 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm honored to be joined by John Sparrow of the Violent Femmes. John welcome to the show. Oh, thanks for having me Bert I really appreciate it. Sure. This is really cool, man Today we are talking about the love of Slingerland you you're a collector. You're a restorer You're just a Slingerland superfan. So absolutely. Why don't we talk about first? What got you into Slingerland? Well, my father's a drummer And actually my my dad played with this polka, you know, Frankie Yankovic is he's a polka king So my dad's he's a drummer and at some point he was he had Semi-retired from playing out and he decided he was going to pull out the drums clean him up It's actually a great story because well, his kid is a 54 Slingerland radio king And I'll never forget he was cleaning up the kit and he he took the heads off Well, there are cat he would there were the original capskin heads and he was washing them in a sink And I said oh, I didn't know any better. I said, is that how you do that? You know, like you can just like wash him with soap and water and he said yeah, yeah, so Um, obviously, you know, he had he had the Slingerland kit And then I started learning it through him and I was I was exposed to Jean Krupa and Buddy Rich and It was Slingerland drums and um You know that that was the sound, you know, I didn't know any different I mean, of course, I saw different clips with Buddy playing Ludwig It was it was the Slingerland thing and actually That what really kind of solidified that whole love of Slingerland was that we had a drum shop here in Milwaukee And I'm sure I don't you may have even heard of this this fellow It was a Faust music And bill Faust the proprietor Was a huge huge Slingerland Fan himself. I mean he of course he sold all different, uh, you know lines of drums But he pushed Slingerland heavy And so when it came time to like, oh, I'm gonna have my own kit now I mean I learned on my dad's kit, of course, but now it was time to get my he pushed Slingerland And really, you know, Gene Krupa, you know, that's that that's the big it's the sound it's that's that's, you know And I love that music So that really kind of got me into As far as buying and thinking about what I'm gonna play Slingerland drums And then of course I hung around the drum shop like so many of us. I'm sure Sure, you know of a certain age group. We had we had that uh opportunity It's it's of course nowadays that's changed Yeah But uh to hang out with him and hear these stories, you know, I you know, he had Gene Krupa on his floor It did, you know, he had done clinics and he was you know, he was friends with the Slingerland family You know, this is Bill Faust here in Milwaukee So, you know, and it became this it was almost like a, you know, a mystical in some sort of way I don't know. I don't explain it. But yeah, that's bill Yeah between my father and and you know, of course watching videos Gene Krupa and Bill Faust It really became this this fascination with with the drum line As aside, you know, aside from the restoration, all those different things. It was just the love of the brand It was prestigious, you know, I mean Like any other company, you know, it's Ringo Starr in Ludwig, you know, he's think about how many kits he sold Gene Krupa sold a lot of Slingerland. So that's kind of how I got the buzz on the brand Just, you know, the drums themselves, you know, aside from all the other stuff. So yeah, that's that's kind of my story It is prestigious. I feel like there's something about Slingerland and maybe it's partially because it's It's not around anymore. Well, it's, you know, it's possibly coming back, which we can talk about more later, but um, it's that sort of like You know, it's just iconic and I feel like it's a very It could be because of gene, but it's a very classy brand very classy drums like the radio king and the It's just yeah Nice, it really is. You know, it's funny to say because we I literally got goosebumps when you said that because I think about the radio king and I think about gene krupa and his sound and I was such a fan I mean my favorite album is the Carnegie Hall concert And you can and think about, you know, how archaic that recording quality was in those days Yeah, sure and you can still hear that the way the radio king rings and it's got it's got this home It's it has a tone. It's got a sound of its own Yeah, I usually try to do this where I can direct people like as you're listening to this if you want More of a deep history dive. I think within the first 10 episodes I'm pretty sure I did one with mark cooper that's a but more based in the history of the family So people can check that one out too for that and then there's jim moritz did An episode called growing up slingerland, which was when the first three because his dad worked for slingerland And it's full of tons of good information. So those are other slingerland episodes People can check out to get, you know, some other history background, but what we're going to be talking about today is more Some highlights With the drums and the gear and some stories through the decades That you've learned in your experience as a restorer and just again a fan and picking up that kind of stuff You know, it's funny because uh Of course, I had those early those early stories about what got me into the the whole slingerland brand But um, it was really what's really cool about it And I mean, I know this holds true with all the other brands, but eventually You know through selling on ebay and you know being on a drum forum or whatever wherever, you know, where I was You know checking and researching. Yeah, there's such a fraternity Of all these fantastic people that I've gotten to meet Just because that's because of our love, you know, so yeah, it's really it's really something special. Yeah Yeah, it absolutely is and I'm sure that's with other instruments, but there's just something there's something so cool I mean, we're drummers. We're we're the best, right? Well, absolutely You know, and there is a fraternity with drummers as well So which I actually really appreciate and we there's very little ego involved and we love to share information Just like what you're doing here with the podcast and yeah, you know So it's it's fantastic. It's just a learn. Yeah, so absolutely. All right. Why don't we go back? And you know take it back as far as you want and we can just kind of pick pick a start date And then we'll just go through The decades and then we'll end when the brand basically stopped and was shelved and then returned but Go ahead and uh and kick it off here You know, so like we were speaking about before we started the podcast is kind of catching up and You know seeing where you know what we were going to do with all this and um, that is My experience really uh as far as restoring and playing The slingerland brand for me it started, you know, and really my any kind of not like true knowledge I have it started in the 30s as far as the brand and obviously I'm not that all I'm saying Yep, I had a what we would call like garage find in this case. It was an attic find. Okay. Yeah, so it was uh, um That had to be I think it was a mid mid to late 30s radio king set And a friend of mine who's not much he's he's you know, he was a hobbyist He said hey, listen, I got I have these drums He might be interested and you want to look at him and I'm like, okay And I was in my 20s. So I didn't have much money And I said, well, I don't know if I can buy a man But you know, we'll figure something I'll call him. I will at least look at him And it was this radio king set and it was white wearing prop just beautiful and actually I don't remember the the tom mount Really offhand But the point is is that that was my introduction to really a true introduction to like restoring So I did the same thing. I was it took the calfskin heads off the original calfskin heads And washed them and but then I started learning about the hoops You know, oh, why are they why are they dolly? Well, those are nickel nickel plated as opposed to chrome plated Yeah, and uh, so that's when I started kind of Really learning about the the intricacies, you know of of of the drums and and of course, you know When we got into the war time, which I've never personally come across any of the wooden Yeah, rolling rolling bombers. Oh, beautiful. I've seen them of course at all the drum shows, but yeah Yeah, my my fascination and experience started in the 30s. Of course, they had a deeper longer history before that Sure I mean like these I was thinking of a story when we were talking about the calfskin heads about You know slingerland and Ludwig, they would rush down to the uh To the stockyards, right? Is that and they were trying to get the hides? Yeah, and they would fight over You know who was getting the better quality hides. Yeah, I love those stories, you know and I do too and and just a um I don't know the pride, you know that obviously I'll put pride in their instrument But yeah, I mean it was my experience started in the 30s. My dad's kit was again of 19 I think that was 54 and uh, yeah Yeah, and then trying to find parts because he didn't like the He didn't like the alarm mounts that they were using those days. So he threw them in a garbage so So then I and I believe that they were using those They started, you know, and I again, I'm not Totally an expert, but I believe they started using those in the 40s these these the brackets You know that actually mount on the bass drum Sure, you know I'm learning about, you know what the drummers went through and my dad in the 50s Uh, so yeah, it was this like right around the 30s the stuff from the 20s. I don't really have much knowledge on and um But I mean of course as a croupa fan. I've I've seen the pictures. Yeah. Yeah, let me let me ask you real quick. So Um, I'm always maybe it's just I feel like it's partially branding. It's the name radio king. I just love it I've never actually played one. I I almost bought a set and then I sent it to brooks teggler who's just kind of a a legend in the slingerland world and I think he was like you might want to watch out for it, um, but Radio king so as far as I understand radio king was kind of just a name that was put on a bunch of different things what what was the the time period Of radio kings because as far as I know it kind of ends in the 50s, right? Right. Well, see now and that's you know, and I can't say for sure. I know but right they were they The snare drum and it's it's actually kind of ironic because I have the um, you know, I bought it on eve It's like the blueprint of the radio king snare drum the patent that they had to send in And if I'm not mistaken, I think they were granted that In it was like it's if I'm not I have it here. I wanted to say it was it was on my birthday. It was july 18th or 17th In the late 30s But I don't know for you know, and yeah, then they started they started putting that name on a lot of kits But I think it essentially it started off with the snare drum I mean, I yeah, I know they were you know, they were they were putting you know, my dad's kid I can say it's a radio king. But is it a rate? It doesn't say a radio king But in the catalog it is But yeah, as far as the snare drum, you're right Uh, and I actually I highly recommend you pick up you've never played a radio king. You say, huh? I have not no Well, can you explain a little bit about what well first off happy birthday early birthday? Oh, yeah, well it's coming up Yeah, it's july 16th today. So it is I have been avoiding Thinking about it as you get older it's not as important But the radio king, you know, it's funny you bring it up and it's such an iconic sound, you know through through history and And it's it's funny because a lot of the people that I know and we all talk about this in a community Of course, it's written down Uh, you can get a good one and you can get a bad one They were not consistent. They and they a lot of them were out of round You know, they would go out of round over over time And um, and that was hard to put heads on them because they'd go out of round And I mean, you know, I hate I'm not trying to you don't disrespect the slingerland But they weren't all they there were some duds. They were duds, you know, and I mean, I know that firsthand But um, yeah, that sound is iconic again. I go back and I reference that gene krupa You know his his snare sound on the uh, Carnegie Hall concert, you know, yeah, but there is something about it Just like anything, you know, um, it has a sound of its own just like, you know, the supraphonic or a dynasonic Uh, or even an acrylate, you know, everybody they all have a Character, but yeah, there's something about that and maybe it's because I have this I'm biased because I love, you know, the mystique of slingerland, but there is something about the radio king That's just fantastic. Yeah, and it's been mentioned in a few other episodes, but it's just cool, too that Obviously radio king It was the era of radio bean king and you had your gretch broadcaster and it was just that that radio You know big bands, you know, and again, you know, uh, it's it's it's the radio king went through a lot of You know being going out of round or if you it's certain the air is like and I know I don't want to jump around too much But you know in the fifties they were using the clamshell strainer and that thing was known to cause so many problems You know, it slipped and it would break Uh, but in general I think that that that design and and and an idea Is there's something really special about it now the drums that's I'm talking about the snare drum, of course You know the kits, um That's that's a whole other thing, you know, I mean a lot of people were were doing similar things But it's that snare drum. I I really when I think of radio king I I think about the snare drum first and foremost like you're saying they were taking names on anything If you can sell some more drums and call it a radio king fantastic, you know, yeah, really so now if you if you talk about slingerland in the thirties Are there any other drum sets that aren't a radio king Does that make sense like yeah, I know what you're talking about Yeah Well, as far as I know in my experience They they were they were they they were different There were different models student models and Jobber models and things like that And as far as I know and again, you know, I you know, I'm a fan, but I'm not an expert necessarily sure, but A lot of those were all the same shells. I mean it was the mahogany with the reinforcement. You know, I mean Yeah, but it was that that snare, which was was the one ply steam bent maple, you know So You know, it's like my dad's kit didn't have a floor tongue It was I forgot what it was called. It was like ensemble kit or I you know, I forgot exactly Yeah, let me get a kit like that where I bought one at a I got one for 50 bucks And it was like and I looked it up and I was like, oh, this is actually a kit where it didn't have a floor And it was like the new yorker or something like yeah, right, right exactly You know and then say oh well this one came with this one came with wood blocks, but that one didn't Yeah, you know and Yeah, yeah, I mean that's but I think essentially it was you know, and again I could be completely wrong, but all my experience it was they were all the same shells I mean up, you know through the 30s and the 40s and I think I'm sure You know and when we start getting it, you know, and even into the 50s in the 60s They started using, you know, they were changing how many plies they were using they're going to using You know three ply maple with three and four, you know And and so on and such was yeah, and it's also while we're in the earlier years It's it's interesting too to note that slingerland was a major banjo manufacturer Yes, which is pretty cool to see the matching banjo and matching drum set And I don't know when that actually stopped or if it did or they probably kept making I want to see in the late 20s You know, I think yeah, but you know again going back Talking about the the calfskin heads Well, it wasn't you know, he was they were going down there racing down there trying to get heads also for the banjos Yeah Yeah, I want to say it was like the late 20s when they stopped with the banjos you kind of forget And they had guitars too. They were doing guitars. You know, so that's a that is a great point Probably something for another discussion But I had I've heard and I know it's debated with like the Les Paul like log or whatever But I as what I've heard Is that slingerland was the inventor of the first electric guitar and I know that's I've heard that as well and I don't want to I don't want to ruffle any feathers But I've I've heard that as well. Yeah Well, we throw it out there people can research and find out but um, it's it predated the The log or whatever it's called. You know, yeah, the Les Paul where he had Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, he's actually from Wisconsin as well. Wow less. Um, yeah okay, so The family I mean, I'm assuming just in the 30s from what I know business is just booming Drummers are going, you know, the people are buying drums. Thanks to gene krupa. I don't think that can be stressed enough the importance of his he's probably the Like gene is kind of like ringo But earlier to get people loving drums. So that had to be there. Oh, absolutely I mean, we yeah, we know the significance of gene krupa in in a drumming world in a music world Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course. Yeah, and he they yeah They sold a lot of drums gene sold a lot of drums. It's funny because I was just reading Uh, I know that the company at some point sent him a check for $2,000 I believe it was $2,000 thanking him for you know, being such a big proponent of Catalyst to help sell all these drums and he sent the check back. He said, I don't really I don't deserve this I don't think that I really was you know, what a humble guy, but yeah I mean, he can say what he and feel the way he wants, but let's be honest. He did He was the wringo for slingerling for sure. I mean, he was on every cover up until 67 if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Think about that. You know, I mean You had so many other great drummers ray McKinley, you know, I but yeah, he was the guy and you know the irony is that You know that the the Carnegie Hall concert and I don't want to get off topic here But if you put it in perspective that That recording didn't come out Until I want to believe I believe it was in the 50s. They discovered that and it came out. Wow So all this all this hype and I mean all this stuff about gene krupa It was word of mouth. Of course there were recordings Yeah, or if you had the money and you could afford to go see a show It's all based on live performance and recordings You know, but that whole big boom what we know of gene krupa and You know that didn't serve us till the 50s. So that says a lot How you know that guy what kind of an impact he had on on the slingerling brand, you know God, yeah Unbelievable. I certainly believe that that that Carnegie Hall recording was Really what I know it really revitalized a lot of their careers Yeah, sure, but it really I guess it solidified it, but yeah, I mean You know, there was no Ed Sullivan No, no again, there's no tv. It's all the the radio. It's yeah, think about that I mean, you know, that's really something that says a lot to have that kind of an impact and You know for you know and help the company sell drums like this. Yeah, you just think of families sitting around Looking at the radio, you know hearing ads for oval team. Maybe you read a Downbeat magazine or you know, yeah, yeah Okay, so in in the 30s any other stuff going on before we move into the 40s Obviously radio kings gene all that stuff any other 30s notes you know I mean And that's what I can think of and it's funny because I'm actually kind of excited to get to the 40s and and And talk about, you know, uh, the idea of Now we're in wartime. Yeah, and now we have to change We're changing logs because we can't we're you know rationing. Yeah And wow, you know, think about, you know, of course things are, you know, without getting too deep We're not going to get into it. But you know, we're in turbulent times now Now they're going there now you think about in the 40s and it's wartime And how it affected the manufacturing of these instruments where they started having to change What they use, you know for for materials. I mean that grows my mind. It's it's really crazy. Yeah, that's People who listen to the show know that that's like one of my favorite parts of this is just what the brands were doing during that time and what they were Because a lot of the brands were just like you're now gonna make And I always forget I need to like write it all down But I know rogers was making like gauges for airplanes. There's just different things that Company was pulled into to doing like I was saying before Before we were recording like premier was doing Sites for anti-aircraft You know guns and it's just crazy. So And I know diversifying, you know, I guess I guess we obviously we still see that nowadays Oh, yeah, like a company like 3m is gonna make a mask and then they're gonna make uh tape, you know, exactly Yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean that's that's the nature of of business. I suppose and they they have held up pretty well And there's guys out there like, uh, joe mechler joey boom who does who's been on the show does a lot of great wartime drum restorations and cleans up that wood and I just got seen like The wooden pedals and I saw his collection at the chicago show like Wooden snare stands Wooden floor tom legs. It's just It's really yeah, right and it's again like you were saying The sign of the times and how it affects Like in this case drums and what you know, and you see that I mean we see that now too as You know as as the history of no matter what company it is You know as the economy waxes and wanes you see Uh, you know the screws that are used and after using softer softer metal because it's cheaper, you know, I mean these all these little things are Let's like for example, let's we can even talk about the canister throne Yeah, you know, uh, I know in my case and I'm maybe I'm spoiled now, but I don't I mean it it makes sense for a jobbing drummer in those days to be able to throw all that stuff right into a canister throne And go, you know, I'm spoiled because I we we just throw it into a case and then somebody, you know, they move it out But as a jobber and I and I'm not seeing it. I wasn't I didn't just hop into this world You know, it's quote unquote success, but I mean I was a jobber and I had those those those coffin those big coffin trap cases That was that was a pain. So there was a lot of brilliant things because there was, you know, so many more jobbers Uh, I think you know, unfortunately right now with everything going on. There's there. There's no jobbers. Yeah, but um You know it really because it went from a drummer being in for example, like in in the early 1900s Doing a theater show. So well, there was you know, you would you didn't have a bunch of you had hardware But it was separated and all the gear was in a theater. It stayed there You know, maybe you weren't moving around as much or if you did go to do another gig in a theater The gear was already there, you know, I mean there was already equipment there So that's another thing where once you started seeing the drummer in this case because the trap kit came together and now We're moving around jobbing Um, that was that was one of those things where it's like wouldn't it be great if the seat Was the case, you know, it's brilliant. I love that, you know, it is I'm a I'm a big fan of canister thrones, of course You know, you know, I've I've cool. I've never I've never used a canister throne. I've sat on I've plated them I there's there's a drum shop here in Cincinnati called badges and I've sat on one there because he has a new one I think dw still makes them. Uh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and air just which is actually brilliant. Yeah Well, well, I was gonna say so back in the day I know I've seen pictures of like buddy using them and he's just completely bent over like So you're not adjusting the height. I guess you're raising your snare stand. You're moving your other stuff to adjust to your Throne, you're right. Yeah, correct. Well and buddy, I mean, that's yeah, that's his style But yeah, yeah hidden and yet I was just talking about this with another colleague Is that, you know, I put so much time and not to get off topic But I put so much time into my posture because I read all these books about buddy rich having back or elvin jones having back problems Yeah, and you look at that and he was always hunched over, you know, yeah, but yeah, I mean I Nonetheless, yeah, they would you could raise everything up. But I yeah, I was I love that I you know, again going back to slingerland that was the thing I would see gene on a canister throne and Again, it was a sign of the times, you know, now we have jobbers and they're moving around, you know, and it matches in the 40s Yeah, or a box. Yeah, I've seen those two of those pictures. They're like boxes. They're yeah, but they're to see Yeah, I love that stuff. Yeah, it's really interesting So 40s and I wanted to look it up It's so that the l 37 is the the kind of like edict from the government where they said That's the name of it where it said to companies like you need to stop using I think it was they could use 10 percent Metal or something like that. So that's what created these Unbelievable wooden drums. Yeah, they had a they had a ration. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, isn't that something, you know And then as far as the 40s um I'll tell you the two things that stick out of my mind the most as far as when it came to slingerland Again, I love slingerland, but they had a lot of bugs. They had to work out and I think one of them Again, I mentioned it earlier. It was that l arm mount Yeah, it was it, you know, they didn't I now I say this word wrong if the you know, like the Nerling or a curly. I forgot how you say that on the l arms. They didn't have that so you'd have a nickel It's smooth nickel l arms and those those Those brackets they it just didn't work And so my the reason my dad threw them away Because they they stuck around until the 50s Was because they would slide you would see these if you ever seen any of these videos a gene or buddy playing and a ride Simo slides. Well, they're playing in fall collapses. Yeah, you know, it just wasn't working out you know, um So I and again, I hate to be I don't want to be negative because now but it's true But they had a lot of bugs. Yeah, they had a lot of bugs to work out the other one that was always an issue Were the Tom mounts the Ray McKinley It was like a I don't know if I believe that's what they call it was the square more of a rectangular square Mount that was nice um But it was those the other ones the consulate those would slide they would always be slipping um And of course so they worked out, you know, they had to work out a lot of bugs It's it seemed like yeah, when you start getting into the late 40s into the 50s They started kind of working a lot of those bugs out Well, that's so common. I mean, what did your dad put on? In place of those so he just would use this regular symbol stand Got it. Yeah, and oh man, and yeah, and I'll tell you I was when I when I started restoring his kit I was so mad at him. I said, well, what did you do with the L arms and the brackets? Oh, I threw him away What? And I'm trying to call these, you know, I'm the 16 year old kid and I'm trying to call and we didn't have the internet, you know And I'm trying to call these drum shops and I'm trying to explain to these guys and they're like, yeah, no Literally they'd say why do you want that? It never worked And I said, well because I'm trying to restore my dad's kit But um, yeah, so he would just use this, you know, regular symbol stand That's funny. Okay, but you know again, like I hate, you know, you don't want to be negative But I think a lot of people A lot of these companies, they had to work out a lot of bugs and Slingerland was one of them, but I can tell you All those drums aside from the snare Always They had a woody There was a sound there, you know, there was really a sound now. Is it the heads? Is it the tuning? Could you get that same sound out of a gratch? Well, I don't know I mean because I was a slinger like I was a slingerland nut. You know, I'm trying to figure out. Wow Is this is uh, are these lugs from this kit that I found? Is this chrome or is it nickel because it's really bright And why did I use nickel on this kit? Well, you know, and then trying to figure it all out and it seems like, you know, even That far back there was an inconsistency as far as How they put kits together, you know, I mean like oh, yeah for sure, you know, like Uh, you know, we can get into the whole, uh The badge in the serial number thing, which you know, that that's an issue that goes across the board as far as all these drum companies Why, you know, and and this is the thing that we all sit at and run and talk about at these drum shows Well, wait a minute. This isn't this isn't really all original. Well, yes, it is Well, no, it's not because these are the screws they used to attach the lugs And I said, well, you know, you'll you'll have this conversation. I'll say listen, I swear This is it came from my uncle or something like that And then it becomes this then you see they start rubbing their chin really Yeah, why would they use These kind of wash that's not what they did. Well, you know, maybe it's friday, you know, I don't care if it's the 20s You know, I And that's the fascination to and with drum and you know the collecting and all that in general But I love that I love singer, you know, like why would they have chrome plated hoops? And all the lugs are nickel, you know, I love that stuff Because it was left over from the last run or there's a bucket there's a bucket of screws and they grabbed the wrong one Absolutely And you know, and you know, and it's this isn't just a slingling thing But you know, we all we all of us we talk about well, you know, the quality of Cars that were made in those days, you know, quote-unquote or in this case the drums Well, you know, I love slingling, but you know, it has to be noted and be fair that, you know Some of those radio kings they went out around they didn't stay around they didn't all sound, you know And that's that holds true for any company, but I have to say again, aside from the mystique Slingling when I do they had something they had they really had a sound, you know, spanning all the decades So yeah to 40s There were some issues, but those drums they stay consistent. I think that and of course that into the 50s My dad's kit is the same Same It's the same design, you know the mahogany maple reinforcements, you know, and then things changed in the 60s, of course, you know And I think, you know, that's You started and I know it won't jump ahead on you But you know the in the 50s it seemed like there was a lot of Again a lot of inconsistencies But it's not with the sound, you know, it was the hardware and things like that They were trying to iron out a lot of bugs, you know But that that sound was there. I'm not seeing all the drums, you know, some drums were duds It happens, but there is always a cons you know, I mean it was always a something about those drums To this day, of course, obviously the the sound is consistent and and It keeps going on too or throughout these decades. There was a consistent Feud with Ludwig as well that should be in the back of people's Yeah, there was like a rivalry there Like I can say, you know, reading these stories with them fighting over the hides that they were picking out at the stockyards and who got there earlier And going through the garbage and then seeing what the other people were doing. That's kind of a You know, that's that's a whole nother topic too. I mean, yeah, the whole The stuff that I had friends or not, you know I have friends that are older to me that used to go and tell me stories about digging through their Trash cans when they were in Chicago and finding things really really wild stories, you know Yeah, that's like another that's a whole nother episode the battle Yeah, sure, but yeah, so Again, you know The sound was There was a certain thing there and then of course we when we got into the 60s when they started, you know Now you start talking about you're battling with You're battling with amplifiers. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, and I of course I've heard different stories about other companies painting the inside of the shells because they were just trying to pump them out I've heard that too about Ludwig. Yeah, Slingerlin Slingerlin, you don't see a lot of that with Slingerlin um Yeah, they really stuck. I really believe that they they held true to that idea of quality, you know Yeah, and man, I just and they honed in on that, you know, I'm sorry. I have to pound pound it out It's like they've really started to hone in on the hardware in the 60s But I I guess I guess too, you know, you start thinking the demands of rock bands. These guys are playing harder So it affects the way they were making, you know, how, you know, the design of the shells They needed more projection Yep And stability and the hardware had to hold up, you know, which is which is ironic because in my mind Uh, you know, I've been I've played in heavy metal bands and I can still play, you know, an old 40s cymbal stand and I won't knock it over but I think it was the demands of the time, you know Yeah, they they really started stepping up in that regard in my opinion, you know Yeah, and I want to also mention and bring up the um So I talked with Bernie Stone who bought all the equipment about uh, yeah Yeah, he's the rate the radio frequency Machines to make their shells Which is pretty fascinating. That's the first for me I've you know, and I I guess it yeah, you know, uh, I call myself Uh, you know a huge fan, but that one I've never heard. I've never heard that story. That's amazing Yeah, yeah, I forgot to mention that before about the, you know, slingerland themed episodes, but that's so I appreciate that because you know, I guarantee you we're you know, somebody's one of us are gonna get a text Or a tweet and say well, you know, I actually were wrong, but I absolutely Please and tell me what was this whole thing about the frequency, you know, you know, and I mean I love I love it. I love very nice things. Yeah, and of course people can go check it was like, you know 20 with 15 20 episodes earlier, but basically and then we can move on but it I know that this the system was extremely technical with a lot of math and the in the numbers But what it did is it basically they put it in Put the glue in it put the you know the the actual wood the plywood if you will and then the radio frequencies quickly and Efficiently dries the glue Very fast. Boom. It's dry. They can just keep making shells. So that was the system interesting. Well, he's he knows I mean, again, what we were talking about earlier. So many there's the stories and the knowledge Yeah, there's so many things that keep coming up Yeah, you know, and I've again we can we'll get to that, you know When we talk about some of the more modern stuff because I have a lot more A lot more knowledge About somebody's crazy little stories when it comes into 90s and into 2000s, but I love that I love that we we can all share it again going back to having it be like a fraternity, you know Yeah, really So we're in the 60s here and I mean I gotta I gotta think that you know the slingerland family when they see On you know the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. They're thinking oh man Oh, I I'm yeah, I guarantee that gave them a run for their money. Yeah You know and I mean those people over at Ludwig were working around the clock And you know now if you think about it too gene now genes He's kind of getting to the point where he's slowing down And buddy was buddy his buddy As we all know and he's coming and going You know and I you know really having a a brand ambassador I think it was things were changing and I think it really was tough for them, you know and through the 60s And into the 70s it it just started It was I don't know. I you know it was hard for them to kind of Stay on top of you know, you have when you have Ringo star You know, that's he's a tough one to go against. Yeah So yeah, but they it seemed like you know, and I mean, I would you know, we can get into all the intricate parts of you know, like I say how they were doing the shells three ply or five ply Those sounds but as far as the brand It seemed like it was kind of it kind of put a little it took a little win out of their sale You know in my opinion and they had their hardware getting sorted out Uh, and then you know, of course taking uh, you know taking ideas from different company Oh, well, let's do something like this or like that But um, it seemed like they kind of went you know, this is my opinion But it seemed like they went through kind of an identity crisis there When it once once Ringo the whole late 60s and in the 70s it was like You know, they didn't really get into the whole uh Uh fiberglass drum, you know, they did that but they didn't really push that It was kind of like they're always it's and I and I again, I don't want to disrespect slaying So I love them but they seem like they're kind of a day late and dollar short on a lot of things as far as a concept As the 60s into the 70s, you know and in the 80s they started messing around with uh, you know, uh, like basically cardboard shells and trying to cut costs because of course we know Going back to that whole idea of how in the 70s in the 80s Um, you know, we were going through another financial crisis And how that affected what materials they were using and and so on and such for it and You know everything was changing so and it's funny because again as a huge fan I when I started learning about this I felt bad. I was like, oh that that kind of that sucks You know, like oh look at these shells. They're warping. Well, that's because they're made out of card essentially like glorified cardboard or carbon fiber, you know, I mean they stuck they they held true with You know, they stuck with the log designs People weren't using lr mounts anymore. So now you start getting into different designs as far as symbol stands You know in all the hardware But the design in that look again going back to that classy like the tier, you know, like There's something about those lugs the radio king lugs You know, and then of course the new design. I you know, there's something about it just beautiful They just look classy, you know art deco kind of um, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that You know, and then I think every company kind of went through some periods of time where they were always dealing with The snares trainers, you know, it's like that's the one thing that we're always grabbing at And adjusting and it's never because you know, of course we're drivers. Nothing's ever right No, you know, and that's the one thing because this, you know, like buddy rich was he was known for being He was crazy about his snare drum always, you know, it was never right But yeah snares trainers they seem to kind of get that right You know, um after the 50s But yeah, it was again, it's it was it's too bad for slingerland in those years In the 60s and 70s of course into the 80s where they lie I think they again my opinion is they lost their identity and it was hard to kind of keep up with the times You had other night, you know, I have more companies coming in here, you know, of course We could talk about vox or tricks in but I mean there was the Japanese brands. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, right You know and tamma and all that so it was tough, I think for them and um, yeah, and I don't want to jump ahead on you but The nice the one exciting part of more of the more modern period of slingerland was the 90s It's we saw, you know, because gretz had purchased the you know slingerland And buzz king, you know, he really They really gave it a strong effort and a really You know, if it seemed like there was more of a A possibility there for the brand, you know, and I again, I don't want to rush, you know And I don't want to just go over the whole 60s and 70s and 80s era, but it was a tough time for them. I really believe that Can I ask you one question about the 70s? Um, yeah, obviously it you know, it went through regular drum, you know Regular sizes, everything was great. Do you ever come across in your um, collecting the slingerland phantom the like the acrylic, um Kids have you ever seen? Well, that's what I that's what I was saying earlier. I know they I've never come across one. I've never seen one Yeah, but as we know they did they did mess around with that, but no, I've never seen any of those Yeah, gotta be super rare. I mean you just they didn't listen. I'll tell you they did some really wild stuff That people didn't know about Yeah, but there's documentation of which, you know, I have Again, I have friends that have come across some of this stuff and Really wild designs. So they were trying but no, I yeah, none of the I've never actually never seen any of that myself Yeah, I'm just looking on on a um um Looking on a forum here and it just says I don't know if this is true because the first thing I'm seeing But it says they were they were there from 72 to 73 And there you go. There's your answer. You know, I mean you have to be you know, and I again, I like to consider myself Yeah, the acrylic phantom kit. I think that's what it was called. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah I mean, I'm a fan, but no, I never and I had no I hadn't I never had any motivation There's an ad there's an ad that says uh slingerland makes one thing perfectly clear. They're new acrylic phantom Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right and of course, you know, and then like a lot of companies They were you know, they were You know to try to appeal to Who you know to the market, you know, these kits that were wrapped in a corduroy or yeah denim and you know or um Just all these different designs, you know, they were always open and willing to do that But um, yeah, I think with with a lot of these import kits Cut, you know, that started like in the 60s that when you started seeing that in the 70s and 80s Yeah, it just you flooded the market. I mean, we see it now. There's how many drum companies are out there now But um, and I guess people, you know and they're shopping for price because now you're coming into 70s in the 80s And we're going through a recession and I mean, we're lucky if we could get gas, you know Of course, sure and it's so if we're gonna buy a drum set, you mean a whole drum set You know, how are we gonna be able to you know, make make it affordable? And so you you unfortunately you cut you cut corners and I think that you know, they did that too And that's kind of a parallel to now, you know with people are hurting for money right now and absolutely. I can't even imagine I couldn't Yeah Yeah, it's it's and again it comes back to the sign of the times and seeing how They adapted or didn't you know throughout time? And so like I was saying coming into the 90s if you know, I might be kind of please do I'm I'm interested in the 90s because I don't really know what you know, yeah, and uh You started seeing you started seeing a lot. Well, I mean Regardless people are trying to cut costs. You're trying to make money And they they had a problem with like lug fasteners You know, um, they would strip For example, I had a I had a kit and I was playing and I heard this rattling in my floor time. What's going on? And I oh man screw came out, you know out of the lug So I went to try to you know after the gig put it back in it was stripped Because I got that strange. Well, well that was that was pretty common in the 90s, you know, and um Later on I actually had the the opportunity to talk to buzz king And I asked him I said, why is it that you know, all these things were you know, they I had that problem where everything was stripping. He said what was softer metal? You know, I mean it was it it was cheaper. Yeah, it's really to you know to do that and um, I did have a Slingerland light Kit for a short time And obviously the quality was you know, those were maple shells They weren't the maple mahogany maple Uh, you know the stuff that was assembled like stuff was being like Manufactured, you know machine in taiwan and sent back and and sent back for it was strange, you know, because of cost So but I can tell you that there was something about those shells Uh, they really got it right the um, you know, the artist the artist custom And the and I still have my kit and it's there's a certain sound there I you know, I can't I can't describe again coming back to You know, of course any drum manufacturer that you know, someone can say well, I have this lug weekend It's it's got to sound well fair enough But we're talking about Slingerland and they they really kind of was king really captured that the light series drums were fantastic That was her that was the top of the line and then all the you know, the artist custom it was you know Artist custom and classic if it was wrapped with white marine for all these different things But they had a sound, you know, and then they went to the uh, you know That the the the pearl type of tom mounting system and all that But essentially they stuck to that same formula same logs same floor tom brackets And then of course You know, there was always changing going on as far as uh symbol stands and thrones and all that pedals You know, that was always that's always a constant. I notice, you know But just trying to figure it out. It's interesting to me because I think as a as a A person who's looking at it from the outside, you'd think like oh 90s Slingerland, you know No, I don't want that and it's actually Kind of a parallel that I heard about like speed king pedals where where uh Vincent who's been on the show said like no the 90s speed kings were awesome. Like they were great They're more reliable. They're they're more this and that so it being From the 90s doesn't make it bad. I mean, it's just right. No, right. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're saying Yeah, well, and it's just it happens to be I think who was who was running the show, you know, and and and the decisions they were making and um again, I I praise buzz king because He and I again, I've had the opportunity to talk to him a number of times and I just told him I said, you know, there was something about those drums and he would just kind of you know laugh like he knew They really put they I really believe that you know He he was running the show and he put the time in to make those things right Yeah, he really and he did a lot of special things with slinging at that time Unfortunately, the carpet got pulled from under him You know with uh, fred gretch selling You know and that that really screwed a lot of things up Can you explain that like like what actually that that last bit there with gibson and this and fred gretch being involved Like what actually happened at the end? Well as far as I know the story is is you know again There's people that could probably tell me that I I don't have it all right But as far as I know the story is is that yeah fred gretch sold it and I think that um As far as I'm aware buzz and everybody else they didn't even realize What was happening and it was just kind of like yeah, it's it's done You know and they sold it to gibson and you know We saw a lot of sudden, you know, of course, this is maybe Well, I mean we saw a lot of it on ebay, you know a lot of a lot of all this stock just It went out to different places, you know people bought it and then they just It literally moved on to gibson And unfortunately and then we saw you know music yo and different things like that there was all this, you know excess excess stock But the carpet just got kind of pulled from underneath all those people at that time at slingerland and that that's that's a bummer and then what happened and we saw slingerland goes to gibson and gibson they had pat foley doing the finishing and uh, Sambaco and the quality was impeccable. I mean amazing. I mean they really they it's like it's like I'm not even gonna you can't equate it to you know the old slingerlands I mean because they they always had the radio king, you know That was always an option, but the drums themselves I mean the maple shells they The finishes and all that of course, it's amazing, but I Sambaco I think was the guy that was he was really more in charge of You know the shells, okay And uh, they really captured it. Unfortunately It was overpriced You know and I think and I I mean I can't say I know this for sure, but I mean Basically the attitude from what I gather is let's price it very high So it's going to attract people, you know, it's like well, it must be worth it if it's X amount of dollars You know I mean well in this case the drums were really amazing But they were too expensive. Yeah, you can't price yourself out They price themselves out that's that's my opinion And I think that a lot of us shared that same opinion, you know and then as things started kind of going and I think that Money wasn't coming in like it should be. Uh, I think Pat From what I from what I know I think he moved on to different divisions or and Sam went on to do different things and A lot of a lot. You see you have parts and you have shells and then they sent it to the Baldwin factory Where they were making pianos and I think that's where you started that's where you started seeing a lot of like the wraps were They were coming undone You know and I and I and I can't say for sure, but I think a lot of that was Okay, you're going to refinish pianos today and then on thursday We need you to wrap drums, you know, and it's like, okay. How does this work? You know, I mean and if you're handy you can figure it out But I think you started seeing like the quality control tanked And a lot of wraps were you know undone. Uh, you started seeing a lot of snare drums Uh, like, you know bearing edges were strange and uh, and then again, which is I think Kind of the norm when it comes to the drum companies inconsistencies as far as well. Wait a minute. This is a studio king Why does it have a twerking Logo, you know, I mean a sticker on ants. So it was like, all right, but the drums always really did sound great the shells were great and um Yeah, and then of course I essentially in my opinion Gibson tanked him. They they they they tanked themselves. Yeah, so then You know all that stuff was in storage and that was the that was where I started really kind of you know having a network of collectors and And you know enthusiasts and we're always talking about well, yeah, we heard it There's a warehouse and all this stuff sitting there And you know and so-and-so is just sitting on it and there's a divorce and a family You know all these different things and it's like well, that's that's you know, whatever the case is When are they gonna come back? And we're all these parts and you know and you know because we love the brand again It comes back to that that enthusiasm And then now and yeah, which kind of brings us up and you know, I guess essentially up until Oh up into uh I want to say the last few years That uh Now a good friend of mine John Alice he purchased all of that stock from them And And he's a drummer and he's you know, he loves he loves swinging. He loves the brand And he's sat on he's been he's got all this he's got all this stuff that he's sitting on And you know, he made me a few drugs. He would gift them to me You know, hey, you know, I know you're a big fan. So here and there but um it was You know, he he always stock and he was I think he was hoping that Maybe whoever the new people That would buy the the name, you know, they would they would take this equipment And um, I don't really know where any of that stands right now That's I stay out of people's personal business and all that but of course we now know that dw has bought the brand And I think that's fantastic, you know, I I you know the quality that Did I can't say enough about dw? I mean, I I I endorse a fantastic company called a nap drums Out of uh, texas and of course I love slinglin Um, but I respect dw and I really I think as a fan of the brand I think they're gonna do some great things, but it's really It's it's it's crazy to see slinglin Have such a tumultuous Uh history, you know, yeah, and it how it's affected Not only what's going on in the world, of course And the local economy or stuff to see how all these things have but they've they've somehow kind of kept going As opposed, you know in in their own way whereas rogers I know yamaha bought them some years ago You know, they just it just feels it kind of essentially fizzle out, you know, so I'm hopeful to see that dw is gonna I'm hopeful that dw is gonna, you know, they're gonna turn out some quality Quality drums. I'm sure I wonder. Yeah, what a history, you know, yeah, what a history I wonder when because yeah, because they last I heard yeah last I heard it was they were just gonna do snare drums radio king snare drums Okay, and then essentially that's kind of what yamaha did is that uh, when they bought Uh rogers, I think that was yes, it's essentially yamaha. I believe that bought them They just did the dynasonics. They introduced the snare drums, you know, which I've I've played a few of them sound fantastic And I was kind of going well, okay Well, when's the rest of it gonna come up? But I guess again, maybe it's a sign of times where it's like maybe it's just better to Put out radio king snare drums or dynasonics or Whatever it is, you know, I'll dip your toe in a little bit, you know. Yeah. Yeah, so um I'm hopeful. I'm I'm hopeful too. Yeah, I'm really hopeful But yeah, I'm a huge fan and of course like I said we we talked before we started doing the podcast You know, um, there's so many things that I constantly I'm learning about the company and You know, no, like I said, we can if we're let's say for example, you found a snare drum at a garage sale Well, you and I we could sit here and talk. Okay. Well, here's this is the strainer Yeah, they did this from this year to that year But to kind of summarize it all, you know, I try to I try to keep it a little more contained But those were the things that is as far as a fan of the brand that I always Noticed, you know, whether I was restoring or playing, you know, I'd get a radio king Oh, man, it's clamshell. I hate those things or you know, these L arms are sliding But again, I love the sound of them, you know, and history. Yeah, it really it really is they are history And I hope to see that I hope the cdw do for example what Ludwig did Ludwig really reintroduced the brand, you know a number of years or whatever Probably 15 20 years ago whenever it happened and All these other germers came back. Yeah, they're and they came but they they love Ludwig because they asked how But they grew up on whether it was wringo or just whatever. Yeah, and they really redesigned hardware So I hope the same thing for slingerland and I think if there's anybody that's going to do it It would be dw, you know, I really do. Yeah, I agree. I really do think anything's possible Like you're not you're not gone, you know, right? I'm just happy. I really honestly never thought That anybody would pick it up. I just I really thought it was dead Yeah, you know, so if there's there's hope there but again now we We're you know the sign at a times. I mean Again, you know the crazy world we're living in Maybe it's smart that I just do snare drums, but I hope that it really grows to be something more You know and and I would love to see some some great drummers. There's so many amazing drummers Out in the world right now I would hope that maybe one of you know, they could be the new gene krupa So exactly bring bring it back and represent it and you think of all these brands. There's there's been um I mean not to keep talking about Ludwig, but there's so many ups and downs in that company history That is just like they're gone now. They're back now. They're wfl now. They're back. It's like Yeah, right It's just you know, you you never count them fully out And I think that and you know what honestly think thank goodness because You know, it's nice to have not everybody's gonna be Uh Not everybody can just buy only a and f drums, you know, I endorse their guitar drums. I love them But there's there, you know, there's my you know, you you yourself or one of my other Drummer friends, they might like the son of Ludwig or sling we need to have all those different companies You do. Yeah, you know really but um, it's Yeah, it's it's it's it's the tough market like anything cars, you know, I'm a forward man I'm a Chevy man fair fair enough But um, yeah, I hope that I hope that they can Keep going, you know, yeah, you know, it's like Uh, and it's crazy because I don't know why I just was thinking but we were talking about all these other companies Like tricks in or vox where they were doing these crazy ideas. Well, maybe it's time You know what? I mean, maybe it's time for another crazy idea and something to spur interest in in the in the singlin brand, but You know, I guess it could be in a lot of ways seen as like a conflict of interest in my case But I love the story. I love the brand, you know, even though I endorse another company I love it. It's the mystique, you know, and um The excitement, you know, my dad had all the drum catalogs when I was growing up I would sit there and you know, you know, you know, you know, how we like look at all these catalogs and How the drums are set up First of all, none of those in all those catalogs. Nobody could really play those kits set up They're too spread out That hand is like on the wrong side. Yeah, right. I'm like Because of course as a as a teenager then I I would set my drum set up It was past nine o'clock at night. So I would just look at my drums and I would set them up You know, I'd like to catalog and I'm thinking well, I can't play this. No, but um, you know, it was like Yeah, there's that whole side of it, you know, looking through I had years ago I bought a bunch of old slingerland catalogs And I just love looking at it, you know, and um Looking at the setups and what they like again, we were talking about earlier jobber ensemble Windsor or, you know, the crew of deluxe, you know, and you know, it's There's that whole like the child in you that excitement, you know, it doesn't go away and never you're right It doesn't and you know what the all these companies they know that about us And that's how they get us because somehow they but um, yeah, again coming bringing it back to slingerland, um Yeah, that was my first fascination, you know when it came to drums and uh, it's again, I I hope that things I hope things are, you know, they go in a positive direction. I think they will but I you know, I actually I love the fact that you asked me to do this podcast because I love just You know, I I love talking about drums, but of course slingerland. Yeah, we love talking about drummers You know, we talk about we could talk about all the different people that endorse slingerland through the years Some come and go because they're looking for free drums or they didn't get you know, whatever it is A buddy floating around from brand to brand oh boy buddy in vox You know, you know, and you're like wow he did that, huh? Yeah, but and we know those stories but you know like There was a lot of people I believed in the brand like gene, you know Just the story again, not only did gene sell a lot of drums for them But he I mean there's of course he had a gladstone snare And he screwed around with some dynasonics, but he was dedicated to the brand, you know, it was That was of that era too. And I think that I think there's still a lot of people that are dedicated and and and You know to a brand or you know to a loyal. Yeah, loyal. Yeah But it was so many great drummers. They love slingerland and they believed in it. So You know, um It's a great story, you know, just like any other company. I'm not going to take that away from Ludwig or roger Oh, no, they you know, it's all the the the tapestry of you know our rich History of being drummers. I mean it's all it wouldn't be as interesting if we had one brand You know, we wouldn't correct. Yes. We wouldn't well. There would be no no reference We would only have one drug and that's not fair either. I'd have like four episodes of the podcast and would be out of Content. So you've never played a radio king. I've never played a radio king. No, wow Okay, I gotta get someone to send you one. I've never been in that position where I've sure been there playing I've played you know countless other Iconic snares, but I've never sure of course. We all have yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you have more than one snare Yes, I'd like nine or ten. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I hide them in the basement as well Sneak them in the back door. Exactly. No, this is an old one Yeah, no, no, no, no, I just no I just borrowed it and he was giving it back Yeah, we all did that move but uh, yeah, I mean again I don't I don't take away from any of the other companies, but yeah sling on always has a really special place in my heart And you're you're a good ambassador of the brand Well, you know what and again, I feel bad because I again, I do endorse another company which I love their drums. They're fantastic But uh, yeah, there's something it's it's almost like a um Yeah, it's it's like this The kid in me. Oh, yeah, this is history. This is we're talking 1930s a and f is awesome and is oh my god A game changer. Yeah. And you know in the fact that I can call there and I or contact them and I can speak to the owner Just like all like gene krupa could call slingerland and talk to to the you know Everybody there the people that own the company and they're actually on the floor Yeah, um, that's lost that got lost but I with a and f I have that which is fantastic, but yeah, um Yeah, I'm still giddy. I love this I love that we're sitting here talking about it because I can go on and talk about the lugs and in which we did But I I really truly love I'm a fan of of the instrument and certainly of in that case because I if you asked me anything about Ludwig I wouldn't know what era I might be like. Oh, is that six? I don't is that like 60s or 70s? Yeah, you gotta know your You know, I just never got into it, but slingerland. Yeah, it was a I was a big drum geek You know well put yeah Well, um, I want to tell people that they can find you so on instagram You're obviously on there as just john sparrow, right? Yeah, john sparrow 76. Yep. Somebody else snake john sparrow And yeah, my instagram. I'm not on tour Unfortunately, most of us aren't sure But I'm I'm always willing to talk to anybody and you know, anybody can reach out to me Yeah, for sure and nerd out and all that stuff. So when the world Carries on so if you're listening to this in a year or whatever and everything's back to normal Just remember that things were not normal for a while, but catch john with the violent fems Super, you know famous and iconic band. So John I appreciate you coming on here and just yeah, no thanks for Thanks for listening me ramble about being a dorky kid loving slingerland We're we're we're still dorks man. Come on. Absolutely. It doesn't doesn't change. No Awesome. Thank you john. Of course. Thank you If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning This is a gwin sound podcast