 I would like to welcome everyone to the first in our webinar series on the day in the life of a leader. We have gotten a fabulous response nationally and internationally, so we are very pleased that you are here today. My name is Dr. Susan Allman, and I, along with Dr. Cheryl Stenstrom, have put this webinar series together. And we've got some really exciting individuals speaking with us today, and for three weeks in April. So please join us for each of these sessions. This session will be recorded. It will be available on our YouTube site, and there will be a link on the School of Information Sciences webpage so that you'll be able to get to it. So I will turn everything over to Dr. Stenstrom, and then we will begin. Thank you, Dr. Allman. We co-chair the School of Information at San Jose State University's Leadership and Management Advisory Committee. So each of our subject areas has outside advice committee, and that committee, the Leadership and Management one, has spoken to us many times about the need for the School of Information to help students see a path towards management and management careers. And one of their ideas was that having a view into a typical day in the life of a leader might be useful both for students and for those considering signing up and perhaps attending an MLIS program. So here we are today, and I'm thrilled to welcome the first in our four-part series. And I will introduce to you Dana Van Zandt and Heather Robinson in just a moment. As Dr. Allman said, we're going to do the presentation and have time at the end for questions. Today's unique format, we're going to do an interview style presentation with questions and answers with both of our guest speakers. And before I introduce them, I would just like to give a very special thanks to Kim Doherty and Jill Cleese at the San Jose State University Career Center who helped Dr. Allman and I put together some of the content and background for this series once our committee had suggested it. So on we go, if we can go to the next slide please. Our two speakers today are Dana Van Zandt and Heather Robinson. Dana and I know each other quite well. She is a current student at the School of Information in San Jose, however, lives in Ontario. We share that we're both Canadian, but we met in class a couple of semesters ago and she's since gone on to do an in-depth study on advocacy at her home library, which is St. Thomas Public Library in Ontario. Her title is Manager of Advocacy and Community Development. And prior to taking that on, she worked as a library assistant and a library services coordinator within the St. Thomas Public Library. Before entering the library world and continuing to pursue her education by getting her MLS, she had received her Bachelor of Arts and a Master of Arts in Philosophy. Heather Robinson works with Dana. She's the CEO of the St. Thomas Public Library in Ontario, Canada. She's been working there for 20 years in a variety of roles, including manager of team and children's services, manager of fundraising and community development, public services librarian, and was seconded to be the project coordinator for the renovation of their library building in 2011, so indeed a little bit of everything at that library. Heather started her career as a page in London, Ontario at the Public Library when she was 14 and went on to work in Toronto, Kingston, Ontario at the Public Libraries there after she graduated from library school before coming to St. Thomas. And she was nominated as the Ontario Library Association's Children's Librarian of the Year in 2004, so thank you so much to both of you for being here and agreeing to join us for the kickoff of our four-part series. What's up, Andrew? Thank you. Without further ado, Sue, I think we'll go to the next slide and start off on our interview and we'll get to know you a bit through our questions. Absolutely. Okay, so Dana, I think we'll start with you. We ask you some questions about being a leader and then maybe you can pass that over to Heather and the first question is, before you were in a leadership role, did you have any hesitations about moving into this level of responsibility? How did you handle that? And once you became a leader, what surprised you, if anything, about your new role? Okay, thank you. First of all, thanks so much for having both of us here. We're really excited about the opportunity and it's nice to be chatting with you again, Cheryl. So before I was in this leadership role, moving up within the same organization that I'd worked in for quite a few years, because we are a unionized organization, one of my immediate concerns actually was moving outside the union, I've become quite used to working in that environment and the sort of the constraints and the supports that it provided. But I did find that my nervousness about that was fairly quickly allayed because of the supportive nature of the management team that I joined. So that was definitely a concern that was very real for me, but one that was quickly put to rest by the working environment I found myself in. I did also wonder, because again, I worked my way up through the organization that I started in, if a move to management would change my relationships with my co-workers, I'd become quite close with some of them and I'd work with a lot of them for about eight years or so. So I would say, I mean, I've been in this management role for just over a year now and the relationships have changed. I think at the beginning I thought that not a lot about it would change that I'd be able to sort of maintain my chummy relationships with people. And while we're still on, for the most part, excellent terms, there's definitely some boundary setting work that has to happen when you move into a management role and you sort of become more aware of different levels that things are working on within the organization that you need to be aware of when you're interacting with people. And I think that that's something that took me by surprise and that required a fair amount of mentorship from my co-workers on the management team, but that's also been a real opportunity for growth for me, both personally and in this role. So again, that was something that was an immediate concern, but that's been something that's provided, yeah, a growth opportunity and, yeah, it's been rewarding. And the other sort of immediate concern that I had was the level of increased responsibility because although I'd worked here for eight years, my role as a library assistant had a certain amount of responsibility, but joining the management team, you're helping to lead the direction of the library, your managing staff. There's a lot more that goes along with that, but I found that I actually really enjoyed being part of the decision-making process. I still enjoy that. I enjoy hearing what my co-workers have to say, learning from them. I enjoy kind of finding my own voice, expressing that and the feedback that I get about that. It's, as I said before, it's really, it's a kind of team where there's a lot of collaboration, there's a lot of honest feedback, but there's also a lot of encouragement. And again, it's been an opportunity for growth for me. So I think if I was surprised by anything, it's by how much I've actually enjoyed the increased responsibility and enjoyed the opportunities that have come along with that because I was at first somewhat intimidated by that, I'll admit. So I guess that's my perspective and I'll hand it over to Heather. Thanks, Tina. And I would say a resounding yes to being hesitant about moving into this, the CEO role. I mean, I have had leadership roles right from the beginning of my career, including, you know, even on my co-op, I, when I did a co-op out of library school, I was in Toronto and it just so happened that the children's librarian left and all of a sudden I was in that role until I graduated. So it wasn't the leadership part of it that was really frightening to me. It was all of a sudden, you know, being in charge of it all. And I think that I was extremely apprehensive about the budgeting part of it. Even though I had been used to taking care of parts of the budget, I had never been in charge of the whole budget. But my former, the former CEO, she had worked with me on courses, on budgeting, because she knew that that was one of my apprehensions. That had really helped. And she put together a CEO binder of what to expect when you were a CEO. And I have to be honest, up until two weeks before the applications were due, and they did have a process whereby they went national. They put the posting out for anybody who wanted to apply for it. Up until two weeks, I still was unsure. And it was finally a call from the board chair saying, Heather, you are going to apply for this position, right? That really pushed me forward. And I said, OK, you know, Heather, what do you have to lose? And you might lose. And I, that in my mind was OK. I think that I could have coped with that. So that's really my journey to being the CEO. As far as what said, it came a leader, what surprised me is if it's OK to go on to that question, what I found was that you basically take every day as it comes. So I have to tell the funniest story about my very first day as CEO, very first day. We had a sewage backup in the children's department. And there literally was sewage all over the bottom floor of the library that did damage, that we had to close down the department, that we had to make decisions about where that staff are going to be working because they couldn't work in the basement. So I think in a way that was like trial by fire. It was saying to me, listen, every day you're going to come in, you're going to deal with whatever happens. And you can deal with whatever happens. You'll just take it step by step. What I also really found out was that it really emphasizes that your staff is everything, that where you have strengths or where your strengths aren't, there's are. And by cultivating a relationship of self-respect and respect for others, you recognize that and you work together. So you know what? I still, my Excel skills are terrible. But I have people on staff who can help me through that. But when I was thinking about taking on the role, I was saying, oh my goodness, you can't even do Excel. Well, you know what? You can't. There are people who can. And they can get you through that part of it. So I'm going to turn it over to Dana to talk a little bit more about what surprised her about the leadership. If you'd like to add any more, Dana? Well, actually, I feel like I kind of addressed the things that surprised me about it, just that I think how much I enjoyed it, how much I found that I did actually embrace it when it wasn't something that I maybe had originally thought that I was planning to do. So I feel like if people are OK, we're probably ready to go on to the next slide. And one thing, Dana, don't you notice about it? Is it's nice to have the overall view of things, right? To be able to look at the umbrella view and actually have the freedom to make decisions that can come to fruition. It's a really exciting part of a leadership role. That's definitely rewarding. Thank you both for being so open about your experiences, about sort of your hesitations and then the surprises and the joys that you're finding in those roles too. That's wonderful. I think that gives us a really very front line and down-to-earth view of what your story was like to get to those roles. I'll move on now quickly and ask you the next slide, which is why did you seek out a leadership role? Either one of you can take that question first. OK, I'll go ahead. It's Dana. So I actually, as Cheryl mentioned, I'm still actively doing this MLIS degree. I'm about halfway through. I'm taking it incredibly slowly. So I started that when I was still working as a part-time library assistant here at St. Thomas Public Library. And as I started to work through the core courses, it really did help me to see how my public library fit into the larger municipal picture and also what a transformational force librarians really are in people's lives. And that renewed and reinforced the passion that I had for public libraries. And I realized that I wanted to be part of the team that was going to be charting the course for the future of this library. And so the position that I'm currently in now opened up. And obviously I wasn't done the degree yet. And I sort of expressed to a co-worker that I wish that it had become available two years down the road, because I would have completed the degree. And she said, you know what? Why don't you just apply for it? You're doing the degree. You've worked here for years. Give it a shot. And so I did go and actually talk to Heather, who was my supervisor at the time in that role as well. And she really encouraged me to apply to go for it and to see what I could bring to it. And that was why I thought it out. And that's sort of how I got here now. So I guess I'll hand this question over to Heather now. And what's really important about hearing how Dana came to be in this role is that when we first envisioned the person, the manager of advocacy and community development, we immediately thought it would be a librarian. And when she came to us and when she came to me and we saw the light in her eyes and she said, I can remember it clearly. She said, this role is made for me. We went back to the table and we said, you know, is this a role that we really need a librarian in? You know, what would be the benefits of not having a librarian in this role? And when we went trolling, would this open the position up for people who had to have amazing skills that they could bring into libraries? And I think that we're seeing that as a trend that sometimes maybe the librarians aren't always the best person for certain roles in the organization. And that's OK, because it makes us broader and our thinking more creative, more innovative. And so we posted it. And she was up against librarians, but the light that she had in her eyes translated into an amazing interview and she is fantastic in the role. So I know I'm talking about Dana, but that's really important to know that sometimes you can advocate for yourself. And I hope that you will. As far as me seeking out a leadership role, I think after all the performance appraisals I've had in my lifetime, one of the things that's pretty consistent is people will tell me that I'm visionary, a visionary with my feet on the ground. And so I can't imagine being in a role where I couldn't chart my own path, where I couldn't make a difference. And I remember even the first when I was interviewed at St. Thomas Public Library and that was for a children's library role, I remember coming out of the interviewing and saying, I can make a difference in this library. And it's something that's obviously very important in my life. And I think we're going to talk a little bit about how we come to leadership and that can be a meandering road like it was for me or it can be quick. And you just know that you want to be in a top role and you go for it. And that's OK too. And both have their advantages and their disadvantages. But that's my reason for seeking out a leadership role. And if I can be honest, I'm at that age where I didn't think I could possibly go through trying to work around another CEO and whatever that meant for me. So that's just the honest answer to that. I think we're ready to go on. Thank you for that. Again, for being so open, both of you, and giving us some insight into the different ways that you can get into leadership positions. So this question that we can see on the screen, the next one, again, is a two-parter around how you both would define successful leaders, but also a bit about how those definitions influenced you and how that's been affected by those leaders under whom you've worked, when you've seen successful leadership. It's Dana again. I just want to say quickly before I answer this question. But I do think, and I'm not just saying this to plug San Jose, but I do feel that the skills that are being emphasized in the course in San Jose are ones that are really relevant for leaders. I feel like when I talk to Heather or I talk to the other members of our management team who did their degrees maybe a little bit further in the past. No, I'm sorry. A lot further in the past. But it's changed. The content of it has changed. The focus of it has changed. It's very much connected to skills that are necessary to today's workforce. And I feel that I'm very, very grateful that they opened up in position and made it possible for me to apply for it without the degree. At the same time, I would say that being actively in this degree while I'm in this role is the best possible combination for me at this point. Because I'm finding that every single course that I'm taking is something that I can directly translate into my day-to-day work life, which has been an incredible synergy, I guess I would say. So I just wanted to throw that out there. Well, so in its heather, I mean, absolutely. I went to library school long, long time ago. But even I know that in the library school, the library schools now are still struggling with what it is that's going to be relevant to those who are actually going out and working in libraries. And we're just seeing what Dana's bringing to the management table and to the workplace in general. And I mean, we're benefiting all over the place. And she's pointing out things that we should be reading because she's reading moments. So it's been an exciting process for us. Yeah, really. OK. So I can see there's a question in the chat. And I think in a way what I'm going to say about successful leadership, I hope is kind of going to speak to that question as well. So I guess I was going to say one of the things that I found is that it's been really good to be learning and growing together with this management team. Because as is probably quite clear by now, Heather is new to this particular role. And the other two people in our management team are relatively new to their roles as well. And that's provided a real atmosphere where growth is possible. So as far as what makes a leader successful, I would say the things that came to mind for me almost immediately were understanding themselves. So understanding what your strengths are and also understanding where your limitations are. And I think that's where the connection to advocacy is as well. When you take the time to get to know yourself and that involves self-reflection in a solitary way, but it also involves being observant of yourself as you interact with other members of your team, as you interact with the people with whom you're working. You do start, or at least I've found, you start to get a real sense of what your strengths are. And you start to own those. And you start to feel more comfortable advocating for yourself and understanding when is the right time to push your ideas forward, when is the right time to be listening. It's a real, your confidence starts to grow. And I think that's the combination of being in this role, owning the fact that I'm in this role, and being in school. There's just this confluence of intellectual pursuits and personal growth that I think has been really helpful. So anyways, as far as a successful leader goes, I think understanding yourself is key. You need to do that. Understanding the people with whom you've worked, or with whom you were actively working, who are they? What are their strengths? What are their limitations? And how do you capitalize on their strengths and help create an environment where they can work together to do their best work and whatever that best work is, it's gonna be defined by your own strategic plan and your own circumstances. But you wanna be creating an environment where these people that you've taken the time to get to know and understand can excel. And I think another thing about a successful leader is they know how and when to delegate. They know when something's best done by themselves and they know when it's best done by someone else. Also being able to give constructive feedback because I find one of my tendencies, especially since the people that I manage or people that I worked with side by side is to just give praise. And when that's due, that's great. But there are times when you need to give constructive feedback and you need to find out how to do that in a way that is going to help people grow and move forward. And also how to give encouragement and praise, but in a meaningful way, connect it to something specific. Don't just always say awesome job, awesome job, which is kind of what I did at the beginning because I didn't wanna be perceived as getting sort of above myself because I'd moved up. And I think a leader can help support you through your mistakes. All of us are gonna make mistakes, missteps, say something wrong, do something wrong, poor choice. You know, everybody does that, we're all humans. A leader is gonna help you work through that. They're gonna help you own what you've done, where you are and work through that to grow. I think also credibility, doing what you say you're gonna do, following through on things, not asking people to do things that you wouldn't do yourself. I'm not saying you have to do everything yourself, but being realistic about what you ask of people and not asking them to do things that you wouldn't do yourself. Another thing that I think is really important that I think we've seen a lot of over the last while is knowing how to involve the rest of the staff in decision-making, but without giving over too much of your own control. And that's a balance that I think we've been trying to walk as a management team for some time. And I think it requires conscious, constant effort. And I think also leaders do need to be forward thinking and visionary. As a member of the staff, it's good if you have those qualities, but it's not essential. When you're a leader, it's essential that you have those qualities. You're the one who is, well, part of the team that's leading, leading the institution forward. You have to be thinking about the future. You have to have a vision for that and you have to have a map to get there. So those are my thoughts on that. So I'll hand it over to Heather. Thank you, Dana. Yeah, and I, it's so funny because this morning I was just, I was reading a Brene Brown book and I stumbled across this. This is what she says about a leader. And I just believe in this whole heartedly. A leader is anyone who holds her or himself accountable for finding potential in people and processes. And I, that is to me, the true meaning of a leader. It's, you know, in the end, we're in these roles because someone has to be ultimately responsible. But in the day-to-day running of a library, the people who are working in the library in whatever role they hold are holding this place together. So the most important thing that a successful leader can do is nurture the relationship with staff. That it's just, it's paramount to anything else. And I, you know, we've, I've been through a variety of leaders. Some of them I would consider, well, I've had some pretty weak leaders for a variety of reasons. I've had leaders who bully and create a fear-based leadership. And so people are tiptoeing around. I've had ineffective leaders who don't make decisions. And I think it's really important that you look at these experiences and say, oh, it would be nice if I just had nice, you know, healthy leaders. But leaders are never perfect. And you always learn something about from the negative parts of leadership. So, and I think that makes you stronger as a leader. But I emphasize what Dana said. And in fact, we are working on this right now that you need to first and foremost know yourself. And that's something I'm afraid I came to a little later on in life. And in fact, I just took a power workshop with a person called Julie Diamond. And I was sitting next to a woman and she said, Heather, it sounds to me like you need to own yourself. Own your strengths. And I thought, you know, my goodness, I've gotten to this far in my career and I haven't owned my strengths. So she recommended going on and doing the Clifton Strengths Test. So I came back, signed up, cost some money, did it. And it has 34 strengths on it. And I did the whole nine yards, you can do just five. And I found out what my top five were and I found out what my bottom five were. And some of them surprised me. And then I thought, oh, yes. Well, so this is, it explains why I am who I am. So then we went on, I was so enthusiastic about this that I had all of the managers do the strengths test. And so we're actually working with a consultant right now. And we're talking about one another and our strengths and also how we see one another strengths. And that's been really important. And then we're taking the next step at a staff development day and having our staff do the strengths test. And all of this is to gift them with the knowledge, more knowledge of who they are. And that's really important. So I mean, we kind of have an unwritten rule around here that the best thing we can do is to get to know our staff well enough so that we know and they talk about what they're passionate about, what their skills are. And we try to interweave those things into our workplace. And libraries are excellent for this. You can interweave a whole lot of skills and talents into a library workplace. And I think we continue to do that. So we're hearing that even mirrored back to us. Like they'll say to us, we know that this is a workplace where we can use our passions and our talents. And I think that successful leaders do that. So then of course, in a role like mine, you have to be a strategist because you're dealing with politics and political figures and you're funding the majority of it is coming from the municipal government in our case. And so you have to know how to have a relationship with the politicians and still remind them that you have a library board. And sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. So in our case, you know, they help us with large maintenance projects and they do our budget, like they send checks for us and all that sort of stuff, keep our books. And I sit on the city manager's committee, which I would recommend for leaders to get to know their political environment. And I know in the United States, it's different. So I think that's really, really important. You have to be an active listener and you have to realize that this job is not all high level. Sometimes you're just dealing with cracked windows and social issues like, you know, drugs and sex in the washrooms. It's a real mixed bag and that's what makes it a wonderful role at one time. The other part of it that you have to know about this position and any leadership position where you're supervising people is that the personnel issues are extremely complex and extremely difficult and they take oodles and oodles of time. So the more you can work on interpersonal skills and yourself, who you are, I think the better. So I think we've pretty well. I think we have. We have talked that one to the ground. Okay, thank you. I would be remiss if I didn't loop that very quickly and say thank you too for the great plug about the San Jose State School of Informations MLIS program and Dana is a star in that program. So it's a mutual benefit there, I think. Our next question is about what skills you think are most helpful in your role. And maybe we can focus a little bit on the second part of this question about where you develop those skills as well too, if it was on the job or if it was, you know, you're a member of your condo board, any of those things that you feel really helped prepare you and develop those skills. Sure, I can start there at Dana again. I would say, I mean, given my particular history, most of these skills have been developed in this job while I've been in school, that being said, I do often draw parallels between being a parent and being a leader in an organization because there are a lot of parallels there. So I'm just gonna throw that out there. So I would say, let's see. Yeah, I think taking on this role, learning how to take responsibility for choices that I make because I start to see more concretely how they directly affect the people that I'm supervising and my members, like my co-members on the management team, that's sort of been a skill that I've been developing, time organization. When I was a library assistant, I thought that I was busy and I was busy, but when you move into a leadership role, you're juggling a lot more balls in the air. I guess at one time, I did actually just take the one unit leadership course here, another plug because it was amazing. And some of the reading that we did was talking about the difference between management and leadership and what I realized in reading that is that this kind of role, and I'm guessing a lot of roles like this involve management and leadership. So there's time management, there's managing people, other people's time, there's managing projects, there's managing your day-to-day schedule when you've got a lot of meetings and stuff. But then there's also the leadership aspect, which is working with people and visioning for the library and setting priorities and doing strategic planning. A lot of it, I mean, I'm learning on the ground. And I think that people are capable of that, especially people who have taken the step to do a higher level degree like this. That takes a lot of initiative, that takes courage, that takes a belief in yourself. And I think that forms the, I don't know what, the groundwork, the basis to do the other things that you need to learn how to do on the job, especially if you are in a supportive work environment. So, and I would say, you know, from the leadership reading that I did and from my own personal experience, there's tons of different environments in which you can develop those skills. I mean, self-knowledge and working on yourself, you can do that whenever, wherever, through reading, through your relationships with friends, family, children. If you're, you know, in a church group or some other kind of group, take on a leadership role there. And it doesn't have to be, you know, that you are named the leader of that group. It's the way that you conduct yourself there, the relationships that you build with people, the influence that you start to wield and the sort of belief in yourself that starts to come out of taking on those roles and understanding that you can influence other people in a positive way and get to know them and kind of make things happen. So I would say, you know, any opportunity in a class that you're in at San Jose or somewhere else, you know, in your living room with your family or in any group you happen to be involved in, there's opportunities if you're thinking intentionally and authentically that you want to grow as a leader and as a person, you can make that happen almost anywhere that you are in any relationship that you're in. So I'm gonna hand that over to Heather and Anthony. And I would totally agree with you, Dana, that I think a lot of it is just actually watching power and how you use power in every aspect of your life. And this is where good leaders and not so good leaders really need to have a good look at why things aren't working or why they are working it. And from what Julie Diamond says in her book, called Power, Users Guide. I mean, that power dynamic starts in your own families when you're children. And even just looking back and saying, you know, what was the dynamic in my family? It influences your dynamic when you get to school, when you're in public school or when you're in high school and when you're working in groups and university. There's all sorts of power stuff going on, watch that carefully. And yes, as Dana says, you know, taking leadership roles in whatever aspects of your life you feel you can take leadership roles because you learn so much. And sometimes it's nice to have that learning before you're in like, you know, the CEO position or managing 15 people. Because it is a lot about the interpersonal skills a lot. So I would say, you know, almost anywhere and do read about it and read in different, like I'm reading a book now about, you know, what horses and watching horses can tell us about leadership. So whatever way calls you to do research, you know, it all is very, very helpful in the end. So I, yeah, I think we're ready to go on. Okay, wonderful. I'm just gonna mute your mic for a quick second. Sorry, I was getting some feedback there. I'll put you back on in a minute. Before we just go on, I wanna say we're gonna just skip a bit around in the formal questions here. Sorry, Heather and Dana, I know that's last minute, but I know there's a couple of questions here that are really probably burning on people's minds as we hear them from students all the time. So I wanna make sure we get to those. And I also wanna just pause quickly if anyone has any questions that they are dying to ask at this point before we go on. You can use the chat if you'd like to do that. Perhaps think about that while we're going on, but I'm gonna jump ahead and ask you both what kind of supervisory experience did you have before you took on your first leadership role? I know this is a very common concern for people who are considering leadership roles. They think, oh, well, I couldn't even put myself in that position, I couldn't apply for that because I've never supervised anyone. So tell us a bit about your experiences. I was just gonna say I'll start because my supervisory experience before taking on this role was extremely limited so it won't take me long to talk about it. I started here at St. Thomas Public Library as a library assistant, which was not in any way a supervisory position. And then I covered two maternity leaves as a library services coordinator in our children and teens department. So that was constituted at about a year and a half. And really the leadership that that involved was just supervising and scheduling, well, just. It was supervising and scheduling for part-time staff members in three pages. But it certainly didn't have the sort of strategic planning and visionary components. So I mean, when I applied for this job, I had very little supervisory experience and I went for it anyway. And I would encourage people to do that because I think that the relationship that you have with the people that you're going to be working with, what you bring to the interview, that can make a huge difference. It's not necessarily, I mean, of course your resume is important. I'm certainly not gonna say that, but it's what you bring to the interview and the passion that you bring and your willingness to learn. And the skill set that you do have, emphasizing all the strengths you can bring, that's important and you should go for it. Yes, and Heather, one of you asked about advocating for yourself. And this is part of advocating for yourself is taking roles that have functional guidance in them. Because it's kind of nice in a way, and maybe this is my own way of going about doing it. It's kind of nice to ease into a leadership role. So, Dana's role, she would identify issues if there were issues with staff to a manager. And then she and the manager, which was at that point me, we would talk about how we were gonna handle them. And in the talking about how we're gonna handle things, you're learning, right? So do look for those roles and don't shy away from them. That's just the thing. Most of the time when you have issues and if you're worried about supervising people, just know that most of the time you're not doing it alone. I'm not doing it alone. I consult with HR from the city all the time. So don't shy away from them. And we are now, I think there's a trend that we're doing behavioral interviewing. That's where we'd like to go because we want people who have the behaviors that we're looking for. We can teach the skills, but we want to know that they're compassionate people. So in terms of my supervisor experience, like honestly, I didn't even think about it being supervisory. Here I am, I'm not even finished library school, just like Dana and I'm all of a sudden, I think I had three people that I was supervising and I had to come up with programming for children and I had to go to meetings with other children's librarians throughout the system. So don't be afraid to be thrown into it and ask for help for the things that you don't know because most of the time, nobody's minding showing you the ropes and helping you along. There's lots of help out there in different aspects of whatever it is you're struggling with. And from there, I was like a branch supervisor so I tried that for a while and then I was various roles as you heard in this. And each one of them taught me something, but I always had help, always, and someone to talk to about things and hopefully you always will too. So. I can see there's a question in the chat about finding a mentor. Would you like us to answer that one? Yeah, thanks, Dana. I was gonna say that follows along perfectly from Heather's last point. So if whoever wants to address leadership and mentorship, that'd be great if you're wanting to do that. I can jump in and just quickly say for me, I mean, I guess I was lucky enough to already be working in a library. And so when I was looking for someone to give me some guidance, I did have Heather to turn to because she was my supervisor at the time. So I mean, when I was thinking about going to library school, I went and talked to Heather. When I was thinking about applying for this position that I'm in now, I went and talked to Heather. And that relationship came about quite naturally. That being said, I think you can find a mentor probably, I mean, in the same way that you can find leadership experience, take a look at the people around you, take a look even at family members or at members of groups that you're part of or even, you know, a professor at school that you feel that you have a good relationship with and go out on a limb and ask them, tell them what your ambitions are, tell them what you're wanting to do and ask for their advice. I mean, I personally would be flattered if someone asked me those questions. And I think I can't speak for Heather, but she's nodding, but people feel the same way. I mean, that you see them as someone who has something to bring to you and to your journey. I mean, that's flattering. So I mean, look around for people that you respect and admire in any aspect of your life and talk to them about what you're wanting to do and see what they have to say to you. That would be my recommendation. And if you happen to be working in a library, well, that's great, it works out really well. Yes, and I know that this is Heather. I know that our Ontario Library Association actually has a mentorship program. And so people who want to mentor sign up and then those who want to be mentored in the different aspects of librarianship, and we all know that it's a very broad field, there's opportunity for them to chat. But as Dana says, your mentor may not be your supervisor or your CEO. I think you have to know your leader, the person you're working for or your CEO or whatever to see whether or not this is the kind of mentorship that you're looking for. It isn't always, but I get calls from people who want to ask questions, who want some advice. And in my thinking, you are the future of librarianship and why wouldn't we want to be helping the future? Because if you're, I mean, I'm still as passionate about libraries as I was when I first started in this career and we want it to continue, we want it to be healthy. So why wouldn't we help? Cold call, I mean, if they say no, move on to someone else. I can see, I mean, you're from some pretty amazing areas with some pretty amazing libraries. Give it a try, like really. Oh, yes, somebody is even talking about mentorship programs, good, good. Yes, take advantage of them. All right. I think it sounds like both of you said, don't rely just on one person to give you all that advice and mentorship. Turn to whoever you need to at the time, it sounds like. Yes. I really want to get to this next question. So I'd ask Dr. Almond to make sure that we put this on the screen. The question is, what do you feel is most important for LIS students to know about leadership? I can jump in and start, it's Dana. I would say that doing leadership well involves more introspection and a deeper understanding of human psychology than you might at first expect. I think people may go into it thinking, it's all very skills-based and the skills are important. I'm certainly not saying that they're not. But a lot of it is about that relationship building piece. It's about getting to know the people with whom you're working on a day-to-day basis, the people that you're attempting to lead, and really getting to know yourself. I think I can't stress enough how important it is to understand your own strengths and your own limitations because that allows you to be an authentic person. And when you're being an authentic person, then you're able to be an authentic leader. Those relationships will happen more naturally. That being said, you do need to intentionally focus on relationships and understanding yourself the way that you're relating to other people and authentically getting to know them, listening to them, understanding where they're coming from, and hearing them. And hearing does not necessarily have to mean agreeing. And I think that was something I would emphasize as well. You can hear people without agreeing with them. And I think that's an important thing to understand when you're a leader. I think I would also say that taking on increased levels of responsibility, it sounds scary, but it can be incredibly fulfilling. And I think it's worth the risk if you think it's something that you might want to do. I would say go for it because it can be a real opportunity for growth and very satisfying. And also, I guess on a personal note, if you're moving up in an organization, your relationships with your former coworkers are going to change. Not all your friendships are going to disintegrate. I'm certainly not suggesting that, but your relationships with people will change. So be ready for that if you're looking at internal movement. I think those would be my sort of main insights. And that, yeah, I guess what we were saying before, you can learn to lead from wherever you are. And you can lead from wherever you are. So build your confidence, your sense of self, your ability to form trust-based relationships with people, work on those things. Because then you will be heading in the right direction no matter where you currently are in your work life. Over to Heather. Dana, how can I follow that? No, I agree with all of that. It's knowing yourself is one of the most important things. Do everything you can to know who you are, to know how you deal with others. And there are a variety of ways of doing that, but that's so important. And I think that it is true that the higher up you get, the lonelier the position can be. And Dana talked about this earlier on, that, and she had the experience of going from being a coworker to all of a sudden being a manager. And it is lonelier as you move up. And you sort of have to accept that, but it is extremely fulfilling. This libraries are one of the most resilient places, I think. Because we were looking at extinction in many people's minds and look at where we are now and we continue to mold and change ourselves to meet the needs of our public and to try to keep up with technology, that takes a lot of resilience. So keep your skills, do try to keep up with the technology in your libraries, do get to know yourself as well as possible. And also, I think it's really important to learn how to put your ego aside, that bringing your ego to a leadership role it can be really harmful. So I watch leaders talk about my library and my staff and I always think, but that's not correct. You know, you're the library staff, we're all the library staff. And feeling as though you're all in this together, that yes, you're the figurehead, you're the one who will talk to the press if something goes wrong. You're the one they call when, you know, the roof's leaking or somebody's doing drugs in the washroom, but really we're all in this together. So the respecting, the respect of other people, no matter what their station is really, really important. So I think that, yeah, that pretty well covers it. Wonderful, thank you. This is another really important question and I hope you can touch on it in a time we have left. So when you're thinking about students who are in the program or thinking about entering the program, what are some ways that you suggest that they can practice leadership skills when they might not have a job that has that title or other ways that they can start to prepare themselves to take on that role? Sure, I can start, it's Dana. So I think a few of these things have been touched on in things that we've been saying so far. One of the first things I thought was observe other leaders and observe the way that people react to them, observe the way that they kind of live out their relationships with other people with whom they work and think about leaders with whom you're working. What do you like about the way that they're interacting with you? What do you not like? What do you think about the decisions that they're making and the way that, like what direction they're taking their organization in? Really think critically and intentionally about those things. I would say, and again, we've touched on this a few times, but I can't sort of over-emphasize it. Get to know yourself, what are your strengths? Where do you think you need to improve and start thinking about what you could do to strengthen yourself? What could you do to learn more? And then own what you learn about yourself. When you figure out what your strengths are, really own them, believe in them. You do have something to contribute. Share your ideas and take risks because you might be surprised by how people react to your thoughts and your insights. And I would also say, own what you don't know. Don't be afraid to ask questions and don't be afraid to be wrong. Don't be afraid to learn from your mistakes and don't be afraid to learn from other people. Just because you're in a leadership role doesn't mean you have to know everything. It's a wonderful opportunity to come into contact with people who have so much to offer, both the organization that you're working for and you as a growing leader, take that time, ask those questions and learn from other people. Humble yourself in that way. I think it's so important. I would say also intentionally and deliberately working on building trust-based relationships with people. That can be family members, friends. It can be people that you're in school with. I mean, from the reading that I've done to in the leadership course that I just took, credibility and accountability are cornerstones of good leadership. And I do believe that from my own limited experience as well. So think about that. Do reading around it. What would make you more credible? What would make you more accountable and try to live those things out in your day-to-day life? And then, I mean, any context that you can find in which you can practice these skills? Like, are you in a group? Do you belong to, yeah, a church group or something like that? Where can you lead from? Where could you try these things out? And then, of course, take on any opportunities for increased responsibility where you're working and try these skills. And I would plump for the San Jose leadership course. It really was great. So over to Heather. Wonderful, thanks, Dana. I think one of the things that leaders, I know I struggled with and that is fear. And I think that working through fear, I know this is often a career that is, maybe not so much anymore with the technology part, but it used to attract a lot of introverts. And I remember being at a conference and the speaker saying, listen, you need to speak. We all need to speak. It doesn't matter if you're afraid of public speaking. You have to find a voice. You have to get out there and you've got to do it. So, I mean, I was a painfully shy person. I still am in my heart of hearts, but in order to be a leader, you have to find your voice and you have to use it. And it goes with, for a lot of skills in leadership. You know, when your boss asks you to do something, like in my case, it was to coordinate the renovation of a library. And she said, I think you can do it. And she said, what do you think? I'll give you time to think about it. But I just said yes. And it was the best thing I ever did. Was it easy? No. But I mean, amazing skills came out of that. Amazing knowledge of things that I had nothing, no knowledge about. And it just makes you a broader person. So I would suggest say yes. And use your library associations. I know they have student rates. I know they have mentorship programs. I know that, you know, they allow you to go to conferences for less money. Do that because you make contacts. Ask for people's business cards. They could be potentially your mentor. They could be potentially your next employer. So say yes. Take chances. Believe in yourself and be assertive about yourself. I think we've answered that. Thank you. Wonderful. Just before we get on to our last question, I want to open the floor again quickly. If anyone has a burning question that they want to ask them for their data. And perhaps while they're thinking about that, you can see on our screen, I'd like to ask you if there's anything that you'd recommend people read, a book or two? Or Dana, you talked about you're doing a lot of reading, presumably good articles that have influenced you. What do you suggest? Oh, sure. So I have a couple of suggestions. It's Dana. There are a lot of great articles on leadership from the Harvard Business Review. So I would suggest going online and searching leadership. You can do that. I think through the San Jose databases or through the Harvard Business Review website, because there's some wonderful articles in there. I would also suggest one book that I really found helpful was Drive by Daniel Pink. Another one is Influenced by Robert Cialdini. Those are both about just understanding how people tick. And I think it's helpful for getting to know yourself, helpful for getting to know other people. And a book that I just read for the leadership course that I keep going on about was Credibility by James. I think it's Kutsis and Barry Posner. And that is, as far as I understand it, one of the kind of seminal books in the field. And I found it incredibly influential in my thinking. So those would be, I guess, my top three books and some recommendations for articles. And I'm just, this Heather, I'm going to plug Julie Diamond's Power, a user's guide. Because in it, you actually can work through, it's a fairly lengthy process, but it's the entire questionnaires in the back of the book. And you can figure out what your power print is. And I think that's really, really important. It's all about knowing thyself, right? So pick that up. It's really a great book. Thank you. Sorry, just to lag there when I was typing those authors and titles into the chat for everyone. We are coming just two minutes to the hour. So I'm hoping, if anyone has a last question, they put it in the chat now. We don't want to go over time. We know people have to leave. But in the meantime, I want to thank Heather and Dana so very much for joining us for our series and for being so candid and open and informative about their jobs and their experiences and hopefully inspiration to those of you who are considering a leadership role. Any last words, Heather and Dana? You know what? If anybody wants to contact us, we are more than open to being contacted. Yes, answering questions. And we're just really pleased to be here. It's an honor. Thank you. Well, thank you both so much. And thank you to our participants. We look forward to seeing you at our next three webinars in the series. We have a question here about a list of topics for upcoming webinars. If you go to the San Jose School of Information website, we do have a list of all of our upcoming speakers. We're going to be featuring the University Librarian from the King Library, Kelvin Watson from Broward County Library, and Melissa Fraser Arnaut from the Library of Parliament in Canada. So we will be, however you found out about this webinar, you'll see the links for those upcoming series pushed out to you through the marketing team at the iSchool as well too.