 Welcome to St. Tech Hawaii, Asia Review. This is Johnson Choi, the host. The guest today is Professor Kwok. Before I introduce Professor Kwok, I would like to take 15 seconds to wish everybody a happy Woon Festival. Today is the day. In Asia, in China, in Hong Kong and some places, today is also considered as a Valentine Day. So happy Valentine Day to the world. Professor Kwok is one of our fellow Hong Kongers. He was born and raised in Hong Kong. He is right now a full professor at University of Hawaii at Manoa in the Asia study department. Today our topic is very interesting and has been widely reported in the United States and around Asia. We are talking about what is happening in the South China Sea. Professor Kwok, can you share some of the recent news on the South China Sea? Well, the main news about the South China Sea is... Maybe we can have a map so they can see. Yeah. The South China Sea has two parts. One is the Paracel Island, as you can see, on the North and the Spratly Island. So our talk is mainly concentrating on the Spratly Island. What happens basically in Spratly Island is that a number of reefs that China is doing very large-scale reclamations. The news is essentially, particularly, about China's reclamations also including military installations in one of the reefs. I'll talk about that a little bit more. And the response to that is the U.S. response is sending Navy ships and military airplanes to patrol that area. I think at the moment this is the tension and this is the dispute. And it becomes not only an issue between China and its Southeast Asian neighbor, but also between China and U.S. I see. And maybe now we can take a look at map number two and show historically some of the international trade routes. Well, first of all, let's talk about what the South China Sea do. First of all, it's the most important is the trade route. I see. Particularly freight. About over 40% of the international freight comes through this area. As far as the oil? Oil, particularly for China. But basically, China produces a lot of goods that goes over the transfer to the other part of the world. And it also goes through this mainly going to Southeast Asia or South Asia and Africa as well. The other thing about it is perhaps the next map. The next map. Is the natural resources that in the South China Sea. By the way, this is not exhaustive. Basically in 1970, the early 1970s, Philippines began to explore that particular area and in 1976 actually discover natural gas. And from there on continues to discover more and more oil and natural gas. This is particularly important in this part of the world. Apart from Indonesia, apart from Brunei, none of those Chinese neighbor, including China, rich in natural resources. So this becomes a major natural resources for these nations. So this becomes another contentious point. And this is interesting enough to see. Before 1970s, you don't find, you know, claiming or sovereignty. And China is one of the major claimers. They were the earliest one to claim sovereignty in that area in the modern days. So you want to go to the next map? Yes. Well, this next map is just to show you the different claim. The red one is China. This is so-called the nine dashes line. China claimed that this exists earlier than the Second World War. And it has always been the claim. And you can look at Vietnam, the purple line, what the Vietnamese claim of this area, all the way down close to Borneo. And then you can see the third one, which is the green one. That is, I think, the Malaysian claim. Then you can also see the, that's a green one. And then you can see Taiwan also claim the brown one. And of course, the Philippine claim in the yellow line. So they all overlap each other. And it becomes a huge problematic Southeast Asian dispute. Was that once an 11 dash line? No, that's a nine dash line. Was it one time that China made concession to Vietnam when they were in better terms that filled up a section? I don't want to go like that because this is above Paracel Island. This is in the 70s. At one point of time, North Korea essentially gave China the whole Paracel Island. And then afterwards, this is why I don't want to get into it. It's a separate subject. So of course, there was a lot of complaint by some countries in the United States that there's a lot of rift reclamation. Maybe the next map will show that. Before we do that, let's talk a little bit about the methods of claim. There are basically three methods of claim. The first method of claim is historical evidence. This is where China used it extensively. Essentially, they say, well, in the third century B.C., there was already Chinese paper articles describing the islands, about fishing in the islands. And particularly in the third century AD, particularly in the world of roaring states, there are two books published in China talking about the Paracel Island as well, the Spreadley Island. And China said, well, we know about these islands. We use these islands for fishing. Therefore, even before the Southeast Asian nation even become nations. So that's one argument. There's one kind of claim. The second claim of claim is administrative department. Philippine leads everybody else. In 1970s, they already have a certain area, particularly the area closest to Philippine, the Calakia municipality. And they say, well, they actually set up administrations within the Philippine administration. Vietnam followed suit in 1982. And my pronunciation is a little weak. It's called Hong side district covering the Paracel Islands. That means we have got an administration for that. China is late. China set up the Southeast Island administration in Hainan Island very late in 1992. Now, having said that, the historical evidence and the administrative department, they are very, very weak and not consider as a reason for claim. So these are, you can say that, but nobody cares much about that in terms of claiming. So it leads into the third most important claim, that is, reclamations. Can we see the map of our reclamation? Now, this is the complexity of the reclamation. You can see China's reclamation is in red. On the top right, Tensai tells you. And then the second one is that... Let me see. The next one is the Philippine. The Philippine claim is in, I think, blue. The Malaysian claim is in green. The Vietnam claim is in purple. And Taiwan claim is in blue. So you can see that in this area, China, again, coming into reclamation late. All these other nations, including Taiwan, has set up reclamation. Taiwan, particularly in the Spreakby Island, there is an island, it's called Taiping. And they actually have people living in there. They have got administration there. And interestingly enough, in January, the last president, Ma Ying-jeou, actually went there and used the water. They say, well, this is not a reef because they have natural water. They have got well there. They get water. They have got inhabitants there. The Taiwanese are... You're very flexible. I said they have chicken running around. Oh, yes. I mean, photographs showing in drinking water and standing next to it, the Taiping Dao and the administrative offices and all that. So everybody is doing different type of things for claim. But China did it the biggest way. Particularly, as I mentioned, in one of the... Well, in all of them, they put down airline strips. Taiping Island has airline strips, too. Practically, everybody has airline strips. How long? How big? Well, China is bigger than everybody else. And it's also for military aircraft. And the most threatening thing is that China, particularly in one of the reefs, and let me make sure that I got the right name of one of the reefs that they put down missiles. Oh, I see. This is a few months ago. And then in fact, you can see photographs of missiles there. And there's a whole story as to why China went into that. And as a result, China is aggressive because they are the only nation that actually put down military installation, which is very threatening to its neighbor. And there's reason for international pressure. So, well, this is really alarming. China is aggressive. But in order to see the China's reaction, we really have to see the U.S. position in that. Because of the military installation, U.S. basically sent Navy patrol periodically in that area and also that, again, I think this is quite a play that Japan was somehow brought into. Maybe you want to cover this right now on the Asian pivot? Yeah. Maybe after the break we talk more about that. Yeah, okay. I think that's reasonable to make a break. No, we are not going to break in for a few minutes. Maybe you can add on, but the scope of country has been doing the recommendations. And I guess China is the one that's more aggressive and do it. They come late. But I guess we're going to cover later on on the pivot on the U.S. side and the other nations trying to more or less like... For some Chinese, they told me it's almost like gaining up on China. Even when China has well documented they've been occupying all these islands for centuries and somehow they say it may not be the way it should be. Well, I mean, this is China's point of view. Indeed, they are the late comers. Everybody has already built a strip and everybody is doing the reclamation. Everybody is sending people there. And don't forget that in other resources this is a very, very good fishing ground. Therefore, you will find that lots of dispute is that certain boats were being taken by other nations and lots of that sort of dispute because everybody said, they said, well, Chinese boat or Vietnamese boat coming into my territory, therefore... Okay, maybe we're going to break in a few seconds. When we come back, we're going to take a closer look at what is causing all this verbal argument or military confrontation that's happening. Particularly, why in 2011's onward this issue becomes... Okay, maybe when we come back we'll talk more about it, okay? Aloha, everybody. My name is Mark Shklav. I'd like you to join me for my program, Law Across the Sea, on thinktechhawaii.com. Aloha. Hello, my name is Crystal. Let me tell you, my talk show, I'm all about health. It's healthy to talk about sex. It's healthy to talk about things that people don't talk about. It's healthy to discuss things that you think are unhealthy because you need to talk about it. So I welcome you to watch Quok Talk and engage in some provocative discussions on things that do relate to healthy issues and have a well-balanced attitude in life. Join me. Hey, everybody. My name is David Chang, and I'm the new host of a new show, The Art of Thinking Smart. I'm really excited to be able to share with you secrets on giving yourself the smart edge in life. So awesome guests and great mentors of mine from the political, military, business, nonprofit. You name it. So it's something for everybody. Welcome back to thinktechhawaii Asian Reveal. This is Johnson Chon, I guess, today. It's Professor Quok. We were talking about the Southeast Asia, you know, what's happening right now and also looking at from the U.S. and Southeast Asia interests. Maybe Professor Quok can jump into and share with us your insight. Well, U.S. also have interests in this area. Mainly, at least U.S. proclaims essentially for the trade route. Or the freedom of levitation, that's what they call it. And I think Secretary or Secretary Clinton made it very, very clear, made declarations very, very clear that that's the main interest. And indeed, the issue or the dispute in that area threatened that. But U.S. also has other type of issues. The main issue is that if you're talking about international relations, there are basically two issues that's the most important. One is the economic one through trade, through investment. The second one is about security. The third one is about the military. Let's talk about the trade and talk about the economic interests. Ever since President Bush entered into Iraq war... The first, the senior. Yeah, and then this is... And President Obama's Afghanistan war. America's regional interests in this part of the world concentrated in the Middle East. And they neglected this whole area. Well, the vacuum is essentially filled in China. I think it is pretty well established. China's military power is way behind... United States. United States and way behind even Japan. So the Chinese way of international relations is always through economic trade, et cetera. And China did very, very well during that period. They did trade and they did economic relationship with Southeast Asia extremely well. They are always the number one to number three trade partners in this part of the world. Therefore, the relationship with these areas are very good. Whereas the U.S. is way behind. This is one area of U.S. need to catch up. And particularly, President Obama in 2011, the announcement of rebalancing Asia. And this is essentially saying U.S. has to get back to Southeast Asia. He didn't really very specify what they're doing, but essentially about trade and also about security. And then following that, that the Asia pivot. And you can look at the map that was proposed by at that time the Secretary Clinton, the Secretary of State. Basically, this is actually, this map come from U.S. source. It shows you, I mean the arrow, it shows you the kind of military installation. For example, U.S. has the number one, number two largest amount of military personnel in South Korea and Japan. Number two is in NATO. And you can see that in the arrow shows you that U.S. has a security pact with Philippines, with, apart from Japan, Indonesia, sorry, not Indonesia, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand. And basically that ports are open for U.S. military use. And on the left-hand side of the map, and you can see the Middle East, U.S. has installations. And if you're looking on a China point of view, this is really containment, threatening very much to China. So China had to do something about it. And if you look at it, China's access to the sea is mainly through Pacific. And this threatened China's access to Pacific. South China Sea, China's concern becomes one of those. We're not talking about East China Sea, but that's a different topic altogether. East China Sea is also, because if China needs to get into Pacific, or we're doing that reason, going to go down south to Indian Ocean and go to Africa, it needs South China Sea. So it's very easy for U.S. after the naval blockade? U.S. hasn't done that, but U.S. certainly has those military possibilities and capabilities to do that. So China is trying to fight not to be... I don't think... Let's be very careful. I don't think China is putting out as fighting. I see. But what China is doing is, there's potential for that. I see. They can do something about it. Okay? When we talk about the security policies, it is not as simple as a sort of guesswork and this is what happens. U.S. also have done a lot of saber-rattling. There are a number of naval exercise that keep on going in the south of the Pacific seas and U.S. constantly doing that. For example, the Fallon Seal, if you remember, the last one is 2016. There's a purely U.S. naval exercise. And another is a carrot, C-A-R-A-T. This is the last one, it's 2016. This looks like an annual exercise between U.S. and South and Southeast Asian nations, including Malaysia. Recently, the last one, China was making some protests before China never made protests. By the way, China was invited to be observant. They saw the observant. Another is Malabar, 2016. And this is with India and with Japan. And the Q-Sword, the last one, as far as I know, is 2015 with Japan. And of course, the big one that in Hawaii we know very, very well, the RIMPAC in June this year and 25 nations. And China was finally last year and this year asked to participate. And this, including naval forces from Europe and all the Southeast Asia and South Asia, this is a big military play. So in other words, China knows where they stand as well as the military. In fact, it's very interesting. I watched the Taiwan newscast this morning. Right now, actually right now today, Russia and China start one of the largest joint naval exercise in the South China Sea. And United States announced to have a major exercise sending the latest airfare carrier down from Japan and Guam the same day. And the way they cover the news coverage is the old day was when China do military exercise, the U.S. spy plane and military aircraft will be around the exercise. But today when the U.S. is sending down the airfare carrier, China is sending up a barrier of aircraft fighter jet and launch range bomber with fuel tank refueling capacity. It's watching and practicing in case they have to attack. So that's from the Taiwan media. So I think there may be some truth to that. Well, I think that's sort of Sabre rattling. It happens in both sides. And you would find that U.S. is, in all fairness, is doing much more than China. China did cooperate with Russia, did a couple of exercises. But it is quite clearly that U.S. superiority is absolutely no doubt. And what are we doing here now? It's both sides actually playing a game. This is a game of seeing how far we can go and where is the line that we draw. And what I'm trying to say is that in South China, China have drawn the line and it seems the line is at least currently seems to be fixed. And if you allow me, I will go a little bit more about that. Now, apart from everything else, as you know, that President Obama has been visiting Southeast Asia every time every nation he visited comes back with a trade agreement, but also a security pact. The press was never very, very good in giving you the details. So in other words, all of these are packed. And for Southeast Asia and for the Southeast Asian nation, it's concerned this is a good thing because trade with China, why not trade with U.S.? So there is an alternative. So the benefit is on both sides. So what China is essentially doing is this is a game of dare. What China is doing now in putting the missiles in one of the reclaimed relief is essentially saying the Southeast Asian nation, none of you can touch me. We can be the aggressor. So forget about it. So the concentration is essentially with the U.S. essentially saying that, okay, you have got all these security pact. See, we are okay with, we have a stalemate with the Southeast Asian nation. We'll do it, continue to with trade. But the most latest news is that the ASEAN meeting, this is 10 plus one and 10 plus three in July, very, very quick. Essentially, China moved the Southeast Asian, this is a conference that U.S. is not participating. And they are trying to establish the Southeast Asian nation is a South Sea conduct status. So moving away from sovereignty territory claim into what sort of conduct. So to reduce conflict. That's essentially the stalemate that China has established. Okay, I think we are at the end of the show. And then this is a very complicated, very broad subject. I understand that you may be doing another talk at the university level, maybe sometime in the near future. If that happens, there's no, we will probably, a lot of people would like to go to listen to you. And thank you Dr. Clark for coming to enlighten us with all these exciting and challenging issues. Well, thank you very much for asking me. Thank you. See you next month in October. Happy Moon Festival, happy Valentine Day.