 Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you're hailing from welcome to another edition of the level up hour. I am Chris short executive producer of open shift TV. And I am joined by three of my favorite red headers. But I'd like to hand it off to the one and only the illustrious Langdon white Langdon. Please take it away. Hi everybody. Hope everything is going well for you. I know I am sufficient or a significantly lacking in coffee. But you know, we are, we are going to have a great day. But, you know, we are, we are starting to get a little more functional. So that's a good thing. Also had a couple of few days off. So, you know, we may be starting a little slowly today, but that's probably good for the topic at hand. So today we're going to be talking about subscriptions. And I would like to let's, let's hit the slides first and then go and do intros. Is that work for that? No, let's do intros first. Yeah. I'm really on the fence. All right. So first up, we have Rich Dorito. Do you want to introduce yourself and maybe a little bit about what you do, like why we're talking to you about subscriptions? Yeah. So hello everyone, Rich Dorito, product manager at Red Hat inside of Red Hat's management business unit. Myself along with the other product managers on my team, we're responsible for the subscription experience across the various Red Hat tools. So if you think about the breadth of things that we cover, we cover everything from subscription manager to the customer portal, to the subscription experience and satellite, subscription watch at cloud.redhat.com, as well as we work with the various product teams like the OpenShift team or the Ansible team around how to integrate their tools and improve their subscription experience. I've been at Red Hat roughly 10 years, actually 10 and a half years at this point. Been in a number of roles. So I do subscriptions now and I used to be a PM for satellite. Used to do technical marketing for satellite and was a solutions architect in the sales organization prior to that. So I kind of been around the block and thanks for having me here today. Awesome. Thanks for coming. And Gordon Tillmore, who's just got the little Tillmore going, you know, we're going to think he's like a hacker or something. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Maybe I need to fix that little Tillmore first. I don't know. So hey guys, I'm thrilled to be on here. So I mean, you know, you've made it big when you're on OpenShift TV. So this is, this is a dream come true. This is like childhood dream fulfilled, right? So check the box and move on, but no. I'm late and I'm thick this morning, isn't it? Well, no, I'm thrilled. Yeah. So product marketing. I am in our cloud platforms business unit. I have been at Red Hat for a long time, 17 years and various roles. And one of the things that I'm responsible for is our level up program and working closely with these guys with the level up hour here. So that's why it's like the, you know, the project has become a reality to a certain degree here this morning, where I'm glad to be on front and center with you guys. So yeah, happy to, happy to take questions and discuss any things that, you know, all things level up and, and beyond as well. So I'm looking forward to a good conversations for you. Cool. It's, it's unusual for me to be in a Red Hat conversation where I'm new guy, you know, cause I've only been here for eight and a half years. Well, I'm way behind you on that one. You know, most of the time it's just I'm short guy, you know, cause I hang out with, you know, with a lot of. No, that's me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because I'm only five foot 10, you know, and so everybody around me is like six, two plus, you know, when you hang out with the check guys. And I know Chris is pretty tall as well. So why don't we, okay, now we're going to hit the slides. Introduce the topic. And for my slight mea culpa. We'll, we'll talk about that in a second. And here are the slides. And our graphics. Yes. And although apparently we might be doing a color scheme change, not that I can talk today. So we'll get all excited about our brand new slides suit. So check us out on Twitter. I'm at Langdon with a one and Chris short is Chris short. And Rich, you are. I'm blanking. Side something. Yeah. That is back from my days where I aspired to be a geometry teacher. And then I gave it up for the world of programming. Nice. That's awesome. I could, I could. Yeah. G. I'm a tree. One of my favorite quotes. So, and then Gordon, you don't use Twitter much, right? Not much. I've got a hand. I'm at Tillmore, but, you know, yeah. Politics and other things that turned me away from Twitter. I can't blame you for that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you can also find us on our discord. The link is there and I'm sure Chris will drop it in with the bot. And you can come and chat with us there. We have a couple of different channels, but generally speaking, you know, the general channel is more than enough. And, you know, if you have any specific questions. I'm often hanging out there. And then here is information about the show. So a little bit of why Gordon's here today is to talk about the kind of level up program. And so you can find out more details. If you go to that URL, red dot each T slash level of our, which Chris, I don't know if you have a bot for that. I can already drop it in there. Awesome. All right. Well done. And then so today we're going to talk about subscriptions. And specifically. Basically, we really want to take questions from the audience. However, we also want to talk about kind of like what it means to kind of have a subscription. What happens with things like UBI. And then things like, there's also this new training subscription that we might talk about a little bit. I think we're going to have a follow-up show on that in a few, like actually in like a month and a half or so. And then unfortunately, I don't have the show notes from last time, which was our SC Linux episode. I just kind of didn't finish them in time. You have been a little busy. I mean, yes, it's been a little busy. Yeah. We did our, we did an interesting customer virtual tour last week, except it was on the, it was with APAC or Asia Pacific, which is a, you know, a typical industry name for the region of the world that includes like China and India and Australia. So we were on that time zone for the week doing, doing customer meetings. So that was really interesting actually, but made things like being awake for a nine AM show, a little difficult. So that's what we got for slides today. And I will hit the stop sharing button. Yeah. So let's start off with, I don't know, I'm just kind of thinking is that, you know, rich, can you give us a little bit about like, you know, one of the things that helps when you're trying to use a piece of software is understanding like the philosophy behind it. And so if you understand the philosophy behind the software, like what its goals are, you know, it can often make using the software simpler and easier. And so if you kind of give us a little bit of like, what's the driving force behind. Like the subscription engine. I don't want to say subscription management because I don't want to imply like that particular product. You know, what is, what's kind of, what are you trying to accomplish? You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, what is, what's kind of, what are you trying to accomplish for customers and for users of that? All right. So you asked me like the great philosophical, what is the subscription question? Yeah. Yeah. So the, so the best way to look at it and my team were relatively like a newly formed team. So one of the things that, that I have the charter to do along with the rest of the folks on our team is to kind of unify the experience, right? Prior to probably about early 2018, red hat subscription experience was very disjointed and fragmented, right? So we have a lot of, honestly places of friction in the experience where we need to address. But when my team formed, we kind of had this, this like long, like discussion of like, what is a subscription? If you had to define what a subscription is to a person that's either inside or outside of red hat, what is it? And basically we look at a subscription as being comprised of five things, five basic, like core things. First and foremost, what do you get? Right? Most red hat subscriptions give you access to some form of content, right? Usually bits to install rail, bits to install open shift, but not always, right? We got like training subscriptions, we got learning subscriptions, but generally you get access to something. That's the first thing. Second thing that describes a description, a subscription is how long do you get access to it for? Right? The term, how long does it last? Usually a year, sometimes three, sometimes shorter, it just depends. And then the next three things that make up what a subscription are are really just a bunch of use cases, right? Who do you call for support? Do you call red hat for support or do you call nobody out? When do you call us for support? 24 by seven or five by 12 or not at all. So you have some subscriptions you can't call for support. And then also what type of support do you get when you call us, right? A lot of times most folks want production support, but we also had development level support where we'll give you assistance with design. And every red hat subscription is basically combination of those five things, right? If you change any one of those things, it also changes things like pricing because we sell those things at different metrics, right? You pay more for premium versus standard. So that's what a subscription is. So then the goal of the subscription tooling is to help folks understand how much of each type do they have deployed? Where do they have them deployed at? And are they above or below the capacity of what they've purchased? Now the way we've traditionally have implemented that in the past was we kind of made you micromanage it a bit at the operating system level, right? And one of the things we realized in doing that was there's a lot of friction in doing that because you're crossing what we call a persona boundary, right? Operators care about operating. Procurement cares about bills. And we had historically built a set of tools that try to satisfy both personas and didn't really do good at it, right? So you'll start to see in the future of red hat tooling, if you're a satellite user, you've probably already seen this, but for our customer portal users, you'll start seeing a new subscription experience going out that does not require you to do things like attach subscriptions. So my team's goal at a very, very high level is I want to help the operator to understand, can I deploy a thing without someone yelling at me, right? And then I want to procure a person to be able to understand, you know, at what point do I have to pay red hat money? How much do I have to pay them, right? Those are kind of the two like core goals of subscription management. Now we also have to take the existing systems we have today and turn them around and kind of starting to get them to march in that direction. And that's going to take us some time, right? But we do have a lot of new capabilities that are available today that help. So I have actually like, I have that in a sense quasi exact experience, right? I primarily spent most of my career as like a developer and our company, whatever organization that was, you know, whether I was consulting to them or working for them would have a subscription to something, right? So for example, they have, you know, a red hat subscription. However, as a developer, I don't generally speaking have the ability to go after the content myself, right? And as a result, I have to kind of go through a middleman, you know, of like a, you know, some admin type person or whatever to access the content that's available to the company. The problem is, is much like the FTP by email, if you want to super throwback, you have to know what to ask for, right? So kind of what I'm curious about is like that sounds, I really like the distinction of kind of the permanent person versus the kind of operator person. What about kind of the developer person? Do you have a plan or a thought around where developers would be able to access subscription content that is available to my company? So I don't mean like a developer subscription. I mean like, you know, an actual company one, or at least a way for me to know, like have a catalog that's available to me that is pre-approved or something like that. So admins often don't want me to be able to install things that they don't want to be able to, that they are not going to allow to play of. Right. So, so from that perspective, right? Like we've been looking at, you know, myself, because I'm really responsible mostly for tooling, but my tooling supports business initiatives that like my friends in the rel business unit or the developer business unit works towards. And one of the things that we've looked at was when we say developer, there's actually multiple types of developers, right? There's no one size fits all, right? There is, hey, I'm an independent developer and I want access to the bits because I like your ecosystem and I want to learn your stuff because maybe I want to build a career on top of your technology, right? The way we make it so that person access subscription services might be a little different than the way, you know, the large Fortune 500 company that has, you know, 5,000 developers needs to access our subscription services, right? Both of those are valid use cases, but the way we take them through the experience might be a little different. So one of the things that, you know, the teams working on and my team supporting is those developer experiences for those large organizations, right? Red Hat believes that it is in, you know, the best interests of our relationship with our customers to make it easy for you to use RHEL for development style use cases. Well, RHEL and other Red Hat products, but leading with RHEL. So you'll see, you know, new Red Hat programs in the near future that will address those types of use cases so that if, you know, again, if we go back to, like, what's a subscription, right? There are subscriptions that you pay for for a certain reason, right? You want a certain class of support. You want a certain type of support, but we also have subscriptions that are like, you know what, if I just need access to the bits, I don't plan on calling you. Maybe we can make those subscriptions more freely available inside of the large enterprises and be able to do that so that not every developer in the company has to go to a portal and sign up, right? We want to make it so that you getting access to that software is a function of your relationship and that's handled at the account or organization level versus, you know, a big email goes out to a distribution list is like, hey, every developer in the company, right? Go to this portal and sign up, right? Because that's one, people aren't going to do it, people are busy and that's just another form of friction and just a few more words. I think I've seen those emails inside Red Hat just to be clear about, like, other products. I will neither confirm nor deny the existence of said emails inside Red Hat. Like, we got big company problems too, so we know. Yeah. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I think that's actually, I think you kind of keep touching on another point that I think a lot of people will find confusing or don't, it's not really that they find it confusing is that I think they don't realize it is that your subscription is almost more about your support model rather than it is about kind of access to bits. Like in a sense that you, for the vast majority of the subscriptions, right, the kind of baseline is just kind of access to the bits for that thing. And I say just to be clear when I say access to the bits, right, what we mean is like binary bits. In other words, things I can download and run, right, but it's kind of a slang term. And so when you, when you're kind of, you know, kind of like all of them have access to the software itself, you know, in a particular class. So if you buy an OpenShift subscription, you get access to that software. But then you, the escalation is really just around the support level, right. Are there, are there other variables that are, that one should be aware of? Or is it really just that kind of support level that is the big gait or limiting factor for the most part? So it's the big things that change probably the most often that most people would care about is the support level, right. I'll say support stuff because support stuff is basically three different variables, right. There is the when do you call for support? Who do you call for support? And what do they help you with when you call? Right, those are kind of the three things that go in the support bucket and depending on your organization, you may need different combinations of those. Sometimes the bits do in fact change, right. There is not a one-size-fits-all, for instance, for like RHEL content. For some of the other products, like OpenShift or Rev or like Satellite, they do have a one-size-fits-all content model where all of their subscriptions get the same stuff. But in RHEL, there are scenarios where there are either add-ons for RHEL, so things like high availability or the resilience storage and things like that. Those are add-ons that you would pay additional costs for and even inside of RHEL there are other things like we have extended maintenance streams for RHEL where if you need to stay on a minor release for a longer period of time, that's something that you can either purchase separately or you can kind of like uplift to a bigger subscription which includes that. So it is, the content does change from time to time, so it isn't always just support that changes what subscription you buy, but it is, that's probably the big one. I'd say like of all the things that changes most, it's usually support first, then content, and then like terms kind of a weird one because like, well of course if you need it, you need it. It's just a matter of are you going to get it for a one-year term or a three-year term, and even occasionally we have five-year terms. Yeah, one quick shout out which you mentioned kind of in passing, but I would definitely shout out for is the developer support which I think that term is also confusing because there's kind of different meanings to that, when you talk about it, when you get it the developer support subscription I can't remember exactly what it's called but you can actually call and ask for kind of architecture help which I find particularly interesting because I was a Microsoft developer for a long time and it's very difficult to communicate with kind of anyone within the kind of Microsoft support ecosystem without like a bug. This is kind of something different than that. This is more like I'm trying to build out this environment in my kind of approaching it the right way and in my experience I've only kind of messed around with that with really in the rel kind of world but is that kind of more uniform or is it still mostly rel is it things like, you know, can I call up and talk about containers with somebody at Red Hat? So yeah, so the definition of development support I'll tell you right now, I don't like the terminology we use it's overloaded terminology but putting that aside it is a great program I think the best analogy I would probably draw like an outside Red Hat analogy was developer support is very much like an MSD and subscription for Microsoft it's not the subscription you're going to pick up the phone and call when you've got a production down that's not the purpose of development support purpose of development support is hey, I'm building this app and I'm calling this method or API is this the right way to do it will Shadowman be upset if I do this the wrong way? Those are the kind of questions that are included in development support which is awesome honestly because it means that you have a matrix of support all the way from the inception of your application and then as that application grows if it ever goes into production you can put it on a system that has production support and you get that runtime brick fix support that's exactly my point we have hundreds of pieces of software maybe thousands of pieces of software in just RHEL and there's no way I as a developer even an architect can necessarily say this is the direction that system home D is going over time so is there somebody I can call that's an expert so that I know if I kind of invest in this part of the API will it be there for the long term and it sounds like that is something that we offer I also wanted to give the caveat that I haven't been a Microsoft developer in many many many years so all of that could have changed it was just kind of my experience a long time ago sorry to cut you off a little bit there and the only thing I was going to add is dependent upon which product that we have at Red Hat some products offer development support some don't so RHEL offers it the middleware products offer it I believe OpenShift currently does not I think that's a correct statement and I think part of that is just because most people are doing development on things on top of OpenShift the people who would need development level support for OpenShift itself would be like a partner who's integrating maybe like someone was building like a container scanning app those are the kind of folks who would generally need development level support for something like OpenShift so that is something just when you kind of go down that route of development that depending on the product you may want to you know talk to either an account team or a Red Hatter just to understand if development supports available but for most of the portfolio it is right well I mean so for the vast majority of software kind of near OpenShift you're really running RHEL right in the sense that you know you're running a container which is actually doing your thing and that container has RHEL content it's not really OpenShift content per se right and so you know that would be exactly your point I think it's interesting I wanted to digress for a minute I felt like there was a good transition there but maybe I'm crazy I don't know so Gordon I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about kind of what the level up program is doing regarding subscriptions yeah from a training standpoint yeah I was kind of I was thinking it was like meeting with training sure a couple different things first off I have to admire the fact that Rich invoked Shadowman would Shadowman mind if you know we went down this path kind of like thinking of that but anyway level up is really the goal of level up is to reach out to all of our Linux aficionados our RHEL aficionados and gurus out there and try to level up their domain expertise or their skill sets and give them a path to get to Kubernetes so whether it's their skill set itself which we have some prescribed training for which we can talk about or the actual open shift subscriptions right so we we're doing both right so we've got outreach where in essence on the subscription front what we're saying is look we want you to kind of put your toe in the water with open shift and with supported open shift at that we want to give you a subscription if you meet you know certain basic criteria and the criteria is fairly basic is the word right so I mean if you've got active RHEL in your organization and I think the cutoff is five active RHEL subscriptions and you don't have open shift well guess what you can you can get a full year support for 10 cores of open shift to try it out so level up your organizational agility so to speak if I'm quoting the marketing speak here right but to your point about training well first let me ask you guys a question you guys had red hat certified system administrators you guys know those are guys on the ground right there you got I used to be one yeah if you were used to be one you're always one right that right yeah when the certification director Randy Russell has always told me and I used to work really closely with Randy but what he's always told me is you know once a once an RHCSA always an RHCSA it's like a marine thing right and you never you never not an RHCSA and you can be current or non current and you can get a semantics of it all and you know you can get into that if you want but back to my question to you guys when we're talking about red hat certified system administrators anyone want to put out a guess in terms of how many RHCSAs are out there on the planet oh gosh probably in the tens of thousands you might even want to go higher than that hundreds of thousands at this point yeah yeah rich you're on to it so I think at last count and they don't quote it but it's upwards of it's close to 200,000 I think and maybe more I don't know I know they used to put out figures but they don't do that as much anymore but there's a the bottom line is look as there's a lot of red hat certified system administrators who you know these guys are RHEL champions right and they've been RHEL champions for not just years but decades now and so what we're trying to do is reach out to these folks and say look you know RHEL you know you've made careers out of RHEL architectures are based on this now let's move you to the next level if that's where you want to go and we'll make it easy for you so we just in a nutshell I mean we've got a couple of things so all RHCSAs and I can give you guys a landing page of this later on but all RHCSAs if you're current or non-current so if you're for instance and you're non-current you're eligible just as much as if you got your RHCSA yesterday but we've got 50% off this one of our most popular courses this D0180 open shift one course so I think normally look at the web page I'm pretty sure normally it's $2,700 get 50% off so log in with your RHCSA account number and you're good to go it'll appear in your shopping cart at 50% off and there's also to tail on to that a new new ish red hat credential certification for Kubernetes that was launched say August, September somewhere in there but it is red hat certified specialist in containers in Kubernetes so it's got a longish name but we've got that at 50% we just keep making those names longer for all of our products at least it doesn't have enterprise in there platform or something don't give him ideas just be happy we don't add like other work groups that's true anyway it's true but this one's 50% off too you guys know this better than I do when you look at foundational Kubernetes what is Kubernetes distributed Linux we want to give people a path to move from A to B that's what we're hopefully doing with this level up program that last one the name change there content change as well focusing open shift is a convenient useful bundle of Kubernetes and a bunch of other stuff it's not fundamentally different if you want to understand Kubernetes taking that course is going to teach you how to understand Kubernetes and maybe the variations around what the open short open shift distribution of that tool chain but it's not like a big change in the tool chain I think that was a wise choice on the kind of we keep changing the name of that group the learning classes committee group organization within Red Hat GLS, Red Hat training I get confused about which ones which I do like that you came up with a new nickname for Chris there open short my real question about the active versus current RHCSA does being a nonactive RHCSA still get you into the secret party at Summit is really that is an excellent question that's what I'm curious to know the answer to I would presume so but I would have to defer to our friends in GLS land that training land I'm not sure I would have to assume so this might be why I always carry at least one active Red Hat search there you go just to be clear with that just so you guys know we were joking earlier about Marie once in RHCSA always in RHCSA and frankly that's the same with RHCE all of our search the whole basis is if you've gotten your certification in the last three years you are current and apparently that shows up on certification central and other places you can check and you can see if that's the case if it's beyond that three year period it's noncurrent not that you've lost it it never expires it never goes away it's just current versus noncurrent and you can always re-up it and in fact as part of level up another offer is hey if you're a noncurrent RHCSA and you want to re-up it and test on the latest and greatest and take the RHCSA exam you can do that that's another 50% offer for given folks so I think normally it's 400 bucks I want to say USD and now it's half that if you're a noncurrent RHCSA so Chris maybe you should pony up some money here exactly yeah maybe you might have a question though that pertains to this like what about the non-RHCSA folks right like are we doing anything for them potentially to help get them like jump-started into the container era that's a great question Narenda there is D0101 D0101 D0101 I think it is which I believe is for a while that was free of charge and I think if you do a Google search on D0101 it still might be there are what I can tell you without tipping my hand too much there are plans to do exactly what Narenda is talking about okay yeah and another note on that front too this certification exam I'm speaking of this with the long name right red hat certified specialist in Kubernetes and containers in Kubernetes I got it right that you don't need to be an RHCSA to take that so I mean you can jump into that right now it's $400 I think if you want to take it and bam you are red hat certified so you can take it from your computer you obviously don't have to go to a red hat training facility to do it with which was a heavy lift by itself as I understand it GLS team yeah yeah really and one thing I should they rolled out actually a whole like new infrastructure for doing remote learning as well over the past like two months or something so even if you've done remote stuff with them before I think you'll have a better experience now because they like I said they just revamped the infrastructure for how it works I don't remember the details exactly what they did but I do know they kind of rolled out a whole new platform the perfect segue and just to close out on my thinking on this you mentioned the 50% off the course the D0180 there's not obviously a whole lot of in-person training going on in the world right now hopefully that changes we all get shots in our arms right but so GLS landed to your point they really have been ramping up their online efforts and this particular offer here it relates to that so the two formats that you can get this 50% off in are what they call online education I believe it is where literally you get all of the course curriculum and you get all of the video feeds and webinars and labs and other things and you've got 90 days to take it so you've got a fair amount of time to take it and then the other format you can take is what they call video classroom which is literally a video of the 4-day class just kind of asynchronous it's like streaming Netflix or Amazon you kind of stream it and play it when you want to play it and you get the same content there that's the idea with the two offers here so we did have a question on the chat that's probably a little bit more for Rich but my guess is you're not going to know the answer to this but it basically the question was one of the challenges that the audience member had was when they kind of call in for support they seem to get routed to weird time zones weird locations on the planet due to time zones yes good point and so and as a result doesn't have as kind of timely a response as they would prefer I'm just curious is that like do you know if there's is there regions of excellence as it were around support knowing how red hat engineering works that wouldn't surprise me like we have these clusters of developers who work on particular projects in various regions of the world that don't really have any correlation with anything except that that's where the cluster got built and I would just curious you know perhaps supports the same way and that that might be the routing or if there's other routing things that you can do or just curious if you know anything about this I thought it was an interesting question and I have no idea to be honest so it's kind of a little bit of all of that right so one of the things that support engineering try to partner on really well is making sure that within a particular meta region right so think of North America slash Latin America Europe Middle East and Africa and APAC we try to have support personnel as well as QE personnel as well as engineering personnel kind of all co-located right so if a customer calls in with a critical issue we can kind of go soup the nuts you know in that time zone we try that as best as possible that isn't universally held because some of our products are incredibly specialized think of things like our identity products right they are some incredibly complex products but that's something that support and engineering try to aim for so that's what will happen a lot of times is that they'll route your support case to to the area that has the most amount of expertise if it's something like well we have well covered in every time zone across the planet right if it's a newer product or a more specialized product they may have expertise in a certain region so they may send that ticket there first even though that might be outside of the time zone of the person who opened the case and it I wouldn't say it's hit or miss because that kind of sounds bad but it does vary by product okay okay and that makes sense right I mean you know like some of the products are smaller than the others and somebody else is complaining in the chat about wanting to sleep at night which you know that seems you know I thought we got into software because we didn't care about daylight so just a real quick technical note it looks like discord like there's some issues with the chat aggregation so I wanted to mention this pinhead over in discord chat says there is a time zone field you should make sure is set for you jp-dade so make sure that that time zone field is actually set for us eastern time double check next time you call in or just call in or email in and oh it is okay great that's weird yeah well or it's to Reese's point if you're asking about like we can only have you know so much expertise in any given location right so if you're asking some deep dark question about how you know h.a.proxy works under you know this kind of particular unusual condition you're going to get to the expert which may or may not be your time zone versus you know a more generalized question like you know the things I would ask you know which is going to be able to answer by you know a grammar school kid yeah so that was kind of like I said I thought it was an interesting question so I wanted to kind of bring it up the other thing and this is a little bit to Gordon somebody else mentions in the chat as well that their company actually offers you know a bonus for getting to certification on they actually specifically talked about AWS but I was just kind of curious is like is have you heard anything about that being like effective in the field you know to try to get encourage certifications you know in our customers not obviously us per se but you know our customers kind of saying hey we really want to encourage you to have these subscription or these certifications so we offer this bonus yeah I you know I can't speak to a specific instance but you hear it anecdotally all the time right where our partners and our customers I mean the most successful ones are the ones who have this domain expertise in place so I know that I want to say it was Accenture who had a similar program in place don't quote me on that but there's I know I've seen several instances where it's exactly that so barring this AWS model but for Red Hat where it's like hey look let's get our guys up skilled to do that you know once you hit this threshold we'll give you bonus X once you get this threshold bonus Y out there called Red Hat Learning Subscriptions and they even offer like a 7 day free trial on this it literally just opens up the entire curriculum to an individual and you can get enterprise licenses too I think but I want to say it runs like $6,000 for the basic and another $1,000 on top of that for the more advanced which gives you even so $7,000 gives you access to all of our certifications for instance right so you have in essence Red Hat training in a box right there your year long subscription you know Rich was talking about different types of subscriptions earlier this is yet another one right so I would if you guys are interested in that just Google it Red Hat training subscription or I think it's Red Hat Learning subscription actually and they have a 7 day free trial you can check it out and it's worth looking into and I think that also just launched like not like they just reorganize the program so if you have looked at it in the past I think it also very recently changed so you know it'd be worthwhile checking it out again like I think I remember seeing the like you know announcement or whatever like within the last month or two yeah I don't want to be like the training guy because I mean I worked with these guys for years but I mean that's no longer my realm so I almost need to bring one of those guys on the program here one of these days but um yeah they have in fact have some of those people coming up in like a like a couple months look at that but no it's I mean to your point earlier they've done a ton of work with this stuff in recent months right and a lot of great stuff out there for all of our customers in this front yeah as a as a person who got their RHCA before coming to Red Hat I wish I had a learning subscription haha yeah like I mean you know I'll I'll give a personal very personal example right where I was at my previous organization before coming to Red Hat now granted this was 10 years ago right um I was like you know what I'm fed up like um I need something new like I want to do the next big thing and then my head I'm looking around I'm like well I don't want to get certified on like with investment I want to make it myself and I was like you know what if I if I get my RHCA that'll definitely help if I wanted to go work for Red Hat right and then I was like if I get the RHCA that definitely will help right right so yeah so I mean I went ahead and I made that investment self-studied and and you know took advantage of getting all five of those certification courses the five that you need for well back then and then uh it was kind of funny that like like three weeks after I got my RHCA now granted your knowledge may vary but three weeks after getting my RHCA my solutions architect was like hey you want to go work for Red Hat so so I got an immediate return on investment on uh on that investment I've made in those in those training courses but uh you know given that the learning subscription you know gives you access to all the all the training right which at the time I had to go spend money out of pocket take my own like PTO to go and actually sit in the class and get trained now I can if I had a learning subscription I can do that from home right after hours you pair that with like the the zero cost developer subscription which gives you access to the bits right you can build your home lab you can work on the stuff in a real environment so there's there's a whole bunch of goodness that that that you get that will help further your career learning subscription is one of them and I like I like I said I wish it was there 10 years ago you know funny side note on that it's it you know back 10 years ago 12 years ago that's when I was still with this GOS marketing and we rolled out RHCA red hat certified architect in the program we put in place with something called race to RHCA and so we we wanted we had all these grand plans right and we wanted to offer like one of the first RHCA is like a Corvette for a year with a shadow man logo and an RHCA logo on the front and we had all this stuff lined up and we were going to push the button and send this out and then legal kind of looked at it barfed on they went are you kidding me giving away a Corvette sounds like a really hard like corporation to do well in general it would be a subscription to a Corvette right it was a lease it was a lease yeah so that being said this I forget the name but someone brought up and chat something that CNCF does and I only know this because I'm a CNCF ambassador and they allow for multiple retakes right so if someone's paying $400 to take this exam and they you know bomb it for whatever reason bad night sleep whatever they have to pay another $400 to take it again and I'm wondering if that's something I could feed back into the GLS pipeline to be like hey maybe one free retake during these COVID times might be a good idea yeah talk to our GLS marketing folks about that I actually I thought we are doing something like that are we during the COVID time yeah maybe it's part of the level up program but yeah there was something about free retakes I remember reading to you earlier don't quote me but you know it's worth googling because I swear I read that somewhere but maybe I you know maybe I misunderstood the longest time and this is again something I worked on ages ago but there was something called exam insurance where you could spend another I don't know $100 or something and buy the insurance so if you didn't pass you could take it again I don't think they still offer that that doesn't still like I feel like that would cause me to fail if I bought that I would be the thing that would change myself exactly yes yeah I just it's funny I haven't taken very many certification exams like that but when I was doing the practice test for one my I was having a hard time with it my wife just kept saying you need to learn to think inside the box like and what I specifically remember is that like I was answering questions the way this technology worked in the real world not the way it was intended to work so there were bugs right I had been using this stuff a long time and I knew where the bugs were and so I automatically kind of pivoted around those bugs because you had to work around whatever and so I would get the questions wrong on the exams because I was taking into account the bugs so yes I've a little I've always had a bit of a challenge certification exams so but I wanted to go back a little bit to subscriptions and specifically mentioned Rich you mentioned something called subscription watch which I don't really know what that is however I did just open it up in a web browser and I thought it looked interesting so I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about it yeah so subscription watch is a new application that my team maintains that provides basically fleet-wide visibility into the usage of a product so one of the one of the big things that we've run into especially with our larger customers is they're like how much am I using and where am I using it at right and if you think of tools like Red Hat satellite which a lot of our large customers use those tools operate more or less autonomously from the customer so if we go back to what I said before about how we want to address those personas I want to be able to send a person who doesn't know the intricacies of how the technology works I want to be able to send them to a portal and say this is a dotted green line that shows you what you own and here's a chart that shows you what you've used are you above that line or are you below that line that's what subscription watch does so today it exists for Red Hat Enterprise Linux and for OpenShift we're in a process of expanding it out for the rest of the portfolio so if you're an OpenShift customer you go to you know OCM you manage your OpenShift clusters you have to do nothing for your subscription experience just use OpenShift right we own OCM we own subscription watch we just pair the two together so instead of having to do things like oh I got to go and title this system or I got to go and title this cluster just use the software we'll visualize how much you're using inside a subscription watch and you go look at that dotted green line if you're above that line you might want to have the conversation with your account team you're below that line you're good right we built integrations into other products like our customer portal as well as satellite so that those tools can now send their inventory up to subscription watch so if I'm a you know large customer I finally have the ability to say or see here's how much rel I'm using here's the type of rel I'm using is a physical virtual is it running on the public cloud on which public cloud is it running I now have a dashboard that gives me that and we show that to you over time I think we're required to hold two or three years of data so now you can actually look at well how is my use exchanged over time right am I going up into the right or am I going you know down into the right like those are the kinds of questions that you know empower many of the transactions that we have with you like when your account teams like hey it's time to do a renewal how much rel you got I don't know like we got to make it a lot easier to gather that information and tools like subscription watch help you do that and subscription watch when it's paired with its kind of first cousin another technology we built called simple content access that's another technology that we built really to make life easy for the operator right so those two technologies live somewhat in an ecosystem together like you don't have to use them together but they work really well together because what simple content access does is it makes it easy for the operator to just operate register the system install the bits you don't have to worry about it attaching entitlements that's awesome so but we still need to show people how much you're using and that's what subscription watch does so what I'm curious about is you know we're I think we have a number of products for lack of a better term like starting to land where we're kind of looking at your whole ecosystem you know really kind of giving you visibility into that hybrid thing that you built right in your environment another one is redhead insights and I'm curious if is there a plan or an idea or a concept or whatever of starting to bring like subscription watch and insights together or are they considered part of the same thing now so I'll answer that question very directly because we're doing this right now so originally when my team was built we actually were kind of just like putting a corner was like hey like go stuff right go fix stuff and don't come out until you got something that's awesome right so we did and we went off and we built subscription watch and we you know we built simple content access and we made those capabilities available to the field subscription watch itself lives on the same platform and infrastructure as insights right so my team's goal again is to basically we joke about it but we say we make subscription management subscription non-management right like if I do my job right you shouldn't know I exist and what that means is that we want to integrate into the tools that you're already using so if you're using redhead insights you are using subscription watch we just pull all that information out of the insights database automatically right actually we don't pull information out it's actually the same database we just look at it differently so from a technological perspective don't think of subscription watch as being another piece of software you now have to build into your operational processes and have to learn how to use think of it as as I'm using other red hat stuff it will show up in subscription watch and really your goal is to log into subscription watch from time to time and does it look right does it not look right and even that we're going to make that go away because we're building out some comprehensive notifications so we can just fire you a notification you know when you reach a certain you know threshold just like you can do on the public cloud where you say if I go over a certain span send me an email or something like that so I will say you know you kind of talked about it from the perspective of like big customer me as a person because I try to use our products in as much of a public facing way as possible to kind of give them you know some testing and you know that kind of stuff just so I can give some feedback and so I use the developer sub to get access to rel for example and I know for me something like subscription watch would actually be super handy because because I churn VMs with rel so fast a lot of the time that kind of getting a sense of like you know why am I getting this error right if there's a quick and easy way to say oh it's because you know you're using 300 subscriptions and you only have access to 10 that's a that's a good piece of data you know so that's a you kind of getting a sense of that overall you know consumption even even kind of as a single person right is actually really useful because it's very hard to wrap your head around where all that stuff is allocated at any given time at least for me I don't know maybe I'm just slow but it's actually it's a use case that like one of my like very next box like my look at my roadmap post summit because you know how red hat works right there's everything you do up till summit the month after summit for you to catch your breath and then you basically start preparing for the next summit right but one of the products that's really high on my roadmap is the developer products right I want to make sure that because they're so critical to Red Hat's future that we represent those in subscription watch and one of the things like from a use case perspective a big pain point of our subscription tools as they have historically existed has been dealing with high-churn environments right because historically you've had to register the system entitle the system and then keep track of those entitlements over time right so if you're doing something like a CICD workflow or you just maybe you delete the VM and you forgot to unregister it I mean come on I'm human sometimes that happens right you don't know until you've exhausted all of your entitlements that you're out and then you're like well which of these systems is the one that has the entitlement that I need to reclaim right and that becomes of just it's a painful process right they're all called localhost.local to me right look man it's not my fault I have working DNS well so I wrote the plugin for vagrant that does automatic registration for RHEL and let me tell you how painful it was debugging that piece of software when I would run into running out of subs constantly yeah so the big thing from my perspective is I want to make it so that the penalty for getting it wrong is next to nothing right so if I'm a SysAven and I forget to delete a system out of inventory so what right like at the end of the day so what right I want to visualize to you that you haven't done it but I'm also not going to penalize you for not having done it right so the first thing and this is especially for the developer program right that is that's going to be important capability is that new subscription experience we deliver via simple content access it's only available to set customers today we plan to release it at summit for our customer portal customers for our non satellite customers okay so what that means is that as a developer you go to developers.redat.com you sign up for the developer program you get your 16 entitlements of RHEL go ahead and deploy the systems they'll show up in subscription watch right you'll see how many are out there but let's say you know you've got 16 systems deployed you threw away one but you didn't unregister it right and then you go to build that 17th system without simple content access we'll tell you hey dude you got entitlements you got to go find the one that needs to give up an entitlement and you're like dude this sucks I'd rather go use something else right that's usually the response that you get right most people don't go spelunking for entitlements most people are like this is friction I'll just go use something else whereas when simple content access is turned on go ahead register that 17th system we still give it access to content the next morning you log into subscription watch you'll see you have 17 systems consuming content and you can sort them by which one was the last you know one that checked in what have you the great thing that we do in subscription watch is we do auto call out old systems so let's say you did you know you did delete a system you threw away to VM but you didn't properly unregister it I believe in like three or four days I can't remember the actual timing but there is a auto calling that we do so we're not representing that system as using content even though it's actually been been killed off so that's that's like the kind of stuff that my team works on is that like look we want to make it so that it's easy to use the stuff we want to make it so that like if you do something stupid like you don't unregister a system it's not the end of the world right and those capabilities are kind of top of mind for me I can't wait for summit to get here honestly because like our satellite customers have had simple content access since last summit and they love it yeah right they absolutely love it because again it lets operators operate right like you don't have to have a phd in red has subs to build a frickin rail server right that's that's that's it right like I have a phd in red subs because I'm financially compensated to have that phd right but most people aren't so so that's that's really my goal my goal is register and run connect the box enable the repos you need if you need anything beyond the you know defaults and just install the bits right let us worry about visualizing how many subscriptions and skews and entitlements and stuff that you're using because we know all the dark art to count all that stuff and that shouldn't be a blocker for you using the technology yeah yeah I I 100% agree I wanted to sidebar just a little bit because someone in the chat brought up that if you do buy the learning subscription you get two retakes I think per exam is the way they describe it okay obviously I'm reading something in the twitch chat so you know your mileage may vary you know go check it yourself but it does sound like that there are retakes built into the subscription or the learning subscription so I found a question that I think we should have addressed but I lost it and then found it again do you want to hold on a second and do the yeah and then let's do it okay yes so Rich I don't know if you've seen the show before but we do a thing called the sweet sweet internet points on this show which if don't laugh at it Rich don't laugh at it there are no serious reasons required so serious actually it is kind of like a subscription in fact the more shows you come to the more points you get and so you know if you ever use slash dot or reddit basically you can't work in tech and not have done those things so up voting down voting the idea is that people are interested in collecting points and so we decided to distribute points for the show and currently our leaders are Narenda with 4400 points and Netherland's Hackham as we've decided to pronounce that is 4300 points sorry I was looking in another window for the the cut and paste for today's show which should be that it's also on the screen in case you see it there but I just put it into the chat hopefully that's going to be streamed around and then we have no affriction with 3500 points Joe Fuzz with 2300 points Detective Conan Kudo who I didn't see today but who's been a pretty strong new regular and Baconfork who's also been a strong new regular but I also didn't see in the chat today I like that name Baconfork it is a good name I have to be careful about the pronunciation but other than that it is a very good name so yeah so thanks so much as always for coming and collecting points I reiterate that we are so close to being able to make them more than just intrinsic value points and we will hopefully be able to continue that imminently and yeah so there's the points for today I threw the way to get the points for today's show in the chat so please see that there or it's on the screen right now basically you just go to that form and fill in with this particular code I will reiterate because this is also getting closer you may see these codes elsewhere on the kind of red hat properties I don't really want to say the internet but if you see those codes elsewhere you can also submit those codes if you submit an issue on the repo or you submit a PR or basically there's a whole activities page excuse me there's other ways to earn points besides attending the show watch past shows and submit points for those so that was the internet points which we always like to hit and we try to hit within the literal level up hour but Chris what was the question that you found so this might be a deep subject but it's definitely for Rich could you talk about the differences first on subscriptions between virtual and physical environments man alright we have plenty of overflow time so don't you worry grab a glass of your favorite beverage and let Uncle Richie take you on a trip back into the subscription way back machine so gosh where do I start alright I'm going to do this so long long time ago in a red hat far far away we used to offer red hat subscriptions based solely on physical systems right like we're talking in the world pre-virtualization so you go by your old Dell PowerEdge 2650 you bought a rel sub off you went back then subscription management was really not a thing because it was just simple math you counted pieces of hardware that's how many subs you purchased super easy you didn't need a PhD in subscription management it was about all you needed at that time right then virtualization happened right and folks were like well hey wait a minute while I can take those subscriptions I purchased for that Dell 2650 and use them on my virtual machines that seems kind of wasteful red hat but a virtual machine only has like two VCPUs and four gigs of memory can you give me a subscription offering that covers a virtual machine and what red hat looked at red hat was like alright well yes we can do that let's introduce virtual style subscriptions and those are subscriptions that were purchased based on a hypervisor right so you bought it for a hypervisor and in addition to providing access to the hypervisor you got a certain number of guests on top of it right and back in the day this was four or unlimited right yes there were some yeah I'm predating you this is like I said this is like old red hat this is like this is back before shadow man possibly even had a shadow like this is old stuff so then as virtualization became more common and more prevalent right we kind of matured those subscriptions and now we move to what we have today what we call the virtual data center virtual style subscription which is you purchase it for two sockets at a time you can stack them to use it for four socket boxes and they still include an unlimited number of virtual machines so if you're a customer and you're running you know one of the supportive hypervisors and you have greater than five VMs on a hypervisor which is trivial to do with today's modern hypervisors more often than not you're going to get however there are some cases where you do want a subscription that is for a virtual machine but you don't necessarily have a ton of them on that hypervisor so we have what we call convertible subscriptions you'll also hear them call either or subscriptions which will cover either a two socket system or two virtual machines or cloud instances right and those subscriptions are portable they can be used on premise and in the public cloud so that's really the major difference between the two so if we go back to the five things that make up a Red Hat subscription the thing that changes isn't the content isn't the term just how much of it do you get physical subscriptions just cover a physical system whereas the virtual subscriptions may cover either a virtual machine or a group of virtual machines co-located on a singular hypervisor there are a whole bunch of other really weird wacky permutations of those right like as an example our current skew catalog like the list of subscriptions we actively will honor that number anybody want to guess since we're focusing on that it's gotta be like not that high we're not that crazy but the numbers north of about 30,000 right 30,000 currently honored subscriptions oh sorry you said like skews you can acquire no skews that at least one customer has some of them may have been end of sale but because of contracts we sometimes allow customers to renew I thought you meant that ever existed so ever existed is probably about 50,000 so there's a huge amount of permutations of Red Hat subscriptions out there and again if you think about it like I'll use an example so let's say I want to have just like a two socket rail subscription alright well two socket rail subscription probably needs to come in premium standard self support so that's times three already then I need a one year version, a two year version a three year version, a four year version a five year version right okay I need to offer some to be sold and supported by Red Hat some to be sold and supported by the OEMs double that number right so you can see like just bringing a singular subscription to the market, a single offering to the market will sometimes lead to 50, 60, 100 new skews being created right and that complexity has historically matriculated through all of the tooling all the way down to the poor operator who's like do I attach a RH 003 or RH 004 right again that's why it's complex it's complex because as we change those five things that make up a subscription it makes the permutations of subscriptions we have to create my job is to insulate the operator from all of that madness because it's madness like I'm not even going to try to defend it it's madness right so for me I want to make it so that log into a tool like subscription watch and be able to see the types of RH you're using like a subscription watch we will visualize the difference between RH running on a physical system versus a number of virtual machines that are on a hypervisor like we will show you that differently because it does matter it doesn't matter from like what repos do I access they all are RH, you have access to RH repos doesn't matter if that aspect but it does matter at the end of the year we got to go buy a thing from Red Hat and we need to understand how many in column A and how many in column B do we need so we do represent them very differently in subscription watch interesting thank you for the answer I could go take that snippet and now share it with hundreds of people so thank you very much for that I was thinking about like how far back in red hat history that I wanted to go with subscription management but it's evolved and again I think it's something that if you understand the whole story of how we got to where we're at today it makes a bit more sense like in the past when people were just buying physical systems subscription management was easy virtualization came along and honestly complicated a lot of the things around subscription management and we made attempts over the years to try to bring some sanity to the very dynamic road of virtualization and understanding what people are using and the tools kind of became complex in the process it became complex by design it became complex almost as a side effect but they became complex enough that they were impeding people from using the things that they paid for that's bad my dad used to always say if someone wants to give you their money you take their money before they change their mind right it became very difficult for our paying customers and even like when I say paying customers you're paying customer you might not be paying me in cash but you're paying me in time you're paying me in adoption you're paying me in all those other things that still matter to red hat so if our tools are providing friction to you that's bad so we now have to evolve the tools to solve the goal of helping people understand what they're using, where they're using it how much of it they're using while also not getting in their way right we want to be able to do both of those things and do it in such a manner to where you know most people would be okay with it well I think the other thing too that people forget about with subscription manager right is that red hat was actually a very early adopter of the subscription concept for software and as a result they built a very early implementation and like all legacy software the reason we call it legacy software even if it's six weeks old is because for some reason we don't you know the architecture of the design of it whatever is hard to adapt to the changes in business or technology or whatever it is that you need to adapt it to and subscription manager is going to suffer from that but it also suffers from a secondary type of legacy is that there's a whole mess of business processes that go around it right so as a result you can't it's not just evolving the software over time but it's also evolving the business processes and honoring you know you're talking about five-year SKUs you know I don't even know there might be longer ones I don't even know so that you have to honor all those old ones in the new software as well so you can't just rip and replace your subscription management like you could like you could actually do with like a web server right which you you know if you decide you want to get away from you know Apache and move to Nginx that's you know a lot of ways a lot easier to do because you don't have to evolve business processes around it so I think that you know I think people forget subscription manager is you know we were talking about this before the show it's a bit of a bad rap because you have all this stuff around the piece of software that impacts how the software can function and so when you see a UI problem or whatever in using subscription manager there may be a reason for it it may not just be that you know there's you know a bad software design or something and so I just wanted to kind of bring up that point is that and I think especially the part about you know Red Hat being a relatively early adopter of that product type you know at all yeah I mean my team we spend a lot of time working with the the back office people who bring the offerings to market right and we help them through that process right because like our front end and back end weren't connected for a while so there were scenarios where like they there were people who would build offerings that just like fundamentally didn't work with our subscription tools right and we didn't have you know the processes and the checks and balances in place to ensure that so now that's what I mean like my team like in the history of Red Hat so 20 plus year old company right my team's been around for two right and in those two years you know we've taken a an advisory level approach to a lot of the back office functions at Red Hat like hey this is how this is going to interact with you know the tooling that the end user uses or the thing that you think that you want to sell we can't count so maybe we need to build a tool to count it right because that's because like the business is going to evolve right like today Red Hat sells most of their stuff through you know yearly subscriptions but that isn't universally true because I can go through the various cloud providers and purchase Red Hat stuff by the hour right or you know business models may change to something else in the future and we have to make sure that we have the tooling and stuff in place so it is kind of this end-to-end experience that we're really looking at from the from the point where you know some VPs like I want to sell something to the point where you know I have to express to you know the person who bought the thing how many of the thing are they using like that's that's an entire like life cycle that we now look at holistically whereas in the past we looked at it very separately like SKUs were done over here and product and engineering was done over here and you know reporting was done we pushed that down to sales sales figured it out and that was how things were done and that's you know that's not something that's going to be scalable so now like we're working with you know the OpenShift BU I mean I think we were basically indentured to them all the time that's just because they're offering all kinds of these stuff that needs to be counted so we work with them very heavily to understand like here's how this thing is going to go to market here's how it's packaged here's how it's sold here's how it's metric here's how it's metered so that you know on day zero when that new product goes out of the door we want to be able to say yes mr. customer it's super easy to set up and use and you'll be able to understand how much of it you're using on day one right and that's that's that's the goal and we're playing a little bit of catch up right we've only been around for two years we got a whole portfolio to catch up on but that's our goal right you buy a red hat product you should be able to instantiate that red hat product without friction be able to see how much of that red hat product you're using and be able to see that over time and if I could do that along with the rest of the product managers and business analysts on my team and we've had a home run and honestly that you'll probably never see me on this call again because I won't exist people will be like rich who but that's that's my goal well and I don't I don't think you should gloss over the fact of the having the kind of bird's eye view of all that that you mentioned right so it's not only frictionless access and getting it connected and getting it engaged and that stuff but it's also that bird's eye view of what am I using is also hugely important and difficult to to present we have we have customers and I mean I've worked with some red hats biggest customers where just getting the count of things that there are running is a multi month process oh yeah right yeah late and I'm just understanding thinking like it's something that has to be done yeah but does it got to take months I think like I'm consulting to large fortune 500 companies I spent and was paid many many dollars to just identify all the projects they had going on and put them into some sort of portfolio much less the systems they were running at so so I mean it's it's a real it's a real challenge right so what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to make it so that one shorten that amount of time right if I can make that as close to real time as possible it's better one because it helps out our sales organization yes we have one of those I have to care about them but it also helps out the customer right because at some point some process admin is going to be told go count the things right and that's really so in addition to patch any servers building these servers dealing with the compliance people down my neck I also need to go grab inventory oh okay great that's going to suck right so I could take out that one particular pain point which is a particularly large one for some of our biggest customers that's that's huge yeah totally which probably shut the show down I've got lights dying everything their batteries have been drained yeah so it's time to wrap it up it's a good show and that happens right right Gordon did you have any closing comments or thoughts that you wanted just in 30 seconds or less just to reiterate what I said which is look guys if you're interested in level up OpenShift subscriptions you've got five active rail subs or more and it is five and I'll check and no OpenShift you know go to that landing page that we talked about I think Chris you probably posted it there you go thank you and at the same time RHCSAs take advantage of those offers we talked about so yeah that's anything we can do on that front if you have any questions on this there is actually an external alias I can give you guys it's level up at redhat.com so feel free to email that if you have questions on any of this and if you want to make comments on subscription manager there is bugzilla.redhat.com or what's the best way to give feedback on subscription manager Rich so if you had a legit bug just open up a legit bug my team gets some if you have feedback that's not necessarily bug related email me directly I'm Rich at redhat.com took me ten years to get that one yes had to wait for a guy to leave to get that one but yeah I'm Rich at redhat.com email me directly and I'll probably loop in other people on our team you know I'm very enthused to get field feedback because it does very much shape our tooling and shapes kind of our opinion on where we want to go so yeah if you got a bug just open up a little classic bug and bugzilla but if it's other feedback just email me and we'll go from there awesome thanks and Chris last question just came in from the detective Konankudo does that mean folks using individual rel developer for prod subs can we get free to shift to I had that same exact thought when you said five production subs so now we're offering with the developer sub 16 production subs are five of those sufficient to qualify you for that's a great question I think there's a service that runs ultimately in the background if it's I think the service states it has to be I don't know wow email levelupatredhats.com I can I can try to look into that for you we will try to bring the results of that question back to the show in the future I did want to give a little bit of a shout out for our next show which is speaking of subs is Chris and I will be talking about developer sandbox which is a way that you can get free access to an open shift instance where you can run a bunch of stuff and so we're going to play around with that probably complain about some of the things that aren't there yet that we want but you know who knows we may be able to have a guest from the team we're not sure if we've lined that up or not we'll definitely be talking about developer sandbox we just don't know if we're going to have a guest as well so that's next time so same that channel same that place same that location I can't and as always folks if we didn't get to your question feel free to email me at cshortatredhat.com or Langdon at Red Hat or have us up on Twitter I'm at Chris Short with two S's that is Langdon with a 1 as opposed to an L on Twitter and Tilmore doesn't use Twitter at all sign uncle side if you want to like dive into anything that Rich has said today right like he might just tell you like ooh send me an email but you know it could be that complex we can't handle it on Twitter so yeah just if you need to reach out and didn't get your question answered I apologize that's my fault email us we can get it answered so thank you all for joining us today Rich thank you so much for joining us really appreciate your help Gordon thank you as well talking about all the fun things that the level of power is bringing to our wonderful customer base and until next time folks we'll see you and stay safe out there everybody well see ya