 Welcome to our interview show in which we interview LGBTQ guests who are important contributors to our community. We want to acknowledge that all things LGBTQ is produced at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which is unceded Indigenous land. Enjoy the show. Hi everybody. I'm here with Julie Enzer, the editor and publisher of Sinister Wisdom. Welcome. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. I would like to read your bio, if I may, in the beginning. Sure. Julie, our answer is a scholar and poet. Her scholarship is at the intersection of US history and literature with particular attention to 20th century US feminist and lesbian histories, literatures and cultures. By examining lesbian print culture with the tools of history and literary studies, she reconsiders histories of the women's liberation movement and gay liberation. Her book manuscript, which we're here to talk about, a fine bind lesbian feminist publishing from 1969 through 2009 tells stories of a dozen lesbian feminist publishers to consider the meaning of the theoretical and political formations of lesbian feminism, separatism and cultural feminism, heady stuff. Her research has appeared or is forthcoming in southern cultures, Journal of Lesbian Studies, American periodicals, WSQ, frontiers and other journals. Enzer is the author of four collections of poetry, Avowed, Lilith Diamonds, Lilith Demons, Lilith Demons, Sisterhood and Handmade Love. She's the editor of the complete works of Pat Parker and Milk and Honey, a celebration of Jewish lesbian poetry. And Honey was a finalist for the Lambda Literary Award in lesbian poetry. She is the editor of Sinister Wisdom, as I said, a multicultural lesbian literary art journal, and a regular book reviewer and now contributing editor for the Lambda book, well, Lambda Literary Review and Calix. And she has her MFA and PhD from the University of Maryland. Welcome again. Thank you. I have some questions that I'd like to start with. How did you become interested in the topic. You know, from being a young reader and really discovering lesbian novels and one of the examples I often like to use is reading Ruby Fruit Jungle for the first time in 1987 or 1988. So it had been out for well over a decade at that point. And I encountered it in the little in the small mass market paperback by Bantam Books, right? Just how a lot of people see it now. And one day in the library at the University of Michigan where I went, I found the trade paperback book of Ruby Fruit Jungle that came out from daughters. And it just interested me so much, these sort of two additions and the different ways that I encountered them. You know, one as a course textbook in a women's studies class and then one is still in the library in this, you know, a very different size, a different format. There's no photograph of Rita May Brown on the back and of course by the late 80s Rita May Brown was also writing her cat mystery novels right and had had very high profile lesbian relationships and was a much was both an author but also a celebrity. So the difference between those two books really intrigued me and I, a lot of, I think my animating question going into doing my research for my PhD is like, how do these different books get in the world and what's the meaning and significance of them. And, you know, in addition to that in the late 80s I was reading all of the firebrand books that were just starting to come out. I was discovering. I was again discovering the difference between the different editions of this bridge called my back and all of these feminist classics and I wanted to know how do women publish their own books and put them out there in the world. And, and so that's really like that's really what brought me in to say this is this is interesting I want to know about it. And also, you know, as I, as I was discovering it and reading and and time was passing also we were seeing presses fold newspapers fold and not publish anymore. And magazines and so I was really I'm interested in the the life cycle of these of these community communications devices and community organizations and how how do they come into being how do they flourish and then how do they end. Although some are continuing. Exactly. Minister wisdom. Exactly sinister wisdoms continuing and loot books continues it's one of the surviving presses that I really love. And I add continuing through Bella books, and the ways and that's another thing you know of course you know from sinister wisdom one of my interests is, how do we transmit, and how do we bring and share with other generations things that we find a value practices that we feel like are community formations. And how do we, how do we share those and how do we help organizations last and extend their life. How, why, the chronological demarcation why between 1969 and 2009. 1969 is easy to answer because that's really when women's press collective was kind of this nascent formation out there in the Bay Area and I really start with that as a press. I think 1969 1970 is this time where feminism where feminism has more has more of its footing where many women who are lesbians it's kind of are inspired by everything that's happening with gay liberation. And so I think like that's a period where this whole idea of lesbian feminist as, as two words linked together with power becomes meaningful and so that's kind of where I start out and move from. Now, I have to confess 2009. I had hoped to finish this book manuscript in 2015. It's still not quite done though it's very close. But so in 2013, when I thought that I was going to finish in 2015 2009 seemed like a good period, a good time frame to end. And, you know, there's, there's a satisfying aspect of it being 40 years. I think which is a part of the timeframe. I want, I want to take. And as I said I'm interested in this intergenerational communication and ways that we pass things down so I wanted the timeframe to be large enough to give a sense that this is and continues to be a viable ongoing way of organizing and a way of doing work in the world. I'm deeply inspired by Joan Pinkfoss's work at ant loop press by the work that happens at Bella books by the kind of continuing work that women do around publishing books and journals, and getting them into the world so that's so that's especially why I want it to be an expansive history so that people don't say this is this is a relic of the past because in fact there's so much that continues to happen. And so many of us continue to find strength and meaning from that work that has happened in the past. Well that leads into my next question. How has lesbian print culture evolved over time, if you say. So. So interesting, I have always marveled at the work women did in when they when you would actually physically do paste up of pages to send them to the printers right and and in all forms of print people did this both for books and for papers and magazines they would like you would literally type set something on it on an IBM selectrix or some kind of typewriter cut it out, paste it on big boards which would then go to the printer and they would make films and then, and then it would go through the print process. I think one of the, one of the early fascinations about the work that people did in the 70s and 80s is the amount of physical, the way the physical labor was different to produce books and journals and magazines and newspapers, and the way technology has changed things. And of course, one of the things that made the press as possible in the 1970s was other forms of technology like mimeograph, right, and like Xerox there's all of these stories in women's letters around the feminist, feminist publishing of like, well, send you know drop this off at my house and when I go into the office, and my boss is at lunch I'll make 200 copies, and then you can fold and cut and like turn them into a chat book or whatever the project was that we were working on. So, technology is one of the through lines that we always that I really see in the narrative of the book. And at the same time it's dread, it's radically transformed right, I don't do paste up anymore now we do everything on computers. But in this in just the past couple of months we've had this huge technology glitch with sinister wisdom, where our January issue was dropped at the post office on December 29. And it just arrived to me last Friday and it's just getting out to subscribe out to subscribers and I say it's a technology glitch in terms of because the US Postal Services the technology we use to distribute the journal. And they had challenges from cuts from the previous administration and COVID and they had all of these slowdowns and so the journal has struggled to get out there. And it's one of the moments where I really felt like external technology. The struggles that that women experienced with that that I write about in the book and that I've written about in other places. I was experiencing it as well. I blame that on Lewis DeJoy. I do too. I, well, I ultimately blame it on the former president, but Lewis DeJoy can take lots of blame as well. But you know it's this this ecosystem right of how we're interacting with these different technologies these modes of production and distribution. So digital technology can be described as lesbian print culture also then. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And what is the future of lesbian print culture would you say I was just reading there's this great new journal I think it's the second that they produce it as a PDF I think I was just reading if I recall right there's second issue lesbians are magic is the title I think it's lesbians are magic calm. But I think if you Google that it'll show up I a poet that I know had a poem published in it and so I read about it in her newsletter and went and downloaded it and was thrilled and delighted. Because I think that, you know, it's harder for me to say what the future looks like. I'm always excited to be living in a present where there are lots of different independent lesbian journals lesbian publishing projects where people are interested in thinking about how do we take our words and our ideas and put them out in the world using the tools that are available to us. I, you know, ultimately I think that's what women were doing in 1969 in 1979 in 1984, all throughout the book and I think that's what we continue to do so in that way I'm always excited about what the future holds because I think that lesbian stories are so vital they're so vital to us and they're so vital within our communities that we always want to get them out and we want to get them out in the world in our own ways like and with our own sort of set of integrity and so I think that means that we're always in need for independent lesbian publishing and and that we sort of think about that and reinvent it each each generation so that we can speak to each other and speak to the future. There's another new lesbian publication coming out of Brooklyn called WMM Dean. Yes, yes I love it. They are fabulous. They're fabulous it's a beautiful beautifully printed. Yes I ordered them all when they came out we put them in the sinister wisdom newsletter it's they're fantastic yes. And we had them on the show they're energetic and committed and lesbian focused. Excellent yep. Tell us about the book, like, who do you talk about how is it organized. So, I, it's organized into four sections right and I, I talked first about the, you know, the people, the first, a first wave the people in the 1970s who really started who really said, lesbians have books in them and we should publish them as lesbian publishers right. And so I look at, I spent a lot of time on women's press collective, because I love them. And of course, you know, Judy gron pat Parker was a part of them. And, and there were archives available. And also right in that chapter about Diana press, right, where, where read May Brown's first collection of poetry was published, or republished after NYU press published it. But so Diana press which ultimately merges with women's press collective. I also talk about Daughters, Inc. and June Arnold and Park bowman. I have to confess I'm still kind of in love with Park bowman. Never matter, right, but she just is such a huge wonderful character. So that's, that's sketches out some of the 1970s. Then I go on to the 1980s and I really think about. If the folks in the 1970s had the vision that that this could be done. A lot of people in the 1980s were thinking about how can we do it better right so people were aware of what had happened in the past, and we're working to try and build a better mouse trap. And so I look I do a chapter on Persephone press. And think in particular, they're such a great model for thinking about the ways that intersectionality was a part of feminism and a part of lesbianism from very early on, which is a narrative that we sometimes lose track of. And they're also a great example of they had the vision and the chutzpah to really do things and struggled with the business side of things. And then, and it's really they become kind of pivotal for thinking about the next generation, which are people who have business experience in publishing or who really understand business in fundamental ways. And that's why I really look at Nancy Beriano's fire brand press, and Barbara Greer's night at books, and both of them I think really understood the commercial part of publishing, and understood that publishing could be commercially viable for lesbians. They did it in different ways, but they're both really interesting. And then, you know, the last part is really thinking about survivors and looking at ant loot and spinsters and how they started in started separately came together for a while then broke up but continue publishing legacies and thinking about and I really think about, you know, I do think that a lot of scholars have written about 2000, you know, things start to change in the book world in 2000. And I think a lot of times I hear in lesbian and feminist communities like people feel like feminism falls apart or, or somehow we weren't quite good enough to sustain what we had you know people feel this about the women's stores and women's newspapers and all of this. And one of the arguments I make is, you know, that's absolutely not true. That's, that's bunk. It's not that feminism or lesbian feminism was somehow flawed and we couldn't sustain things. And one of the reasons that there's a broader economic system that's happening that's changing things that creates challenges within book publishing, within print publishing, and what what we see happening within the lesbian feminist publishers is is not some logical failure that they have, nor is it a failure of their business sense. It's a reaction to broader economic trends which are falling apart of advertising a challenge of neoliberal capitalism, where larger becomes better and less space in the marketplace for smaller distributors. And there's all of this consolidation that happens. And I think those are the things that ultimately bring an end to some of these presses and some of them like ant loot say well we have to think about this a different way and we have to do business a different way given the conditions of capitalism that we're dealing with right now. So lesbian print culture is continuing. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we're trying to figure out how to make independent lesbian print culture independent lesbian writing our literature viable in a capitalist system that is devaluing all of our labor and intellectual work. Well that's wonderful and I'm confident that lesbian print culture will prevail. I'm really looking forward to the publication of your book we'll have to have you on again when it comes out. Thank you. Yes. Julie answer. Thank you for joining us. All right. As people who routinely watch all things LGBTQ, you know that we'd like to follow legislative action. And currently there is a bill that has been introduced to our legislature h 128 representative Taylor small is one of the co sponsors. In this message, this bill would put in place a ban on the use of a trans gay panic defense in a criminal act. As part of the initial testimony, state space from the pride center, introduced statistics about the incidence of violence against LGBTQ people and I will tell you that I was taken aback. I have invited and from the pride center and say space to talk to us about the program and those statistics. Welcome and Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here today. I'm glad that you could join us because this is an important issue and as I had mentioned to you. Talking about LGBTQ plus violence here in Vermont is not something that anybody else is reporting. So it's been a while since people from safe space have been on so could you tell us just briefly. What is the state space programs you offer. Sure. Yeah, so the safe space anti violence program is a program that's housed within the pride center of Vermont, and we're a statewide program and we serve LGBTQ plus people in Vermont who've experienced harm violence and or discrimination. We're intentionally broad in hopes to kind of capture the full scope of the impacts, and the experiences that our community kind of go through so, but kind of more traditional ways we think about that could be someone accessing our services because of sexual violence or domestic violence or maybe discrimination at their employment. And we, we provide services to folks in a couple different ways we have a support line. It's not a hotline it's not 24 seven we say it's a warm line. And that's when the pride center is open, which is Monday through Thursday, 10 to six, and Friday 10 to two, and that number is 802863003. And you can also find that on our website pride center vt.org, and you click safe space. And also on our website is a confidential web chat line. So if we're going to kind of go into kind of trends that we've seen with increased violence and one way that our program has responded to the fact that now more than before people are living in closer proximity with people who are causing them harm. We wanted to recognize that calling might not be an option for folks. So this is what this kind of confidential chat line has been set up for so. And it's really easy for us to know who's chatting it's completely anonymous. And it's really easy for you to exit out should you have to quickly leave the website. And then you can also read just via email which is safe space at pride center vt.org. And like I said our advocacy looks really different it could just be emotional support. It could just be, you know, providing systems advocacy helping someone navigate the courts or the medical system. And it could also be resource connection. So connecting people to different resources or options that they might need. It's really determined by the person so it really is an individual basis and we're there and we're, we're ready and happy to listen. So, I hope you reach out. If you're listening to this and you need our services. Those are very impressive programs. How did you become involved with the safe space program. Yeah, so I am not originally from Vermont I grew up in Michigan, but I had come to Vermont to do my undergraduate education and when I was there. I did the internship with Mike in the glam program. So glam intern. That's how I first knew about pride center and he had then I went off and I actually lived in Sweden for several years, and I worked there with people in Sweden you can, as I believe you can hear but it is a little different. Apply for asylum on the basis of LG, a gender and or sexual identity discrimination in the home country so I worked with refugees and asylum seekers in Sweden, and when it was time to come back. My heart was kind of in that LGBTQ plus advocacy work. I had kind of had the connection and the good experience with pride center and I was just fortunate enough that a job with safe space opened up when I was coming back to Vermont so. And so I've been with safe space, maybe like two and a half years now. So looking at what the last four years, and the increase in hate groups within the US. Some of what you were providing to the committee was a reflection of how that increase in hate group activity was impacting our communities. Yeah, so, so the numbers that I had reported to the committee I looked back to our numbers from 2018 and 2019. And for those of you are interested we have to do quarterly reporting to the Voka victims of crime act and so that's where I pulled these numbers from. In 2018 and 2019 about where the, where's that number I should have memorized by now I've said it so much. 43% of all of the survivors that we served had experienced some kind of hate violence, and our definition of hate violence is not strictly just hate crimes we also include it. So include like persistent discrimination, for example, in that so any hate based violence. So 43% of folks on average from 2018 to 2019 had experienced that, and then I looked back from our most recent report, which was the last three months. So I believe that the October through January of this past year and it had increased to 55%. And now I want to say that we how we classify, or how we kind of quantify this data is that hate violence is in its own category from domestic and family violence, which we've, we've also seen an increase. So in 2018 and 2019, there was an average about 20 and a half percent of people we served were experiencing domestic violence. We include family violence in the definition of domestic violence. And then the past three months, about 40% of people we served have been impacted by domestic violence. Okay, those numbers just in staggering to me. I mean that that sounds as though, you know, regardless of the work that we have tried to do here in Vermont with acceptance and inclusion that social change hasn't necessarily followed that. And that the rise of hate that we were seeing in other parts of the country is very evident here as well. Is that accurate. Yeah, absolutely. And I think also part of my testimony I was saying that just really heartbreakingly 2020 is being considered the deadliest year for trans and gender non conforming folks and while, you know, we haven't seen fatalities fries in Vermont in that regard like it's definitely it feels like it's following that trend of increased hate in our state. And I also understand that the pride center itself in the last several years has been a target of vandalism and hate based action. Yeah, yeah, us and outright Vermont and it's also a heavy static in Burlington I believe the most recent one so there's also the anti Semitic hate along with that as well. So, look, there was the piece of legislation that was introduced to put in place a ban on the use of trans and gay panic defenses. Are there other things that should be happening now that we as a community should be supporting or be aware of in response to this increase in hate within our state. That's a really, so really great. And I feel like nuance complex question right I feel like we could talk for hours about this. But I think the piece I kind of want to highlight to or at least how we're sort of making sense in this rise is we're seeing that more often than not especially in the past three months that this hate is being perpetrated or this harm is being caused by neighbors, landlords and employers, as well as intimate partners with the domestic violence. So, it's really it's a, it's happening at home. And we think we're seeing this because people are in more constant contact with people who are causing them harm. So, you know, as far as that goes I mean I think it really kind of comes down to the that the day to day interactions of just saying of knowing that these are happening in these communities that I think unfortunately a lot of us know can pinpoint that the house on the block or the neighbor who has, you know, anti LGBT q plus sentiment sentiments, not sentiments, and saying that like, this is this is not tolerated in our state. And you know that's not to say that people haven't been saying that already, right, been saying it for decades and decades, but, but it is interesting that right now that we are seeing that it's really happening, kind of neighbor to within these within our communities more now. And if I heard the statement you may previously correctly. Some of this is a direct result of COVID frustration that, you know, I have been confined for so long. This is is dwindling. So, all of those biases that may have been somewhat dormant of sort of risen to the surface. Right, right. And you know, I'm no political analyst but I can play one on TV now that I'm sure that like the past three months that we looked at was you know October to January I do wonder how much the election has influenced that rise that we saw. And I also, what was the right. Okay, yeah, thank you that that's what also the other thought I had about in regards to coven is that we're also seeing that folks have less options. Whereas before maybe we could help get them out of a situation, which you know we still can but there are less options for safe shelters or maybe someone might have the option of like going and staying with their friend or their family member whereas now that might not feel safe. So I think it's also it's escalating more because there's less of a release around that as well. So, so we need our people in positions of leadership to continue making their statements that it is not tolerated here and naming it when it happens, which I have been really pleased with. Okay, so moving forward, as as coven has continued. Are there any changes that safe space is thinking of putting into place, specifically in response to coven. Great question I mean, I think we put in that that anonymous chat line, but I really think that like coven like with so many of us has really made us reconsider the ways in which we're connecting with people and how how we're getting our outreach out there and in what does safety, like what is safety for people. And I think it's really interesting to this is a slight tangent but we've been putting on together LGBTQ plus town hall series and I had, which are amazing there's always one coming up on aging on February 18. But I led one on housing and we were talking about the impacts of coven and housing and what does safe housing mean for folks, and a lot of people came back and answered space. Because the pandemic like space is something that I would consider to constitute safe housing. So I think right now with the town hall series to especially is is collecting of like, what hat what is our communities views on on what is safe and what support looks like for them and how is that changed. And then how can we kind of adapt our services to meet those needs. Now, I want to circle back a bit because as as you were talking about safe space, and the responses from our community. I didn't ask you, you know, you had referenced that 2020 was the most lethal year for transgender, particularly women of color, looking at the people who are approaching the safe space now for services. Are we following that trend that people who identify as transgender may be singled out more than other parts of our community, or is it just unilateral right now. I don't have the specific percentages on that but we are seeing that trans and gender non conforming people are are experiencing violence, kind of across the board at higher rates than cisgender folks are. Yeah, that's kind of what I suspected but I needed to clarify it. I understand that I understand in the near future that the pride center might be having an announcement to make about the safe space program. Correct. That's correct. Yeah, so. Okay, and, and safe space became one of the member programs that the Vermont network against domestic and sexual violence correct. That's correct. You can only have your own internal resources you have that network that you can reach out to for support is needed. And it also gives you some access to victim crime services to provide some additional support. With that, any, any closing comments that you would like to give to members of our community as to how we can best support the work of safe space. And I would say, reach out to one another. This is, this is a tough time, like connect with people connect with friends connect with your chosen family, and, you know, for the survivors out there, like we're here when you're ready on your time so I know that that we're here as a resource and yes, COVID is hard and those changing the landscape for how we're providing services, but we're here to figure it out together. So, yeah, that that you are an LGBTQ plus specific service. So I don't have to worry about having to translate my experience so that you have an understanding. Absolutely, we say we are, we are by queer people for queer people so. As it should be and with that. Thank you and, and I look forward to your, your announcement coming up and inviting you all back. Thanks Keith. If any of you who are regular viewers will note, we've been trying to spend some time looking at resources advocacy, how Vermont's LGBTQ plus elders might move forward. In speaking in that series of interviews, joining me today are two people associated with the same main organization and equality main and their sage project. So the first person I'd like to introduce is John Hennessy. Welcome John. Thank you Keith nice to be here. Thank you so much for making time. So, as I understand john, you were one of the people who were a co founder for the sage main when it first started. Did you tell us a little bit about when that happened. And what it was that you and the other founders would hope to come out of that same main organization. Sure. By way of background, this, this whole idea started about 11 years ago. I was working for a ARP ARP main of course, and I was invited to a national aging conference hosted by a group called sage. I'd never heard of it to be honest with you. And ARP was a strong partner with sage nationally, and was encouraging state offices to, to, to get familiar and to understand what sage was all about so I was thrilled to go down to New York, and meet 400 of my new best friends from all over the country indeed all over and I was thrilled to, to talk about LGBT aging. I, to be, again, Keith, perfectly honest, I hadn't identified the population as needing something called sage until I found out about sage and then I was hooked. And coincidentally sage was very, very interested in establishing an affiliate in Maine. As you know between Maine and Florida we flip back and forth who's the oldest state per capita. And Maine of course, has always had a high. Again per capita I recognize we're a very small state, but we've always had a strong presence of LGBT people and particularly couples. We've ranked either it we've always ranked in the in the top 10 in the country. And of course those people were aging. So again with the resources of the ARP behind to Maine, and said how do we establish an organization like this here. And I pulled together a stakeholder group which at the time was maybe about 18 people across the state. And we convened. We were ahead of the curve when it came to technology we were able to do zoom like presentations back in 2010 and 11 so we were very lucky, because Maine geographically was was was a challenge, but people came together quickly because they they had a, they had a sense that the community was in need of something that like say, could offer. And we found out, because we put together the statewide needs assessment. Absolutely, you know, get get information from our from our community all over the state about what they were looking for as they age. And as you and I were talking earlier, it was about staying at home as they age staying at home safely as they age. So we worked with the University of New England to put together the most comprehensive eight statewide needs assessment that sage had ever seen before. So much so that they held it up as an example for other states and other Sage affiliates as an example of how to do something really well I was very, very proud of that report. I might find this interesting that sage at that time pushed back on us Keith because they said they'd never had a statewide affiliate before they wanted us to consider being sage southern Maine or sage Greater Portland, if you will, and the people around that said absolutely not it's sage mean or nothing. And I, I honored that decision then I honored that decision today, but I don't know that we realized how big a challenge that was because of the size of our state geographically. What I'm hearing from you is that the effective strategy is first ensuring that everybody's at the table with a voice. You know, Vermont the same as main or is challenged by rural locations. I also heard you saying partnering with someone that has a degree of expertise and really getting information about what the needs are. I also heard you referencing AARP a great deal. Were they a good partner in this project. It wouldn't have happened without AARP. The, like I mentioned the at the national level sage has been affiliated with AARP probably going on 30 years now sage started as a New York based organization and AARP going back into the 30 let's go say early 90s AARP recognized that the LGBT population was underserved community in their in their vast portfolio remember AARP at any given date has about 40 million members across the country. So that when when when the AARP wants to help you do something you're going to say yes. So my advice to the folks in Vermont would be to reach out to AARP Vermont right away to see what kind of resources they might offer to help identify the population do a needs assessment etc etc. So when you went to that first meeting, and you met the people from sage you said you were impressed by what they had to offer and realized oh my we need this. What was it that they were offering that got your attention. Well, of course it was based in New York he so they had an on a native New Yorker. So I'm a little bit proud. They have everything at the stage, the sage chapter in New York has all kinds of services that they offer to to to the community, whether it's case management service was whether it's congregate meal settings whether it's any kind of counseling or other therapies that you that you'd be interested. They had social programs, exercise programs, whatever you would want to to as an aging person, they had it. Their facility was open I believe from eight o'clock in the morning till eight o'clock at night, six days a week, and then shorter hours on Sunday. When you when you walked into their to their facility you could just feel the energy you could feel the pride, you could feel the joy that people had being together as you know in this community because as as as we age and it's not unique to the LGBT population but as we age in this society in America particularly we become invisible and irrelevant in some places. But sage was not about to let that happen in fact for the longest time and maybe it still is their tagline was we refuse to be invisible. That that spoke to me as a person in the community who was aging, and I thought this was really something I wanted to be to be affiliated with that that's an incredibly good motto. So I understand though that sage main merged or became a part of a quality main. Could you tell us a little bit about what was behind bringing those two organizations together. Sure, for the first five almost six years sage main was a volunteer run organization and doing fairly well, establishing networks all across the state, but we, we, we came to the realization back in probably the early part of 2019, because I went to a sage affiliate meeting in port in the other Portland in Portland, Oregon, and I listened to what other sage affiliates were able to do that had full time staff that had an affiliate with with another organization like their equality Federation organization, and I came back and I said this is what we have to do. And I worked with the, the then board of it, and convinced them that we had to consider for the sustainability of the organization and for the growth of the organization to consider a merger with our partners that equality main. And that was met with immediate interest from the folks at a quality main. Of course, with, you know, our period of due diligence was was was extensive, and ultimately the merger came together and we couldn't be any happier. I understand that you're on an advisory committee for a quality main specifically in relationship to the sage project. Well I was invited to join the board of a quality main as, as some kind of, I hate I hesitate to use these words but institutional memory. So that the sage program didn't, you know, just didn't flounder and and of course then they asked me to be the liaison to the sage program and I said yes. Okay, as we become elders that you know historical memory component is something we contend with the great deal. So that leads us very well introducing Alyssa Miller. Hi Alyssa. Hello. Alyssa I understand it. You're an AmeriCorps VISTA person who is currently working with a quality main, and you are the program assistant for the sage project. Yes, I am very excited to be spending my year of service at a quality main. I saw the listing for this position and immediately knew it was something I was interested in doing. So essentially my, my day to day work has been coordinating sage programming and sage services over the past six months, which has definitely looked very different than it might look in normal everyday circumstances, as we contend with the challenges that coronavirus brings to the situation. I think that's indeed very true as, as our organizations in Vermont are also experiencing. So, if, if I'm an LGBTQ elder in Maine, and I approach the same project. What is it that I could expect that you're going to offer to me. At the moment, a lot of our programming is focused on reducing isolation for folks who have been essentially in their homes now for a year with very limited capacity to meet other people in person. So we've been offering a lot of social programming via the platform zoom. So we have a monthly speaker series where we bring in speakers to talk about relevant topics to the community. So we had someone talk about mental health, especially through the holiday season this year. We also had someone talk about the COVID-19 vaccine and what to expect because this was before it had started to reach members in our community. We also have just some more lighthearted social situations. So we have a bi-weekly happy hour that happens twice a month that has been very fun and relaxed is just a way to connect with the community. And we also have a monthly cooking class where members will come teach a recipe that they know, and people can follow along. So that's been really fun. I've learned recipes from those programs. But that's been a primary focus for the past couple of months is really trying to fill these months that have looked so different for so many people with ways to still have meaningful connections, especially during the holiday season. And that was a big focus. We hosted an online Thanksgiving, which was really, really nice to help kind of mark the holiday for folks who probably were not able to gather either with extended family or with chosen family. And I really was glad to be part of that experience. When when COVID eventually, or as we get used to COVID and, you know, we sort of move into the next phase, or is there additional programming that the Sage project is looking at developing or resuming again. Yeah, so before COVID, there would be monthly dinners and these were a really big staple point of the organization in which the meals were offered at a very low cost to make them more accessible for folks. And they were also a gathering place monthly for lots of folks to get together. And I think that was a really important cornerstone of the community speakers could also come in. It could be it was used as kind of an announcement forum to get information out there. And so once we are able to gather in person, that is definitely a goal for us to be able to host again. There are other things we're definitely interested in on the horizon. Sage mean has held a biannual aging symposium. That was a great way for folks to gather to get information to to share resources, learn from experts and talk about aging issues within the community. And so why we are holding a version of that online in April. It's not the same as hosting it in person and we'd like to be able to do one in person when things are open again. It sounds like all of these activities are sort of has the vision of creating community. And knowing that made in Vermont care that rural quality that you know we have some strong metropolitan areas, but then some people may live 10 miles away from their nearest neighbor. So what is it that sage has done in Maine to try and respond to that rural quality. I think one of the benefits of it being a statewide organization has meant that there have been some regional groups that have developed within sage mean to make it so gatherings can be closer to people's houses. There was a gathering in Portland, there was a gathering in Augusta, there wasn't a gathering in bingor and so that kind of helped to reach more people across the state. One thing I have found really interesting as a benefit of of the zoom time is that we can host statewide events on zoom and people don't have to travel. So that is actually allowed us to reach some folks that we might not have been able to normally, especially if they live in a more rural area. We've also begun to implement. We had a phone call program run for three months this year to help reach folks who might not necessarily feel comfortable on zoom or or or feel super comfortable with technology, but might have a phone. So that was really nice to run as well and try and reach more people in our community. So, talking about that sort of outreach and different areas has sage done anything to try and help elders learn technology. We have referred several people to the national digital equity center which is actually based in mean and and trying to help get people connected with that organization. We've also done some referrals to like the area agencies on aging, sometimes have courses and things like that. We, in the beginning of the pandemic wrote up some written instructions and also made some video examples of how to connect to zoom and how to use zoom and put those on our main page on the phone as well. Okay, I was going to say zoom has become almost the necessary skill to survive covered. Okay, so with that I want to thank both of you for sharing this time with you and ask if each of you suggest in closing. If there was one thing that we should focus on here in Vermont, as we look at reaching out to LGBTQ plus elders. What would that be and and john you can go first. I would just follow up my enthusiastic endorsement would be for you to reach out to the area agencies on aging Vermont I don't know how many there, there might be. But they were fast partners with us. They made so many things possible the congregate meal program for example because of their federal funding we were able to tap into the meals on wheels budget to make this happen so the area agencies on aging. They are the experts, they will help you. I believe it's in their charter to work with underserved populations, and with the new federal administration in place, they will be a wealth of resource for you and for the community. I guarantee. I think the biggest thing I've really taken away from being here and john kind of referenced it when talking about the founding of sage is just getting as many voices and perspectives at the table as you can it's really a collaborative effort. So when we've been planning these big events, I've personally been really assisted by having so many community members help give feedback help talk about what the needs and the ones are. And it's really a group effort it's about creating community both within the people volunteering and serving the organization, and then expanding that out to community members. Okay. And so with that. Thank you, and I look forward to us getting back together in a year and sharing. These are the things we've done. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you in two weeks, but in the meantime, resist.