 Welcome back. This is the Education Committee in the Vermont House of Representatives and we are looking at career and technical education funding at the moment, given the impact of late on some of the challenges facing our career tech centers. So, we've invited Scott far from the, the director of the river valley technical center school district to just give us a reminder as to, and let us know about the progress you were in earlier but you could give us an update on on the current concerns would be appreciate that. Yeah, first of all, thanks for having us back for a second time I must mean it wasn't very painless the first time and we were over at Senate education and so thanks for having us back and seeing the urgency of the issue. You know, we're just school administrator traders trying to make it work we have no special interest other than serving our, our students so we're a little naive how all this work so thanks for having us back again. And I have your screen Jesse. Can you see it. Yes, we can work great. Again, there's my intro to do a greatest hits tour of what we talked about before is the issue started last year when COVID started in that it hit in the middle of our recruitment season we didn't finish recruitment some so that affected our enrollment. Our sending schools were spending a fair amount of triage and just trying to get their students through the end of a very trying and traumatic year getting to log in and take the classes. And then that turned into kind of pushing scheduling down the road it was rushed. It didn't happen until right before the start of the school. A lot of centers saw, hey, we thought this many were going to come and then 40 or 50 didn't come for a variety of reasons. Some of that is just related to health and safety and students thinking parents thinking they didn't want to have their students mix. Did they not do well in their classes that were remote the year before that means that they had to maybe repeat some classes and they couldn't fit a tech center program in their schedule. We, so we had some drone enrollment drops at the end of the year. We had attrition through the year, and the failures that I recommended. Some of the challenges were related to the coordinating of the various schedules between multiple sending schools that whether it was the days that they were in session, or the times of the day that they held the remote classes that didn't always drive and wasn't very coordinated. Some of this was just simply because of the capacity issues with the six feet. Distance things and still falls of anybody's it's just where we were at that time. And again, I mentioned some pairs maybe made the choice that they didn't want to send their students to a place where there would be the mixing with multiple other students and, you know, as talking with a group of directors and where we were back then and where we are now we found that we were a little more comfortable with what's going on and that the masks really work and, but we didn't know that back then. So that brings us to recruit this season in the middle of COVID, which, as I said before starts in January through March, and in preparation for this pre for this testimony we gathered information which Jay will share a little bit later but there was a significant drop in the majority of the centers of how many applications came in. And you know applications lead to enrollment, and it's just not the same when you recruit remotely no matter how creative and how whiz bang the videos are that you come up with. It's just not the same as having students in the building picturing themselves in their future. Recruitment, remote activities. I know that everybody tried all kinds of different things. It's just not the same. And then we couldn't have the in person visits as follow up sometimes if a student's on the fence as far as whether they want to come. They come in shadow for an afternoon or a morning just to see if there was a real reason that they were excited about it and can they fit them see themselves there long term all those usual things just couldn't happen this year. So, you know it's a little bit different story of the financial hit for every center because the fickleness of the six semester average which determines our funding, and it depends if you're rising or falling are you replacing a good year of enrollment with a really poor year of enrollment maybe four semesters back it's all tightly tied to the number of students that walks through the door. And so the fickleness in the six semester average and every center is at a little bit different place as far as that rise and fall. And so our first covert recruitment season was just this last year and it'll be for enrollments in the fall of this year. It'll take six semesters beyond October of 2022 because that will be the first time we get a chance to have a covert free recruitment season. So this will be with us. Six semesters beyond October of 2022. So, speculating and looking in the crystal ball though probably the worst FTE burden due to lowest could possibly be in October of 2024. That puts our programming in jeopardy, you know, is a school we only have only certain places that we can go to reduce our expenses and that's usually a personnel. And I would argue that, and I have argued that the covert covert has infected CTE, more than any other school in the state school system types of school in the state because of how we're funded. That it's about students walking through the door and all the other public schools in the state for the most part is voters vote on a budget and there it is. It's not, there isn't a price tag on each student. So, solutions held harmless but that leads to ghost students and I know that was brought up in both committees. Maybe some sort of direct financial relief. That's independent of just passing the cost on to our sending schools. We could reduce staff and programming but I don't think that's very desirable given where we are as far as the workforce situation in our state and that's our primary focus. And for some years of the reduction for some centers, the reduction in staff is going to start next year. That the impacts are starting because the first semester that were impacted by COVID and the six semester average is this fall. We could pass on the cost to our sending school. And, but that would add to a barrier that's already there. You know, the funding system is a barrier and it's a hit to the local high school budget when they send more kids to CT it's probably not a good idea to let's hit that again with more and a higher cost. We could ramp up a funding system change which has been in the works, or we could creatively use coven relief funds because if they're, if we've been very much impacted by coven in a very unique way. We believe it's an applicable use I think has been testimony by Brad James previously that coven relief funds could be used I know that there's a level of relief that is happening with the ADM for high schools. I think that's around 3%. I don't know the solution because how the use and applicable uses of coven relief funds is there's rules coming out every day about that. But I know that we're impacted and that we need a solution it's going to significantly impact what we're able to do and our mission to serve the state. Thank you very much for letting me have another shot at it. There's a lot of people been working hard at this director's been putting information in and I've shared all the information we were able to gather with everybody in CT and Jay has that and I think he'll take it another step so thanks again. Thank you. I'd like to go now to Jay Ramsey and then we can open up for questions. Thank you. Is it possible I can share. Yeah. Screen sharing. Let's see. You're all set now Jay. Thank you. Now I just have to. I'm happy to bring that up for you Jay as well. I think I have it now. Let me just get it over here so I can. So it looks like I'm talking to you can you see federal funds for CTE. But we don't see anything here. I guess I don't know how to undo it. Maybe just you can do it. I got it now let's let me try it again. Okay. You can see it now. We can. Okay. Well I'll just leave it like this. So I'm Jay Ramsey I am the assistant division director of the student pathways division at the agency. I am the director of the student pathways division at the agency. And I help lead and support the. Workforce preparation programs at the agency. So career technical education and adult education and literacy. And I do have three slides at the end of this about adult education and literacy. But I understand the primary purpose to be around CTE this. This. So here's a map of the state. As you all know, the state is divided into regions. And the state is divided into regions. And the state is divided into regions. I'm highlighting three different areas because it's relevant to. Or four different areas because it's relevant to how we. Are able to give funds from the emergency relief fund. So you see the St. Johnsbury region is green. That's because that region is served by private schools. St. Johnsbury Academy and Linden Institute. As private schools serve the region for CTE. And the state is divided into regions. And the state is served by independent technical center districts. And that has some implications as we discovered last year. In the spring. For access to relief funds. So. And this family of emergency relief funds under the cares act. We have Essar. Gear. And CRF. And then we'll talk about some state funds. So as there was $28 million made available to. LEAs. And what that means for CTE is that there are 12 centers that are hosted by LEAs. And that means that the LEA. May opt to direct funds to their technical center. And then we'll talk about other CTE centers on these funds. But it is up to each LEA. How the funds will be given out. I move on to gear, which is the governor's emergency education relief fund. And governor Scott determined. That these funds should be directed to the technical centers. And. And that means that it includes the independent CTE districts because they are technical centers. But in Caledonia County, it means that we couldn't give money directly to St. John'sbury Academy and Linden Institute. But they are part of a consortium that includes the three LEAs that serve the region. And those LEAs contract with Linden Institute and St. John'sbury Academy for CTE services. And as part of that. Are able to pass along gear funds through the contract. The allocation was 4.48 million dollars. 200,000 of which. Came to the agency to administer the program. And our allocations were based on poverty. And access. And these funds are available through September 30th, 2022. And provided an opportunity for us to have some alignment across the emergency programs. So that this program would cover costs that. Would not be covered by other programs. Sorry. So we. Said that. There were four different categories. Sorry. The first category is the mobile cost personnel. Technology infrastructure instructional costs and other, which some examples were vehicles to transport projects supplies to students when they were at home. The actual funded activities fall under these sort of categories, tools, equipment supplies. So I'll read a few examples so that you get a sense of how the funds have been used. So you can access the programs. And the programs can be used on the desktop. So you can access the laptops and iPads capable of supporting software and applications that can't run on Chrome books or existing school laptops. Or that had previously been accessed on desktop computers in program labs and the program computers. The desktops couldn't be distributed to students at home. Upgraded teaching technology. So teachers can live stream demonstrations to students who couldn't be in person on a given day. And that's what I'm talking about. Under the additional staffing category. Some centers hired additional instructional aids. To allow for half of the students to be in the shop with the teacher. While the other half work with the aid on related content. In a separate physical space. Some centers have hired full-time substitutes. Some centers hired part-time nurses because the nursing services of the attached high schools. And the staff of the department of health requirements. And under transportation. Centers have requested funds to. Transport students on days when they're sending high schools are operating on a remote schedule. But the student could attend in person instruction at the tech center. Or tools and project materials. That needed to be transported to students. Communities. Or directly to students homes. And so that's what I'm talking about. Under the additional classroom space. Some centers have shown creativity and using temporary structures. And then in the last category there are recruiting practice changes. As Scott mentioned. The need to. Reexamine how the tech centers are recruiting students. In one particular example. Randolph technical career center used. In the past. In the past. It was essentially. A food trailer that allow will allow them to. Go into communities. And recruit students. It's a. Brand and trailer that. Will serve food at different functions. That was one of their creative uses of funds that. Solves a pandemic problem. But. Also solves some other problems. That existed before the pandemic. And so. Funds have been used. Oops. So I'll move into. CTE tuition. So outside of. Federal emergency fund supports. And so this is a little bit of teaching and reminding here that. The CTE base funding from the state is based on full time. The CTE funding is based on full time. The CTE funding is based on full time. And so that students split between their home high school. And the tech center. And our funding mechanism. Currently relies on. A rolling six semester average. And we're looking at fall and. Spring semester enrollments. And that changes over time. The translation for this one would be. That has long impacts on both the CTE budgets. And the tuition paid by sending high schools. So this slide. Keep going too far. Is four years worth of state level. FTE data. And it's the aggregate number of all CTE centers. The column to the left is going to drop off. The column to the right is the first year of the pandemic. So we can see at the state level, it doesn't seem like there is much of a problem. But when we start to drill down at the regional level, that's where we begin to see some. Interesting things. And now this chart. Looks at. Only the fall counts. Of the three years before the pandemic. And it's organized by tech center. The left. So if we look at Burlington technical center, the left column is FY 17. The middle column is FY 18. And the right hand column is FY 19. And I have put arrows to indicate trends over the three years. So. The overall trends. Prior to the pandemic, it was a sense of where each center was headed. And each. And we're using the fall counts because it's consistent. I know that Brad James came in and talked about. The difference between the fall and spring semester enrollments. Spring is always a little bit lower. But here you can see that there are nine centers with an upward trend in the fall counts. And there are seven centers with a downward trend. And the fall counts. And there's one center that doesn't have any data because there was an error. And I didn't have time to research the error to prepare the testimony. So my apologies. So pre pandemic. And now I'm going to show you this fall 2017. Bar is going to drop off. And then we're going to see all 2020. And the lavender color. So this chart is displaying the three most recent fall semesters. Including the pandemic. The fall 2020. So looking specifically. The arrows are looking specifically at the last two fall semesters. So pre pandemic and during pandemic. We saw eight centers with an uptick in FTE is compared to nine in the pre pandemic analysis. We see eight centers with a downward tick in FTE is compared with seven. In the pre pandemic analysis. And what we can. You know. So what I would say on this is the pandemic has had unequal impacts on CTE regions across the state. Five centers experienced a positive shift in FTE's. So Burlington, cold hollow, North country, Northwest and Southwest. It had no effect on three centers, meaning that they had a continued positive growth. Very. Stafford. And Riverbend. And it reversed upward trends at six centers. And it made FTE counts worse at three centers. So. As Scott said, I'm going to shift to another type of indicator that we. The state doesn't collect it, but for our purposes, we were Scott asked the directors to talk to. To talk about how many applications they've had. And compare it to May 19 before the pandemic. So, as Scott said, recruiting is important. Recruiting leads to applications and applications lead to enrollments, hopefully. So seven centers report. Having fewer applications when compared to May 2019. A range of minus six all the way up to minus 128. Minus 128 applications is a significant number of applications. And then there are six centers report having more applications. And then there are six centers that haven't recorded anything in, in the sheet that we were using. So. Having said all of this. And as it stands. The next few slides are looking at some specific financial implications. And. At the, at the state support level. Two things would be impacted. One is the salary assistance for the assistant director position. And the tuition reduction. Or supplemental assistance grants that are included in the statute. If we look at the salary assistance for assistant directors. This line represents the threshold that exists for that salary assistance. It's 150 FTEs. And. In order to be eligible to receive salary assistance for this position, the centers have to have 150 FTEs or more. And it looks like Burlington and central Vermont career center just passed the threshold. But they could go backwards next year and it's unclear what other centers would be impacted next year. So. We don't have that data from for the FTEs until November. And then. We go to the tuition reduction. And it looked, and this is just a simple FTE times. 35% of the base that amount. So it looks like six centers would be losing. And nine centers would be gaining supplemental assistance. 2800 up to 27,000. So. To kind of recap what you've heard from Scott and what I'm saying, fewer students or declining FTEs means fewer tuition dollars. Centers who see declining enrollments and related declines in FTEs or who have peaks and valleys. So. We have two choices. One is to cut expenses. The other is to increase tuition. The quickest way to cut expenses, as you heard from Scott, would be to cut salaries and benefits, which means either reducing the capacity of a program, cutting the teacher's hours or eliminating. A program. Riffing a teacher. And increase tuition with the hope that the reduced enrollments and reduced revenue is a temporary problem, but it becomes cyclical. If you raise tuition will high schools. Then not send more students. This. Slide is. Showing the different changes from FY 21 to FY 22 and announced tuition. So the green bars. Are the centers that increase tuition and by how much and the yellow bars are the centers that. Decrease tuition and by how much. The average increase was $511 and 18 cents. Two centers had no increase that Stafford and Wyndham. Seven centers drop tuition seven centers increased tuition. And I can't see a correlation between. The less the more the higher the tuition. So if you think of the T shifts and budget increases or decreases. There are lots of factors that go into it. So I'm just presenting Mrs. information to you. And so this is the. Getting to the solutions. In the short term. Where have the agency working through multiple options and some of changing how we fund CTE would be part of the solution. And in 2018, the legislature passed Act 189, which created funding pilots and Scott Center, River Valley and the centers in Bennington and Middlebury really stepped up and took the lead to try to figure out what a model would be that could work. The agency report for Act 189 is still pending approval, but we do have some recommendations that will be coming out, which include requests for funding to support contracted consultants to finish studying the impacts of changing the system and funding to support local implementation. And this is the end of my slides about CTE and then I have- Do we have a date on when that report should be ready? I am told any day now I don't have a date unfortunately. Okay, we know about any date now in the middle of a pandemic. So, okay, thank you. Questions, I'm just noticing that we're given options of holding harmless, decreasing stat, which has this problem with ghost students, decreasing staffing and programming, which doesn't sound like something that we're that interested in doing right now, given what we're looking at in terms of workforce development, passing on costs to the other schools also sounds like a problem. And then there's just direct financial assistance, which did happen with gear in the past. I don't know if this is something you can respond to, but I think all of us have the question here is, can, is there a thought? We recognize that the legislature doesn't have any control over gear. Is there consideration at the agency or administration to use gear funds for such a purpose, understanding that the governor has quite a bit of flexibility on how those funds are used? Well, I want to say about gear, the first version of gear, because there's new funds, the first version of gear was really intended to help the tech centers respond to some sort of emerging and immediate needs in terms of helping with virtual learning and responding in a way that tech centers really had never had to respond before or to educate students that way. So... That was CARES, that came out of CARES. Yes, the gear funds under that family of CARES Act funds. And there's gear too. I'm not part of any discussions about how those funds would be used. I don't know that the governor has made a decision yet. We've certainly submitted a few proposals for how they could be used. That I think maybe when Secretary of French comes in, it might be a good conversation topic for him. And do you have a sense of the amount of money that would be needed to keep our centers whole during this period of time without reducing programs and staffing? I don't have a sense at this moment, but the thought has occurred to us to reach out to all of them to say what is it gonna take to make it so that you don't have to cut programs or cut your staff, just to sort of make them whole for the next year, which would give us a little more time to come up with a longer term strategy. Thank you. I'm gonna go to Scott Farr and then Representative Conlon. Jay, Canada, there's taking care of it for next year, but then there's two or three years afterwards that this could be with us. So yeah, there's passion to hold for next year, but then the future is a little more uncertain depending on what the FTE accounts are and does recruitment come back? So it's a little bit more a long-term deal. Right, that is clear. We do have some significant amount of money with us right now, so looking at how we might structure going forward. Representative Conlon. Thank you. Jay, when you were doing your presentation, you sort of attributed declines in enrollment for 21 as being pandemic-related, but arguably that's only, it could be for other reasons as well. For example, Burlington doesn't have a center. It could be because we're, bubbles have just graduated and we have fewer students in our high schools. And I know that's the case in Addison County. I just wanna make sure that's a fair thing to say. Yeah, I think it would be hard to suss out what was pandemic-related and what wasn't there. There were certainly ebbs and flows in FTEs prior to the pandemic. And I think it's fair to say there's a whole range of reasons why it could be. It seems like right now, many of the things could be about the pandemic. And as Scott said, families making decisions not to enroll or in a couple of instance, I've heard students really wanted to come to the tech center, but because of the pod structure that their sending school's been in place, they were forced to decide not to. There's a whole host of reasons why we would be we're in this spot that we're in with the FTEs now. And I think it's also fair to say that phantom students versus raising tuition essentially does the same thing to the sending school. It just charges them more money. And I guess I would suggest that a better solution here is that we've got sending schools who are sitting on millions of dollars in federal aid and CTEs that really haven't had access to that aid and this aid can cover this that there seems to be a, it's that relationship that really needs to almost be at the heart of a solution here. Phantom students, it takes money off the Ed fund whereas federal funding doesn't. Anyway, I just wanted to put that out there. And I certainly hope I'm not seeming unsympathetic to this issue. Somebody who A had a student at a CTE this year and B is in desperate need of carpenters, plumbers and electricians fully support your work. Thank you. Yeah, I think we recognize that the sending schools have this money in the first few slides. I said it really relies on the relationship between the sending schools and the tech center to be able to negotiate or navigate this, how does a tech center get access to these funds? And I think ultimately it can come down to the question of well, if the host high school is wanting to contribute some money to the tech center, then should it be an equal share among all of the districts in the region or is it just the responsibility of the host high school? And that question has come up once already and we're working on the response to it. But the more we advocate for CTEs to access the sending school federal emergency funds, I think these types of questions are going to come up. Are you meeting with the CTEs? We certainly have been hearing, legislators have been hearing from the CTEs. So are you meeting with the CTEs now to try to come up with this? Ruth Durkey is the state CTE director. She meets with them regularly and I meet with her on a regular basis and Scott and I have pretty regular contact. So I feel like I have a sense of what's going on out there and I know that if I call any of them, they will help give me the answer that we're looking for. And there is gear three money. The governor has yet to assign what gear two is and maybe there's gear three. I am just aware of gear two. Are there questions either for Scott Farr? Yeah, a quick response to representative Conlon that as the person would probably be negotiating that with my sending school superintendents, it is a bit of an awkward place to put my tin cup out. But if there was some legislative or agency guidance that would set parameters to what we're negotiating about, that might help coax that conversation along. And as Jay hinted at, it's a little bit different as an independent versus a supervisory union. But I think with some parameters on how that would proceed, I think that would be helpful to us. Again, all solutions are welcome. And just, I think I would agree with that it isn't. And I'm on a school board of ascending school to an independent CTE. And I understand absolutely where you're coming from and some guidance, I think would be very helpful. I think we can do that. That would be great. We would certainly be interested in any part that we could play to facilitate this. I know our committee and the legislature as well as the administration cares a great deal about our career and tech education centers and the importance that they have, not only for education, but for our economy, workforce development. Thank you. So I believe we are reaching out to the secretary at this point to see if there's a path forward. I believe Jesse, you have, you are reaching out to the agency to seek some. Meeting with the governor. The governor with the secretary. That's correct. We're timely scheduled for Tuesday of next week. Okay, great. Thank you. Happy to have you join us again. Thank you. When that, when that happens. Representative Austin. Jay, we, did you have a presentation? And I don't know if chair web built it into the schedule, but on adult education as well. There. And the testimony that I sent in there are four slides that speak to adult education and literacy, adult basic education. So it's. We have time. We don't have work. Is that correct? Jesse. I do see. Thank you. Awesome. In the room. So. And then I think we'll. Need to start moving on though I see representative James, you might have something. So yes, please go ahead then. Okay. Do you want me to share my screen or should I just talk through that? And I can just talk to you. I know that we can certainly pull it up. It's on our website right now. I've got, I'm looking at it right now. Yeah. I'm on, I'm on slide 21. And I, um, since I oversee and, you know, help support these teams, I want to make sure that I'm talking about adult education and literacy too. And so adult education and literacy is a pathway to a diploma. And a pathway to better employment for a lot of people. There are 26,000 people in Vermont. Over the age of 25 that don't have a high school diploma. And the adult education and literacy system serves these individuals. And sorry. I'm. A little too. I was happy today, I guess. So the state is divided into. Four regions and these regions are served by nonprofit entities. They're serving multiple pounds. They have satellite locations. The nonprofit entities received state and federal grants. The workforce innovation and opportunity act title two funds. Specifically. And they get reimbursement for services from the state. They oversee the high school diploma. They implement the high school completion program. The agency oversees it. And they also charge fees for services, get donations and request appropriations from. The. So as I said, there are approximately 32,000. People in Vermont over the age of 25 that don't have a high school diploma. This adult education and literacy system in 2019. Served 1800 people. And this. Current year that we're in served 1300 people. So there's an impact of the pandemic in the ability of. The service providers to provide. The services to the people who need it most people who are living in poverty who don't have a high school diploma. The services to the people who need it most people who are living in poverty who don't have access to technology who might not have access to transportation. Really vulnerable populations. So of that 1800. People served last year. 82% were between the ages of 16 and 44 because of high school completion program. 33%. And so. We're black, indigenous or persons of color. And that's mostly in Chittenden County. And then 57% of program participants were women. And. Studies suggest that the education level of. The mother. Indicates the. You know, what is going to happen with the child, the literacy level of the child. And so. And so in terms of how this. System is organized delivery through nonprofit. Entities. They haven't been able to receive any emergency pandemic assistance. Because they're nonprofits there. They're not. Education entities. They've, they've gone out on their own and got PPP loans and some other types of support, but this. This particular system. Is very vulnerable populations has not been able to receive any. Pandemic assistance. And so I. And just, you know, I wanted to share this information with the committee because it's an area of our education system that. We don't really talk a lot about, but it is really crucial. To people's economic mobility and the ability to get better paying jobs. And so. That sounds like something we will need probably need to take up. I'm not so sure we can do it right now. But definitely puts us towards another, another conversation. I'm going to take one more question from representative James, and then we're going to need to move on to 426 because we have limited time with Rebecca Wasserman. So, so representative James last question. Yeah, thanks. Chair Webb and Jay, I'm so glad you brought that up because I, I'm so glad you brought it up. I'm so glad you brought it up. I've been following up it. It's my understanding that the four centers made a request for ARPA funding that didn't make it into this year's. Into our current proposed budget. So I just wonder, you know, it's probably too late at this point. To do something about that. I wonder if there's. Legislation we need to be looking at next year or something to organize the system differently so that they're not. They're not going to be able to do that. So I just wanted to, I just wanted to, I just wanted to point it to hear that their funding request had been denied, but I know that's a larger question. I just wanted to kind of toss that out there for future. And it seems like they're getting shot out of the COVID month. I appreciate the question and the idea to look at how the system is organized. The house past age 159, which includes. The Senate is working on. Which is operated through the tech centers, but there's an overlap of the population. The Senate is working on. Modifications to it. I just testified to house commerce again yesterday to add. Adult education and literacy to the study. And to shift the area of responsibility from the department of labor to the agency of education. So we would. We would support the. The adult CTE system and adult education and literacy system. And that was also a specific call out in the. The select committee on the future of public post-secondary education that it was not addressed in their report, but that it should be. So I think we're, we're thinking along the same lines. Great. Thanks. And I do know that our commerce and economic development. Committee has been paying attention to this. So thank you very much. We will be looking forward to hearing from the governor. And I'm certainly here that this is a concern. Thank you. Thank you.