 Hello, everybody. We're back. And we have our third with us again. Regular thing, right? Kelly, you gonna hang out with us or what? Hopefully, yeah, I'd like to keep my spot. Heck yeah, on the Eiffel Tower. You look good there. Yeah, we don't know what the background is. We think it might be bottom of the Eiffel Tower or whatever. There's a Latin inscription. If anybody knows, I was just gonna say there's, we thought if we read it, we might accidentally summon like Gozer or something like some sort of shit will happen. So we decided. Yeah, I would advise against summoning. I don't think anyway. Another another Friday of like front and front and frivolity with recovery concepts and all kinds of good stuff with me as always is Lauren, Lauren Wave. Just so everybody knows that that's Frankie below me. Hey, Kelly, how you doing? Hi. Yep. Both working therapists in the sunny state of California, specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders. All right. And it's raining. It's raining here. It's raining. All right. It's raining in New York once a year or is it snowing? We have snow last night. It's raining today, though. Oh, slush. So now you have slush. Delightful. Yeah. And if anyone's joining from either Kelly or my pages, this right here is Drew Linsolata. He's awesome. And he is actually in the midst of studying to become a licensed therapist in the state of New York City. Are no, what? That would get you lynched here. Yeah, run out of the state in the city for that. Dude, are you fucking this up, man? Don't tell I messed it up. Oh, no, the bag man. It's my cold. I lived in New York City for a year. I just, you know, anyway, the point Walter is that Drew is going to be a therapist in New York. And he's wonderful. And he's already written lots of books. And he does lots of wonderful stuff on Instagram and on YouTube. So you should check him out. If you absolutely aren't already familiar with him. Yeah, like we're gonna leave and Kelly to do her or Lebowski. That might be all that I got today. Well, we'll see. Well, we and royal way. Anyway, today, we thought we would talk about last time the three of us got together in the conversation, the abstinence violation effect. Is that what it is? That's what it is. And, you know, us being nerdy about the sort of stuff I had to key into that because it seems so interesting. So Lauren, you're the one that sort of threw it in there. What is that? And how we're gonna relate that today? Yeah, so it's generally brought up in the context of recovery from substance use disorder. And oftentimes the goal of recovery from substance use disorder, though not always, but sometimes oftentimes abstinence is is the goal. Which in many ways, it's not different from what we're talking about here with OCD and anxiety disorders. The goal is in many respects to abstain from safety behaviors and or compulsions, depending on which disorder we're talking about. And so when the idea in the substance use disorder realm is that when somebody violates their abstinence, ie uses drugs, drinks, when they're intending to abstain on going, there's oftentimes something called the abstinence violation effect that occurs. I have encyclopedia.com right here to enlighten us, which says the abstinence violation effect occurs when an individual having made a personal personal commitment to abstain from using a substance, or to cease engaging in some other unwanted behavior has an initial lapse whereby the substance or behavior is engaged in at least once. Some individuals may then proceed to uncontrolled use. The abstinence violation effect occurs when the person attributes the cause of the initial lapse, the first violation of abstinence to internal stable and global factors within like lack of willpower or the underlying addiction or disease. And so the idea here is we wanted to talk about what happens when when somebody does a compulsion or does a safety behavior after after a period of resisting and then goes, well, screw it. I've already messed it up. I might as well keep going. Yeah. And and chaos ensues. Yeah, that's a pretty common theme. That is the excuse me before we hit the record button we're talking about. I haven't had a panic attack in three weeks, and I had one. So that's it. All that's over. Yeah. Or I haven't googled my symptoms or I haven't asked my wife for reassurance in in two weeks. And I did it last night. And that's it. I'm going to spiral now. I'm going to set back. Might as well just keep going. Yeah. Yeah, might as well just keep going. Let it ride. Yeah, but I think people and you know, it's so funny when you said that I can relate to like, you know, yeah, I've been really doing great and dropping weight. But I blew my I blew it this morning. I was gonna say I'll just eat two pizzas for the rest of the day because I might as well. Right. The working out eating very I was gonna say that's definitely like a really common to see too. Yeah, super common. And yet, it's it sort of points to the problem, I think with abstinence in those areas in particular, because it's not just saying like, I'm never going to eat this or I'm always going to do this. It's, it's not always realistic. Now, you know, but with with substance use disorder. Yeah, abstinence can can be a thing. But when we're looking at things like behaviors like Google searching, right? Like that's something that you're going to do in your life anyway. And so you're gonna sometimes lapse into doing it for the wrong reasons. And not realize that you've done it until after the fact. Makes sense. So when you guys see this like in the OCD world, is it am I throwing in the towel? Well, I did I gave into my compulsions this morning. So I'm just gonna keep doing them. Is that what you? Is that a is that a common occurrence? That and I'd say also not doing exposure work. So you might send your client home with an exposure log and they have a list of things that they have to do or that they've been assigned to do. And then they don't do one. And they're like, Oh, they come back the next week. They're like, I didn't even do any of them because that first one I just didn't do. So I figured, right, Lauren, does that happen? Absolutely. No, that's so spot on. Right. Or even like, I won't go to therapy because I didn't do it. Yes. Oh, that comes up all the time. Yeah, like, you need that's we'll do it together then in session. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I kind of heard similar things like that. I didn't want to say this in the group, for instance, I did my Facebook group, you know, reluctantly, I didn't want to say it because I am going to disappoint, you know, like I ruined it. I did it wrong. So I people would actually skip the next session because I just want to help. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, shame. Part of it. Right. That's what I was just thinking. Very much so. And I think part of it is this cultural narrative that we have that somehow whipping ourselves for making choices that we somehow dislike or would not repeat is is an effective way of changing things, which I have yet to find that to be true, unfortunately, or unfortunately, that usually we don't, yeah, we don't learn that way. Unrealistic expectations when you say like, you know, after an instance, so I'm never going to do a compulsion ever again, or else my recovery isn't recovery that can't be. Actually, it's the opposite, right? Like, you can't recover without including compulsions, I would say. You have if you don't stumble. Yeah, then how are you going to, first of all, learn how to come back from that? You're not going to recover very well because it's going to happen regardless. Yeah. So you have to learn where the traps are. You have to be willing to fall constantly. So then you can have this road map of navigating the real world, like actually using Google because you're going to have to use Google. Yeah. And then on top of it, what we see a lot of is that then people, and we've talked about this, I think, even on here, is that it becomes, the fixation becomes, I need to make sure I never do a compulsion or a safety behavior, because if I do, then something bad will happen. And then people start to go back and forth about whether or not something is this compulsion. I don't want to do it if it's a compulsion, maybe it is. And then the ruminating and it's a mess. So really, that becomes the fixation and the point of eliciting more anxiety and less time doing the things that matter to you. Yeah. Right. Like everything hinges on this one choice or this one behavior. But the reality is like, okay, you did compulsions. Let's do it differently tomorrow. Yeah. That kind of speaks to that desire to try and completely control the experience all the time. I need to be 100% sure that I'm doing it right, that I'm progressing, I'm getting better. If it doesn't feel that way, then I start to get lost in the rat's maze of thinking and analyzing. Yeah. But to me, I always try and tell people, like, go ahead and recover perfectly because, like you said, Kelly, that teaches you the most lessons. Like, have all the experiences. You need them all. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Make mistakes. It's okay. Yeah, you have to. Or when people come in and they're like, I did all these things. I didn't do all these things. And they did a really gnarly exposure. And they're like, but I did this small compulsion or this compulsion. And I'm like, okay, but you did all these other intensely anxiety provoking things. So you did a compulsion. Okay, now this week we'll do it differently and we'll do it like this. Right? So it's not all or nothing. It's not all quote unquote fact. Yeah. I think one of the really interesting things in this definition too, which I like, it was kind of a surprise because I hadn't read that far. But the idea of that when we attribute the the lapse to something that's internal to us, that's stable, that's changeable. Right? I just don't have the willpower to do this or it's impossible or I can't. We see this come up all the time. That when the choice, so it's almost like a choose your own adventure book. So you do a compulsion or a safety behavior and then you can either go down pathway, which is to that story. Like, I just can't. I can't do it. I'm not good enough. What's wrong with me? I'll never get better. Or you can go to the this isn't a stable condition. Right? We can then start to go, well, yeah, I did this thing, but I'm not and I'm not thrilled about it. I prefer not to do it again, but it's not about me. It's not because I did something wrong or because I'm like, I did something that I prefer not to repeat that I'm not a bad human or incapable because of it. So like, I don't know, I see a really important fork in the road there as in terms of how we're at what we're attributing it to, like either, well, of course, you're going to compose because it's normal or you composed because you suck at this and you're going to be trapped forever. Yeah. I maybe made a mistake, but now I'm going to find meaning in that mistake that I'm a bad person or I'm incapable. I'm weak. I can't ever get better. I'm irreparably broken. Yeah, that's the part that we don't need. That's the part where I think restructuring thoughts is helpful. I agree because these are all cognitive distortions, right? What we're talking about is very all or nothing. It's perfectionistic. It should be. It shouldn't be. It's catastrophic. It's all like the hallmarks of setting somebody up for depression and anxiety without take OCD out of the picture is like those aren't helpful thought patterns. It's like, well, there's a lot of factors going on in a person's life and there's a lot of evidence that shows that you are capable and willing to experience these uncomfortable things and that you have the ability to do this. So that's why it is also so important that we work with people's thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. And expectations so that the experience is going to be really varied. It's not going to be perfect. It's not going to look like a textbook. That's life. Like people that aren't doing anxiety recovery or some kind of low it. I didn't go to the gym yesterday or I didn't do the last set. Like that's just life, right? So yeah, it's a very act like everybody's going to screw up all the time. It's what we do. So start from that premise and let's go from there. Yeah, the growth mindset. Yeah. Yeah, we're all going to mess up. So what do you do when you mess up? That's what we care about more than anything else. Right. It's an opportunity versus it's a failure. Yeah. Okay. So I mean here we are like trying to bring it back to that whole like and I just see it all the time like recovery, my streak, you know, it's broken. This was perfect and now it's not perfect and it's nothing. That's the black and white. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm back at square one too. There's that aspect of it which I think we talked about last time but. Yeah. Let's talk for a second if we could about the idea of responsibility though. Because this is one that sometimes gets a little bit dicey because people hear responsibility as blame. They interchange those two things when they don't belong, they don't, they're not interchangeable. So like in this situation that screw up in a way and I know this is sometimes catches heat or is controversial, their choice there. So I made a choice to do. Accountability you mean? Yeah. Okay. But in a way like okay recognizing that I actually was an active part of that system, I was one of the Cogs in the machine there. Yes. It's not a bad thing. Yeah. So we're not saying like that's your fault. You screwed up. It's oh no you have influenced so I could do a different. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And that like when I was talking when we were talking about that like fork in the road. It's interesting because when you start to beat up on yourself it seems like you're taking responsibility but what you're actually doing is suggesting that it's something that is outside of your control. Well I'm just fundamentally flawed. I guess I can't do it right. Like and so it's weird right because you would think oh well you're really taking accountability for that but actually the accountability comes in the other side of the path which is in saying oh I didn't love that. Oh like that didn't I didn't like how that turned out and I maybe I made a choice that I would prefer not to repeat but that like you have to have that in order to take that next step. Yeah. Or you finish a statement or ask the logical question. I okay screwed up or I didn't like how that felt. What can I do differently whether they're asking your therapist or you're asking your support group whatever it is. Guys what can I do different next time. That's accountability right that's responsibility. That is and and also saying like oh okay so I know under these certain conditions my brain is likely wanting to compulse right like because there are some certain circumstances where people it's just harder to resist. It's just harder because life's difficult sometimes or all the time but more difficult in certain situations where okay we're going to accept that you're likely to have more intrusive thoughts and exposures are going to be a little bit harder right now and resisting compulsions will be a little bit harder but if we can give ourselves a little bit of grace here and self-compassion then we can say okay next time I'm going to do this. Yeah a recognition of the context is probably pretty important you know. Sometimes yeah sometimes. Yeah this is a thing I mean I've heard the OCD community talk about it more than any other like you know my dog is sick and my kids are acting up in school and I had a big fight with my husband and whatever it is and everything got stickier and louder then for the last four days that's a thing correct. For sure and with this caveat that sometimes it just happens too and there's everything's going just grand right and OCD can come up because people do get hung up on oh well I don't understand why I'm feeling so injured I don't understand why I'm having such a hard time everything is good and then that's a trap too so but yes anxiety in general does not like change it's like no we do not do it this way and this is about yeah like generating psychological flexibility in reality that's kind of the work we're doing yeah yeah even when things are bad I'm staying finishing work I am finishing my coffee I'm staying dude finishing yeah yeah yeah so I mean I don't know how much more we can talk about this I think it's really important that people understand that the streak I blew it I did there is no streak there's no streak that's right like don't don't build recovery streaks that's pointless it makes no sense don't build a streak in anything like I like to meditate and I got caught a few times like oh I broke my streak like a like the stupid insight timer app or whatever the one I like stop telling me how many days in a row I did this because like then you're going to want to make me do of course there's a reason why they do that but so I don't do streaks anywhere streaks are silly that's dumb but yeah but the only reason they're doing that is because they want you to come back they're playing on your anxiety they're playing on your anxiety head space does like a minute it counts minutes actually like relative minutes so that if you skip a day they don't you're not a horrible human no no no interesting though insight I like the timer but insight timer is a little bit you know because your stars get brighter more stars and then all of a sudden stars are gone oh shit I would god like oh yeah yeah I love that we all got different ones like my 10 percent happier it does sometimes track the number of days you're doing it in a row but it's not like anything super flashy in terms of like you know you win the the golden ticket for having meditated again today um but yeah I think it's hard because on the other hand it can be sort of helpful to get into a routine with something to set goals and to try to show up in a disciplined way but it is as always this sort of middle ground of of have and having that flexibility to say like okay well I didn't make it that day right I you know I've had the last couple of years this goal of meditating daily and I haven't met it like last year didn't make it make 100 percent of the time but if I had left it there I wouldn't be to the point where I'm now meditating 15 minutes a day right most of the time so there has to be a little there's both I'd say the vast majority of the days I've meditated right but that's because I've been willing to hold like hold myself accountable after the choice you know of like I I didn't make it happen yesterday and I'm disappointed or oh my gosh I can't believe I forgot okay well then back back to square one here we are it's okay I'm not square one but like back back to the drawing forward and we move forward from here yeah back on the horse tomorrow I think we're kind of you know kind of a Kelly you gotta know what going on but we're kind of immersed in that sort of culture a little bit too where like my fitness there are so many apps and so many things we're like and we're told you know consistency every day man every day that hardcore mindset thing that you see for men I will tell you that you know in that community like you see a lot of dudes with beards bigger than mine talking about like being hardcore man and you get up at four warning and do you reading and do your your you know 75 okay but you can't always do that and it's right be productive right yeah so a little tough so perfectionism yeah yeah that's part of it too for sure yeah I don't know so I guess you know to wrap it up a little bit we're a little shorter than we usually are this week but that's okay nah 20 minutes we're good you know if you if you think you ruined your streak or you're really down on yourself there was never a streak there was never a streak you broke your streak and somehow you're judging that and trying to find meaning in it and and rewriting yourself for that don't do that yeah you guys tell your clients in this situation knock it off no I'm just kidding there's Bob Newhart school as we've talked about of stop it right like just stop that yeah I mean I think and I wanted to call into what you said at the very beginning which is also that if our expectation of recovery is that it's going to be total absence of thoughts and feelings then we're also in a mess and if we're sort of gauging recovery in that way then when they do come back that we are going to get caught in the all-in-one thinking around for now I'm screwed forever too even though that's not a behavior per se yeah right Kelly have you got a client that's being very undue what would you tell them they're being really very undue what I do is I tell them to check it at the door usually I get kind of aggressive about it and I explain what we just explained is like that's what's actually getting in the way of you recovering you know that's what's getting in the way and we have to be kind to ourselves and sometimes I'll even assign them exposures where they're actively doing it part way you know they're doing the halfway mark yeah doing it wrong is the exposure your assignment is yeah wrong yeah get a C not an A oh I love it that's good that's good advice I like how you said you get aggressive about it I think a lot of people miss that part you know when your therapist gets a little bit in your face they're trying to help yeah I mean you got to test the room know who you're talking to but usually I'm like you we can't do that we can't can't do it because I've seen it get in the way of my recovery it was one of the biggest factors in getting in the way of my recovery so well done no respond to this with you guys do it again next month yeah otherwise yeah don't know we're gonna think about it but we'll be here so you know as usual anyway we'll wrap it up thanks you guys for coming by and checking it out this will stay on my youtube channel and I don't know if you guys are gonna put it up on wherever your outlets are but yes we'll find Kelly have Kelly on the on the bottom of the screen at the OCD therapist right on instagram Lauren is at the obsessive mind on instagram what am I on instagram I am you're you're being not anxious not true yes gotta get rid of here at some point but whatever we'll figure that so anyway yeah all the way from there you can find us all and keep this here and comment we'll I'll dragging it back into the comments if you guys come up with something in a couple of weeks okay thanks for having us that's good thanks for having us on see you in the next one later guys bye bye