. I can find the public comment I mean then that may be called here we go okay so we will call for public comment. I'm so sorry I meant to say goodbye to Guilford and Amy and I totally forgot good I think we're done with them okay so thank you very much so much sorry guys thank you thank you and thank you to Anna Oldson for putting all of this together and making it a very entertaining meeting of water. Water and sewer they're really you know exciting areas and we've learned a lot it has been interesting okay it's like even those finance hearings every Tuesday and Thursday have been actually very interesting. Okay attendees I'm going to ask attendees if anyone wants to make public comment if so please raise your hand and then Athena will let you in and you'll say your name and address okay I think it's going going on okay so we come back to our meeting and in public comment. Do we have any appointments filed with the town clerk I have done solar bylaw working group yeah I was going to suggest we do the solar working group and then we hold the minutes and adjourn because we said we'd try and get out by 30 and that's right. So the names were not added to the agenda so I'm not sure if the TSO committee can actually act on it but I mean the name was on the so I'm not sure you can act if you have any questions so so we'll be on the agenda for Monday's meeting but won't be on the consent agenda we see them though in some previous documents I send them to the council like I always do and I look to Athena for more guidance on this so TSO reviewed and recommended appointments to the solar bylaw working group at their previous meeting and those will be on the council agenda on consent on Monday and there will also be because these are new set of appointments came in past the 48 hour deadline for this meeting the set of appointments will be on the agenda with a waiver of council rule 8.6 thank you very much and the waiver and approval will be on consent okay sounds great and we have approval of the minutes of May 19th 2022 any comments or questions okay then I'm ready to hear a motion to I move to re-approve the minutes of May 19th and do we have a second thank you Anna all right all those in favor I will call on you Shalini yes Anna yes Andy yes and Dorothy's yes okay so unanimous with one absent they've approved the minutes and the only other item I guess it's not on here agenda preview I did have one but I don't know what happened to it I don't see it now um we maybe it's on this report okay okay we do need to look at it okay okay so next meeting June 16th um Paul will we be having the transportation advisory committee charge and roll discussion or would that be coming at a later time I will be coming at a later time I'm as Tracy's athian today and uh it's there's a lot of there's different versions of the charge and recommendations so we agreed that she and I would work on it we would work with Guilford and Chris and then the tack and then once we are able to bring something that's more relevant and and sort of discussable with you we would bring it to you for your for your review okay great okay so then the other item that was on for June 16th is speed limits will we be ready to discuss that on the 16th so I can have a memo to you for that and I think we we had planned on the first we can have that a memo to you on what that means basically yes okay and then we had June 30th this is going to and can I just before you leave the 16th we're light let's see it's the 16th we're likely to have a slew of appointments mostly re-appointments so you'll have a whole bunch of uh things like that listed okay very good um will we be able to talk about community impact assessment on June 30th and that's something I was in the minute so that we were going to do that I know Shalini had asked questions I'm not quite sure what's involved and we had down July 30th town gown relationships otherwise I don't know what else we would be discussing yeah Shalini is that the community engagement impact question what is it well it's my notes that community impact assessment um I think this was in our discussion with the CPO's I mean I was actually going to ask if you can put the community engagement because I have some ideas put together from different research I've been doing and in communication with Paul and Brianna and so maybe yeah by then I will have a more formal document that I can send to you is a starting point for a discussion on community engagement for from the town council perspective like from the committees and town council perspective that would be for June 30th okay and Paul will we have anything concrete to discuss I mean we we all can talk on town gown relationships but will we have anything concrete or that that you would want us to be discussing on July by July 30th I don't I can't promise anything by July by June 30th just given where the pace of things or July 30th yes it was July these are dates that were in the notes and I found them oh July 30th possibly yeah okay so then my next question and this will be the last well the last one too I'm asking you is do you see something else that we should be discussing in the upcoming TSO meetings this summer or should we reduce the number of meetings that we're having this summer so I think you could well the thing that is on my plate is the tack uh or transportation advisory committee um charge and when I talked with Tracy and I thought we would be taking it take a couple months to work it through the sort of tack and the staff here so that would happen at the end of the summer most likely um so I don't have other things for TSO at this moment I'm not sure what could get referred to you though okay um Anna um Dorothy I think you might have had a type of July 30th as a Saturday so um oh so you think it really was June 30th yeah so so I would I would note that I thought of checking that no it's fine no worries I just wanted to make sure that people weren't like planning on that for a certain day so we're I'm going to put down I'll just say July okay just cross off the 30th and say July we maybe have a chance to do that okay and Shalini I had a question about the in-person meetings after July 15th is that also for committee meetings yes unless the legislature passes additional legislation there is they're likely to pass something um yeah okay but at this moment in time there isn't law that goes beyond July 15th right okay and then can I I mean not suggest but just alert that they could be a TSO item that might happen if the town council some of us who are working on zero waste by law um universal composting if everything is in place then that might get referred to TSO after June 30th okay all right so we I mean we could certainly do that as an information session but you think that's after June 30th you might have a possibility okay so July might be town and gown might be zero waste um we have a and will we be ready on June 30th which I assume is the right date but I haven't checked it at this moment for the community engagement and community impact uh Shalini um do you want to take charge of running that meeting okay very good yes be nice so that means that if you want us to do anything you have to send us some emails and ask us to do something ahead of time otherwise we'll just come excited to hear what you have to say yeah I can send the tentative like a starting place format or a set of questions and stuff and then people can go through it and then at least provide us something to start the conversation off and see where it goes so are community impact and community engagement two separate things are they the same thing I think they're two separate things um what is community impact I don't know it was it was something that the CFO officers were talking about and um and then there was something about a series of questions I mean I that word I think oh sorry I didn't mean to interrupt please do please so I think one of the things we were talking about was what a community impact assessment would mean if we applied it to changes that we were making like by-laws and so what would we need to know what would we need to ask that was my understanding of community impact assessment um and that would be something that we would pitch I guess to to the council yeah okay yeah okay so yes and we've been sort of doing that in the CRC I think that's what we call it community impact and that would be part of the community engagement which is that when we're making these by-law changes or something then getting a sense of what is the impact going to be on different aspects of the community so that's one part but then also what is the impact on the economy you know the economic impact the environmental impact so you're looking at any decision that we're making what is the different impacts on it so I think the community the community engagement thing will cover at least some of it that because that is part of the question is yeah okay I don't want to go into that because that would be deliberation but yeah. Shalini I am remembering that in the early CRC Meg Gage came and made a presentation of a list of community impact questions that would be every time you do something you're supposed to say how does it affect this how does it affect that exactly all the way down yeah and that is connected to but separate from community engagement yeah and I think I'm looking yeah and I'm looking at it in a broader way where that that will be part of the bigger engagement question okay so that sounds fine and that will be helping us to think through the outreach in TSO um shall I adjourn the meeting or entertain a motion through the meeting for the meeting to be adjourned who would like to make that and yes okay or can I just say the meeting is adjourned meeting is adjourned okay thank you everyone and thank you Anne again thank you Nina thank you Paul thank you good night