 You just tuned in to the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast on YouTube. This is my You're gonna love today's episode. I interviewed John Romano. This guy's an icon in the muscle building world He's been writing articles about the all things muscle building including the dark side For years. In fact, I grew up reading this guy stuff. I love talking one because he's super honest So if you want to know all the stuff that you probably can't learn From traditional websites the stuff that you can only learn from talking about people who know all the secrets Including how to use anabolic steroids and all that stuff. You're gonna love this episode By the way, John has a great podcast called fitness fame and fortune if you like honest No holds barred Conversation if you like John go check out his podcast. It's freakin awesome. Oh and by the way leave a comment Underneath this video in the first 24 hours that we drop this podcast And if we pick your comment if we like your comment, we'll send you a free t-shirt right to your door and this shirt is Incredible not gonna lie. It does make you stronger and sexier instantly instantly put it on boom stronger and sexier So if you want a shirt leave a comment also turn on your notifications and subscribe to this channel one more thing before We get going we are running a promotion on two workout programs and a bundle here They are they're all 50% off. We have maps hit. That's high intensity interval training We have maps split. That's a bodybuilder split workout program and then we have the bikini bundle That's multiple workout programs combined and put together all of them 50% off Go check them out go to maps fitness products calm and then use the code spring break for 50% off All right, enjoy this controversial, but fun podcast John. Good to see you again my friend Good to see you too. Oh, thank you my nice big chair You know, this is always weird for me because and I we had you on mine pump a while ago I think this is before it's like an episode 900 something so it's since then we've done. I don't know 600 episodes or so and This is always weird because You're I grew up reading all your stuff. You were You know when I was reading everything I could about Building muscle burning body fat body building and especially when I was reading about all the stuff that you know You're not supposed to talk about or whatever You were the guy, you know, you were the guy So it's really cool to be able to talk to you like this and have you on my show So it's kind of surreal But we do have a larger audience since the last time I had you on probably a lot of new listeners I'd love for you to give a little bit of Background to start you are a what I consider a guru in in bodybuilding but in particular you're known for knowing all the all the information about Performance enhancing drugs steroids how athletes use them the good the bad and the ugly so how did you learn all this? How did you get into this the space? I? Wouldn't have all the information but I have enough. Let's put it that way How did I get into it? You know, I was I happened to be at the right place at the right time, you know, I Happen to be in prison with a guy named Dan Duchin and it all kind of started from there, so You know that was 1989 something around there and you know, I just got interested in the problem-solving aspect of performance enhancement, and he was the guru the original guru and pretty much discovered I would say 90 percent or more of what Bodybuilders and strength athletes even track athletes and to some degree Olympic athletes use to this day to enhance their performance so So let's talk about that a little bit It's pretty well known that athletes at high levels Use performance enhancing drugs which can include everything from testosterone steroids growth hormones and then all There's a lot more than that as well. When did athletes really start experimenting with with these substances? probably in the 1930s, I think that the the Olympic athletes were were availed to What the Western Europeans I mean the Eastern European block nations were doing and and they were you know, typically I Don't think you can fits fair to call it cheating at the time because really You know there I guess, you know There's there's been sort of a set of rules that limit your ability to enhance performance and since the beginning of time In the memorial that those rules have been promulgated There has been a faction of athletes and coaches hell bent on beating them. So You know, it just it just poses interesting propositions and and you know as as you go along with You know trying to to to beat drug tests to cheat to whatever You know technology just increases and it gets better and better Yeah, I recall the was it the East German Female swim team was I think that was probably when people started to really Pay attention, you know, they all come out of the locker room Looking like you know like like me and they blew everybody out You know of the water essentially was that when people started to really pay attention like what's going on? It was it was the East German swimmers, you know, they had a they had a pretty noticeable Masculinizing effect to them to be kind You know the Russians the Bulgarians they were they were all they were all You know doing it and with with women with men. It just didn't matter. It was their their mindset was win Um However, you do that you just win so it didn't matter whether women were given up their femininity It didn't matter if men were having a heart attack that none of that mattered to Eastern countries What matter is gold medals winning prestige, you know, the the bragging rights of winning When would you say it started to get more popular in America with our professional athletes? I would assume the Probably started in the Olympics and then you'd start seeing it maybe in football. I would assume is that was that where you'd say the first Kind of widespread use of of anabolic started happening Well, there was there were several disciplines sort of vying at the same time. There was cycling there was Olympic lifting there was bodybuilding and there was track and field and and All of those disciplines were utilizing their own brands of performance enhancement That's sort of all culminated into them discovering that wow hormones are the way to go. So, um That that I football players were taken diana ball Cyclists were experimenting with epo and and and other stimulants And in fact, there's a there's a spot on the on the tour de france route that commemorates the spot where a famous cyclist I forgot his name french guy died during the course of the race of of emphatomoon overdose so um track and field that we're using emphatomines testosterone Uh drugs like windstrawl that we're supposed to you know, keep you lean and and tighten fast and whatever Um, I think ben johnson failed his drug test first and that was all so Um, you know, there was kind of all going at the same time. Then you had some notables pop out You know, you had you had, you know in the late 80s You had, you know, you had lil alzado and you had ben johnson and you had uh football players You know parent groups are worrying about their football player sons taken diana ball So it was kind of like a cauldron all brewing at the same time I don't think he can actually pinpoint it to one specific element. Yeah, um, so you you mentioned a few different Uh steroids you said, you know windstrawl and then you mentioned testosterone What's the difference between? testosterone and the other anabolic steroid now testosterone is considered a steroid Hormone steroid refers to the just the chemical structure. I mean technically cholesterol is a steroid But what's the difference between testosterone and other steroids? Why make other steroids? I I think the first thing you got to do is understand the difference between androgens What we call androgens and what we call anabolic So what's termed an androgen is typically Obviously something of a high androgenic value with testosterone um being the baseline so, um Drugs that were more Androgen were as or more androgenic than testosterone, but less anabolic were termed androgens and drugs that were More anabolic and less androgenic were termed steroids the difference being for most not all most steroids steroids are and a a mountain under an amalgam a structural change On the molecular level to testosterone So you start with testosterone you augment the the structural formation of the molecule and you have a new drug and a drug that could be either More anabolic and less androgenic than testosterone or less androgenic and or more androgenic and less anabolic depending on what you're looking for You know strength athlete, you know power lifters They want more androgens speed and strength athletes speed in it and endurance athletes want less bulk more density You know a higher endurance threshold So it just matters what you know sport you're pursuing is going to dictate what Cycle of drugs you're going to use okay, so what's the what are the main differences then between anabolic and androgenic and my for my knowledge anabolic is building muscle right pro I guess protein synthesis androgenic is Everything that turns you into a man, you know my voice lowering growing facial hair that kind of stuff Am I am I hitting the nail on the head and if that's the case? Why would you want one over the other? What are the benefits of an androgenic steroid versus one that's more anabolic? The more androgenic the drug is the more androgenic effect you're going to have and which includes the secondary sexual characteristics of a male, you know the deep voice the hair the Lowered body fat all of the increased muscle mass all of those things that differentiate men from women The problem with androgens is that they come with significant side effects most of which are undesirable for bodybuilding and you know other drugs too and women so Um, you you want you want to mitigate the the the bad side effects, which would be acne wild hair growth aggression Water weight gain, you know all kinds of you know things of that nature whereas Anabolics tend to have less of the androgenic effect and are just typically more anabolic They're not as anabolic as the androgen, but they are nevertheless anabolic with less side effects So what typically you would do is you would pick an androgen typically testosterone and you'd stack a steroid or two on top of it So you have the base androgenic effect which you want But you also mitigate the undesirable effects by adding the the steroid So you're getting a greater anabolic effect to some total of the mixture It is going to give you a greater anabolic effect and a net lower androgenic side effect Which is less does undesirable side effects now Being somebody who's experimented with them yourself and then having worked with so many athletes What does it feel like to be on a highly anabolic low androgenic Steroid versus one that's very androgenic and low anabolic. What what is the difference in feel? It it's psychological is the is the feel because A high androgen dose and you've heard the term roid rage You know that's There's a and it also it also depends on how susceptible you are to it I know guys that can take a gram and a half of test a week and there's docile as puppies I know guys who can take a you can Walk by a drug store that sells testosterone and they're dragging people out of their cars and beating them up So it just depends on what your propensity towards unbridled aggression is If you are susceptible to aggression testosterone is definitely going to bring it out of you You know So that is the probably the biggest feel and if you can channel That aggression in the gym you will find yourself putting up some pretty impressive personal records As far as antibiotics go what that feels like the feel of that is more You look in the mirror and you just see yourself getting denser and harder and vaneer and leaner and and it's just it's kind of like a self A self-progressing You know kind of thing that you see you see yourself improving so you work harder and that's the kind of psychological Aspect of that. They're very different. Okay, so that makes sense I could see how some people would like the feel Of an androgen a strong androgen because that aggressive feeling. I mean, I like that when I work out And then the anabolic of course the aesthetics, uh, you know that go along with it What are some of your favorite? steroids that are high in Highly androgenic would it just be testosterone? Is that your favorite on that list? Well, yeah, testosterone is by far the best most Useful baseline drug to consider when you're talking about using performance enhancing drugs Mainly because it's the it's the testosterone in the bottle is no different structurally from the testosterone your body produces so You know the source of it's different, but the structure the chemical is the same So your body is used to dealing with that you add more of it It's just your body is used to dealing with it versus, you know other things on top of that. They're completely foreign to your body so I always would suggest That the baseline component to a stack is testosterone and you go up on top of that depending on what you want So if it what what's your goal? Your goal is going to determine, you know, what else you're going to do That's not to say that all steroid stacks start with testosterone. They don't there's completely legitimate what we call aesthetic Stacks that have, you know the things like Equipoison deca, you know, that's that's for a very mild, you know, non problematic You can do low dose get a lot of gain out of it. Um, but you're not going to be jay cutler. So, um That that leads us into a whole other aspect of misconceptions is that is that The giant bodybuilder if you do his drugs, you're going to look like him and that's Completely not the case although a lot of people consider that Formula when they're deciding what they want to do and it's just nuts So, you know, I you know, obviously being in the space as long as I have I've heard uh, and done my own reading on certain compounds, uh, I remember people referring to A steroid like anadrol as uh, gorilla steroids like you take this and you just gain A pound a day or whatever. I mean, is that true? And if it is how's it working? Yeah Anadrol is a great drug, you know, it has its purpose It can also be a terrible drug It just depends on how you use it for how long you use it how old you are when you use it They all play a role in what you're going to get out of it. Um, it's just uh I'm sorry. I lost your yeah. Oh the question is I remember hearing about it as being this one you take and you just Oh, yeah, like crazy. Yeah. Well, I mean if if you do you got to differentiate what the weight is I mean, it's it's mostly water. It's not going to be muscle You're not going to gain a pound of muscle a day taking a drug. You're not I don't care What anybody tells you or what you're right on the internet. It's not going to happen So, uh water is probably the predominant factor in in anadrol weight gain Okay. Now, um, when people I heard you mentioning, you know, taking a gram and a half or you're mentioning numbers or whatever What would be like a typical Starter stack for somebody let's say it's a guy. He wants to gain muscle Um, isn't trying to go crazy, but wants to see you know, a certain amount of of results from from doing this What are the what do people starting with? They're starting they're starting with the wrong impression is what they're starting with And and I think you have to address that first Because if you made a pie chart out of everything that you're going to do To enhance performance and you're going to slice that pie up into percentage portions of what plays the biggest role in anabolism Uh and performance enhancement. You'll find that this pie cut for Drugs is probably 15 or 20 of the pie. It's not that big the Far majority of that pie is going to be divided up into training and diet And if if if your diet and your training are dialed in Then you have to determine You have to really be really realistic and honest about about that. Then you have to determine. What am I doing? What sport am I? What do I want to do? Do I want to get huge and ripped? Do I want to get huge and strong? Do I want to be be small and fast? What what's the goal and then you can start determining? You know what you want to do once you determine number one What your realistic expectation is for the drugs themselves and two what your ultimate goal is Okay, what would you say would be for the average guy? Uh, you know, I want to gain Some muscle. I've never done anabolics before I've been working out for a while. My diet's pretty good Uh, where would where where they usually start? What are the where the doses look like? How old are you? Uh, okay, somebody in their 20s or 30s. I would say Late 20s. Yeah, let's do that. Let's because that'd probably be more responsible. By the way, I do want to say I'm not recommending you do this kind of stuff But I think that this information is important because You go online and read what some people say in forums And I guarantee people are getting information that's harming their health. So that's why I wanted to talk to you Bro science at its best. Yeah There's a there's a there's a lot of misinformation out there And I don't know where it comes from. I don't know how it gets construed I think part of the problem is is that gurus and coaches like to really needlessly Complicate the matter so that they can look more astute and smart and you know, how have all the answers But it's it's it's a bunch of bullshit Um It is irresponsible to to Suggest or condone the use of steroids in adolescent people. I mean men and women So if you're in your early 20, I don't think there's a there's a Exact age pinpoint where you can say 22 and then after 22 is good and below 22 is bad But it's in that neighborhood. So you have to worry about Number one, I would worry about bone epithesis being solid so that you're not limiting, you know growth by by Messing with your growth plates. Um, I would Also want to make sure that you're in good health and and all that and you have all No family history of heart stuff. No weird blood work. No idea. All the lights are green. You're of age Okay, so you've been training your diets good and you want to start, you know, you want to gain some muscle mass I I would I would first get a blood get your blood work done Find out where your hormone levels are at to specifically testosterone free testosterone And total testosterone and and your te ratio and see what you got to see where you're what you got to work with if you're Really low testosterone and you're definitely a candidate for you know adding testosterone If your natural test level is pretty high and you don't want to go overboard and go crazy You might want to just consider You know what like I called before the an aesthetic Steroids stack what would just be a cup one or two different steroids to get you up to get your a little bit, you know Advanced working out and risk and recovery response If you want to take it a next the next level up I would definitely consider, you know Testosterone as a baseline if you're a 200 let's say you're a 200 pound guy and you want to gain, you know A few pounds of muscle I would start at Probably a thousand milligrams a week of testosterone with Three to 500 milligrams of a of a steroid on top of that and see how it goes See what happens. Okay. Um, wow, let's see that from that sounds like a pretty big Is that a pretty high number or is that what you would consider like look if you're going to get into it This is where you're going to see some of the big, you know benefits well That's a loaded question. Yeah We're dealing with a younger person Okay, so as you're older And I don't have the the actual medical studies to support this I've just speaking from personal experience that the older you are the less you need Oh, I see so a younger guy Probably because his system is used to dealing with a high hormone load that you would need a higher hormone Addition to surpass what your body's going to you know lose by shutting down your own testosterone production So you have to you have to judge if you're if you're already produced whatever you take Whatever test your test you take you're going to lower your your or eliminate your own testosterone production So you have to subtract what your body would be producing from the total equation To determine how much you're going to add Because you have to make up for that this that that test your body's not going to produce anymore so While it sounds like a lot it really isn't because you're compensating for what your body's going to stop producing And then the added steroid steroid on top like yeah, I mean it You got to look at it this way if you're going to do it you might as well do it Don't just do it and do it a little bit. It's like being a little pregnant You got to you're either you either are or you aren't so if you're gonna if you're gonna go for it go for it Don't just stick your toe in the water and leave it there. I mean you got I mean It's a big boy decision and you got to be prepared to to deal with it And if you're going to deal with it, then don't do it half-assed go for it How long does that normally last a cycle like that? Are they 8 12 16 weeks? What does it look like? You know back in the day Guys would do you know 8 weeks was the magic number if you went 10 or 12 weeks You were a renegade and and this was only pre-contest So we've definitely come a long way with respect to that You know guys taking 5 000 milligrams a week and not going off for their entire career and and you know where you've that's huge extreme so I have found that your dose duration is Tied to two things one is your blood work and two is your overall physical health So if you're taking whatever dose you're taking and you're monitoring your blood work every 10 weeks or so And your estrogen is not getting out of whack your prolactin is not getting out of whack your estradiol Is not out of whack and you're pretty much do you know your LDL is good all the other markers of health are fine Your your liver enzymes are not too far out of whack Everything that's looked everything. It looks good Then you just you can keep going and worry about bringing your own testosterone your own test production Back, you know when you're ready to get off if you want to have kids or whatever, but Latest the latest vogue is to just stay on and deal with the consequences later so With that in mind you can you can stay on a cycle like that for pretty much I you know as long as you want as long as you're Monitoring your health markers and are willing to deal with the aftermath So it's up to you now when you come off. I would assume your your natural testosterone would be in the floor What are some of the ways that you could kick that kick start that back into gear? Or is it just a waiting game? It could be both. I mean, I know You're right your test out your natural test levels are going to be in the basement when you stop I I've seen them, you know in double digits. I mean it's really really low. So You know, you've got it. You've got two choices You can wait it out and your body will Definitely respond and and kick your own production back, you know into full gear in time or Um, if if your blood work warrants it, I would look at using, you know, some form of post-cycle therapy and typically that would be a mixture of HCG human chronic gonadotropin and Clomid And that's probably a 30 day cycle You're gonna do hcg for 15 days I'll just give it to you 2000 I use a day for 15 days plus About 50 migs of clomid a day for 30 days and that should and that gets things moving faster That should raise the dead. Yes. Okay Now now when you're done with all that you do the hcg you do the the clomid Do you then okay? So that's gonna boost you clomid by I mean hcg by itself will do that And then you go off. Do you then stay that way or does it go down again and then come back up? Well, you'll you'll That cycle that course of pct should bring you back to your natural You know, okay operating range and it should just stay there unless till you till you mess with it again by doing more drugs Okay, now we we're talking about a guy right now. What about women? Women nowadays are using anabolic Way more than they ever did before What are women using and you know, maybe even before we say that do you think it's a bad idea for women to even touch? Anabolics, I mean, I know when if a woman decides she wants to Uh transition to uh a male they put her on essentially the same stuff She would take if she were trying to improve her performance Um, so let's start there should women stay clear Um, and then the ones that do use it. What are they using because I would assume they're not even getting anywhere near What you would say a guy would take You'd be surprised. Wow Well, it's a it That is That's a huge question. It depends. It depends on a lot of things. Number one, it depends on the girl What does she want to do and what is she willing to accept in order to do that because side effect wise The side effects of women is going to experience Taking male hormones is radically different than the side effects a male is going to take taking male hormones so Right there is your number is your big question is what is she willing to accept so If she's willing to accept all of it then There's one course if she's willing to accept only some of it then there's another course if she's willing to accept none of it There's still something you can do but not as much What what does that look like then for someone? Let's say somebody's like I don't want too many crazy I don't want to get a beard and I don't want Uh an adam's apple, uh, you know, I want Some something from it. What are they typically doing but they don't want the all the side effects Well, what does she want to do? Does she want to do crossfit? Does she want to do bikini? Does she want to do bodybuilding? You know, does she want to be a swimmer? What does she want to do? Let's say let's say that's a good question I'm glad you're saying this. Yeah, this is good because I think a lot of people don't realize that there's a difference When you know based on what the athlete or the person is looking for it's not a one size fits all But because we're speaking to a large audience, uh, I would say bikini. That's probably what more women more mainstream fitness fanatic Women would identify with you know, less so, you know, bodybuilding or those other sports A rich boyfriend plastic surgery and cocaine There you go Wow Okay That I mean that there's 10 through 26 in the in your typical bikini show Um, there's you know, it's just look bikini. That's an interesting topic bikini because I'm I'm a dinosaur. I'm one of the old school guys that cringed when bikini came along You know, I felt that the that the At that the athlete aspect of the sport was sort of attacked because You could go to your basic pool bar and a beer tub girl could be a card carrying pro athlete member of the ifbb You know, and that that's kind of a smack in the face to the guy who's got a You know almost died to get the same thing. So, you know, bikini is is one of those things where The girl if she's going to really be a hardcore Balls to the wall athlete really doesn't need anything in terms of performance enhancing drugs. She just needs to work hard And that's probably true for 90 percent of the bikini girls out there The other 10 percent are probably hormonally challenged have issues physically challenged and whatnot and and really need a lot of help You know getting in shape and for them. Yeah, there's drugs they can use but I'm of the belief that Anything beyond clen buter all and and and maybe some gh That that's about the extent that I'm going to look at A bikini girl doing let's talk about that. So clen buter all For my knowledge was an asthma drug. Uh, it was a drug originally given to people to Open up their their, you know bronchial passageways and then we were giving it apparently to Cattle to to bulk them up a little bit and that's when athletes got their hands on it What does what is clen? Is am I right? Is that what it is and what does it do? Is it a steroid? No, it's not a steroid clen buter all is a bronchial dilator Uh, basically the effect that you're you're getting from it is tremor So if you take clen you just find out your hands are Shaken and That tremor is systemic and that tremor basically burns more calories than if you weren't tremoring So by virtue of the extra calorie burning you're getting added, you know, a lipolytic effect So the the benefit to clen buter all is fat burning the the The proposed anabolic effect is absolutely minimal Not worth taking for the anabolic effect Uh, it's really typically used, you know, for getting lean What about albuterol albuterol is a drug that I was prescribed as a kid and I took it through inhaler But I know you could probably take it through tablet as well. It sounds like kim clen buterol. Is it the is it similar? Similar. Yeah, okay in terms of bronchial dilation. I don't think the tremor is is pronounced In in albuterol, but it's it's the same same idea You are it's a drug designed to open your airways so you can breathe. That's weird. I never heard anybody explain it that way So basically you're taking a drug That's making you shake a little bit and then that extra shaking is making you burn Extra calories are taking it for its side effect Wow, that's what duchan discovered. He read about the drug this drug side effect was Weight loss due to tremor and this is great for bodybuilding. So You know, that's what that's one of the hundreds of things you're doing today that this guy discovered that you No idea he did. Okay. You mentioned growth hormone another hormone that athletes have been using for a little while How how does growth hormone work in in comparison to? anabolic steroids for performance. Are they in the same category or totally different well The growth hormone is not a sex hormone. So it completely falls out of the anabolic hormone list that people are used to It's not a steroid Growth hormone is basically a To put it in the simplest language possible is basically a hormone that stimulates other things to happen tissue repair growth and growth Um burning body fat that there's a host of effects collagen enhancement There's a lot of benefits to to growth hormone Just in the sense that it's a hormone your body uses for growth and repair throughout the course of your life Especially when you're little And gradually abscess you get older to replace that or add more to it brings back sort of the Youth generating effects which it's predominantly used for there is a secondary anabolic I wouldn't call it anabolic effect. I'd call it more like a muscle preserving Effect that you can you can experience muscle preservation under restricted calories You won't lose as much muscle on growth hormone as you would without it on a on a significantly calorie restricted diet And then there's the fat burning component of it Which makes it very attractive on top of all of that. There's almost no side effects to it There's definitely no masculinizing side effects to it. So it's preferred by women for that You add fat burning and no male side effects women are lining up for it So there's there's definitely that aspect of it There is there are side effects from don't get me wrong. They're just not negative socially Repugnant side effects like you get with you know male drugs. So It's it's definitely a A drug utilized by women more for that respect And there's also other steroids that are extremely mild that that women will use like, you know, anivar Prima ballon To some degree windstraw. I don't like windstraw and women But prima ballon is my favorite to use on women Because it's just almost no side effects and you get a lot of good effect from it. Interesting So growth hormone feet. What does it feel like then because you know, I kind of get an idea now What it what it feels like to be on steroids What does it feel like to be on growth hormone? Is it more subtle? That's what I've read much more subtle much much more subtle And that and that of course is dose dependent many many of this of the of the of the published data Are of a dosage between two and three I use a day for You know an average adult which is very low compared to athletes who are taken four or five six I use a day So the feel you're going to get on a higher level is different than the feel you're going to get at a lower level The lower level feel is almost not perceptible. It is over time Perceptible. I had a great case of a woman. I worked with she was a neighbor of mine in mexico um She lived in arizona and our paths wouldn't cross as often because of our travel schedules And I had she had asked me about growth hormone. I suggested that she use it How much she was in her fifth early fifties? I hadn't seen her in about six months until our paths crossed again And when I did it was like did you have a facelift? Did you have a plastic surgery? Well, what did you do? She goes? I've only been doing what you told me to do And and the difference was absolutely Staggering what it what it did for this woman in terms of her, you know The youth elements of her face the collagen replacement of the health of her hair The the diminution of wrinkles the the clarity of her eyes. She was a whole different person, you know by virtue of You know a two i use a day of monday through friday of hgh Wow, that's interesting. All right, so these days, uh drugs have gotten or I should say performance enhancing drugs Have gotten more interesting. Um, I you know, I was talking about this on my podcast on on mine pump The other day where I was doing some research for interview on SARMs selective androgen receptor modulators and Go back on facebook and i'm getting all these ads on facebook For SARMs like mainstream ads you can buy them on the internet get a mail to so first off What are SARMs and second? Why am I able to buy them if I want on the internet and then third what do they do? selective androgen modulator receptor modulator it's it's basically Excuse me. It's it's a it's a drug I guess in the simplest terms. It's a drug that's specifically targets Something that you want to do and I guess the most common one that people are familiar with is novadex Novadex is a saurin novadex specifically looks for estrogen and blunts it so That's that's what you're that that's the objective so selective selective receptor modulators are are Kind of like this new breed of drug that are that are that are site specific androgen receptor specific so you have a receptor site for this drug you get this Drug attaching itself to it and no other so you have no other infiltration no other side effects No other nothing other than the specific receptor you're trying to modulate okay, and and So that's what the the problem with them is they are experimental drugs and because they're experimental drugs and this falls under the exact same category as pro hormones and peptides is that There's no Human use for them. They're no approved human use for them. They're research chemicals. So when you go buy them online Unless your address is a laboratory somewhere you're breaking the law so it that's they're they're not as Legal as people think they are and and as as the law as the steroid law is written It's anything with the steroid like effect So if you're promoting this drug as steroid like or eliciting steroid like effects you're breaking the law so They sound like a good thing on the surface because they can people think they're you're not going to go to prison using them but That's not entirely true Okay, so novadex is a SIRM right estrogen modulator sarms go to the androgen So sarms essentially the way they advertise them is like You know you get you know you build muscle right because the androgen receptor is what testosterone or steroids attach you You build muscle get stronger burn body fat, but you don't get the same side effects You would get from steroids. What's your experience with sarms? Is that true or is it all just you know hype? I I look at all of the alternative preparations with the jaundice eye because I asked predominantly first why On this side, you have drugs that we know steroids work. They work great. Why do you want? An alternative Do you want to be alternative because it's better? Well, that's not true because they're not better Or do you want the alternative because so you can say You're a natural athlete or you don't use steroids. You use this Other thing that's not a steroid. So you have a moral clarity in what you're doing so that you don't think you're doing anything bad. So I always defer to the steroid because typically we know more about them. The effect is Expectable we know what we're going to get from using them within a range And we know what the downside is We don't really know enough about sarms. We don't know enough about Peptides and pro hormones to make any of those assertions. So right off the bat the Lack of study we have regarding them turns me off to them secondarily I haven't heard of any of them being as good or better than the real hormone. So They're not something I'm holding too much and they're not to not to mention the Number of people who are failing drug tests long after they stop using these things They're getting popped on drug tests. So On every way I look at it. I stay away from them. Yeah, you're uh, I mean To what you were saying testosterone. We've been studying forever. It's a relatively non-toxic Hormone. I mean I could inject A massive amount and I'm not going to die of toxicity. We don't know Much about these sarms and I'm sure they're they're probably toxic at much lower doses than Testosterone you mentioned drug tests. Okay, this is where I have a lot of questions because Athletes at high levels are using anabolic steroids and hormones and you know band substances They're not supposed to use these organizations test them And look at Lance Armstrong. He won so many races did so well Past every drug test never failed a drug test The only reason why we know he used performance enhancing drugs is because his friends Ratted him out afterwards. How the hell are our athletes passing drug tests That's the $10,000 a month question You're not going to give up any secrets john You know Back in the day. I probably would have but right now Um I would say the majority of my business is athletes who are at the pro football level Olympic track and field level Olympic cycling level and um crossfit elite crossfit level all of which are drug tested Significantly drug tested and the drug testing has gotten More and more and more challenging as time has gone on and they've been availed to what the loopholes are So now that beating drug tests is relatively Or exponentially much more difficult than it used to be And the tools we have to work with are fewer and harder to come by And expensive to to arrange that no I I'm not letting those secrets out Significant significant contributions to my bank account Okay, john. Well, okay. How about this? Uh, uh, let's go back To when drug tests were predictable. We knew we were going to get tested at this time Uh, they're testing me for anabolic and whatever How did athletes beat them back then? Were they just using Anabolics that were like testosterone, which is identical to your own testosterone then dropping the dose before the test What were they doing in those days? All right, I'll I'll let I'll let some of the cats out of the bag. Just just that's such a Oh That's a that's a pot of stew right there. What what you gotta First of all, you gotta know a lot about yourself before you can Determine Where and where you where and what you have to do where you have to go and what you have to do To beat a drug test Okay, so right up the bat the drug test is cleaved into two pieces One is going to be testosterone and the rest of it's going to be everything else because testosterone cannot In a typical metabolite drug test because we'll all fail it because we're men and we have testosterone So drug tests only determine yes or no It's it's either the drug is there or the drug is not there So we're all going to fail the to testosterone drug test So what they do is they test for a ratio of epitestosterone to testosterone And that the range is one to one to one to four The testosterone epitestosterone respected. So if you take test Your test level is going to go up your epitestosterone is going to go up Commensurate to that level to maintain the ratio and if you fail the drug test You're failing the drug test because your te ratio is above 4 to 1 Now what the lab does is if you have a drug test that's over 4 to 1 You have to get that drug test confirmed by A um, you know complicated test That's going to determine whether or not the added test dot the excess testosterone source Is animal or plant if it's an animal source The source is animal. That's just your te Ratio that's from you and you're going to pass the test if it's from a plant source You're going to fail the test however It is up to the federation The the the drug testing lab does not notify The athlete it notifies the federation if test the federation athlete four seven eight six two one three failed It has a te ratio above four to one that we recommend the the the Atomic level test It is then up to the federation whether they want to shell out the money to Confirm that so right there that's pass or fail phase number one Are you the superstar athlete that would give the blackest eye possible to your sponsors the sport the federation if you fail your drug test If so we're sweeping that shit under the rug So we're not going to we're not going to bother with the secondary test Okay, if you're some poor schmuck in the middle of the field Yeah, we're going to make an example out of you and we're going to spring for the 1500 bucks Get you to fail the test and kick you out Did you ever notice that it wasn't dant's armstrong that was failing the drug test? It was it was floyd landis. It was the guy's below it was guys below him that were failing the drug test It wasn't him Okay, so they there's the sacrificial lambs and there's the and there's the preservation property You're going to preserve this the sport is going to seek to preserve its superstars and not hurt them unless some Mashination of issues occurs in the case of berry bonds in the case of lance armstrong It was usually because the guy was a monumental dick People hated him and were trying to do everything they could to undermine I guarantee you if berry bonds was a nice guy if Lance Lance was a nice guy. They'd still be and they'd still have their their their accolades So what you're saying is it's in these professional organizations that generate money have viewers do the whole thing It's in their best interest to not Kick out their their biggest draws if you will Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me that I always I always thought that Yeah, I mean it's it's You you rare. I mean saw I mean it's it's been called to the mat so many times that now they're starting to do it But prior to I think last year you never saw the top string guys Getting fell on their drug tests or to we assume that they're all clean Hell no You know the fact and that's that's what lance armstrong personified The most The clearest message that you could ever derive from this whole thing is just because you fail the drug test I mean past the drug test doesn't mean you're clean Wow, that's that's pretty crazy. So back to berry bonds. I noticed something I noticed about him Obviously, he got a lot bigger As his career went on but so did his head. I don't mean figuratively. I mean literally his head It grew What was that from was that from growth hormone testosterone like why would why would just skull grow? Well, I don't know if it is skull per se You know one of the side effects of testosterone or or some steroids is water retention And sometimes you get water retention in the face And it makes your head look bigger. So yeah, that could be a possibility growth hormone can make your jaw grow your Your brow bow the growth and then those typical agromeglia side effects that you know The giant ism, you know that people talk about or are the side of it, but your whole head does not grow. No, okay You know, john, I'm thinking back to You know, I used to run a gym down in uh in southern california and I in in the gym I was running It was close to the border between uh, mexico and the us and so I would have trainers and stuff They'd go down all the time pick up, you know anabolic come back or whatever And I remember there was such a huge difference between There's one guy, uh, and he was on Way more anabolic than almost anybody else That worked for me and he looked like a regular dude in the gym. He worked out hard He had a good diet He and then there was another guy remember this was another guy who who took the lowest dose and looked like he exploded Are there a genetic component to how you respond to these drugs as well? Absolutely, absolutely There and again Another pot of stew there's all kinds of things that are involved with that There's everything from myostatin negativity to receptor propensity. So It depends on the person. Yeah, but yeah, it is definitely There are a certain amalgam of physical characteristics that line up in such a way that it doesn't matter What drug you're going to do? You're just You're just not going to get the benefit out of it But then there's other guys like you just said that you can just breathe If you're taking tests and breathe on them, they grow So, you know, it does it does depend on your on your makeup. Now, is there Are there permanent effects, uh, or results from it? So let's say you do steroids and your growth hormone whatever and you do these for On and off for a year or two years three years four years and then you decide, hey, look, I don't want to do this anymore I'm going to go off You do the proper Post-cycle therapy hormones come back to normal. Do you lose all those gains or do you keep a certain percentage of them? It comes down it comes down to what you do to preserve it. Um I think one thing people have to understand is that your arms grow Not because you want them to and they look cool your arms grow as well any other muscle in your body is going to grow It's a sir. It isn't is a direct Response to The body's survival mechanism It's a it's a it's a stress response The reason muscle grows is because you've subjected it to a stress that it can't handle So if you can convince your body by virtue of your workout intensity that I need this muscle And you feed it you got the right nutrients on board. It's going to keep you Convinced your body that I don't need this much. I only need 20 percent of this Then and if you don't feed your body you will lose it So it just depends on what you put your body through recovery And and nutrition are the key elements to keeping muscle not drugs Okay, so along those lines that leads me to the next question Because these days we're starting to see A lot of controversy or should I say discussion around transgender athletes entering Into sports and the argument for Because the argument against is saying hey look it's on it's not fair. You're a biological man. You transition to a woman It's not fair. It's not fair competition for you to compete against biological women. The argument pro is If they transition and they've been and we've if they've brought their testosterone levels down And they're on hormone blockers and they've been that way now for a year They've erased whatever advantage that they have so now you've worked male, you know men women You've done, you know, they're they're anabolic hormone cycles. You've been in that whole world You know how hormones affect the body both temporarily and permanently So I think you're one of the best people to ask this question Is this a fair playing field is a level playing field or is this okay once they bring the hormone levels down And are their new gender for you know, however, however long the organization says they're supposed to be It's a bunch of horseshit and and I'm probably gonna take a lot of flak from from this for being insensitive and xenophobic or homophobic or whatever you want to call me, but There's only two genders. There is male and there is female And what separates those two is not psychological. It is biological. It's physical and it happens in the womb And it happens in the womb to the degree That it is Undeniable, so The fact of the matter is as little as baby zygots, we all start off as female There is at some point during the gestation a hormone cascade That Effectively will turn that zygote male or keep it female if there's any Contradiction in that it's going to revert back to female so That's what the body does now if you think that you're a male trapped in that female body that's not biological that is psychological and You can have all kinds of issues with that and seek to help professional help and deal with it however you want But you are not going to use it as a crutch to get into a sport that is belongs to the opposite sex And what happened what I the reason I emphasize It is because men and women are opposite. So just because you stop taking testosterone Doesn't undo the testosterone the what the testosterone did since you were the little baby zygote and Transition from female to male in the womb. So fast forward now all that to today You're still bigger stronger and more physically superior than a zygote who stayed female and is now a female. So The drugs have already been done. You're not going to undo mother nature You're not going to undo what made you female in the womb I mean, what made you male in the womb? That's not going to ever happen So if you're a male and you take all the female hormones you want It doesn't undo the male Structures that you were born with and you will be forever Superior physically to your count female counterpart. Okay, so It's it's ridiculous now here now to be fair to play the opposite side If I got my testosterone levels down to what a woman's testosterone levels are If I took hormone blockers if I transitioned I would definitely notice a drop in strength and performance But what you're saying is there's still a permanent amount that is going to be there no matter what Correct. Okay. So unfair. You think it's not fair and uh, this they this this shouldn't be even an argument is what you're saying Unfair it's going to destroy women's sports completely women's sports are going to be dominated by also ran males who happen to identify with being female at the moment And it's it's it's absolutely ludicrous and I don't know I don't even understand How an actual serious athlete can stomach the fact that they sucked so bad as a male That they had to be they had to compete as a girl in order to win I don't even know how you sleep with yourself at night Knowing that you're that bad that you had to actually Compete against girls to get the accolades you think you deserve. Well, here. Let me ask you this then Okay, because again playing the opposite side, uh, you know They I would say I don't think people are are doing things to their body That could cause permanent serious harm Just to win Competitions now you're you've worked with lots of high-level athletes Uh, is that a true statement or do athletes do crazy things to themselves all the time to try to win? No, no, no, no, no. First of all, first of all, there are no There are no men who are taking female hormones so that they can i'm sorry the opposite There are no women taking male hormones so that they can compete in men's sports If there are it's extremely rare the project the predominant Action that's happening here is shitty male athletes Got Masquerading as women even if they take female hormones to try to compete against women You're never ever going to undo the the the physical advantage that a male has over a female And you're never going to create an advantage in a female over a male by taking By doing the opposite. So it's completely one sided There's no stampede of women to try to compete in men's sports the stampede is men Trying to compete in women's sports. Yeah, well, okay, so uh A lot of what you're saying I would say I agree with just being in the fitness space. I've known Very high level competitive women who take High doses of anabolic steroids are definitely very strong Can perform at incredible levels stronger than the average male But they don't come close to uh, you know, even what natural top level male athletes Can come to I've never seen for example A woman, uh come anywhere close to what the top men even in the same weight class Uh could come to no matter what drugs she takes. So, um, you know in that case I I could I could definitely see what you're talking about. So do you think this is gonna Keep going in that direction or do you think at some point? People are gonna say, okay, that's enough. This is What do you think's gonna take before people say or or agree with you in mass where they say, okay? This is just not fair The snowflakes have to stop whining You know this idea that everybody can win that everybody participates to get a trophy that if you can't compete and win As a man then do it as a woman All of this idiocy has to change You you there there is the object of sport is to determine who's the best At what they do not to determine how many people can play and have fun That's the problem Sports are serious business as evinced by the multimillion dollar contracts at stake at the upper levels So, you know if you want to if you want to look at sports seriously You have to look at it seriously and to to to come away with the idea that um To to some degree that it's that it's at all serious That a woman that a man wants to compete as a woman Then then the etiology is flawed once you got to you got to fix the Ideology first once you fix that then the rest falls into place, but There's a tremendous movement right now in america to really screw things up and and it's it's it's Attacking it's attacking masculinity. It's attacking cultural norms. It's attacking the base etiologies That that are very basic like which bathroom do you use? I mean and these things are all being confounded by lunatics So you have to fix that first All right. Well, I'm going to change gears with you a little bit. Um, uh It seems like laws are loosening up on lots of controlled substances. I know marijuana Uh legalized in many states uh medically or even recreationally. I see in some states now Psychedelics are starting to become decriminalized. It looks like we're moving in that direction. Do you think? Hormones like testosterone will start to become less Uh less regulated or not it's not scheduled like they currently are maybe along the lines of like Female hormones. I know how easy it is to get for example estrogen or progesterone versus Testostero. Do you see it moving in that direction? The the laws are kind of like already a little bit loosened as as far as I'm concerned or maybe not actually the laws themselves, but the the the chasing of them the pursuing of justice with respect to those laws um You know it the the big steroid busts the news of them are few and far between the um the underground in america is extremely saturated The raw materials from china pakistan india are coming in and people are Manufacturing their own so there's there's a tremendous availability of steroids on the black market as far as The legitimate market goes I would say that it's easier Today to find a doctor willing to prescribe testosterone replacement than it was a few years ago It's easier for for patients to seek medical advice and get Not only their their hormone levels checked But also talk to doctors and have conversations about the use of growth hormone and testosterone for anti aging for for um, you know recuperative effects Adjunct treatments off-label treatments to others certain diseases and whatnot. So they're they're being looked at There's less media hysteria now. You're not back in the 90s in the early 2000s. You had You know, you had these crazy people talking about Kids committing suicide and the dangers of steroids and every single solitary A celebrity that had some kind of wild fit was you know diagnosed with roid rage in the media and all of that stuff is gone They're they're focused on other things now and the and even the dea isn't looking at at steroids like they used to so I think from the law Enforcement end of it. It's not as it's not perceived as seriously as it once was On the on the medical community level. I think it's being looked at less nefariously And there are more and more and more doctors who are willing to you know prescribe and monitor and manage uh hormone hormone cycles Yeah, I I part of it I'm assuming has to do with the fact that men's testosterone levels have been declining for the last, you know, I don't know five decades and so TRT is going to be I mean It's just growing because men are not having testosterone like they used to and a lot of theories as to why some Some theories are have to do with the chemicals were exposed to zeno estrogens others are saying It's because we're not uh active like we used to but nonetheless it's becoming In my experience more medically acceptable more mainstream If you will um, you know one thing I love about you john is that And this is why I used to love reading your stuff is you don't hold anything back. You're very very Straightforward, you know where you stand on everything. You don't you just answer very honestly I know you're in the new media space. You've been now for a little while, right? You started a podcast. How's that going? How's how is it compared to when you were doing magazines and stuff? It's is it a totally different world or the same? Uh, it's the same just different technology Oh, it's I think it's a completely different world Um, and I'm not and admittedly I am not completely adapted to it, you know Um, yeah, I do as podcasts that I I thought would be really popular Um, you know with rich gispari who is a really popular guy in in the bodybuilding world and You know, we've done 35 shows I think so far nothing on your level, but I I don't know if I'm doing as good as I should be We're getting probably between a thousand and 1500 downloads a show between the platforms I I don't know if that's any good or not. I was anticipating. We'd be doing way better than that by now um, I think it's a matter of I think what I find Confounding today that I'm not used to is Is the not only the social media End of it as you well know, I am not big on social media I probably should be you say I remember you telling me saying it took a lot Quite an effort to find me And I thought that was nuts because I'm everywhere, but um, yeah, yeah I mean that that's part of my problem is I really don't know how to Get the eyeballs generated to come look at my stuff But we've I think you know the people who do listen to our podcast are really happy with it They think it's great. We've had great guests We've had I think four or five mr. Olympia's on already plus, you know a bunch of who's who in the industry and Um, I think it's time to have some of those guests back on and and since we've gone to video now We were just only audio now. We're I think out of 10 or 12 shows into audio and video so I'm hoping it'll grow. Maybe people listen into this will want to Slide over to dragon slayer media and check out fitness fame and fortune, you know He might want to do that. Yeah. Well, I'll make sure I I point to it in the intro and again I mean just to my audience if you want Like you want the no holds barred nitty-gritty About everything, uh, you know, it has to do with fitness. Um, you're the guy. I really don't trust Anybody else, um as much as I do you I know how long you've been around. I've read like I said I've read all your stuff You were talking about the stuff way before You know anybody else and it's funny because uh, what I know about all this all these things is a lot of it comes from you And dan dan du cane do chain what you had earlier mentioned It's funny because I'll I'll read stuff now And people will talk like they like oh, this is groundbreaking. We just you know, this is what you know Whatever like I'm I read I read that back in 1995 or whatever, you know back in the day I find it interesting that people, you know, especially younger guys today who are getting into bodybuilding Know so little about the history of bodybuilding and and you know Who's responsible for what they're actually doing and why I think the whole concept of why is is really Not addressed like why are you doing what you're doing? And if you ask 10 people in the gym, they have no clue They may think they do but they really don't Well, john, it's been a pleasure man. It's always a blast Talking to you. I really appreciate you I appreciate you and I love doing your show and if you ever need me again, I'm Never hesitate to ask. I'm always happy to do it beautiful and uh, and I'll I'll be happy to come on your show too So anytime I want it. Can you do it tomorrow? Yeah? All right, I'll have my assistant reach out serious. We'll get it. We'll get it I definitely want to have you but you're absolutely one of the guests I want to have back on and and Because we sort of did our first show with you guys and sort of you interviewed us And and I would like to flip the tables on you. All right, perfect. All right. Thanks again, john. I appreciate it Anytime. Thank you Oh, man So, uh, that was a fiery interview with john. That was a fun one to listen to yeah So so I have a question actually I have a question for you adam because um, I mean I have some knowledge You know just because I read a lot about anabolic and how much people use and this kind of stuff one thing that john said that I was surprising. I wouldn't have guessed that he would have said this is when I asked him a starting cycle Dose for a guy 200 pounds late 20s early 30s He said a gram of testosterone plus like 300 or 400 milligrams of other steroids That sounds like a lot to me and you were in the pro world. Is that like what's your opinion on that? That blew me away. Um, I found that very interesting And it actually helped me connect the dots on some things that I've experienced personally So, uh, I've talked about that I was I was one of those young kids in his early 20s that you know experimented with steroids early on And I took a really big cycle, you know, the upwards of a gram or so when we when I first First did the very first one and I told you that I didn't get the greatest results and I didn't get the greatest results because of what he said about the pie chart You know the other 80 percent of my my pie chart wasn't wasn't in line You know Sure, I I took the protein shakes and ate the bars and I was lifting weight training hard But my understanding of like programming and progressive overload My my true understanding of nutrition and the importance of consistency with it Uh, just wasn't there yet. And so my results were were really terrible Now I I felt strong and I felt different like I definitely could feel the Obviously the anabox taking that much But didn't get the results I ever wanted And later on in my in in in my lifting career, you know, fast forward to competing I was on really low doses, but I was in my 30s So it makes sense to me now Why I felt like so good on such a low dose because I had probably already Well, I know I did because I did blood work in my late 20s And I already had testosterone in the floor from the experimenting that I was doing in my early 20s And so just the right amount combined with You know my knowledge of programming and diet in my 30s Really allowed me to you know scale to you know becoming a IFBB pro And so that now it makes a lot of sense to me where before I was like, man, this is crazy that My body is just respond and I I just attributed it all to oh It must be because I was that off on diet and exercise But now it makes sense to me that maybe I had a much better testosterone levels in before and then Even though I was on a much higher dose Comparatively to where I was you know competing wise Maybe the way my body responded was similar. You know, so it's so a study had just has just come out that talked about The they explored the differences in how people's bodies respond to weight training and then they were testing testosterone levels And what they found was the testosterone levels in the in the guys that did well versus the guys that didn't do well Didn't make that big of a difference. What made the big difference was the androgen receptor density, right? So like this guy over here his testosterone is 650 And then he's but he's responding way better to the workouts and this guy who's testosterone is 800 But the difference is this guy's got way more receptors Uh than the other guy. Well, this is why I was so glad that you brought up the genetic component because That was my experience too. I've met um, I've met plenty of guys that have done Much bigger doses than me that saw like no results. I remember I I helped out some I coached some guys That they came to me and the first thing that I would ask them is like, you know, or what are you taking? And they would they would list off these cycles that I was just like, holy shit And then I and you know, no offense to the guy, but he did not look like I mean He barely looked like he was a lifter much less an experienced competitor who was on that big of a cycle And so it explains a lot to me what what what a major factor that is Yeah, I think it's good for for especially young men to hear that because it dispels that myth that all of a sudden you're taking this You know, you're taking anabolic steroids and then it's going to produce this sort of superhero body As a result of that, you know, maybe some, you know, whatever they're doing workout wise Just adding that into the mix is going to like produce this like superhero version of them Yeah, and also here's another thing studies also consistently show that as men age Okay, if they're healthy testosterone levels will decline a little bit But guess what also changes as they get older their androgen receptors get denser They get more as they get older So this remember that he made the comment that as the older a guy gets the less he needs to get the same results Probably due to the fact that he's got more androgen receptors or more better density as he gets older versus when he was younger So I thought it was very interesting when I said that I thought about those studies Does that align with like muscle maturity and muscle memory? Probably yeah, I was gonna say because you gotta you gotta factor that in I don't know if that's all part of the same category or not But you take somebody who's been lifting for I mean, I know this too. I mean, this is Very apparent to me after I had done cycles Um, even when I came off and I had the some of the lowest testosterone levels in my life in my 30s Um, I still was bigger and had more muscle than I was in my, you know Early 20s taking tons of testosterone. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah now now Of course the the elephant in the room is when he went off on the the the debate on Transgender athletes now he's john is just if you don't know john, he's very just he'll just he'll just speak What he feels he definitely gave us his opinion. He does and I tell you what the part that I agree with Uh wholeheartedly is that there is a permanent advantage and I mean look And anybody who's in fitness who's worked with people or worked in gyms for a long time There's a permanent there really is a permanent advantage. I can I tell you what? Yeah, but the part that I I disagree with is that I don't I think we We were discussing moment or you were discussing momentarily there a very very small percentage Currently now that could change but a very small percentage of people I don't think most people that you know deal with this psychological issue of feeling like they are in the The opposite sexist body Go out and decide i'm going to go through this crazy transformation Hormonal surgeries all this stuff Just so I can go win a trophy. I don't I don't think that's not only I I don't I think that's not as yeah It's not as prevalent as the news and media would you know like show that like we think it's happening everywhere Just because it's a popular topic But I do I mean it's it's It's a bit harsh, you know in the way that he presented it But also it's things to consider in terms of like our biological differences And to just sort of glaze over that to try and make sure everybody feels good about it I think it needs to be considered when sports is just about metrics and it's about You know actual performance and and and there was a reason why they differentiated that between the two sexes Initially and we're trying to stray away from that so it's something to consider when bringing into the discussion No, I I agree. I agree with your point and I remember when we had The two transgender's on and we had the debate And that was the point that I made was that because they remember when they did that That study or that survey on all the olympic athletes on if if they could be guaranteed a gold medal But then die in five years but die in five years at like I think it's a common mentality Most of them. Yeah a great percentage greater than 50% of them said that yes I would I would accept dying in five years just to have a gold and most people in the olympics are in their 20s So you're you're telling me that If if that mentality is in that sport to get a gold medal that it's not eventually going to attract some people That will go wait a second like here's my way to get it And so I do think that even if it's a small minority today, I think it could grow into something Yeah, I think you know you're I agree I think now it's what's happening now is people who are transgender Going through the process and then competing. I don't think it's people saying agree. I want to win I can't win in this category. So now I'm going to transition. I think I think we're seeing the unintended consequences I think that I think that the idea of obviously allowing someone to change their sex. They're an adult They should be allowed to do that if they want to do that No one thought this far along that. Oh, what happens when they start competing? It was it wasn't about that Right, it's it's getting to a point where yeah, there needs to be more for their discussion around it Just in terms of like, you know fair play and I really do feel there needs to be a lot more female voices That speak up in terms of like how they'll receive it. Oh, there will be. Oh, there is that's where that's where they'll come Right, so because they're losing there's there's a lot of girls losing scholarships and opportunities Right, it's title nine. Right. Is that what it is? I think so I mean you'll see when that when that starts getting affected, right when you start seeing You know high school athletes female high school athletes losing scholarships And so and it won't be after one or two. It's when you'll start to see that happen. That's when you'll it'll And I was definitely curious when uh, when you brought up all the different testing for professional sports and like he started to kind of like Be a little bit reserved in terms of the techniques of how to like System and this and I was like I was like well, that sounds like anticipating some real Main source of his income right now. That's what he does You know, it makes sense that he doesn't want to give away his secrets because otherwise his value goes down Oh, of course I just I was so curious because uh, I did watch that documentary Icarus and they did kind of go through a lot of the Ways that they were able to go around some of the tests and what the methods that you use in russia And all that is public knowledge So to to different to see how you know any of those methods would would be You know in our market would be well that would different would be Icarus only went over blood doping though It wasn't that all they that's the only thing they come testosterone They did yeah, I don't I watched that documentary. I don't remember you know what though. Here's the deal Okay, no one is going to give away how they're getting away with it now They might give away how they got away with it before right, but but the testing is constantly chasing the new methods It's not the other way around it's cat and mouse It's cat and mouse and so what they did five or ten years ago You'll you could figure out what they're doing now. You got to pay somebody like I do love though That you guys you guys went that direction talk about because this has been a long debate for like my buddy I mean we've been debating this since we were like in high school Right, obviously I before I was in this field and I think I had more Knowledge and like firsthand I used to debate this I used to tell my friends that you know these pro athletes They're all on steroids, you know, I would say most of them 80 90 percent of I don't care If you're a pitcher who you are like, you know sport there because everybody always thinks steroids and think big muscular Right, like I just think that you're gonna get this you're like, oh, he's not massive. Oh, no look at him He doesn't look like exactly you can't tell so they assume that they're not but it's like no at that level Millions of dollars are being made if you think every enhancement matters Yeah, if you don't think that a majority of these guys I I find it more rare when we have friends like Brendan or my buddy Frampton who is both these guys were all natural athletes And unfortunately they weren't huge names in the sport because they weren't willing to take The next step which all their peers if you're making millions of dollars based off of your physical performance And you have doctors ready and willing To prescribe you and monitor you and you have an organization that is ready and willing to Turn shield you to shield you Uh That's that's the name of the game. It's part of the business. It's part of the whole thing It's like it's like being in movie like Hollywood same thing, you know You're an actor or an actress and you're getting ready for you know, they're making you know Avengers again and they're gonna have Justin, you know be one of the one of the guys or whatever natural pretty sure They would say all right, Justin. You got uh six months or a year to get ready for this role Here's a doctor. They're gonna do your blood work. They're gonna. I'm taking all the stuff Yeah, they're gonna optimize all your stuff. Don't worry. We have it all covered. Here's your nutritionist They're gonna make your meals for you. Here's your gym. You got a trainer. You just gotta do the work Just do the work. Oh and by the way, we're gonna pay you, you know, $5 million or $10 million to do it I mean and you have doctors monitoring you so all the potential scary stuff is taken care of You're probably gonna do it I wonder how much of that is actually like the the movie industry pushing it or allowing or it's just more The other thing when they just turn to blind eye and it's more of the actor who's like, hey I'm gonna have to have my shirt off 90 of the time. We need you jack. I want to look three months I look amazing. I bet you it's it's the it's you think so Yes, and I bet you I don't think so. I think the big actors have their own system So the big actors go in and they don't they're like, oh, yeah, I got it six months. Don't worry. They already got their doctor They got that or whatever. I got that taken care of but I bet you it's almost like, you know The the the person who manages the talent is like and they probably position it this way. They probably say, hey Look, here's a deal. You're gonna get in shape for this role Um, here's a doctor we work with they're going to test your hormones and they're gonna optimize your hormones and your health So that you can get in the best shape possible. That's all and it's all perfectly legal and the doctors Let me put it this way if I did your blood work at them and I'm a doctor I could literally say well, these are what we're gonna do. We're gonna push your testosterone to this upper limit Your growth hormone we could push it up to this limit within the parameter They're not on bodybuilding doses, but I guarantee they got oh, yeah I just find it hilarious. So like immediately after all that they get immense health spread like every single time I think it just meant what we what did you do? Like what supplements were you on and like what kind of crazy crossfit workout? Did you do this whole time? Well, you got you got the you got your workouts taken care of your nutrition taken care of And you're in your your drugs, you know, of course, you know, you're gonna see crazy stuff like that And they're all I mean and actors tend to be genetically this is all facade somewhat gifted. Anyway, you know I do want to say this I want to backtrack a little bit and say this about the transgender athlete debate I just want to be very clear I believe individuals should be able to do whatever they want to their body And I think everybody should be treated with respect and care as an individual the question is And this is the debate and what I hate about this debate is it gets silenced because if you're on the opposite side Then you're silenced as some kind of a bigot, which is silly It's a stupid way to shut someone down when they're having a legitimate conversation and the conversation is Is there a is there a is there an advantage an unfair advantage? From a man transitioning to a woman Is there a permanent physical advantage that they have that can't get reversed with hormones? And I will say their absolute 100 percent there is and I tell you look I tell you what I could take my sister and I could put her on all the drugs in the world And I could have her testosterone levels measured 10 times higher than justins She ain't gonna beat him in the bench press. She's not no no matter what she'll never bench press 400 pounds Because no matter how many steroids I give her there is no Nothing you can do that'll erase Some of those permanent changes and I do think this debate especially in combat sports boy when you see MMA It's like, oh my gosh, someone's gonna get hurt, you know if we don't to each their own and in individuals I'm all for individuals like choosing their own destiny and go in the direction they they want I just you know like the the thing that I always like both Loved and and admired about sports is it's it's It's devoid of of all the different cultural aspects. It's it's it's there. It's the metrics. It's Are you faster or you know? Can you lift more like it it was the last place where I felt like a lot of politics didn't enter But now it's it's definitely intertwined with a lot of what we see in culture now. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that was a good time Yeah, yeah great episode man. All right, so check this out mind pump is recorded on video as well as audio So you can come find us on youtube mind pump podcast You can also find all of us on instagram you can find justin at mind pump justin me at mind pump salin adam at mind pump adam I'm working inward first of all like i'm thinking of all the things that I haven't been addressing I'm not worried about the strength training the aesthetics It's not that at all and i'm already kind of thinking about When I come out of this the things that I'll need to start to do right away like how will I reintroduce calories How will I know how much should I reintroduce? I'm already thinking